I've read the past forums on DSM installs, but I think my question falls somewhere between.
What I'm working with:
- Eclipse 4422 casette player (for language tape use) as my main unit (the eq controls built in (fade, bas treble, etc) only affect the head unit output) It has 35w x 4 output
- controlling a trunk mounted Eclipse 6 disc changer.
- Eclipse 3640 240 watt 4/3/2 amp
- Eclipse 2010 6 channel eq with switcher.
- 6 eclipse speakers.

My installer has it so that I push the switch on the eq to go between head unit OR the Rio. With head unit, all 6 speakers work. WIth the Rio switched, only the door and rear speakers work. This sucks - on a convertible, with the top down, I really need the dash speakers to get good sound. And it sucks period - the Rio is my favorite part of the system and I can only hear it through 4 speakers.

Suggestions? What is the proper hookup? I'll send your responses (laughter edited if you like) right to the installer who swore up and down that this couldn't be done - but I know you guys know how to do it. And I'll tell him "told you so" from you. (another amp is a reasonable option if you need to include that in the solution)

Also, what if I wanted to drive one or two subs? (maybe hidden behind the rear seat) What would the proper hook-up be then? (another amp is an option of course)

Any help is appreciated. You guys rock. One loyal member is upgrading me to another 30 gigs as we speak, one week after I asked.

Best Always,

Chris

All I can say is... The CD changer and cassette are superfluous. Trust me, you don't need them.

You want the empeg driving six speakers? Plug it straight into a 6-channel amp and get the complicated switching system out of there.

The CD changer and cassette are superfluous. Trust me, you don't need them.

Are you voluneering to convert all of his language cassettes to mp3?

What a jolly good chap!

Besides the language cassettes, the head unit is a must as my Rio has no tuner modulator (and they're not exactly the easiest things to come by)

Also, the CD changer is a must. Scenario: I pick up someone for a date:
Her: "hey I just got a great cd, let's listen to it on the way to..."
Me: "Um...if you let me take it home, rip it to mp3, and upload it to my Rio, we'll be jamming in about 1.5 hours."

Don't laugh, it's happened. With anyone who comes along and brings a cd they want to check out. Rio's rule - for the owner. Though awesome - they're not always practical.

And the changer is flush mounted where the top folds down into, so all you see in the trunk is the sliding door. It's not like I'm losing space with it.

Thanks for the ideas though...at least we have a start.

Also, the CD changer is a must. Scenario: I pick up someone for a date:
Her: "hey I just got a great cd, let's listen to it on the way to..."

That's why I have the portable CD player in the glove box, which takes ten seconds to plug into the aux-in on the empeg and the cigarette lighter. It gathers dust most of the time.

Yeah, that's not TOO ghetto. Cd player in the glove box. "Can you hold onto this or balance it on your lap so we can listen to the cd?...it won't skip TOO much, and hopefully I won't snag the lighter cord while shifting the 5 speed. Oops, you wanted to switch cd's? Well, just throw that other one in the back and switch away."

Besides the fact that storage is EXTREMELY limited in a Spyder (hence not keeping a cd player and lighter plug in the glovebox), sometimes I don't rip my cd's to the Rio for weeks.

And to top it all off, we're arguing a moot point. The changer being there affects nothing. The problem is getting both units to work all 6 speakers (plus 1 sub hopefully) With another amp if necessary. I know this installer is dead wrong and that it can't be that complex.

Thanks for the input thus far guys/gals. Keep it coming.

Also, my empeg has no aux input on the front. It's flush mounted in the din/dash. Where would I plug this in anyway? Anyway, the portable cd thing is not gonna happen.

Okay, you've made your point.

Now... how to get the 6-channel thing working...

We don't know how your installer has wired it, so we don't know why the dash speakers aren't working. You don't have a diagram or anything do you?

F*&K however this guy has it done...who cares. It's wrong. I can't take them out to look. Especially the empeg sled. It's in there for good. I'm not going to tell him to correct it, I'm going to tell him to take it all out and do it all over, right this time, free, with the instructions you guys have the brains to figure out. (since he doesn't) And then the whole post will laugh together and rejoice in my fully functional install!

I originally listed the model #'s and input availability & amp (4/3/2) so we could figure out how to do it the right way.

Given that, (see top post) whatcha think? Thanks.

- Chris

Well, Eclipse's web site has no information on a 4422, a 3640, or a 2010, so it's pretty hard to figure out how you might hook it up at all, much less correctly.

One would assume that the amplifier in some way powers all six speakers, but you say it's a 4/3/2 amp, so it seems like there must be multiple speakers attached to individual amp outputs. So that would sound like the empeg is not attached to some of the amp's inputs.

Does the fader on the empeg work? How about the balance?

Fader on the Empeg has to be jacked to "rear" 100% to get sound from the door/rear speakers.

Thanks for checking the Eclipse website, and sorry that my couple years old stuff isn't listed. The head unit has 4 output channels - so I think he uses 2 of those to drive the dash speakers and the amp to drive the other 4 speakers when the EQ is switched to the head unit position. (button "out") It has the same hook-ups as the one now called the 4441 on their website.

The EQ is a 6 band (current model # on eclipse website is 21010 - that's what I have) that has 4 output rca jacks (rear r & l and front r & l), a sub mono, a full mono, and 4 input rca jacks labeled "sys A r & L" and "sys B" r and l.
When switched to Rio mode, (button "in"- sys B) I think the amp then powers the door and rear speakers, (using all 4 channels) with nothing to power the dash.

I've been thinking about it, how does this sound:?
- use the 4/3/2 amp I already have to constandly drive the 2 rear speakers and 1 or 2 subs.
- install another 4 channel amp to constantly drive the dash and door (with adjustments on the gain so as not to blow them out)

Can the EQ w/ sys A/B switch be hooked up to ensure that regardless of which source mode I'm switched to (Rio or HU) both amps stay on and all speakers work?

- and, can this be done w/o conflict, distortion, feedback, etc.?

I just came up with this, and I don't know s**t about car stereo installs, it just seemed like a logical solution.

What do you guys/gals think?

- Chris

So your EQ is what's being used to switch between the two inputs, right? And each of the inputs has two RCA cables, right? One from the Eclipse head unit and one from the empeg.

It sounds to me that if the Eclipse is pushing all six speakers in this config, then the empeg ought to be able to, as well, assuming that the EQ switch is (a) being used as intended, and (b) not broken.

Can you swap the units so that the empeg is input A and the Eclipse is input B? That way, we can see where the problem is by seeing which speakers are active for each of the components after the switch.

From what I can tell from your description, the head unit is directly supplying the amplification for the dash speakers, and there's no separate amp hooked to the dash speakers at all.

Because the empeg is somehow using the EQ as the switcher, instead of using some sort of aux-input on the head unit, and the EQ doesn't drive the dash speakers (not sure but that's what your description sounds like), then that's why the empeg doesn't drive the dash speakers.

Sounds like this whole thing is wired kind of rube-goldberg instead of properly routed with line-in and line-out connections. It's no surprise that you're having odd problems with it.

If it were me, here's how I'd do it, from scratch:

- I'd make sure to somehow have an external amp driving all six speakers, instead of just the back four. Even if it means purchasing a whole new amp.
- I'd get rid of the equalizer completely.
- I'd run the head unit into the empeg's aux-input. Either directly, if it had line-outs, or through a linelevel converter if it didn't.
- I'd connect the empeg to the external amps using all of its line-outs, properly.

After this is done, the empeg becomes the "master" and the head unit becomes its aux input, and you select the source from the empeg's front panel. Note that the empeg's 20-band parametric digital equalizer becomes the system equalizer now, which is why you don't need that original 6-band EQ any more.

You could also run both units into a line-level switcher if you liked. More details here.

The (simpler) alternative - does your existing HU have 4V Line In capability?
Put the empeg's front channels though that and delogate the speaker driving to the existing system.

The (simpler) alternative - does your existing HU have 4V Line In capability?

I'm assuming it doesn't, or else it would have been hooked up that way to begin with. I seem to recall he said it was a factory system, and most factory systems don't have line-ins.

One thing the installer may not have thought of is to hijack the CD-changer inputs and route the empeg in through those "as if" they were a line-in. Sometimes that can work with the right trickery. So that's another option.

My HU now is an Eclipse (not the car, the car audio), so it's not factory. It has:
3 Pairs of RCA Pre-Amp Outputs
Non-Fading RCA Pre-Out Terminals for Subwoofer
2-Channel Selectable (IN/OUT) RCA Terminals for DSP Loop

But HU doesn't have aux line in. If I buy one that has all the same outputs/terminals as above AND AUX IN, can I listen to all 6 speakers? (given I am using a 4/3/2 channel amp) through both the Rio and the HU? I work in the ghetto, so driving to work I leave the Rio at home (see why I need the cd changer now?) and would still want full functionality of the HU (6 speaker sound & cd changer control)

How does this work if I want to drive a sub with the HU and Empeg too?

I think progress is being made. It sounds like no matter what, I can ditch the additional eq. Could be a situation of E-bay here I come, 1 casette deck and 1 eq for sale.

What do you all think now that I've provided some hopefully more helpful specs/alternatives?

Thanks. - Chris

My HU now is an Eclipse (not the car, the car audio), so it's not factory.

Ah, I see. I assumed that since you were talking about a Mitsubishi car, and said the stereo was an Eclipse... well, you see where I had been confused.

It sounds like no matter what, I can ditch the additional eq.

Not if you want to leave the empeg at home. You said you work in the ghetto, so if you can't bring the empeg into work with you, I would understand the need to leave the empeg at home and would agree with doing it that way.

I think our lack of understanding about the problem stems from not knowing what the input/outputs of that external equalizer are, and therefore not understanding how it's hooked to the amp and why pressing its button causes two of the speakers to stop working. It would be nice if we could get more details on that.

You said the head unit has three pairs of RCA preamp outputs. Are all three pairs connected to the equalizer? You've also said you have a 4/3/2 amp. I assume that means it's a four-channel amp with the capability of either pair of outputs to be bridged mono (for a 2+sub configuration or a more powerful 2-channel configuration). So if it's a four-channel amp, how are six speakers getting driven off of it? What is the wiring scheme actually like?

Before we can answer your connection questions, we really need to know how things are hooked up right now and what the possible hookups to the equalizer are.

I think that the EQ can be ditched. Regardless of the hook-ups, (and I'm not going to dismantle it to see what they are), it's not necessary.

Because he has the 4 channel amp sending the Rio sound (since it is unpowered), to 4 speakers, the system must switch between "amp" and "non-amp" - the HU (self powered) is powering all 6 speakers (with all those rca jacks, I'm sure it can) when the rio is gone, or simply when the EQ is switched.

If I buy a HU with AUX-IN, I can plug the Rio into it, and use the HU rca out jacks to two amps, powering the front and rear speakers and a sub.

With the Rio plugged into the AUX-IN, all speakers should be powered, regardless of which unit is the source - no? Or do I need to use the Rio out jacks to it's own amp? I think that will be the final question. And getting 6 speaker/1 sub sound from each of them is the challenge, but getting clearer...

And either way, the eq is no longer a necessary evil. Switching sources and losing speakers. What a getto set-up I have now. I can't wait to fix this.

And I can see where the "eclipse" confusion came from - I am one confusing fella sometimes. Not intentionally, I assure you.

You could also use a four-channel switcher (I linked to information on that earlier in the thread) so that either the eclipse or the empeg can power the amp.

The trick is figuring out how to drive six speakers with a four-channel amp.

So is it true that with the empeg plugged into the HU's AUX-IN, it still needs its rca outs to go to speakers? Shouldn't that now be routed through the HU? Or is it a matter of the system not knowing which source is active, hence the need for a switcher?

And am I also correct in that the empeg only has enough out jacks to power 4 speakers with an amp? If that's true, what the hell were they thinking? Or are there enough outs to route to 2 amps, and hence up to 8 speakers (assuming 2 4 channels)?

I have no idea how all this s**t works, as you can tell. To need amps hooked to the HU and the empeg just to achieve equal speaker output for each seems overkill. Maybe that switcher is indeed the key.

With the empegs RCA out plugged into the other HUs AUX in, the other HUs RCA outs need to go the amps. To listen to the empeg you must also turn on the other HU and set it to use AUX in as source.

With a switcher you avoid the need for the other unit to be on. And it may enhance quality if the circuitry in the other HU isn't as good as the empeg.
You run the RCAs from both the HU and the empeg to it, and then connect the outputs of teh switcher to the amp. Turn on the HU - HU is connected through teh switcher; turn on the empeg instead and it gets connected through the switcher.

The empeg has 4 RCA outputs: front left and right and rear left and right.

If you want to drive more speakers you can either split say the rear outputs with Y-connectors. One branch would go to an amp/channels powering rear speakers and the other branch to for instance a sub amp.
Or the front outputs could be split to go to different channels powering door speakers and the dash speakers...

Two or more speakers can also be combined (in series or parallell) on a single amp output - the problem there is that you can't easily tweak the power level between the speakers.

/Michael