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#199565 - 21/01/2004 11:24 Re: Bush's positive qualities [Re: JeffS]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
It is because I trust the source of Bush’s moral compass that I still don’t believe he invaded Iraq to gain oil or finish some vendetta.
Can't someone share the same "moral compass" as you and not be nearly as good at following that compass? Or, to be more specific, how can you blindly trust Bush's motivation for the war if you don't know how good he is at sticking to those morals when it comes time to make decisions? Aren't some Christians better at adhering to their faith than others?
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#199566 - 21/01/2004 11:33 Re: Bush's positive qualities [Re: wfaulk]
Jerz
addict

Registered: 13/07/2002
Posts: 634
Loc: Jesusland
Also, being presented with ``it's possible to hijack a plane and use it as a bomb'' is obviously a statement of pure fact, whereas ``Iraq has WMDs'' is conjecture masquerading as fact, regardless of whether it is true or not.


Interesting article on the WMD

And... anything is "possible".

"it's possible to hijack a plane and use it as a bomb" and "it's possible that Saddam had WMD". I'm not sure of the point. Nevermind, is it the "conspiracy theory" again? Bush manipulating the truth for his own personal gain?

My favorite conspiracy theory though is that we never landed on the moon. Some say it's physically impossible.



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#199567 - 21/01/2004 11:43 Re: Bush's positive qualities [Re: JeffS]
genixia
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
He may just lip service the faith and be using it for political gain.

He certainly doesn't lip service the fifth commandment. His smirking 'saddle-up' attitude when it comes to matters of death (Saddam's sons, the death penalty etc) does not exaclty demonstrate any reverence for that commandment.
I expect that leaders have to make tough decisions that result in death. I don't expect them to revel in it.
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#199568 - 21/01/2004 11:43 Re: Bush's positive qualities [Re: wfaulk]
lopan
old hand

Registered: 28/01/2002
Posts: 970
Loc: Manassas VA
I think the fact that you label it as trivial is disingenuous

I never said it was trivial, on the contrary, I've been cheated on before and it sucks. I think it's more a matter to settle between him and his wife, not the Republicans and the 9:00 evening news. It pales in comparison to some of the crap Bush has pulled. I do think it got blown way out of proportion and turned into a frickin witch hunt.
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#199569 - 21/01/2004 11:51 Re: Bush's positive qualities [Re: Jerz]
lopan
old hand

Registered: 28/01/2002
Posts: 970
Loc: Manassas VA
BUT when his intelligence tells him that Sadam has WMD and intends on using them then he should not do a thing?

Granted, it is the Mother Jones Report , this article gives a rather informative read about Bush's "Intelligence" gathering.
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#199570 - 21/01/2004 11:51 Re: Bush's positive qualities [Re: tonyc]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Can't someone share the same "moral compass" as you and not be nearly as good at following that compass?
Yes, it's only a starting point, and I've been dissapointed in a lot of the choices Bush has made.
Or, to be more specific, how can you blindly trust Bush's motivation for the war if you don't know how good he is at sticking to those morals when it comes time to make decisions?
In fact I really don't know what his motive for the war really was (does anybody), though I think I know what it wasn't.
Aren't some Christians better at adhering to their faith than others?
Again, yes and if there were a better option I'd take it. However, I'll still take the person who starts at the right point and makes mistakes over someone who's starting at the wrong place to begin with.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#199571 - 21/01/2004 11:52 Re: Bush's positive qualities [Re: Jerz]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
My point is that the Bush administration claims it was unaware that a hijacked plane could be used as a weapon. Honestly, it's not the sort of thing that would immediately pop to one's mind. But the point is that it was pointed out to the Bush administration and now they're claiming that they'd never heard of any such thing. Not that someone was actively planning to do it, but that the possibility had occurred to them at all.
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Bitt Faulk

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#199572 - 21/01/2004 11:53 Re: Bush's positive qualities [Re: JeffS]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Even if the person starting from the wrong place is making choices more in line with yours because the person starting from the right place has drifted so far?
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Bitt Faulk

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#199573 - 21/01/2004 11:59 Re: Bush's positive qualities [Re: JeffS]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Again, yes and if there were a better option I'd take it. However, I'll still take the person who starts at the right point and makes mistakes over someone who's starting at the wrong place to begin with.
But what if that person who's "starting at the wrong place" (meaning has a different faith than you do) makes better decisions, and, just coincidentally, makes decisions that fall more in line with your beliefs than the guy who supposedly follows your faith? As a hypothetical exercise, let's say a Jewish Republican candidate emerged, whose political platform, decision-making, etc. matched up with what you think is right. Wouldn't you vote for that guy instead of Bush, whom you acknowledge as falling short on many of his decisions? Or does being Christian give Bush a free pass? If it doesn't completely exonerate him, how much does he have to screw up before you'd consider placing your vote with someone of a different religious background?

It seems to me that it's possible that someone can start off with a "moral compass" and religious persuasion completely different from yours, but arrive at many of the same political decisions.
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#199574 - 21/01/2004 12:00 Re: Bush's positive qualities [Re: wfaulk]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Damn it, now you made me look like a fool for taking two paragraphs to say the exact same thing you said in one sentence.
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#199575 - 21/01/2004 12:01 Re: Bush's positive qualities [Re: genixia]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
He certainly doesn't lip service the fifth commandment.
To be completly accurate, the fifth commandment is "Do Not Murder", not "Do Not Kill". As you say, sometimes decisions have to be made that result in death that would not be considered murder. However,
His smirking 'saddle-up' attitude when it comes to matters of death (Saddam's sons, the death penalty etc) does not exaclty demonstrate any reverence for that commandment.
is a really good point. In fact, I have been dissapointed with a lot of Christian's reactions to death as far as Saddam and his sons are concerned. It is completly valid to rejoice that a threat has been dealt with and victory achived, but we have not limited our celebrations to this alone. I heard someone I respect exclaim with glee "hang him high!" with regards to Saddam, and I just feel this isn't right. Not that the death penality shouldn't be invoked, but it isn't something we should take pleasure in.

So yes, that is a very valid criticism of Bush, and many Christians in general actually. Which only illustrates that we make mistakes and are in need of grace just like anyone else. However, the stakes are much higher when you are the President.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#199576 - 21/01/2004 12:09 Re: Bush's positive qualities [Re: tonyc]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
But what if that person who's "starting at the wrong place" (meaning has a different faith than you do) makes better decisions, and, just coincidentally, makes decisions that fall more in line with your beliefs than the guy who supposedly follows your faith?
Well, let me clarify a bit. "starting at the right place" doesn't mean to me "an Evangelical Christian," though that does help. In fact I could easily vote for an atheist if his or her moral compass seemed to align with mine. So far, from what I've seen, none of the Democratic players’ do.
As a hypothetical exercise, let's say a Jewish Republican candidate emerged, whose political platform, decision-making, etc. matched up with what you think is right. Wouldn't you vote for that guy instead of Bush, whom you acknowledge as falling short on many of his decisions?
Absolutely. Even if the guy was a Democrat, actually.

In case you can’t tell, I’m not a huge Bush supporter (though I was at one time). I just happen to think that he’s more likely to govern the country the way I’d want than any of the other choices available. I think this because of his religious persuasion and the fact that what I’ve read of the other’s indicates they’d support things to which I’m firmly opposed.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#199577 - 21/01/2004 12:12 Re: Bush's positive qualities [Re: Jerz]
lopan
old hand

Registered: 28/01/2002
Posts: 970
Loc: Manassas VA
If he lied about something so trivial what else has he lied about?

I found it hard to believe that it got that far, but I can't say I blame him for lying about something like that. I don't condone it, but under the circumstances? A guy is standing before the supreme court over a hummer? The whole scenario was rediculous, and as far as disgracing the office by doing something like that in the whitehouse? At least he was there and not on vacation.
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#199578 - 21/01/2004 12:17 Re: Bush's positive qualities [Re: JeffS]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
I grew up in a Christian family. I went to church every Sunday and most Wednesdays until I was about 17 years old. So I'm not talking without knowledge or personal experience.

The extreme hypocrisy with which seemingly most, but probably just many so-called Christians live their lives has soured me on the whole thing forever. I never had any experience to lead me to believe that this life is any more than what we can see, but that's not the point. Christanity has a pretty good philosophy, at least except for Paul's extremes. But so many Christians have basically no interest in that.

My wife watched the movie Blast from the Past the other day. One of the characters said ``He said, good manners are just a way of showing other people we have respect for them. See, I didn't know that, I thought it was just a way of acting all superior.'' To me, that's what Christianity has become. A way for people to feel morally superior. (I'm not placing this fault on you, specifically.) And I believe that's the extent of GWB's religion.

There are other people I know (personally if not well) who are, apparently, highly regarded in the evangelical community who I believe exhibit the exact same lack of Christianness. There's this creepy narcissistic quality to them that stands out beyond all else for me.
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Bitt Faulk

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#199579 - 21/01/2004 12:22 Re: Bush's positive qualities [Re: JeffS]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
In case you can’t tell, I’m not a huge Bush supporter (though I was at one time). I just happen to think that he’s more likely to govern the country the way I’d want than any of the other choices available. I think this because of his religious persuasion and the fact that what I’ve read of the other’s indicates they’d support things to which I’m firmly opposed.
Okay, I totally respect that. It just seems that there are a lot of people who would vote for him just on the basis of his faith, without regard for what he actually does. I can understand your concept (at least in an ideal sense) that if you don't know anything else about a guy, you can start off with religion being a good indication of what he might do if elected. Not sure it holds up in all cases, but it's better than some other methods.

This phenomenon doesn't just exist with religion, either, as a lot of voters pick one or two issues and vote for those, without even looking at anything else (gun control, abortion rights, whatever.) I think doing that is more irresponsible than not voting at all.
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#199580 - 21/01/2004 12:28 Re: Bush's positive qualities [Re: wfaulk]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
To me, that's what Christianity has become. A way for people to feel morally superior.
History has well documented that this is the case, in part anyway. It makes me very sad, and I completely understand how unattractive this is. It is so easy to abuse people through religion, and Christians have been (and continue to be) very visible in this endeavor.

The only thing I can say is that I know of many Christians who do not pursue faith as a means of acting superior and controlling others. However, these are usually not the ones who get all of the press. And often when Christians do simply try to point out their viewpoints they are reject out of hand as being self-righteous because that is all anybody knows.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#199581 - 21/01/2004 12:36 Re: Bush's positive qualities [Re: wfaulk]
lopan
old hand

Registered: 28/01/2002
Posts: 970
Loc: Manassas VA
I grew up in a Christian family. I went to church every Sunday and most Wednesdays until I was about 17 years old. So I'm not talking without knowledge or personal experience.

The extreme hypocrisy with which seemingly most, but probably just many so-called Christians live their lives has soured me on the whole thing forever. I never had any experience to lead me to believe that this life is any more than what we can see, but that's not the point. Christanity has a pretty good philosophy, at least except for Paul's extremes. But so many Christians have basically no interest in that.

Thats pretty much my background as well, I personally don't like the judgement aspect of the "holy rollers". I'm not married, I live with my fiance and have a child with her, I believe myself to be a good father and partner (at some point we'll get married, it just hasn't been an issue for either of us). If I hear from one more "Christian" about how I'm living in sin and most likely going to burn in hell I think I'm going to explode....
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#199582 - 21/01/2004 12:38 Re: Bush's positive qualities [Re: JeffS]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
And often when Christians do simply try to point out their viewpoints they are reject out of hand as being self-righteous because that is all anybody knows.
In defense of Jeff's position, take any other hot-button political or moral issue out there and substitute it in for "religion" and "christianity" in his posts, and you still have a valid conclusion. The most visible people of any persuasion or belief seem to be the idiots, whereas the ones who quietly go on practicing and advancing their cause are generally pretty reasonable and tolerable, even if you don't agree with their cause.

In the irony of all ironies, one of the two or three Bible passages I can actually remember from my Church-going days taught this exact lesson, at least as I remember it. I don't remember the details (maybe some of you Bible-thumpers out there can help me ) but I remember it as two apostles (or at least disciples) talking about expressing their faith, and one of them wants to shout out to the world about how right they are and spread the word of God, and the other tells them that it's the guy who practices his faith without worrying how it's perceived or who agrees with him who is doing the right thing, and is more likely in tune with the original message of God. I wish I could be more specific than that, but I remember it well, because at the time, I was at a point in my life where I was starting to doubt the veracity of the faith I was born into (Catholicism) and it felt good to hear "from the source" that you can't always believe those who evangelize the loudest, sometimes, you need to come to your own conclusion.


Edited by yn0t_ (21/01/2004 12:42)
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#199583 - 21/01/2004 12:41 Re: Bush's positive qualities [Re: JeffS]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
It's not even the active superiority that bothers me. Those people were going to find something to be superior about, they just happened to choose that one. It's the people who are more passive about it -- the ones to whom it might not ever occur that they're being superior. The ones who dismiss things solely because they're different. It isn't an active campaign; it's just intentional disinterest. But it's fomented by the culture that I saw that told these people that they were better solely because they ``believe in Jesus''. All cultures should encourage people to expand -- to understand other things, but the culture I saw was very insular and implicitly encouraged dismissal.

My aunt, a basically good person who considers herself to be quite the Christian refuses to say the Apostle's Creed because it contains the phrase ``I believe in ... the holy catholic church'' because she refuses to acknowledge the Catholic church, despite the fact that catholic and Catholic are two quite different things. The other day she told me that Catholics didn't believe in Jesus. I don't even know where that comes from. I don't know if she's that ignorant or if she was confusing Catholicism with Judaism or what. The point is that she's gone to church basically every Sunday of all her years (she's about 70), claims to be a religious person, but doesn't know simple facts outside the tiny realm of her own denomination.
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Bitt Faulk

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#199584 - 21/01/2004 13:14 Re: Bush's positive qualities [Re: wfaulk]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
I could say a lot on the subject, but I’ll just note that you and I seem to agree here. There are many churches that seem to promote the idea that Christians are better than others, and people flock to this teaching. This is truly sad, for this attitude is diametrically opposed to the teaching of Jesus himself (that all people have fallen and are in need of grace), and that Christianity would be identified with it is sad irony.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#199585 - 21/01/2004 13:25 Re: Bush's positive qualities [Re: JeffS]
lopan
old hand

Registered: 28/01/2002
Posts: 970
Loc: Manassas VA
Jeff, just to clarify, I totally respect your faith...

Now your politics? Thats another story
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#199586 - 21/01/2004 13:36 Re: Bush's positive qualities [Re: lopan]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Now your politics? Thats another story
Ah well, I hate politics anyway

Why I join these discussions (and prolong them) is beyond me.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#199587 - 21/01/2004 13:39 Re: Bush's positive qualities [Re: JeffS]
TigerJimmy
old hand

Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
In my experience, those "many churches" could be defined as any church that holds a literal interpretation of the Christ story (Christ was *literally* born of a virgin and Christ *literally* ascended bodily to a place called Heaven, etc.). I have never seen someone believe that literal interpretation who did not also believe that those who did not were damned to an equally literal "Hell". The damned are, in that way at the very least, inferior to the "saved".

Of course, those statements are true of any fundamentalism (which is the same as holding a literal interpretation), and are the basis of the ethnocentric "fanatic" views that are the core of so much of the turmoil in the world. Literal fundamentalism is the problem, whether it is fundamental Islam, or Christianity, and needs to be held in check by more sophisticated views of the world.

I, too, was raised in a Christian family. For a long time, I felt that the whole thing was complete nonsense. Since then, I have significantly altered my opinions. I now believe that Christ (and many others) had particular insight into the human condition that is beyond the ability to express in langugage (a so-called Cosmic Consciousness experience, also known as a direct realization of "nonduality"). Unable to express this so-called "inexpressible", those who have such experiences explain them in metaphor. The metaphors are misunderstood by most people, since the metaphysical insights are rare, and literalized. Then the trouble starts.

I believe that over 99% of religious followers have never been exposed to the idea that the teachings are metaphorical. I have been told by Christian theologians that it is "blasphemy" even to suggest it.

It is a sad irony indeed. The "belief" actually keeps the followers from even *considering* what (in my opinion) is the "real" (metaphorical) teachings. Not only that, people consistenly prove how attached they are to their interpretations by being all too willing to kill for them.

The earlier distinction between "Thou shalt not kill" and "Thou shalt not murder" is telling: when we kill someone who is not part of our ethnocentric sect, it isn't murder, it is simply killing.

The world has become too small for that kind of thinking, whether it is from Osama bin Ladin or the President of the United States. That is not to say that lethal force is not sometimes justified, or even necessary, only that an ethnocentric view of the world should not be encouraged, regardless of the form.

Jim

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#199588 - 21/01/2004 13:44 Re: Bush's positive qualities [Re: TigerJimmy]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
It is a sad irony indeed. The "belief" actually keeps the followers from even *considering* what (in my opinion) is the "real" (metaphorical) teachings. Not only that, people consistenly prove how attached they are to their interpretations by being all too willing to kill for them.
This is spot-on. If the so-called believers took to heart the message of the teachings instead of picking apart each literal word and using it to buttress their own prejudices and desires, life would be a lot less complicated.
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#199589 - 21/01/2004 13:54 Re: Bush's positive qualities [Re: TigerJimmy]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Well I have to admit that I do believe in the literal bible and a literal hell. But I also believe that those who are “saved” are not necessarily better than those who are not. That would imply that Christ saved those people who exhibited behavior worthy of being saved, and the scripture is quite clear that salvation is by grace (unmerited favor) alone. So the only thing Christians can say to non-Christians is that they are missing out on the greatest love mankind can know. They cannot say, however, that not having faith makes them worse people than those who do not believe.

As far as your faith journey goes, Jim, it turns out I sort of went the opposite rout from you! At a very early age my parents really gave me a view of faith that was more “metaphorical” in nature. Through my own journey I decided upon the literal views that I hold now.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#199590 - 21/01/2004 13:54 Re: Bush's positive qualities [Re: TigerJimmy]
lopan
old hand

Registered: 28/01/2002
Posts: 970
Loc: Manassas VA
whoaa... thats deep man....
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#199591 - 21/01/2004 14:08 Re: Bush's positive qualities [Re: JeffS]
lopan
old hand

Registered: 28/01/2002
Posts: 970
Loc: Manassas VA
Through my own journey I decided upon the literal views that I hold now.

So I have to ask, do you believe in dinosaurs?
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#199592 - 21/01/2004 14:09 Re: Bush's positive qualities [Re: JeffS]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
But from what I’ve seen and experienced of the man I feel that I can trust his motives.
Speaking as a Christian who's somewhere between you and Bitt in my fervor, I look at what GWB has done, and find it the exact opposite of everything that I understand about Christianity.

God calls us to be a steward of the planet. GWB has raped 200 environmental laws designed to protect the planet.

Thou shalt not kill. Despite your assertion (I think it was you that wrote it), I've never seen that interpreted as "thou shalt not murder," until now. He's sent more people to the chair than any Texan gov. in history, has little regard for the slaughter of life due to the wars.

Speaking of which, what ever happened to "turn the other cheek"? Does no one understand why violence is a circle?

Oh, and Christ's admonishment to the rich man to give up his riches if he wanted to enter into heaven? GWB gave tax cuts to the rich.

Remember the sermon on the mount? Take a look at the qualities that Christ espoused, and see how GWB stacks up:
meek? Mr. Bring-em-on? Nope. Merciful? Nada. Pure in heart? Not when actions speak louder than words. Peacemaker? Hardly that -- he's operating two major theatres of war.

Then, there's the little matter of honesty, or, rather, his complete lack of it.

How about "let he who is without sin cast the first stone?" What do we have from Bush? Retribution. "Judge not, lest ye be judged yourself?" Oops, not showing much Christian value, there, either.

I cannot fathom how any Christian can look at that man, and see any shred of Christianity within him. Call a spade a spade. Look beyond his public pro-life, pro-family statements.

All I see is a man on a crusade for personal riches, masquerading it as a battle of righteousness. He is the complete antithesis of the Christian morality that I was brought up to believe in.


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#199593 - 21/01/2004 14:16 Re: Bush's positive qualities [Re: lopan]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
So I have to ask, do you believe in dinosaurs?
Yes.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#199594 - 21/01/2004 14:34 Re: Bush's positive qualities [Re: JeffS]
lopan
old hand

Registered: 28/01/2002
Posts: 970
Loc: Manassas VA
I know several devout Christians that don't, I don't understand that.
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