#200806 - 27/01/2004 21:40
Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Thanks Al Franken for supporting the freedom of speech of someone who has their own PR machine and appears on TV 24/7 giving speeches and engaging in debates. We all know that Dean hasn't had a chance at expressing himself.
Remember people, freedom of speach only applies to Democrats. I know you were probably taught in high school that freedom of speach was to prevent the government from restricting expression of individuals, either public or private. And I'm sure you learned that there are limitations to that right to protect the rights of others (ie, you can't yell "FIRE!" in a crowded movie theater). NEWS FLASH: It no longer has anything to do with the government anymore. Now, it means that, as a private citizen, you are not allowed to interupt a Democrat. Don't worry, you can still picket and heckle Bush's speaches, that's differant. Don't ask how, it just is. Oh, and if you own a radio station or record company, that means you have money, so you're evil. And that means that you no longer have the freedom to dictate what message your medium puts out. So you are required, by Congress to play the Dixie Chicks even if you don't want to and even if your listeners don't want you to. Don't worry, you can refuse to play Rush Limbaugh, that's differant. Don't ask how, it just is.
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Brad B.
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#200807 - 27/01/2004 21:59
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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addict
Registered: 13/07/2002
Posts: 634
Loc: Jesusland
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Too Funny!
From what I've seen and heard this guy is a real jerk; his actions are speaking much louder than his words.
Edited by Jerz (27/01/2004 22:03)
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#200808 - 27/01/2004 22:10
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
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That Dean clip sounds like a wrestling match 
You know this thread will be a flame war since most of the people (not me) on here are liberals right
(or maybe just the most vocal )
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Matt
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#200809 - 27/01/2004 22:18
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: msaeger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Yeah, I was bummed cuz I used to love Franken on SNL. Oh well, same thing happened when I heard Britney Spears talk. Ruined it. 
I know that the vocal ones are mostly liberal. Conservatives were probably more vocal during Clinton, I guess it's natural. Nobody voted Democrat during the last round of Congress votes, and most governorships are going Republican too (even California?) so I guess I'd be a little irked too.
I've been good about not getting into the flame wars. I like the people that start them too much to let politics get in the way of my empeg friendships. Kinda like "If I don't have anything nice to say, I'll stay out of the thread".
We'll see what happens here. 
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Brad B.
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#200810 - 27/01/2004 22:20
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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I've been good about not getting into the flame wars. I like the people that start them too much to let politics get in the way of my empeg friendships.
I refrained from commenting in the "how about Kerry" thread for that reason, approximately. My opinion is "anybody but Bush", and you won't convince me otherwise. I suspect I won't convince you of my viewpoint, either, so there's no point in fliailing wildly about it...
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#200811 - 27/01/2004 22:23
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: Daria]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Hey, I can respect that.
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Brad B.
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#200812 - 27/01/2004 22:44
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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But I will say the George W action figure on the Daily Show ("Show us where the WMD reports touched you.") seemed more intelligent than the Dennis Miller action figure that's going to be on Tough Crowd.
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#200813 - 27/01/2004 23:47
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
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I've been good about not getting into the flame wars. I like the people that start them too much to let politics get in the way of my empeg friendships. Kinda like "If I don't have anything nice to say, I'll stay out of the thread".
That is what I have been doing too. Thats why I wish we had a political forum so it would be easier to ignore.
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Matt
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#200814 - 28/01/2004 00:08
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: msaeger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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I think Tony Fabris should get a medal for his ability to never get involved in them! But are bots political by nature?
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Brad B.
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#200815 - 28/01/2004 00:09
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: msaeger]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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Perhaps a religion forum too. Although most of the religious/political discussions rarely start out as such.
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#200816 - 28/01/2004 00:12
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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BTW, weird bug on your first post. When I mouse over the link (expressing yourself) , it starts copying itself over and over and over..... (Netscp 7.1)
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#200817 - 28/01/2004 00:13
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: lectric]
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veteran
Registered: 19/06/2000
Posts: 1495
Loc: US: CA
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That happens to me every so often too. I kept meaning to post about it, just never have.
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Donato MkII/080000565 MkIIa/010101253 ricin.us
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#200818 - 28/01/2004 00:13
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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most governorships are going Republican too (even California?) Califonia did not "go Republican"... it went for sex appeal.
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#200819 - 28/01/2004 01:29
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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> Don't worry, you can still picket and heckle Bush's speaches, that's differant.
Actually, you can't heckle Bush's speeches. He has the secret service cordone off anyone with an opposing viewpoint as far away from him as possible and arrests anyone who leaves it to heckle him directly.
So much for your "Democratic only" free speech argument. At least in this case it was one misguided individual instead of the police suppressing free speech, heh?
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5004.htm
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Ninti - MK IIa 60GB Smoke, 30GB, 10GB
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#200820 - 28/01/2004 02:28
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
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I know that the vocal ones are mostly liberal Please be more specific. Do you mean historically or in one instant you are discussing?
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Matt
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#200821 - 28/01/2004 07:23
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: msaeger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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You know this thread will be a flame war Of course I'm one of the ones who loves to talk about religion/politics, so I'd like to point out I've never considered any of our discussions "flame wars". Just differing points of view argued with fervor. But I think of flame wars as being more about character assassination than actually debating a topic intelligently.
Of course, I understand wanting to steer clear either way, but the one reason I enjoy discussing politics/religion here is that people tend to leave personal insults out of their points- a rare atmosphere indeed.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#200822 - 28/01/2004 07:49
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: lectric]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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I tried to fix that link, I can see where's it's coming from (a "get" command was put in there from the page I copied it from) but it's too old to edit it out.  Sorry.
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Brad B.
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#200823 - 28/01/2004 07:54
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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I just mean that historically, when a "group" is out of power, they tend to spend more of they time being upset about it (as conservatives did during Clinton's stay). It's kind of similar to people only posting on a BBS when their Karma or empeg is broken. When it works, they are too content to bother posting (mlord being an exception, but that was his point.)
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Brad B.
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#200824 - 28/01/2004 08:05
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: ninti]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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ninti, That's an interesting link. Thanks for posting it. I've heard plenty of stories (and read) where Bush WAS heckled during a speach and he chuckles making the comment "isn't free-speach great?" Clinton made the same remark when he was heckled.
But just because some picketers can't get within earshot of the President of The United States for "security reasons" doesn't mean that someone with anti-Bush (funny how it's never "pro-this" or "pro-that" it's just "anti-Bush") viewpoints isn't getting to express their opinion. I mean, do you see any other views on the nightly news? Those are the people getting "man on the street" interviews left and reight. And they still get to picket the white house, etc.
If a "mob" or large group of people showed up at that Dean speach, I think they'd most likey deserver to have their freedom of speach temporarily removed because they would be disrupting the peace and truely denying Dean his. But one guy? As if any of those people were listening to him anyway.
EDIT: Forgot this bit... The original intent of my post was to point out how the concept of "freedom of speech" is starting to apply only to "freedom of politically correct speech" and how it's losing its meaning in the public (ie, MTV blocking thong shots is "self censorship" of their channel, not "denying freedome of speech" for Snoop Dogg).
And pointing out one "wrong" to justify another isn't a strong arguement. But, again, I feel that the security of the Commander in Cheif out weighs the freedom of some people to comprismise that, especially when they can still get their message out. If it were just one person (as in the Dean case) that wasn't allowed in because of his/her views, yes that would be wrong. But that still wouldnt make Al Franken anything but a celebrity dip-shit.
Edited by SE_Sport_Driver (28/01/2004 08:13)
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Brad B.
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#200825 - 28/01/2004 09:04
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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old hand
Registered: 17/07/2001
Posts: 721
Loc: Boston, MA USA
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Speaking of freedoms, have you guys see the anti-Bush Superbowl ad that CBS is refusing to run? It really is great. See it (and others) here
The ad is called "Child's Play" and was the winner of a contest on www.bushin30seconds.com
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//matt
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#200826 - 28/01/2004 09:12
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: ithoughti]
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enthusiast
Registered: 08/08/2000
Posts: 351
Loc: chicago
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Yup. This was a project sponsored by MoveOn.org. Nice work.
BTW, while CBS feels the ad is "too controversial", we will get to enjoy pro-Bush political advertising, three ads for erectile dysfunction meds, and the usual raft of alcohol and tobacco advertising.
"Daddy, what's erectile dysfunction?"
--Dan.
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#200827 - 28/01/2004 09:19
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: djc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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BTW, while CBS feels the ad is "too controversial", we will get to enjoy pro-Bush political advertising, three ads for erectile dysfunction meds, and the usual raft of alcohol and tobacco advertising.
"Daddy, what's erectile dysfunction?" Something caused by alcohol advertising?
Peter
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#200828 - 28/01/2004 09:30
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: djc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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That was the NFL's call, not CBS.
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Brad B.
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#200829 - 28/01/2004 09:35
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: JeffS]
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old hand
Registered: 28/01/2002
Posts: 970
Loc: Manassas VA
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Of course I'm one of the ones who loves to talk about religion/politics
Me too, but like you I never really considered them flames... More like heated debates which really, for me, help my understanding of "the other side". I do tend to get fired up about politics these days, which is odd, up until just recently I was always bored out of my skull when talking politics.
One note related to this particular discussion, Al Franken is kind of freak, doesn't define the democratic party as a whole.
I just mean that historically, when a "group" is out of power, they tend to spend more of they time being upset about it (as conservatives did during Clinton's stay).
Agreed, however not always the case, I'm still agitated at the democrats for not dragging Bush's drug history, DUI's, and all the other dirt that was readily available to them. In fact I've never understood why that stuff was never really even a big deal.
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Brett
60Gb MK2a with Led's
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#200830 - 28/01/2004 09:43
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: lopan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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They did raise that stuff on Bush in during the 2000 elections. I remember hearing about it quite a bit. People didn't take interest in it, and it faded. Perhaps they felt 2-sided by caring about that while saying that Clinton "just inhaling" was no biggy. Maybe Senator Kennedy doesn't want to mention anything about drinking and driving, who knows.
But you're bummed out that stuff like that isn't brought up and dragged through the dirt? You like ditry politics? Were you mad, like most of us, that Clinton's private sex life was front page?
Thank God that Al Franken doesn't represent any US political party!
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Brad B.
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#200831 - 28/01/2004 09:47
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: peter]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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"Daddy, what's erectile dysfunction?"
Something caused by alcohol advertising?
Actually, it's the alcohol, not the alcohol advertising!
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#200832 - 28/01/2004 09:52
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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old hand
Registered: 28/01/2002
Posts: 970
Loc: Manassas VA
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But you're bummed out that stuff like that isn't brought up and dragged through the dirt? You like ditry politics? Were you mad, like most of us, that Clinton's private sex life was front page?
Now your just pushing buttons .... No I don't like dirty politics, just seemed a bit one sided, they beat a dead horse into the ground over Clintons (weed use), the went overboard with the sex scandal. Bush was arrested for DUI, arrested in 72 for cocaine possesion, the list goes on and on, it was brought up.... but people/press seemed to avoid it or simply not care. Once again, just seems a little one sided to me.
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Brett
60Gb MK2a with Led's
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#200833 - 28/01/2004 10:01
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: lopan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
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Could it be that one of them was man enough to admit it while the other spewed lame excuses and lies?
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~ John
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#200834 - 28/01/2004 10:04
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I hope Al Franken is arrested for it. In fact, I hope that guy sues the f*ck out of Al Franken.
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#200835 - 28/01/2004 10:07
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: lopan]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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Well, IMHO, the sex scandal to me is a non-issue. It's the lying to a federal grand jury about it that makes me distrust him so. Dirty laundry is aired all the time. It's how the public reacts to it that matters. As far as the pot thing, again, I would have more respect for someone that says "yeah, I tried pot when I was 18, 35 years ago" than someone that says "I didn't inhale". Come on. You didn't inhale? Who honestly believes that?
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#200836 - 28/01/2004 10:14
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: lectric]
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old hand
Registered: 28/01/2002
Posts: 970
Loc: Manassas VA
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Yeah I always thought Clinton was basically an idiot when dealing with the press. I'll cover lies in the next post
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Brett
60Gb MK2a with Led's
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#200837 - 28/01/2004 10:23
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: JBjorgen]
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old hand
Registered: 28/01/2002
Posts: 970
Loc: Manassas VA
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here goes... Man enough to admit the truth? Yeah clinton was stupid but Bush? Bush won't admit to being arrested for cocaine, bush started by saying mistakes during youth, then switched to I won't address rumors, now he just has people arrested that try to ask questions like that...
You can look at some of the posts a while back when the whole Iraq thing started, I supported it 100%. I actually believed the media machine, but it was a sad day for me when I realized our president had manipulated the entire country's fear for oil, sorry I think Bush takes the cake for lying. But I do have to give him credit, he's apparently good at it, the majority of Republicans refuse to admit he's at fault.
I really have to stop letting myself be pulled into these discussions
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Brett
60Gb MK2a with Led's
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#200838 - 28/01/2004 10:23
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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LOL, is it me or does page 3 of this thread not show up? I just got email notification that d33 zy replied to me and "poof" it's invisible.
i guess it goes with what I was saying... d33 zy has been "censored" because it is Drakino's right to express himself however he likes on his BBS. d33 zy is not being denied his freemdom of speech because this is a private BBS.
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Brad B.
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#200839 - 28/01/2004 10:30
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: ithoughti]
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addict
Registered: 13/07/2002
Posts: 634
Loc: Jesusland
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Here's a Howard Dean one that's pretty funny. Not a televised commercial but funny none the less. It's on the intro movie to Glenn Beck's website at www.glennbeck.com
It does require sound.
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#200840 - 28/01/2004 10:30
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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LOL, is it me or does page 3 of this thread not show up? I just got email notification that d33 zy replied to me and "poof" it's invisible. The BBS does go a bit weird when we're denied access to a post -- the count of pages is done as if the inaccessible post were there, but the count of pages as if it weren't.
i guess it goes with what I was saying... d33 zy has been "censored" because it is Drakino's right to express himself however he likes on his BBS. d33 zy is not being denied his freemdom of speech because this is a private BBS. Spending time on the Riovolution board has made me realise how unobtrusive the moderation on this BBS is by comparison... although anyone who's looked at the list of posts in Yz 33d's user profile recently might disagree. Perhaps seeing Yz33 d's posts could be a configuration option, like seeing signatures?
Peter
Edited by peter (28/01/2004 10:37)
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#200841 - 28/01/2004 10:37
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: Jerz]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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lol, I love the punchline there!
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Brad B.
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#200842 - 28/01/2004 10:43
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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old hand
Registered: 28/01/2002
Posts: 970
Loc: Manassas VA
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d33 zy has been "censored" because it is Drakino's right to express himself however he likes on his BBS.
I'm a firm believer in freedom of speech, but when someone makes a habit of spouting off racial slurs that pretty much are made to offend 100% of the people that read them, it's time to draw the line.
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Brett
60Gb MK2a with Led's
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#200843 - 28/01/2004 10:49
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: lopan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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lopan, peter, I hope you don't think I was complaining. I think it's Drakino's right to do so. I just thought itwas funny that it happened in this thead.
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Brad B.
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#200844 - 28/01/2004 10:52
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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freedom of speach only applies to Democrats I'm confused. He silenced a Lyndon LaRouche supporter. LaRouche is running for the Democratic nomination.
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Bitt Faulk
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#200845 - 28/01/2004 10:52
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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It actually happened a couple of weeks ago.
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Bitt Faulk
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#200846 - 28/01/2004 10:55
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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old hand
Registered: 28/01/2002
Posts: 970
Loc: Manassas VA
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no no no.... not complaining, I'm the king of whiney ass complaining, and you my friend are not complaining. I'm actually torn on that issue, the guy has made some contributions here to conversation, but repeatedly and purposefully pushes waaaay to far. What do ya do? I think in this instance it's right. But still, it's a hard call.
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Brett
60Gb MK2a with Led's
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#200848 - 28/01/2004 11:36
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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I'm confused. He silenced a Lyndon LaRouche supporter. LaRouche is running for the Democratic nomination. Hey man, never let the facts get in the way of a good rant!
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#200849 - 28/01/2004 11:36
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I think Tony Fabris should get a medal for his ability to never get involved in them! But are bots political by nature? It's merely political ignorance that keeps me out of most such discussions.
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#200850 - 28/01/2004 11:41
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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It's merely political ignorance that keeps me out of most such discussions. Dude, you live in a state led by the Kindergarten Cop. I don't blame you.
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#200851 - 28/01/2004 13:47
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
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I just mean that historically, when a "group" is out of power, they tend to spend more of they time being upset about it (as conservatives did during Clinton's stay). Do you basically mean that the group in power is always being rocked by the group that isn't? If so, then good, because I would have been suprised if you thought it was as one-sided as your post seemed.
And remember, for every Franken there's also an O'Reilly.
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Matt
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#200853 - 28/01/2004 14:13
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Well, it's my bad for not knowing who was doing the heckling, but I wouldn't call my post one sided. I voted for Nader, but I support Bush. So don't pigeon hole me yet. I'm a vegetarian because of animal rights, but I'm against abortion. I'm for gun control but I support lower taxes. I'm against capital punishment but I don't want the legalization of pot. One-sided? I'll leave that up to others to decide, but at least I'm not following some policital party's doctrine to the T.
I was simply commenting on the loss of the definition of "freedom of speech." I think it's an abused term. And I never said that it was bad for an out-of-power group to be vocal. Try getting away with that outside of most Western societies.
Conservatives and Liberals both hate O'Reilly because he doesn't subscibe to 100% of either side, so I wish there were far more O'Reillys.
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Brad B.
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#200854 - 28/01/2004 14:33
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Personally, I hate O'Reilly because he's an obnoxious asshole who purports to run a talk show, but spends more time poorly promoting his own views than those of his guests, interrupting and dismissing his guests when they don't agree with him. Given that I don't really care what Bill O'Reilly thinks, I simply don't watch him, but his overexposure and unavoidableness cause me to hate everything about him, much like I hate reality TV programming.
I hate most things that George Will and William F. Buckley stand for, but they state their case well and non-histrionically, so I don't hate them. (Though Will has become increasingly reactionary over the years.) On the other hand, I agree with much of what Penn and Teller have to say in Bullshit, but they usually present it so incompetently that it's offensive.
Edited by wfaulk (28/01/2004 14:37)
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Bitt Faulk
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#200855 - 28/01/2004 15:16
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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> But just because some picketers can't get within earshot of the President of The United States for "security reasons"
I don't really think it is for security reasons, he just doesn't want the bad photo op of him and protestors in the same shot. Kinda the same reason he banned cameras from the ceremonies of dead soldiers in flag draped caskets being removed from the planes home because the pictures of all the dead soldiers might make Americans rethink this war. Besides, the protestors are not a real security threat I would think, if someone wanted to do harm to the president, I doubt very highly they would be carrying an anti-Bush banner and making themselves be noticed by shouting slogans. They are going to blend in with the crowd until they can get to a point where they can hurt him. I don't see any way this can be characterized as a security issue.
> The original intent of my post was to point out how the concept of "freedom of speech" is starting to apply only to "freedom of politically correct speech"
Tell that to all the war protestors that were called traitors repeatedly because they dared express an opinion different than that of the president. Yes, I agree that some liberals are doing exactly what you say they do, but they are hardly the only side trying to suppress free speech because they are merely unhappy with it. That certainly does not make it right no matter who does it, free speech is for everyone, no matter how abhorrent their views [insert Voltaire quote]. As much as [censored] annoys me for instance, I would not personally choose to shut him up.
I certainly have to agree that what Al Franken did was very wrong, and almost certainly assault and battery to boot. I am very dissappointed in him, I had thought better of him than that.
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Ninti - MK IIa 60GB Smoke, 30GB, 10GB
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#200856 - 28/01/2004 15:46
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: ninti]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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You're missing the point. Calling protestors "traitors" isn't violating their freedom of speech. They are using the same right as you. This isn't grade school where we all raise our hands and get 5 minutes to talk.
Also your Kinda the same reason he banned cameras from the ceremonies of dead soldiers in flag draped caskets being removed from the planes home because the pictures of all the dead soldiers might make Americans rethink this war. was a policy that Clinton had in place too. It is nothing new.
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Brad B.
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#200857 - 28/01/2004 16:13
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Hold back, there. I was merely speaking about your post, not your general opinion. I said your post seemed one-sided because, as I was saying, it was worded to imply something I gather you didn't mean. You said: I know that the vocal ones are mostly liberal. Conservatives were probably more vocal during Clinton, I guess it's natural. Nobody voted Democrat during the last round of Congress votes, and most governorships are going Republican too (even California?) so I guess I'd be a little irked too. This simply reads as one-sided without the clarification that I asked you for. That's all I'm saying, that it wasn't clear to me. I didn't mean to offend, just to clarify.
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Matt
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#200858 - 28/01/2004 16:23
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Ah.. okay, sorry I got defensive there. My bad AGAIN (and I'm embarrised over no knowing who Al tackled).
On a lighter note, I just noticed that your creature is running on Mars! whoa! Sorry, OT.
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Brad B.
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#200859 - 28/01/2004 16:29
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Lol! Yeah, Zeke made that in celebration of the landing. I guess I should change it back now that we no longer have our own creature running around up there
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Matt
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#200860 - 28/01/2004 16:39
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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addict
Registered: 24/07/2003
Posts: 500
Loc: Colorado, N.A.
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know you were probably taught in high school ... that means you have money, so you're evil. No, we're not allowed to be taught that in school, because it comes straight from the Bible.
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-- DLF
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#200861 - 28/01/2004 16:40
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: peter]
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addict
Registered: 24/07/2003
Posts: 500
Loc: Colorado, N.A.
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Perhaps seeing [censored]'s posts could be a configuration option, like seeing signatures? Or porn.
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-- DLF
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#200862 - 28/01/2004 16:42
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: tfabris]
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addict
Registered: 24/07/2003
Posts: 500
Loc: Colorado, N.A.
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It's merely political ignorance that keeps me out of most such discussions. Hey, why should it Tony, when it doesn't keep the rest of us out?
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-- DLF
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#200863 - 28/01/2004 16:46
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: DLF]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Hey, why should it Tony, when it doesn't keep the rest of us out? Good point. I'm often happy to pontificate on stuff that I know nothing about. Not sure why I avoid politics when I'm happy to talk about religion. Ah well...
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#200864 - 28/01/2004 16:47
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: wfaulk]
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addict
Registered: 24/07/2003
Posts: 500
Loc: Colorado, N.A.
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If I may borrow a Rush-ism:
DITTO.
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-- DLF
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#200865 - 28/01/2004 17:51
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: DLF]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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#200866 - 28/01/2004 19:33
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: DLF]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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If I may borrow a Rush-ism:
DITTO.
Hmmm... not familiar with that one. Was that Geddy or Alex that said that? Or maybe Neil?
tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#200867 - 28/01/2004 21:19
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Hmmm... not familiar with that one. Was that Geddy or Alex that said that? Or maybe Neil? Well it'd have to be Neil as he writes 99% of their lyrics! Can't seem to find it though . . . Would you believe I had this same thought (well not exactly the same thought, but I thought of the band first).
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#200868 - 29/01/2004 08:25
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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#200869 - 31/01/2004 13:44
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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So it turns out this story, and everything you got mad about, was complete and utter bullshit. The NY Post article failed to mention that Franken got struck first by this very violent guy and he was defending himself.
http://www.alfrankenweb.com/pramsey.html
http://www.alfrankenweb.com/index.html
Wow, I knew the conservative media lies every time they write anything at all, but I underestimated them even now. They completely left out all the details and made Franken look like the agressor. The thought that Franken would have done this as they said was ludicrous, and I bought it hook line and sinker anyway. You know, Franken spent some time ragging on the Post in his last book, and I guess this is payback; they have have done an excellent job of smearing him without actually lying outright just by quoting him out of context and giving a distorted and incomplete version of the story.
I am ashamed I doubted Franken. This is exactly the kind of thing he exposes so well in Lies And The Lying Liars Who Tell Them. I apparently have not learned the lessons he has presented about the conservatives consistant lying.
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Ninti - MK IIa 60GB Smoke, 30GB, 10GB
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#200870 - 31/01/2004 14:37
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: ninti]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Do you have any other source besides Al Franken's personal web page?
"The Conservative Media" lol. I love parody.
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Brad B.
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#200871 - 31/01/2004 16:01
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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> Do you have any other source besides Al Franken's personal web page?
The first hand account from the club owner was not enough for you, eh? In fact, it is interesting, pretty much only the conservative media covered this story; other than the Newsmax and the Post, only the paper The Union Leader seems to have covered it. Could it be the Post and Newsmax have something of a personal vendetta against the guy who publicly humiliated them by exposing all of their lies? Nah, couldn't be.
> "The Conservative Media" lol. I love parody.
Oh, you are one of those people who actually believes Fox's "Fair and balanced" BS? You really should read Franken's book, he shows in great detail how the huge mega-corporations who own all the media in this country are indeed, not surprisingly, actually pretty conservative.
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Ninti - MK IIa 60GB Smoke, 30GB, 10GB
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#200872 - 01/02/2004 02:37
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: ninti]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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It's important to note that the major networks are all fairly liberally biased, although they do a better job of presenting the news in an unbiased manner, something which the conservative sources don't even attempt to do, even if they pay it lip service.
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Bitt Faulk
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#200873 - 01/02/2004 11:39
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Bitt, I think that's a fair way of putting it. I was pretty liberal during college while I studied broadcast journalism as a major and I was shocked at how anti-US and liberal (not always the same thing) the professors are, and they are training the people that go into these feilds. Libs are smart! They're using "Trickle-down Economics for Social Change". hehe.
I think many of us would argue that a) You can count the number of conservative national news outlets using just your thumbs Fox News and Washington Times. Where as liberal outlets include the big 3 networks, NYT, LA Times, all but one cable news network, etc etc. and b) Conservative outlets only seem so conservative because we're so used to liberal coverage. Depending on where you personally view "the center" to be, it will make you view coverage as biased one way or another. And who in the world doesn't grow up seeing themselves as "average" and "middle of the road"? The funny thing is that you and I (and the others here) care enough about this stuff to post and debate it while the other 70% of America doesn't give two shits about it! Maybe we should be asking them!
Someone here proved this when they complained of seeing O'Reilly (who is hated by many conservatives) everywhere. They "couldn't escape him!" He has a one or two hour TV show on one channel, one current book amoung hundreds at the stores and a 2 hour radio show. I mean, if you don't watch Fox News anyway, and are busy listening to your empeg, the only way you'd be exposed to him is if you were given his book for Christmas (oops, X-Mas).
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Brad B.
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#200874 - 01/02/2004 12:57
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I don't think that most people would consider the Washington Times a quality source of news, regardless of bias. FOX News is better.
The problem is that a few years ago, I think people would have been fairly correct in saying that the news media is liberally biased, but there have been so many conservative sources pop up since then, even if they are relatively small, that it's evened out. But the conservative sources are so vocal, it feels like they're in the majority now, and I'd say they have a greater impact because of that vocalness (and, often, panderingness). There are basically no vocal liberal pundits. There need to be some.
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Bitt Faulk
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#200875 - 01/02/2004 12:58
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Enter: Al Franken w. Michael Moore.
Edit: Washington Times is crap. I much prefer the Washington Post.
Edited by SE_Sport_Driver (01/02/2004 12:59)
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Brad B.
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#200876 - 01/02/2004 15:09
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Do people consider CNN conservative or liberal? I've always seen it as being pretty conservative myself.
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Matt
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#200877 - 01/02/2004 15:25
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: Dignan]
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addict
Registered: 13/07/2002
Posts: 634
Loc: Jesusland
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Do people consider CNN conservative or liberal? I've always seen it as being pretty conservative myself.
Actually, most conservatives that I know call CNN the "Communist News Network" so to answer your question yes it is considered a liberal news source.
But then again my mother-in-law makes the libs on this board seem conservative.
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#200878 - 01/02/2004 15:30
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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It certainly depends on who you ask. Maybe people can't shake the fact that Jane Fonda and Ted Turner started the station, and they're well known as being liberal. There is also the bit where CNN was hiding information Hussiens brutality so they could keep their offices in Baghdad, even enableing Saddam's sons to kill two family members that were intending on providing information to the West.
Personally, I always like Headline News except that you only get 1 min on each story.
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Brad B.
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#200879 - 01/02/2004 16:48
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
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I suppose I've just seen people on there who are too conservative for my tastes. I can't stand Candy Crowley.
But give me Erica Hill and I'll watch CNN all day long
And yeah, CNN is annoying because you get the exact same story every 10 minutes.
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Matt
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#200880 - 01/02/2004 17:50
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Well, in their defense, it was either report on the rest of Iraq and hope to squeak some info on the brutality out or get closed down and have no real news from there at all. It's a bad choice to have to make, but I think it was the only one that they could have made.
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Bitt Faulk
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#200881 - 01/02/2004 18:39
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Tell that to Saddam's two murdered son-in-laws. I admit it's a tough decision but I think that the bigger story was given up for more coverage. I guess it's a lose/lose situation.
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Brad B.
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#200882 - 02/02/2004 12:12
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: wfaulk]
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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> It's important to note that the major networks are all fairly liberally biased
Well, since I don't watch network news I admit I can not refute that personally. All I have to say is that Franken devotes 3 chapters to the supposed liberal media bias, and using the example of the 2000 election, shows how the media ignored the bad things Bush did and lied about and smeared Gore endlessly. He does a quite convincing job of showing, using statistics and going over things the media said point by point, that it is complete hogwash.
He then proceeds to show the media's true biases of laziness, sensationalism, greed, fitting events into already established story lines, and a jump on the bandwagon mentality. The media did not hammer Clinton about getting a blowjob in the white house and let Bush get a free ride about all of his ties to shady businesses practices because they have a conservative bias, they did so because one is titilating and one is pretty boring.
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Ninti - MK IIa 60GB Smoke, 30GB, 10GB
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#200883 - 02/02/2004 12:19
Re: Freedom of speech, defined by Al Franken
[Re: ninti]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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That's certainly all true. I think sometimes the vaguely liberally biased media tries to correct itself and bends back too far and avoids anti-conservative stories or harps on anti-liberal stories. More the former, I think.
But you're certainly right in that the bigger bias is in trying to get more viewers or increase readership (read ``make more money''). In other words, sex sells.
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Bitt Faulk
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