#14306 - 17/08/2000 08:34
digital input / cd changer controls
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journeyman
Registered: 17/08/2000
Posts: 70
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i would like to be able to control a changer with the empeg... there are sure to be times when i would not get around to ripping a cd or when i just got a brand new cd or borrowed one from a buddy when i would very much want to be able to play a real live cd... another example, which is important to some that would enjoy an empeg, is IASCA competition (which for the most part requires the media to be an actual compact disc) or any other other time when compromising sound quality is not acceptable...
usually i much prefer an in-dash cd player to a "remote-mounted" changer unit, but it seems to me that adding a cd changer is a much more practical option for most folks (myself included) than adding a second head unit and using the aux inputs, at least in the instance of the empeg...
i would also like to see digital inputs implemented so that i could take advantage of the (is it) 18 bit dacs of the empeg instead of the dual 1 bits of most changers, and perhaps the dsp functions, etc... if i were to use a changer equipped with digital outs (as is my older model clarion 18 disc changer)
it would take less effort on the part of developers for me to just use a changer with rca outputs and a wired remote, but then there is the nuisance of the added remote, the compromise of using the dual 1 bit dacs, and the aux inputs that i would be using for an in car entertainment/video system would be occupied...
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sancho
greedy
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#14307 - 17/08/2000 09:33
Re: digital input / cd changer controls
[Re: sancho]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I would like to be able to control a changer with the empeg...
Aren't most CD changer inputs proprietary? i.e., if you buy a Sony changer, you can only use a Sony head unit to control it? If this is true, how would the Empeg folks be able to make generic changer controller?
That said, Empeg has already mentioned an OEM project they did a while back which had a trunk-mounted Empeg which behaved like a CD changer and was controlled like one from a factory dash unit. So they do have a little experience with CD changer controls.
I would also like to see digital inputs implemented so that i could take advantage of the (is it) 18 bit dacs of the empeg instead of the dual 1 bits of most changers, and perhaps the dsp functions, etc...
Well, you don't need digital inputs to be able to take advantage of the Empeg's DSP. All of the DSP functions currently work with its Aux-in and its tuner. The DAC doesn't do much besides tone control, loudness, and equalization.
Also, you seem to be implying that a "1 bit dac" is somehow inferior to an "18 bit dac" just because the number is larger. I'm a little fuzzy on the technology, but as I understand it, you're comparing apples and oranges here- the 1-bit dac describes a technology that's used to extract the data from an audio CD and wouldn't apply to any sort of digital connection between a CD changer and another unit. Although the name makes it sound somehow antiquated, the 1-bit dac technology is (as I understand it) actually very advanced. I know that there's some folks on this BBS who've actually worked on this technology, and I know that there are dissertations on the web which describe its implementation. Does anyone want to hop in here and provide proper explanations or links?
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Tony Fabris
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#14308 - 17/08/2000 10:15
Re: digital input / cd changer controls
[Re: tfabris]
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journeyman
Registered: 17/08/2000
Posts: 70
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Aren't most CD changer inputs proprietary? i.e., if you buy a Sony changer, you can only use a Sony head unit to control it? If this is true, how would the Empeg folks be able to make generic changer controller?
i'm not asking for a generic controller specifically... the empeg boys would most likely have to pick a changer they were comfortable working with and offer controls for it... much as some companies offer oem to aftermarket adaptors for some changers (i/e honda stock radio to alpine changer)
i am far from being a programmer, but i assume the principals involved in this would indeed be similar to the oem to empeg work they have already done...
my understanding of d/a convertor technology is rudimentary at best... so i will not argue with the assertion that you have made... perhaps an extra aux in would be easier to implement than digital in... i really have no idea... but, does it really sound like a BAD idea?
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sancho
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#14309 - 17/08/2000 17:34
Re: digital input / cd changer controls
[Re: sancho]
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old hand
Registered: 12/01/2000
Posts: 1079
Loc: Dallas, TX
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I think its too late to add an additional aux in or digital in to the MK2. It would have to be redesigned for that to happen. I don't see the point of allowing the empeg to control a cd changer when you can have all you music on the empeg. If you want to have quality sound for competition, the empeg will eventually be able to play wav files-which are the same as cd quality.
Sean
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#14310 - 17/08/2000 18:00
Re: digital input / cd changer controls
[Re: Terminator]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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If you want to have quality sound for competition, the empeg will eventually be able to play wav files-which are the same as cd quality.
Except, as Doug Burnside (who competes in these competitions) pointed out, you have to use the judge's CD, not your own CD or some other files. This is understandable, since it would be possible to cheat if you didn't.
The empeg, although designed as a stand alone product, has perfectly good support for chaining in with other audio products via its AUX input, which is why some owners are choosing to integrate it with their existing CD players. Honestly, I don't see a problem with its current inputs and outputs.
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Tony Fabris
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#14311 - 18/08/2000 08:44
Re: digital input / cd changer controls
[Re: tfabris]
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enthusiast
Registered: 22/03/2000
Posts: 217
Loc: West Midlands, England
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In reply to:
This is understandable, since it would be possible to cheat if you didn't.
I may be missing the point here, but surely the aim is to have the best sounding equipment. How is it possible to cheat?
What sort of thing would be counted as cheating in a 'normal' (i.e. from CD) competition?
Nick.
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18Gb blue - s/n 080000299 (original queue position 8724)
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18GB red s/n 080000299
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#14312 - 18/08/2000 08:58
Re: digital input / cd changer controls
[Re: debauch]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I may be missing the point here, but surely the aim is to have the best sounding equipment. How is it possible to cheat?
The best sounding equipment compared to the other cars in the competition.
Doug can probably give more detail here, but here's how I understand it.
Since the judges want to compare apples to apples, they need a baseline reference- a known set of audio tracks- on which to judge. The competitions don't just use any old CD, they use a specific judging CD. Until Doug told us otherwise, I thought that competitors were allowed to use their own copy of that CD if they wanted. They're not.
Being able to use your own copy of the CD would allow you to (in advance) copy the tracks and alter the wave data so that it did better in certain parts of the competition. You would know what characteristics the judges were looking for on each track, so you could theoretically alter the tracks themselves to enhance those characteristics. Then you could burn a new copy with the altered tracks on it and use that in the competition.
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Tony Fabris
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#14313 - 18/08/2000 12:47
Re: digital input / cd changer controls
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Yeah.... what Tony said! (I had planned on doing exactly that, too!) See my post here for a possible way to compete with the empeg... tanstaafl. "There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#14314 - 18/08/2000 13:32
Re: digital input / cd changer controls
[Re: tfabris]
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journeyman
Registered: 17/08/2000
Posts: 70
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I don't see the point of allowing the empeg to control a cd changer when you can have all you music on the empeg. If you want to have quality sound for competition, the empeg will eventually be able to play wav files-which are the same as cd quality.
you neglect to mention that to get a wav file onto an empeg i have to rip it from a cd and then load it from my computer to the empeg... which takes time... say, i'm on the road or i'm having computer problems... and i have some new cd's... there are just times when i will want to be able to play a cd... it's going to happen... and i would find it very practical and useful to be able to control a changer with the empeg, instead of mounting a seperate head... i don't have room in my dash for a second head... so i am looking at having to remote mount a single cd slot... and then there are the issues of controlling this unit... and every head i have laying around has high voltage outs which may not work very well with the empegs 1 volt input(i happen to have a few, but most people do NOT)... i don't think i am wrong to wish for this... i think it would make a very convenient solution for cd playback... much more so than adding a cd transport and such to an empeg as has been discussed here many times...
perhaps we could get someone from empeg involved in this thread and stop trivializing my motives and needs...
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sancho
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#14315 - 18/08/2000 13:44
Re: digital input / cd changer controls
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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journeyman
Registered: 17/08/2000
Posts: 70
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See my post here for a possible way to compete with the empeg...
i suppose i should make my intent a bit more clear...
i could use the empeg AS IS with a changer... there are many on the market with wired remotes and rca output that will work fine with the empeg's aux in...
the changer controls would be for convenience sake, and also would probably attract buyers in a market where every head is expected to control a changer... whether it be a tape deck, a cd head or merely a tuner or preamp...
the digital in would be helpful in the specific case of my clarion changer which is equipped with digital outputs and what i feel to be inferior d/a convertors to the empegs... this would also keep the aux in free for the audio output of the video system i intend to install...
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sancho
any input from the empeg boys or a developer who might be able to tackle this project would be a help...
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#14316 - 18/08/2000 13:50
Re: digital input / cd changer controls
[Re: sancho]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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say, i'm on the road or i'm having computer problems... and i have some new cd's... there are just times when i will want to be able to play a cd... Yes, and the Empeg perfectly supports connecting to a CD player. Even a CD changer. It has perfectly good line-level inputs and outputs, so you can choose which order the components are connected. Many empeg owners do precisely this, combining the Empeg with a CD player so that they get the best of both worlds. The only thing the Empeg doesn't do is offer CD changer controls because those are proprietary. Although I have to tell you, now that I actually own the Empeg, I don't miss the CD player at all. I'm perfectly happy with MP3s only. ___________
Tony Fabris
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#14317 - 18/08/2000 13:57
Re: digital input / cd changer controls
[Re: tfabris]
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journeyman
Registered: 17/08/2000
Posts: 70
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Although I have to tell you, now that I actually own the Empeg, I don't miss the CD player at all. I'm perfectly happy with MP3s only.
some of us aren't so easily satisfied, apparently...
different strokes for different folks, ya know...
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sancho
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#14318 - 18/08/2000 14:47
Re: digital input / cd changer controls
[Re: sancho]
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enthusiast
Registered: 03/09/1999
Posts: 206
Loc: Sayreville, New Jersey USA
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Sancho, I think Tony missed the piece where you said: In reply to:
it would take less effort on the part of developers for me to just use a changer with rca outputs and a wired remote, but then there is the nuisance of the added remote, the compromise of using the dual 1 bit dacs, and the aux inputs that i would be using for an in car entertainment/video system would be occupied...
You nailed a couple of points there that definitely can't be done using a second head unit. First, you don't want another head unit or remote or any sort of controller. Second, you're trying to keep the aux free for something else. Although I'm not clear on what you'd be using the aux for in an entertainment/video system, I do understand that you want to keep it free for something else. You wouldn't be able to do that if you had to hook something up to the aux, obviously.
I do have an idea, though. To get around the second controller issue, what about picking up a CD unit that uses an IR remote control compatible with the Empeg's, like Kenwood, hehe. You could hide just the eye somewhere away from the Empeg's and control both by just aiming it at a different area of the car. IR is very direct, so it shouldn't be too difficult to put the eye off to the side where the Empeg wouldn't pick it up. I do that at home with my two VCR's, which are right on top of each other. I just have to aim the remote at an extreme angle, toward the floor, so the top one doesn't pick it up. The other option is to try and find a small, programmable remote that can handle two different types of remotes and program it each unit. You could pick up a home entertainment center remote that'd control your Empeg, your CD unit, your entertainment/video equipment in your car, as well as in you home! One remote for everything. They're usually kinda big, though. Well... it's an option. 
George
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George
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#14319 - 18/08/2000 17:27
Re: digital input / cd changer controls
[Re: sancho]
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veteran
Registered: 16/06/1999
Posts: 1222
Loc: San Francisco, CA
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...I've had a cd player in my car eversince I've had an empeg, and I dont' think I've used it a single time...
-mark
...proud to have owned one of the first Mark I units
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#14320 - 18/08/2000 18:19
Re: digital input / cd changer controls
[Re: sancho]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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Although we have an (unused) SPDIF output on the board, I'm not aware of there being an input. Either way, you're talking about a major hardware revision, and we only just finished Mk.2 (which is actually Rev.7).
A much more likely solution is to utilise the Aux line inputs and the serial port in conjunction with an adapter box. We know how to talk to (some) CD changers because we've already done it for an OEM (albeit the other way around) however there would be some considerable development overhead and we're pretty much tied up for the foreseeable future.
Controlling an autochanger also conflicts with our marketing approach, although I think it would be a reasonably worthwhile future tick-list feature. Speaking personally, the only time I miss a CD head is on the drive home from the music store after getting some new discs!
Rob
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#14321 - 18/08/2000 19:46
Re: digital input / cd changer controls
[Re: sancho]
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old hand
Registered: 12/01/2000
Posts: 1079
Loc: Dallas, TX
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Which cd changer would you like to control? Do they all use a standard control interface?
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#14322 - 20/08/2000 16:13
Re: digital input / cd changer controls
[Re: rob]
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member
Registered: 08/05/2000
Posts: 135
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In reply to:
Speaking personally, the only time I miss a CD head is on the drive home from the music store after getting some new discs!
That's when you pull the crappy discman out of the glove box, assuming you aren't using line-in for something else. Even then, you can maybe splice two things into the line in.
I plan on having a connection always attached to line in and have it wired to the point where I can connect my existing crappy portable cd-player when I need it.
Kureg
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#14323 - 20/08/2000 16:38
Re: digital input / cd changer controls
[Re: Kureg]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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I plan on having a connection always attached to line in and have it wired to the point where I can connect my existing crappy portable cd-player when I need it.My thoughts exactly. See here"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#14324 - 21/08/2000 02:49
Re: digital input / cd changer controls
[Re: rob]
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journeyman
Registered: 17/05/2000
Posts: 92
Loc: 's-Hertogenbosch; the Netherla...
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> Although we have an (unused) SPDIF output on the board
A proper SDPIF out?? Any additonal hardware needed to bring it to the outside (transformer? buffer?).
I'd be interested when using the EMPEG at home (which I'll do a lot), as I'm pretty sure that my digital processor's D/A converters and associated circuitry are superior to those of the EMPEG (No doubt they're excellent for the purpose, but the processor does have audio high-end aspirations).
Does physically adding a socket (RCA) on the back conflict with the sled? Any chance of Empeg doing this as a one-off (at a charge, of course), so I'd not void my warrantee and now it'd be done properly?
Thanks,
Cas
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#14325 - 21/08/2000 03:33
Re: digital input / cd changer controls
[Re: Cas_O]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
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It's not actually SPDIF, it's I2S. This can be converted into SPDIF but requires a chip & some other bits & pieces, so it's not just a connection job.
Hugo
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#14326 - 24/08/2000 15:03
Re: digital input / cd changer controls
[Re: sancho]
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journeyman
Registered: 13/08/2000
Posts: 82
Loc: Near Arnhem, Netherlands
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I'd like to hook up my 10CD sony changer directly also. The way I do it now is that my sony's in the trunk (with the changer) and I extended the "joystick" control. With that I can change the tracks/CD's. And the head unit goes into the EMPEG's AUX. My guess is that it can be done with the serial port (for info on sony unilink protocol look here: http:// www.eriksen.no/unilink/ ) but this requires some real electronics (microcontroller) geeks I'm afraid. Maybe it's even possible to "abuse" the MK2 tuner connector to control a changer (this will probably start a flame) W@LLY (mk1-158/mk2-380)
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Reg:1934/Mk1:158-Blue(sold)/Mk2:380-Amber(sold)/Mk2a:3273-Blue
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#14327 - 10/09/2000 00:16
Re: digital input / cd changer controls
[Re: rob]
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enthusiast
Registered: 30/09/1999
Posts: 252
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What is actually required for the Empeg to control a changer of some sort?
I would think it would be as simple as a physical connectio to the changer. By taking the din cable from a changer and splicing out the audio leads to a set of RCA's. We connect those to the AUX in on the Empeg. Now take the wire required for power and hook them up accordingly. The next thing is to attach the serial lines to the Empeg via the serial port. At this point all physical connections have been made.
Next we need a software patch in the kernel. We need for the Empeg to take IR commands and send them via serial to the changer when in AUX mode.
Basically all changers no matter what brand use some sort of serial interface. We need you guys at Empeg or some developer to pick a changer and make the software patch.
Empeg's biggest feature, over being able to play endless hours of music, is that the system, being upgradable and expandable via all the ports, can be the most versitile system on the market. Not to run down the Empeg but, with Kenwood and other makers now putting MP3 reading into some decks, that cost much less than Empeg, the Empeg's storage isn't it's best feature. LEt's make the Empeg do everything possible.
I don't want to just ramble on here about this, I want to help if no one want's to provide us with the support. Anybody that can get this project started can have all the help I can offer. e-mail me if interested.
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Sonic Blue 03 Cobra Vert Owner!!!
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#14328 - 10/09/2000 02:40
Re: digital input / cd changer controls
[Re: 94cobra]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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Changers don't generally use anything approaching a standard serial interface, so you'll need a convertor - a PIC should be able to do the job.
The protocols are proprietry so they would have to be reverse engineered, or sniffed with a serial protocol analyser.
Rob
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#14329 - 10/09/2000 07:41
Re: digital input / cd changer controls
[Re: rob]
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enthusiast
Registered: 30/09/1999
Posts: 252
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Ok, but we still need control from the Empeg. If most changers are going to be proprietary and need a PIC, with each brand needing a different program in the PIC, then we could accept a standard Empeg command. That shouldn't be that hard to implement.
I don't think we a huge amount of features from the Empeg, at least to start with. Omit all the cool stuff for a first version, like CD Text, CD naming, and all that stuff. Just give us simple command like play, pause, next track, previous track, disc change. At that point, if enough people are taking that route a whole protocol for talking with the PIC's could then be setup to do the more advanced functions.
All we/I need is the functionality in the Empeg at this point then. A simple setup option in the configuration in Emplode to turn Changer control on/off.
I am setting up to learn how to program in Linux. Never used till now. So I would need help in that arena. At least in getting started. I know other win based programming languages, so my knowledge should be easily transfered.
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Sonic Blue 03 Cobra Vert Owner!!!
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#14330 - 10/09/2000 17:36
Re: digital input / cd changer controls
[Re: 94cobra]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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We don't currently have plans for CD autochanger support. It could happen in the future, but we run a tight prioritised schedule, and there are other commercial issues as well.
Rob
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#14331 - 10/09/2000 18:47
Re: digital input / cd changer controls
[Re: rob]
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enthusiast
Registered: 30/09/1999
Posts: 252
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what are you calling commercial issues?
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Sonic Blue 03 Cobra Vert Owner!!!
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#14332 - 10/09/2000 19:45
Re: digital input / cd changer controls
[Re: 94cobra]
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enthusiast
Registered: 05/07/2000
Posts: 301
Loc: Montana, USA, Bozeman
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If empeg commits to setting up the empeg to output changer controls, I will analyze the bus communication protocol and maybe write the microcontroller code too for the Alpine Ai-net changers.
As many know, I have an NTSC/PAL output designed so I am waiting patiently for serial output of the song/artist info.
I am more interested in the TV output but I will work on whichever comes first.
Alex Lear
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Alex Lear
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#14333 - 11/09/2000 09:05
Re: digital input / cd changer controls
[Re: alear]
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enthusiast
Registered: 30/09/1999
Posts: 252
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Oh man that would be nice also. I would be interested in that as well. What all have you done?
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Sonic Blue 03 Cobra Vert Owner!!!
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#14334 - 11/09/2000 10:27
Re: digital input / cd changer controls/TV output
[Re: 94cobra]
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enthusiast
Registered: 05/07/2000
Posts: 301
Loc: Montana, USA, Bozeman
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What all have you done?
I'm pretty much ready for the empeg data. The first version will have song info. The second version will have my own (basic) visualisations. Probably just Spectrum analyzer type stuff. If empeg can send the menu item that is selected also I can almost completely recreate the menus too.
I could put the song data from the csv file in eeprom and use the file ID thats already coming out but thats not worth it to me and thats too hard for most people to load their song data into eeprom.
I am not even sure if empeg has the time to change the program to send this data out. I am waiting patiently but not holding my breath. There are much bigger features they are working on which I would rather see first myself :) I think it was Hugo that mentioned it wouldn't be too hard though. Unlike the timecodes the option to send out the data needs to be in emplode.
I originally wanted to do this to get the song data up on my larger Alpine TV display. Most people that I've talked to want it for home and Tony pointed out other useful reasons for song info besides TV out.
Alex Lear
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Alex Lear
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#14335 - 11/09/2000 11:18
Re: digital input / cd changer controls/TV output
[Re: alear]
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journeyman
Registered: 13/08/2000
Posts: 82
Loc: Near Arnhem, Netherlands
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If you ever finish it I'd be interested too. That way I can hook the thing up to my Carin display. Keep me posted.
Would be nice if we could attach the album cover jpg as ID3 comment or something like that :)
Walter
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Reg:1934/Mk1:158-Blue(sold)/Mk2:380-Amber(sold)/Mk2a:3273-Blue
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