#21145 - 26/10/2000 04:33
SDAL
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enthusiast
Registered: 29/09/2000
Posts: 313
Loc: Belgium/Holland
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Aha,
I just got the PSF specification manual for the SDAL format from NavTech. And even better, I found some people in Holland who work for NavTech. One step closer to an EmNav package I say...
Anybody still working on this _actively_ ?
Hans
Mk2 - Blue - 080000431
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#21146 - 26/10/2000 18:05
Re: SDAL
[Re: EngelenH]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Last I saw, Kim was still working on this, and I had talked to him about SDAL. Unfortunatley it's not in Kim's area, so he has no real way of testing if it works if implemented on the empeg.
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#21147 - 27/10/2000 04:28
Re: SDAL
[Re: EngelenH]
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old hand
Registered: 30/07/2000
Posts: 879
Loc: Germany (Ruhrgebiet)
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Hello Hans. Though I hardly have any time to do so, I am still _very_ interested in developing an empeg based navigation system. I am trying (but not very successful as it seems) to keep http://www.sourceforge.org/project/nav-em/ up to date. Currently, Iīm still researching on map formats, so your info did help me alot. My approach to this project is the following:
- Research and evaluate possible map sources
- make a decent software design, keeping map handling (importing that is) apart from navigation routines apart from user interface.
- start actual coding
I know that not going the way of rapid prototyping is somewhat against established open source procedures, but due to the complexity of a navigation system, I am convinced that this is the better way for this.
As for the SDAL format specs, I must admit I am eager to implement the needed routines to read (and display) the database. However, it is probably not really appropriate for use within navīem. The reason is that navtech prohibits redistribution of the format specs (probably even of source that is capable of handling the format appropriately and might easily been reverse engineered). There might be two ways around this though:
- Implement a library that is capable of reading SDAL data, and is itself distributed as binary only
- Implement a database conversion program (distributed binary only again) that converts SDAL data to data in "our" own format
Any other thoughts? cu, sven (MkII 12GB blue, #080000113)
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#21148 - 27/10/2000 14:28
Re: SDAL
[Re: smu]
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enthusiast
Registered: 29/09/2000
Posts: 313
Loc: Belgium/Holland
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You are right. Using SDAL (or rather the complete cd's from NavTech) itself is not a good idea for a number of reasons I would say.. Most importantly the fact that the cd's contain more information then we need. But then there is also the complexity issue. I personally was thinking of using some established database format if only for the fact that this would make it much easier to work with.
What worries me most are the licensing issues though.
Do you actually have access to the NavTech papers?
Cheers,
Hans
Mk2 - Blue - 080000431
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#21149 - 28/10/2000 10:48
Re: SDAL
[Re: EngelenH]
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old hand
Registered: 30/07/2000
Posts: 879
Loc: Germany (Ruhrgebiet)
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Hello Hans. To be honest: No, I havenīt checked the navtech docs yet (didnīt find the time to go through all that legal stuff I tend to read before I click "I agree"). But I did get some sample data in that format (or at least the person who sent the data to me said it was), and had a (very) brief look at it today. As far as I can see, the whole database is kept as a plain text file. Though this might be great for editing and human reading, it certainly ainīt no good for use on the empeg, mainly because of tightness of memory, but also for speed reasons. Just some quick thoughts though.  cu, sven (MkII 12GB blue, #080000113)
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#21150 - 29/10/2000 02:53
Re: SDAL
[Re: smu]
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new poster
Registered: 27/10/2000
Posts: 5
Loc: Lewedorp Netherlands
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Hi
I did some programming on the SDAL format, as a result of receiving the book. It is a difficult and complex binary format. BUT: They have thought about it, and build a working navigation system with it. The format is "FREELY" available (www.sdalformat.org). The databases are optimized for size and speed of handling. (benelux 300MB (detailed), europe 180MB (low detail).).
I am willing to donate my code to opensource navigation projects. I do not have enough time to enhance this code.
In my point of view SDAL is a very good start for a navigation system, mostly because there is proof that this can work.
I would like to see converters from GDF to SDAL (and back). and from eg. CARINDB to GDF. With these tools one can convert his Carin databases to one uniform format (SDAL).
Another approach could be write independent database access routines for SDAL and Carin databases. It is absolutely necessary that one can use the most actual databases for his area.
Prices for navigation databases are less than hfl 400 (euro 180) for most european countries.
ad franse
interested in board computers
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#21151 - 29/10/2000 04:40
Re: SDAL
[Re: adfranse]
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enthusiast
Registered: 29/09/2000
Posts: 313
Loc: Belgium/Holland
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Ad is right, it is freely available. But at the same time reproduction of the book you get is not allowed. Not being a lawyer of profession I can not help but wonder what exactly I am allowed to do with the book and code-examples therein... Guess I will have to read that stuff carefully though. But again, the legal issues is not the only thing that I think we have to consider. Space and memory restrictions are of concern too. The 300 MB detailed info for the Benelux Ad mentions probably contains (haven't seen the actual cd's myself yet) several Mb's of data we will not need for the em-nav. Map display data for instance, I don't see us using that much ... This is one thing I like about SDAL though, it has seperate data files for route calculation and map display (or at least thats what the book suggests )... Ad, what exactly have you made that uses the SDAL format, and do you happen to know if there is any sample SDAL data I could take a look at floating around somewhere ? Cheers, Hans Mk2 - Blue - 080000431
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#21152 - 29/10/2000 13:49
Re: SDAL
[Re: EngelenH]
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new poster
Registered: 27/10/2000
Posts: 5
Loc: Lewedorp Netherlands
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Hi Hans,
Actually, an SDAL disk is made up of a number of files in a (country) directory. each language consists of 2 files F.sdl M.sdl (F=Female, M=Male). Languages are:
dut dutch
eng english
fre french
ger german
jpn japan
spa spain
uke uk english
and the data is in n different files (n >= 2) 0.sdl and 1.sdl (eg. for benelux 0.sdl = 153.600 bytes, 1.sdl = 300.656.640) the definition states (see page: 1-18 up to max 48 region files).
You need the complete file if you want to do map display, vehicle positioning, geocoding, route calculation end route guidance.
I think I want all of the above. You are NOT limited to the empeg screen. The palm (or any other computer-alike device that can communicate with the empeg) can display the info you need, allowing the empeg to act as a server for this data.
300MB is 5% of 6GB, 2,5% of 12GB and 1,25% of 18GB where are we talking about. Reducing the dataset-image size will allow you to omit the POI (points of interest) info.
ad
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#21153 - 29/10/2000 13:54
Re: SDAL
[Re: EngelenH]
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new poster
Registered: 27/10/2000
Posts: 5
Loc: Lewedorp Netherlands
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Hi music experts
What is the exact format of a windows .wav file that contains IMA ADPCM mono 4 bits/sample 11.025 kHz ?
This is the .sdl voice format (bit without the header).
ad
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#21154 - 29/10/2000 14:08
Re: SDAL
[Re: EngelenH]
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new poster
Registered: 27/10/2000
Posts: 5
Loc: Lewedorp Netherlands
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Q: Is SDAL Format an open standard?
A: Yes. The technical specification of SDAL Format is now publicly available for review. Interested parties can register online to request a copy. If manufacturers wish to implement the SDAL Format PSF Specification, they will be able to do so royalty-free.
from q&a www.sdalformat.com
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#21155 - 29/10/2000 15:30
Re: SDAL
[Re: adfranse]
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enthusiast
Registered: 29/09/2000
Posts: 313
Loc: Belgium/Holland
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In reply to:
Q: Is SDAL Format an open standard?
A: Yes. The technical specification of SDAL Format is now publicly available for review. Interested parties can register online to request a copy. If manufacturers wish to implement the SDAL Format
PSF Specification, they will be able to do so royalty-free.
from q&a www.sdalformat.com
Okay that settles that ... Right ?
Odd, the book suggested the data for map display and route calculation to be seperate on the cd-rom... Page 1.6 (I have version 0.4 of the SDAL 1.7 format btw) ... But you probably are right since on the first page it does name that 0.sdl and 1.sdl file. It's kinda hard not having an actual disc yet. Still, I was thinking route calculation being the highest priority with the classic arrows being displayed on the display rather then full maps which I think we should keep for later, after all not all people here have palm-os or WinCE/PocketPC devices. I was thinking of keeping the door open for that (map display or creation with download to outside receivers) in a later stage though via some sort of plugin that should allow it to work with just about any device including ppc's but also actual external displays perhaps (although that might be hard).
What do you think ?
Cheers,
Hans
Mk2 - Blue - 080000431
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#21156 - 30/10/2000 00:31
Re: SDAL
[Re: EngelenH]
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new poster
Registered: 27/10/2000
Posts: 5
Loc: Lewedorp Netherlands
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Hi Hans (&navigation experts),
There are 2 different aspects to think of. route-navigation and route-guidance. The navigation (how do I drive from A to B) seems to be different from route guidance (your GPS receiver tells you where you are, and you are goiing to B).
suppose we have a navigation program. The GPS tells position. What database access routines do we need to tell the rest of the story. I can think of the following
getLocation( GpsPosition, CurrentNavPosition)
NavEvent = ComputeNavRoute( CurrentNavPosition, TargetNavPosition)
BTW there is one more aspect when writing a navigation tool: the availability of data. SDAL format CD's are not very common (due to lack of market penetration. Only Pioneer uses this format), but you can get them. Carin is in the netherlands very common, and easyly to get.
Prices are at the same level.
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#21157 - 30/10/2000 01:23
Re: SDAL
[Re: adfranse]
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old hand
Registered: 30/07/2000
Posts: 879
Loc: Germany (Ruhrgebiet)
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Q: Is SDAL Format an open standard?
A: Yes. The technical specification of SDAL Format is now publicly available for review. Interested parties can register online to request a copy. If manufacturers wish to implement the SDAL Format PSF Specification, they will be able to do so royalty-free.
from q&a www.sdalformat.com
Iīm afraid, but no, it doesnīt. Implementing a format specification and releasing it under - letīs say - the GPL is a different pair of shoes. Releasing the code or even sharing the necessary information between independed programmers is - as I see it - breaking the license one has to sign to get the specs. Read them carefully. Then think about what releasing the code open sourced would mean regarding those license rules.
However, Iīm still going to get those specs. If not for anything else than to get an idea of how such data might get stored and to implement a (non-opensourced) converter to our own format.
cu,
sven
(MkII 12GB blue, #080000113)
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#21158 - 30/10/2000 03:08
Re: SDAL
[Re: smu]
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enthusiast
Registered: 29/09/2000
Posts: 313
Loc: Belgium/Holland
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Okay back at work now and reading the letter that came with the book : As stated in the document itself, if you are intersted in implementing the SDAL format PSF specification in a product you must request the SDAL Format Version 1.7 adopters's agreement from Navigation Technologies...
Does not sound good eh ?
That brings us to a little bit of a snag, because even if we exported their data from an official CD (which I am sure is not allowed legally) into our own format we would be implementing their format specification etc ...
Argh, I hate red tape...
Hans
Mk2 - Blue - 080000431
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