I've been doing some video editing in Premiere for a while now, and have reconfirmed my dislike for all Adobe products.

I'd like to know about any good alternatives, preferably something aimed at a lower user level and a lower price range. Like Paint Shop Pro is to Photoshop, I'd like something similar in video editing. Something that's user friendly. Plus, if would be preferable that it could export MPEG2 video.

Thanks for any ideas you might have.

Depending on your budget, ULead Video Studio or Media Studio Pro might be good choices. Both support MPEG2. I briefly used a bundled version of Media Studio awhile back and it seemed to work well for me.

Thanks, Tony. That second one seems good, since it uses the basic A/B editing timeline that Premiere uses. The first one, though, is too basic for my tastes. It's the right price, though.

I haven't been a big fan of Ulead products, but I may give these a shot.

The first one, though, is too basic for my tastes. It's the right price, though.

Funny how that works, ain't it.

What platform are you on? If it's mac, then there always Final Cut Express.

- trs

Oh yeah, sorry. Win2K. It's another reason I have to get away from Adobe. Premiere 7 is XP exclusive. I have no idea why, since it looks almost exactly like 6.5, 6.0, and 5.0, but whatever. I don't like their software anyway.

There was program called Video Explosion that got good Cnet ratings, but when I tried to look for it (for download or buy) it was nowhere to be found.

The best mid-range, non-sgi / non-mac video program I know of is Vegas. It started life as a Sonic Foundry program before they sold all their desktop software assets to Sony. VERY powerful and you used to be able to download a free trial. If not, let me know and I can post it somewhere for you (the TRIAL version, that is).

Or, you could pay Apple a bunch more and get a pretty interface.

Or, you could pay Sgi more and get a pretty box. And a pretty interface. =^D

Either way, if you're stuck on a Win-tendo, Vegas is the way to go IMO.

i think now Vegas is now Screenblast Movie Studio...I haven't had a chance to try it out much, but it seems pretty good. It even has chromakey (sp?)

Thanks for the suggestions. I've never even heard of those programs. I'm not sure what you're looking at, though, but the screenshots for that Vegas program make it look about 3 times more confusing than Premiere. That, and it retails for $560! That's the Premiere price range. I'm trying to get away from that.

Screenblast Movie Studio, on the other hand, is the right price range, but once again sounds like "Grandma's video editing software". When the first feature of a program is templates, I'm not optimistic about it. All the other features make it sound like it's not the right program.

I insist that there is an imaginary price that these companies have set for their products. When it comes to DVD creation software, companies like Pinnacle sell products for over $500. But then there's this one guy who made a program far better and more powerful than those programs (not to mention MUCH easier to use), and he's selling it for around $80. That's the kind of program I'm looking for. I've found it for images, I've found it for DVD creation, and now I'm determined to find it for video editing.

Sorry about the pricing; misunderstood your meaning. I thought you wanted to get away from Premiere quality-wise, not price-wise.

I actually found Vegas to be FAR more intuitive than Premiere. I'll admit that the screenshots look confusing, but unless we can find a screenshot of Fisher Price's "My First DVD Authoring Environment" I don't see audio/video mastering software getting a whole lot more simple.

I do have to disagree about the concepts of "far better", "more powerful" and "easier to use", though. Each is completely open to interpretation, and they have nothing to do with price or complexity. A software package is a tool, nothing more nothing less. The tool needs to fit the job. For someone creating a DVD of the home movies from little Timmy's birthday, the program you're linking to is probably fine. For high-end professional work, it takes something a little further up the scale. Take Adobe After Effects; great for motion graphics and compositing at the Art Institute, but if you're going to do film work, you use something like Smoke, Flame or Inferno.

Paint Shop Pro is NOT a Photoshop replacement. It's a program that's perfect for someone who needs something like Photoshop, but doesn't quite need Photoshop. And no matter how much people WANT to believe it, the Gimp isn't a replacement for Photoshop either. It's a program that's great for someone who runs Unix and needs something like Photoshop (or a version of Photoshop newer than 3.0).

Sorry if I'm coming off bitchy here, this is just something I run into pretty often in the work-life. People tend worry about price first, then wonder why they aren't getting the exact results they want.....Of course, that's work life. Not real life..

I didn't mean to imply that PSP was a Photoshop replacement. I wasn't grouping it in that particular statement. I meant to say it was a far better program for my purposes. It may not be nearly as powerful, but it still posesses many of the capabilites of Photoshop, and the interface is "far better" for someone like me. If I want to crop or resize an image or something, I think that it is easier in PSP. These simple tasks were difficult for me in Photoshop, just as they are difficult to do with any skill or precision in "Grandma's Photo Editor."

As for the general issues you addressed in your post, I think you're missunderstanding me, particularly in my perceptions of software. I want you to use a program like Pinnacle's DVD Impression Pro, then DVDlab, then tell me what you think. If you haven't tried these programs for yourself, then what you said about my reactions to them is pretty unfair. Besides, DVDlab is much more than something to create a DVD of "Timmy's birthday", and if you had used it or looked at it, you'd see that while it isn't Scenarist, it matches and exceeds most other "high end" DVD creation tools.

I'm sorry, but everything you said in your post doesn't apply to me. I know what I'm expecting out of these programs, I know what they can do/are intended to do, and I know when they don't meet that goal. I am not one of those people at your office. If you want me to expand on my experience with Impression, and why it was a terrible $600 program, I won't have a problem.

I don't think I made my point clear enough. Here it is in a simpler form (one I actually thought through ):

It is obvious that there are usable, well made, powerful programs in the sub-$100 range. Why isn't there such a program for DVD editing?

Everything else I have said in these posts is superfluous. I intended to show reasons that companies are obviously trying to force price categories on us, creating the rule that anything below $100 is nothing but a template program, and to get something of any use, you have to spend $400+. I want to see that change.

Whatever you do...DO NOT USE PINNACLE'S STUDIO 8!! The program is a pile of crap...

Please forgive me; I think I must've eaten an attitude problem for lunch yesterday. I should explain:

I actually have seen people use DVDlab, though I havn't actually built a disc with it myself. I agree, it's definately above many so-called "high-end" DVD authoring apps. But to me, it's still far to "pointy-clicky", which is something I just can't handle with software. It's why I like Maya over 3D Studio, or Combustion/Smoke over After Affects.... But that's just me, and my personal taste.

And I can't agree with you more on Impression. The simple fact that it's put out by Pinnacle (who has always seemed more concerned with their interface than the program behind it) gives it a failing grade for me.

Like I said, I was definately being pissy yesterday, which was not my intent. I wholeheartedly apologize. When you say you feel that PSP is simply a better program for YOUR purposes, you echo what I intended as my point (but failed miserable in getting across in a gentle, firendly way. )

I also agree that many companies DO force price categories on us. As much as I love Discreet's products, I don't see why I can buy Combustion for my Win-tendo for $1000, but it would cost me over (WAAYYY over) $10K to buy Flame for my Sgi Octane. It's a bunch of hooey; Flame is better, but not THAT much better.

On the other hand, the price of Combustion recently dropped to $1000 from over $5000, while the featureset was improved. Maybe there's hope.

I guess what it comes down to is that commercial software will always be just that; commercial. We need to open source community to realize that 12,745 text editors is enough and that they should start working on more software like the Gimp, etc. And a free, open source DVD authoring app for good measure.

Cool, I think we're on the same page now. I agree with everything in that post.

I think you should give DVDlab a try. You're right about how the interface looks, and it is very easy to make a DVD (the total time to construct the backup for a Tivo'd ep of ER was about 1 minute), but I think it has enough small advanced capabilities to make it pretty powerful.

You're right, though. It isn't a tool for pros. I've heard about what you can do with programs like Scenarist and other professional programs, and it would be fantastic, but I don't fancy climbing that learning curve. DVDlab's greatest feature is its usability to the point where you can make some pretty advanced stuff in very little time.

Lastly, I'm glad you agree about Impression. That is one piece of crap that astonishes me with its price tag. It was the worst tool for creating a menu system. Actually, you had to create your own menus in Photoshop using a painstaking amount button layers. Grrr.

Anyway, it's cool we got this straight

ps- burdell: I fully agree. Studio 8 is horrible. I guess that's why it was included with my video card

Has anyone used Pinnacle Liquid Edition? With an edu discount from my university I can purchase the Pro 5.5 edition for under $500 with their video card and breakout box. In the past I've used premier a lot and it's ok.. but i'd like to try something else.

Also while i'm asking... Does anyone know if there are places that sell camcorders at student prices? I'm looking to buy an new one and have pretty much decided on canon's GL2, so right now i'm trying to find the best price on it.

-Greg

When you *do* find the best price, please share the love. I'm a bit of a budding independent filmmaker (of sorts).

Well so far the best price I've been offered was $1650 (brand new in the box, usa warranty, not grey market) with free next day shipping. This was about a week ago and I didn't have the money which really sucks cause that was a really good deal. I have the money now but the best deal I can find right now seems to be right under $1800 after canon's $250 rebate. I'm hoping I can find something around $1650 again.

I also found it for $1300 and $1500 but the reviews for those sites are so horrible I wouldn't recommend them to my worst ememy (not that I have one).

If anyone knows of a better deal somewhere please let me(us) know. It would be much appreciated.

-Greg

If you qualify for educational discounts, maybe you could get your school to special order you one. Canon has their small educational information page. So if your school and Canon are willing to do a single order, it may work out to a good deal. Of course if your bookstore is anything like mine, the internet may be a better source!

When you *do* find the best price, please share the love. I'm a bit of a budding independent filmmaker (of sorts).

Just got one off ebay for $1650 brand new, not refurbished, with all accessories, 1 year warranty, and got the next day after payment. I think this is just about the best deal one could hope for on this camera. The cheapest online store ended up to be around $100 more then that plus you have to wait for a $250 rebate.

The 'bad' experience of this purchase was the initial shock after sending out the payment. There is a LOT of scams going on at ebay, especially with this camera. I was really scared that I would get scammed, even with paypal, my cc, and ebay (somewhat) behind me.

All-in-all I'm glad I did purchase from this individual as they where VERY quick with the order and didn't leave me handing around wondering when it would come. Plus everything seems to be in order.. Everything was in its packaging and the warranty card says USA.

-Greg