#174537 - 11/08/2003 10:02
Embargo... LIFTED!
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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(Note, subject line of this thread must be spoken in the style of Master Blaster in Beyond Thunderdome.)
Paul pointed out that both the 20 and 40 are listed here...
http://www.digitalnetworksna.com/rioaudio/compare.html
So here's what I want to know from everyone... How do folks feel about the pricing, based on the specs given on that page?
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#174538 - 11/08/2003 10:12
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
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I wanna know why they're using red buttons on the device photos on that page..
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#174539 - 11/08/2003 10:13
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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How do folks feel about the pricing The pricing is pretty competitive and reasonable, and I'm sure the price will start falling in due time. The biggest disappointment for me is the paltry 90 day limited warranty. Yeah, I know that's becoming the norm these days, but for a portable device that costs so much, I was hoping for a 1yr warranty. I'm probably not going to be an early adopter this time, at least until I read some reviews from people here and get an idea of how durable/reliable these things are.
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#174540 - 11/08/2003 10:14
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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I think the pricing is probably reasonable, though I don't have the cash right now to make it happen. And I'm biased enough that I wouldn't even look at a different brand of mp3 player now that this is coming out. It's either Rio or nothing, which is probably not the attitude most consumers are going to take. But at least my wife agrees. I let her borrow my empeg for a week (I know, can you believe it? A week with NO EMPEG. She's still recovering from major back surgery, so she pretty much gets whatever she wants) and now she wants a Karma so bad she can't stop talking about it. So we'll probably get a 40 gig at some point when cashflow is a bit better.
Two questions I have though:
1. Will we ever be able to sync our Empegs with the Karma so when I do get my wife one it will be easy to keep them both up to date? (I assume/hope that someday the Karma will get nested playlists, otherwise this couldn't ever happen)
2. My wife really wants a docking station for her car if she gets an mp3 player. In fact she specifically told me to post here and say so. She wants the "cuteness" (i.e. small) and portability of the Karma with the ability to play music everywhere like the Emepg has. So what's the likelyhood of this ever happening? I figure slim to none, but this would probably be the "killer app" for my family to buy one. Right now the Empeg is installed in my car, not hers, and her car is the one we use for long trips.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#174541 - 11/08/2003 10:18
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I wanna know why they're using red buttons on the device photos on that page.. 'cause that's what the final plastic will have. The photos are accurate.
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#174542 - 11/08/2003 10:22
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Greetings!
That and everyone likes to bush big red buttons. It is kind of like blue LEDs. It is just human nature...
Hey! The 40GB is listed as 0.2 inches thicker!!! Strange!
Edited by pgrzelak (11/08/2003 10:24)
_________________________
Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs
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#174543 - 11/08/2003 10:22
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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1. Will we ever be able to sync our Empegs with the Karma so when I do get my wife one it will be easy to keep them both up to date? (I assume/hope that someday the Karma will get nested playlists, otherwise this couldn't ever happen) Aye, there's the rub. None of the other products have hierarchical playlists and therefore you can't get the empeg in synch with them.
I don't know if it will ever happen. I was hoping for something like this for the Rio Central and it hasn't happened. I recently re-did my whole collection, and I still have to keep things carefully organized, by hand, between the PC, the Central, the Empeg, and <whatever else I have>.
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#174544 - 11/08/2003 10:26
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: tfabris]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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Does that mean it's now officially ok to link to images leaked here - such as the Karma/iPod comparison pic?
_________________________
Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962
sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.
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#174545 - 11/08/2003 10:34
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Aye, there's the rub. None of the other products have hierarchical playlists and therefore you can't get the empeg in synch with them. I think that could be solved by adding soup views to the empeg car player. Then for Karma -> empeg syncs, you'd have the files in soup views, and could add them to playlists later at your leisure. For empeg -> Karma syncs, you just wouldn't get your playlists transferred over, the songs could still go. There are probably technical obstacles to this, and also more conventional obstacles like the Cambridge team being very busy with real work... But I don't see why it couldn't be done.
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#174546 - 11/08/2003 10:48
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Your statement assumes that the only reason for heirarchical playlists is so that you can do artist/album trees. I use heirarchical playlists for other reasons than to make artist/album trees.
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#174547 - 11/08/2003 10:54
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Your statement assumes that the only reason for heirarchical playlists is so that you can do artist/album trees. I use heirarchical playlists for other reasons than to make artist/album trees. No, it doesn't assume that at all -- it only assumes that for most people, being able to sync with a Karma and then doing your playlists manually would be preferable to having no way to sync between them at all.
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#174548 - 11/08/2003 11:02
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Ah, gotcha.
For me, I don't care about synching the files. That's a "drag them all onto the player and walk away" thing. The part that I care about is the careful creation of playlists. That's the time-consuming part.
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#174549 - 11/08/2003 11:04
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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I think the pricing is right on the edge. Anything less than $400, and it would have been a "cheap ipod alternative". Unfortunatly, $400 still leaves it in the expensive unnecessary device category, and $100 more than the cheapest iPod. Having had the chance to see one and play wth it a bit, I know if I'm "investing" any money in a portable player, it'll be a Karma. At $400, I'm going to have to wait untill I find a good deal on it, which will probably take a couple months at the least.
Matthew
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#174550 - 11/08/2003 11:06
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: matthew_k]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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and $100 more than the cheapest iPod. Or, depending on how you look at it, the same price as the mid-level iPod but with more capacity...
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#174551 - 11/08/2003 11:09
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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You get an extra 5GB for the same price, or an extra 10GB for the same price with the high end unit. We simply have no equivalent of the low end iPod (i.e. very small disk, no dock etc).
Rob
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#174552 - 11/08/2003 11:11
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: rob]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Also, typically a loss-leader for bringing in sales of other devices (or cars, if you like the bug)...
_________________________
Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs
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#174553 - 11/08/2003 11:12
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: matthew_k]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Keep in mind you are more likely to find a deal on the Karma compaired to the iPod. Apple is usually pretty strict about pricing on there devices, while Rio is just another typical company who sets a suggested retail price.
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#174554 - 11/08/2003 11:57
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: tfabris]
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addict
Registered: 13/07/2002
Posts: 634
Loc: Jesusland
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None of the other products have hierarchical playlists and therefore you can't get the empeg in synch with them.
I don't know if it will ever happen. I was hoping for something like this for the Rio Central and it hasn't happened.
But will the Karma sync with the Rio Central? 
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#174555 - 11/08/2003 12:02
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Question on batteries on the Karma. I noticed it's a built in battery... What if it starts to degrade over time? Any way for users to replace batteries, or maybe have a second battery to swap in?
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#174556 - 11/08/2003 12:03
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: Jerz]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
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Me Too !
_________________________
Matt
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#174557 - 11/08/2003 12:05
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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What if it starts to degrade over time? Any way for users to replace batteries, or maybe have a second battery to swap in? I don't know if it's the kind of battery that tends to degrade over time or not.
As far as what's involved in swapping the battery, I have the knowledge to answer the question, but I don't know if that's something I'm allowed to discuss or not. I'm trying to be as careful as I can with not saying stuff that's NDA.
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#174558 - 11/08/2003 12:06
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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I don't know if it's the kind of battery that tends to degrade over time or not. Not so much. But I have 3 Li-on batteries for my cell phone and only the newest one lasts me 4+ days. The other two get me through about 2 or 3.
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#174559 - 11/08/2003 12:07
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: tonyc]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
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Don't you guys get a standard 1 year warranty on goods like in the UK?
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#174560 - 11/08/2003 12:09
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: rob]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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You get an extra 5GB for the same price, or an extra 10GB for the same price with the high end unit. We simply have no equivalent of the low end iPod (i.e. very small disk, no dock etc).
And, as I said before, I'm really impressed the dock comes with both models. All things being equal, walking around with an iPod is still a large status symbol. Geeks want to explain how cool their car stereo is, how it's so much better than any others, and how You Can't Have One because they stopped making them. Normal People want people to see their iPod and go "look, he's got an ipod, he must have disposable income, I think I'll go talk to him". It remains to be seen if the Karma will become a status symbol or not, but gaining that non-geek appeal will be dificult.
As soon as I can get one for $350 taxed and shipped, all be ordering. Oh, I wanted to compliment the rio store for having shipping be a reasonable $6. Quite respectable. Any interesting thing that you can't put a price on is that when I sent my mother to the apple online store to buy an ipod for my sister, she later told me without promting that it was the best online shopping experience she'd had. I'm glad to hear the old estore has been replaced with a new one, and anxious to hear some reports about it.
Matthew
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#174561 - 11/08/2003 12:09
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: CrackersMcCheese]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Don't you guys get a standard 1 year warranty on goods like in the UK? Er, um, no.... By "standard" do you mean it's some sort of law or something? Over here I'm not sure a company has to provide any warranty at all...
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#174562 - 11/08/2003 12:25
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Over here I'm not sure a company has to provide any warranty at all... I think I remember from business class in high school that anything over $10 has to have a 30 day warranty by law.
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#174563 - 11/08/2003 12:41
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: pgrzelak]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Hey! The 40GB is listed as 0.2 inches thicker!!! Strange! Yeah, I only found that out today too. Even the docks are different, which if you ask me is just asking for comedy scenes when the unsuspecting owner visits his mate's house and tries to dock his Karma.
Peter
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#174564 - 11/08/2003 12:42
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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That's okay, we'll just wait for the Mark Lord brand Karma Docks.
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#174565 - 11/08/2003 12:49
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: pgrzelak]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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Hey! The 40GB is listed as 0.2 inches thicker
The drive is thicker and we didn't want to burden the 20GB model unnecessarily.
The Beta units that some of you have seen are the thicker 40GB plastics.
Rob
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#174566 - 11/08/2003 13:09
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: tonyc]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
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Any goods here have at LEAST a one year manufacturers warranty by law. Soon to be 2 years.
I bought a Sony item from the US a couple of months back and was shocked to see there was no 1 year warranty.
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#174567 - 11/08/2003 14:02
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: rob]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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0.2 inches is really hard to tell!!! I can easily see the issue of having everything be off by a tiny fraction - warehousing, shipping, customer support. Scary proposition.
_________________________
Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs
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#174568 - 11/08/2003 14:57
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: pgrzelak]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
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Maybe it was to help prevent sticking a 40gig drive into a 20gig
It sounds like quite a bit to me isn't that about the thickness of 3 quarters. I don't know if it's enough to go through the trouble of making two of everything though.
_________________________
Matt
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#174569 - 11/08/2003 15:12
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: msaeger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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It only affects the back cover. Each iPod is a different thickness also.
Rob
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#174570 - 12/08/2003 10:57
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: tfabris]
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enthusiast
Registered: 30/01/2002
Posts: 264
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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The 40g price of $499 is fine with me. I have 35g of music on my riocar, this product will be perfect for me.
_________________________
Steve
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#174571 - 12/08/2003 11:35
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: tfabris]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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How do folks feel about the pricing, based on the specs given on that page?
I'm intruiged to know how well the Nitrus will sell. I can't help but feel that $300 is too much for 1.5GB, even though it is has a great form factor and feature set.
The flip side is that if Rio keep updating it with bigger drives as they become available, and the typical discounting occurs, then I could see 5GB at ~$200 in that form factor being compelling for daily runners. I wonder if the Nitrus might outsell the Karma if that happens.
_________________________
Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962
sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.
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#174572 - 12/08/2003 11:48
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: genixia]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I can't help but feel that $300 is too much for 1.5GB, even though it is has a great form factor and feature set. Yeah, considering that's the price of the 10gb iPod.
I mean, yeah, form factor, apples and orange (pun intended), but still.
Matching iPod price but beating iPod capacity for the 20 and 40 is a good move. Especially considering that the street prices of the Rio units will be even lower. But yeah, I'm not clear on $300.00 for the 1.5gb version when you can get the iPod 10 for that price.
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#174573 - 12/08/2003 16:50
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: genixia]
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addict
Registered: 24/07/2003
Posts: 500
Loc: Colorado, N.A.
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FWIW,
the ex-Forrester Research guy quoted in this article seems to think the Nitrus will do well against the low-end iPod. Maybe he's figuring 10GB is way more than these buyers need anyway, so it will come down to ... {dramatic pause} ... form factor and battery life.
_________________________
-- DLF
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#174574 - 12/08/2003 17:04
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: DLF]
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addict
Registered: 13/07/2002
Posts: 634
Loc: Jesusland
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Maybe he's figuring 10GB is way more than these buyers need anyway, so it will come down to ... {dramatic pause} ... form factor and battery life.
Actually, I would have to agree with that line of thinking simply based on the fact that 10GB for me is not enough for all of my mp3's and since I own a Rio central as well as an empeg I really have no reason even for the 40gig Karma. I need something SMALL with a long battery life that can hold enough music to get the yardwork done (and the rio 800 is not quite big enough even with the 32MB back pack with the 128MB). So I would probably be more inclined to buy the Nitrus then Karma or ipod based on form factor and battery life. But ONLY if it'll download directly from the Rio Central or the empeg.... if it won't do that then I'll just stick with the 800.
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#174575 - 12/08/2003 20:29
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: Jerz]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Well, you'd be very pleased with Nitrus. Getting an early preview of it, I can tell you it's very small, amazingly thin, light as a feather, has fantastic battery life and looks great! I think most people would find about a 400 song capacity more than sufficient. I can't even feel it in my pocket when I'm out. Pretty sure it's lighterthan my S35 and certainly much thinner.
Plus, it can sort by ID3 tags, create playlists and has a file taxi. So, not Karma, but still very feature rich. Great sound, too!
I think it's Rio's dark horse and will become it's surprise hit!
Rory
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#174576 - 12/08/2003 20:30
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Anonymous
(Unregistered)
13/08/03 02:29 AM
???
Edit: Oh, I get it... People can post anonymous on this particular forum. Tom, is that the desired effect?
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#174577 - 12/08/2003 22:50
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Edit: Oh, I get it... People can post anonymous on this particular forum. Tom, is that the desired effect? I'm guessing NOT. It's a setting you have to apply after-the-fact, after creating the forum, and Tom must have missed it. I'm going to set it properly and if he really MEANT to have anonymous posters, he can set it back later.
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#174579 - 13/08/2003 00:07
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Oops. I created this area before rushing off to work Monday, and must have seen the grid wrong. Yes, I did not want anonymous posting enabled. Thanks for catching that Tony.
Last post from Colorado for a bit. Heading on the road to Quakecon in 7 hours. Don't mess up the place too much while I am gone :-)
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#174580 - 13/08/2003 05:16
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: tfabris]
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member
Registered: 16/12/1999
Posts: 188
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
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It's not a matter of "I mean, yeah, form factor", but rather "Form factor!".
The form factor is pretty much the defining characteristic of the Nitrus. A lot of Karma features are not present on the Nitrus because they simply won't fit.
To my surprise, having something this light and portable, but still able to hold a reasonable number of tunes (i.e. enough to keep you going for a whole day) is very appealing. Especially if your normal mode of listening to your collection is "Shuffle the whole damn lot, and then I'll skip any I don't like". For me that's true about 95% of the time.
And Rio Music Manager does a reasonable job of automatically rotating the material, so you don't get have to manually swap things around when you get sick of what's currently on your player. (Obviously extra capacity and processing power would be nice, but as my grandmother used to say "You can't make a cake without breaking a few legs" (sic) .)
So at the moment I'm in a bit of an unexpected quandry as to whether I want to buy a Karma or not, because I really like the ultraportability of the Nitrus.
Richard.
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#174581 - 13/08/2003 05:37
Re: Embargo... LIFTED!
[Re: rjlov]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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I agree that the form factor of Nitrus is very compelling. It would probably be my player of choice to take on a trip involving public transport.
Rob
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