As-always, Great Job guys! Empeg has accomplished what so many startups try, but fail. Probably because of your collective good nature and hard work. I am sure you are all very excited. You have created an incredible product and I hope you got every bit of what you deserved.

-Doug
(Mk2-12G-Blue)

Further to DIGNAN's post, I am concerned as well about "upgrades" and future support.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but the empeg was designed to resist obsolescence, was it not? It was designed to be infinitely (within reason, of course) expandable. The empeg was designed to be upgradeable to keep up with products coming out years after it. Its partly how I justified the price-tag.

This is NOT in keeping with the practice that large consumer electronics corporations exercise, who would put themselves out of business if they designed hardware that diminished yearning/need for upgrades. They profit from product cycles whereby the savvy hardware freak will want to upgrade every year or so. Hold back features and upgrades for the next generation, and weed out support for the old product. Herd the consumer into the Latest Version.

Working for a company that was a happy small shop of about 30 people until two years ago, when a large corporation bought us up to use as a "regional office" things definitely changed in similar ways. I can pretty much imagine what things will happen to the product and the culture, the only question is how soon.



The best of the best of the existing shop will take their packages, let themselves be cashed-out, and move on to better things in a small-shop setting, just like before -- the only difference is they'll have a ton of their own venture capital the next go-round.

Working out of your garage on a dream and making it real is a high thats hard to get over. You can't put the same people in a large shop, and all the crap that it entails and expect they'll continue to be productive and innovative -- or happy.




- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --
MK2 #141, green, 12GB

I think the point to keep in mind here is this: S3 aren't a consumer electronics company; consumer electronics companies tend to be hardware sellers driving product replacement as hard as possible.

If you're trying to compete with such companies, most of which dwarf S3, you use the computer market tactics - flexible hardware, and good software (ie, "the empeg way" ;) ). There will always be new versions - witness mk1->mk2 - simply because new chips come out and new things become possible. It's the way of electronics.

I really believe S3 know that the reason we make good stuff is because we enjoy it, and they're going to help us to continue doing this. If I didn't believe this, I personally wouldn't have considered the deal.

One other thing to consider: we simply couldn't have carried on as we were, making small numbers of a highly priced product - sooner or later (probably sooner) a big company would have wiped us out. Sure, our product would be better, but everyone would buy the cheaper box. This way, we get to do the fun bits, but it gets marketed by a company with clout.

Hugo

I've now had a quick chat on the telephone to Hugo about the acquisition, and he's pretty much laid my fears to rest.

When you really think about it, S3 would be incredibly foolish to upset such a close knit and productive team as they have acquired with Empeg.

I'm sure that securing the continued expertise of all concerned must be paramount in the minds of the S3 management. After all, what's the use of acquiring a product, if you can't retain the brains behind it?

I guess we will all just have to wait and see what happens, but I don't think that the Empeg brand will be disappearing any time soon.

Andy.

I think they are a seperate operating unit that is owned by s3. Things will probably continue as they are now with a few changes. Im not too worried about it.

Sean

Empeg 12 gig green 080000078

S3's mission:

Relaunched as a digital media company, S3 is committed to creating products and partnerships that help build the digital home. Combining strong financial assets with an extensive technology portfolio, that includes the Rio family of digital audio players and the HomeFree series of home networking solutions, S3 is uniquely positioned to capitalize on high growth opportunities in the rapidly converging Internet and consumer device markets.

This seems to be a contradiction to the empeg-car, which was aimed at a small group of people. As the empeg-people are now working for s3, they will probably be spending most of their time fulfilling that basic mission; that is, designing technology which is commercially attractive(cheap) and is in reach of as much people as possible.
Another viable option is that empeg is going to be the niche product-name for the s3 high-end stuff, which I don't think personally. If it is, it probably isn't the crew designing new gadgets and stuff.
Don't take this personal guys, I wish you all the best of luck with this venture, but you will soon discover the nature of working for big corporations.
Think of the following :
- long after-hours meetings with so-called technically enclined managers, who think they have the vision of future
- Set up an iso-compliant quality system. This involves chewing out large piles of documentation of all procedures and actions ever taken to dissolve any problems.
- Work according deadlines; If the tuner-module isn't delivered in the time that was originally set, some big-time lawyer will see change to setup some large lawsuit sewing the pants off of s3(and you feeling guilty)

these are just some of the things that are going to happen, I do not think there will be much time left on giving the empeg-people the things they asked for:
- open API to the player
- Voice recognition
- Tuner module
- fast support.
- ...

Please reply if I'm totally off with this one...I

Frank van Gestel

You are totally off IMHO; as a group we are obviously under the management of the Rio group's VP of engineering, who is a thoroughly good bloke & a hacker type (building a light aircraft in his garage...!) - but we get to "own" some projects, ie the management for these projects stays here.

We get to draw on the other divisions - great hardware designers both in Germany and the US, PCB design, component sourcing, etc, which makes us a lot more productive (read: we don't spend several days just finding and ordering components to build prototypes with).

Addressing your points:

- Open API. This is just as likely to happen as it was before - ie, it depends on how much time we have free. If a compelling reason arises (eg: nav system, whatever) then it's more likely to happen.
- VR. We feel this is essential for an in-car product, and have no plans to shelve it.
- Tuner module. S3's sourcing has already found us a small number of modules - more than we could get ourselves. We're working on getting these out to the first people who are due them (ie, mk1->mk2 upgraders).
- Fast support. Whatever happened, support is likely to change; as we get bigger, with or without S3, the chances of getting people replying out of hours (etc) decrease. Nowadays, it's unusual for people to be working after 9pm - a couple of years ago we just used to work until about 3 or 4am and then sleep until midday... then again, me & mike (mostly mike ;) ) are in working to try and eradicate some USB problems users have had and it's past 9.30pm. As the empeg-car is a complex product, I would expect we'll be carrying on with the tech support for a while yet.

Hugo

This way, we get to do the fun bits, but it gets marketed by a company with clout

...just so long as it stays that way; I would be sad if the empeg brand name submerged.

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

I believe you on all those points, Hugo. I'm not worried.

But Frank's points about middle-management weenies and ISQ Quality programs are good ones. I'm currently working for a small-startup-then-we-got-bought-by-a-big-company operation, and I'll tell you, the TQM and middle-management stuff will drive you to suicide.

Fortunately, there's a grace period after the buy. You have, in my estimation, 6 months to a year before you have to start worrying about TQM stuff. Enjoy your freedom while you can, I say.

___________
Tony Fabris

Does this mean empeg would be some kind of R&D division within S3, with it's own budget?
I could live with this, as it will probably benefit the current empeg-owner's in future features for MK1 and MK2 (You've got to test new development somewhere, and hey, here are the critics).

As I suppose there are less than 500 MK1 units and less than a thousand MK2's, you could probably give us a tuner-module for free : <million dollars budget> - (1500 * $75) = <million dollars budget> ( just kiddin' :) )

It's just a shame you didn't release the source of the player before the take-over. Is this software now property of S3?

Frank van Gestel

Hehe, that one could be read two ways, yes.

Eat Thai, and build Empegs. I believe both things are good things.
Stay away from big suits anyway.

TommyE

Good thing I couldnt have them here in Norway afterall.

TommyE

Hugo -- I had thought of that before, but hadn't considered it in the light of the recent announcement, that is, that some massive electronics company could toss out a couple million to cook up a competing product and market it way cheaper than the empeg and basically stamp you out overnight.

So with the inevitability factor, I guess for future growth, it possibly had to be (could only have been?) fostered by a larger company.

The other unlikely alternative is that a bunch of VC's hand you a couple million to do the same thing yourselves...

Hope you're right about S3.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --
MK2 #141, green, 12GB

This seems to be a contradiction to the empeg-car, which was aimed at a small group of people.

I think this is where you are off. It's aimed at a small group of people now due only to it's incredibly high price tag. Do you think the folks at empeg set out with the idea "we're going to produce and market a product with the smallest area of interest"? No, that's jsut the way it had to be. As Rob said, it was inevitable that they either get bought up, or, in a much slower proccess, become a bigger company themselves. The buy enables them to get backing quicker and thus possibly lower the prices of the product. That will increase the interest.

Who knows, now we might see empegs in retail shops and dealers and car audio mags. I think this is a good thing.

Oh, and for now I'm going to take the lack of response to my question about charging for future upgrades as a sign that there might be a plan for it. As long as there are future upgrades, and they don't cost like $40 each, I won't mind.

DiGNAN

Do you think the folks at empeg set out with the idea "we're going to produce and market a product with the smallest area of interest"? No, that's just the way it had to be.

I do not totally agree with that. If the guys at empeg could make the same player at a fraction of the price it is now, they would probably add some extra features on user-request, which would make the player go up in price again.
I thought it was Hugo's aim to set up a personal high-quality music system. As his project evolved, requests from like-minded people came in to persuade hugo in creating some more units. I do not think it was Hugo's intention to conquer the world, although he has clearly put a mark on computer-history.

Please do not get me wrong; with my original post, I was just setting up some criticism for people to think about. I've seen enough action taken by the empeg-guys to believe that this is coming to a good end. After all, which parent would leave it's first-born to die a sudden death?



Frank van Gestel

For all the naysayers, consider this: the empeg guys may be secretly plotting the overthrow of S3, tricking them into being a fantastic organization with incredible products and top-notch customer support.

Perhaps more realistically, this becomes a golden chance for the empeg software to proliferate on all kinds of devices, whether portable gizmos like the PJB-100 or, heaven knows, some future cel-phone music device. The empeg-car player will almost certainly become cheaper and more widely available as it evolves, and that's a good thing. I paid a mint for my empeg-car player, and it was well worth it, but I would have been happier spending less. Furthermore, S3 can probably get us screen that are more readable in daylight and remote controls with meaningful legends. That ain't bad. Stretching a little, you can also imagine an integrated empire of MP3 products where Joe Consumer never has to deal with a PC. They're 3/4 of the way there already.

It's also in S3's interests to promote the empeg-car player as a development platform. It's all about lock-in. If a bunch of Internet enthusiasts crank out software to replace the boot logo, to do automatic volume adjustment, and heaven knows what else, that only helps to steer other users to the platform. Just because S3 is a big corporation, don't assume they'll naturally gravitate toward using Microsoft products (although it could still happen, of course).

Even if you're pessimistic, keep in mind that the empeg guys still have unvested stock options to keep them around for another few years.

Dan

I'd be willing to guess that a good majority of the users of this board are somehow involved with technology development, and we've all seen it before. Traditionally, when a talented group comes up with a good product and can take it end to end (concept > manufacturing), they spark the interest of bigger fish who do the same. Typically what happens is the upstart gets absorbed and the key creative personnel end up with two choices. They move into managerial/marketing roles or get fed up with all the BS and revert back to what they love. In both cases the early adopters are held onto for as long as cost effectiveness dictates, and are slowly phased into the new core product market.

However, Empeg, as a company has managed to fully develop a niche market from cradle to grave (with next to zero cadavers so far) and are virtually self supporting. The negative, as we all know, is the lack the volume to reach a mainstream price point and good penetration. This self sufficient entity is more likely to assume a divisional role in an acquisition than a cut 'n dry rape, pillage and plunder that many of you fear. In other words, from S3's standpoint, it would cost them more to micro manage Empeg into a slow bloated mess than to leave them alone and provide them with manufacturing support and IR&D funding for future key products.

Finally, if you look at the insanely low volumes (not to be harsh... it's good in this case) that have currently been produced, It would cost them orders of magnitude more money to support older products than to provide reduced cost replacements produced in volume. I'm sure if you looked at the long term projected sales of an empeg developed/S3 produced car player (these are deal makers), you'd quickly realize that the first couple thousand wouldn't make much of a dent.

So to make a short story longer, don't be upset when your MKI or II is no longer supported unless you get shafted out of the transition to the volume product. However, given the absurd level of dedication and customer devotion Rob, Hugo and everyone else has shown so far, it wouldn't occur to me that it was even an option.

Regardless of the outcome, I feel honored to have been part of this public beta trial (original registration #4041) and helped Empeg reach the level of success they have achieved so far. My only regret is I didn't have any stock options :D

#080000512 green 12GB

I just thought I'd point out to DWallach that empeg itself is already producing the AR panels and new remotes. This was planned before the S3 business. The rest of the stuff is good though.

DiGNAN

Well, I guess I am just agreeing with what everyone else has already said, but I have very mixed feelings about this one.

I want to congratulate the guys@empeg. They have all put in a lot of hard work to make a great product and deserve the money and stability that this should bring to empeg.

But... I would never have given S3 $1500+ of my money. I think the Rio line of products are gimmikie at best and complete junk at worst. If this thing was the 'riocar' I never would have looked at it seriously enough to have discovered the features that made it worth buying. I think a lot of us bought into an 'empeg philosophy' here (excellent support for a cool product and the ability to actually discuss the benefits of the product with the designers and owners of the company). I don't think I would buy a Mark2 now either, I would wait and see what happens with this whole thing.

Anyway, just my .02 and I am a pessimist anyway so hopefully I am completely wrong here.

-Mike

For all the naysayers, consider this: the empeg guys may be secretly plotting the overthrow of S3, tricking them into being a fantastic organization with incredible products and top-notch customer support.

How did you find out? :-)



--
Mike Crowe
I may not be speaking on behalf of empeg above :-)

I'm not aware of any plans to make upgrades chargeable - however, we did reserve the right to charge for them ourselves. If, for example, the upgrade incurrs licensing fees, then it's likely that we'll have to pass these on. This is no different to the pre-S3 scenario.

Hugo

We did get offers of money from VC's; we turned them down (& a lot more than "a couple million" was needed - production is expensive...).

From what I've heard from people in VC funded companies, the goal becomes the payback far too much (IPO, etc) as opposed to the product. With S3, they're in it to make good products that customers will choose over the competition's boxes - just like us. Both empeg & S3 are product-centric - the product is the ultimate goal, and this is why we didn't pick VC.

Hugo

I have to admit that when I first read the report of S3's involvement, I was a bit worried to say the least. However, the comments from the guys@empeg have eased my mind... I mean think about it... how much more defensive of empeg's (the company) interests are Hugo, Rob, Mike et al going to be when you see how worried the consumers are?!? I think the company is in safe hands... No doubt things will change, but if the guys@empeg are happy, then I have no reason to doubt their judgement (it's been pretty good so far!)

Oh, and a hint that I might be getting my tuner sooner rather than later makes me a lot happier too

Geoff
---- -------
Got one of the first Mark 2 empegs...

It's just a shame you didn't release the source of the player before the take-over.

As Rob keeps saying, the player source code is our bread-and-butter. We're not actually in business just to make the car player hardware -- we're using it as leverage into other opportunities. It appears to have worked .

That said, I'd like to emphasise that we love the car player; we love you guys; and we're going to continue making the car player as long as we see a market for one. Our committment to this is unchanged (possibly even enhanced) by the S3 news.

But we're not (and never were) going to release the source code to the player software.


Roger - not necessarily speaking for empeg

We don't think the Rio products that we developed/are developing are gimmicky, we think they're rather good!

If you won't buy a product because of the brand name then that's your call, but the fact of life is that hundreds of thousands of potential clients won't buy from empeg because they see it as too great a risk.

Rob

The flip side of this is that unknowledged consumers who know the Rio portable MP3 player by name and not much about it's features will see the empeg right next to it. And you can't say S3's products are crappy anymore, look at the empeg

Besides, I have one of their graphics cards, and it's worked great for me as long as I've had it. I've even tried and returned 3 others after being unimpressed with their performance.

I think this is good news. And sorry about the charging question, I figured that might happen someday so I was expecting it.

DiGNAN

This seems to be a contradiction to the empeg-car, which was aimed at a small group of people.

If we could have sold 100,000 car players last year I would have been a VERY happy man. As Matt said, we're not small through choice, we're small due to commercial realities. Maybe that should be "were" small now

they will probably be spending most of their time fulfilling that basic mission; that is, designing technology which is commercially attractive(cheap) and is in reach of as much people as possible

Yep, that AND absolutely leading edge. The Rio Receiver is a case in point - it's very cheap, very good quality and a really cool gadget to have about the house. We developed the technology before S3 became interested, and if circumstances had been different the same product may have been developed with the empeg badge - and, unfortunately, would have retailed for at least twice the SP. Quantity does not have to come at the expense of Quality - we can reach a wide market with a high quality product. Take a look at a Rio Receiver and tell me I'm lying.

Don't take this personal guys, I wish you all the best of luck with this venture, but you will soon discover the nature of working for big corporations

Thanks, but actually we've been working with S3 for several months. I know the empeg image may seem otherwise, but we're not a bunch of kids fresh out of college - many people here have held important positions with influential companies. Far from being incompatible with S3, our team culture and values are essential to the deal - S3 know how we work, and it is our way of getting results that has value for them.

Rob

You have, in my estimation, 6 months to a year before you have to start worrying about TQM stuff

We've already been working with S3 on a vaguely-exclusive basis for that long. We're not walking into a contract blind - you wouldn't believe (or maybe you would!) how many hours Steve and our lawyers have put into this deal.

When catching up with this thread I was, at first, quite confused with the image people are presenting of S3. Stepping back and looking from an independent perspective I guess S3 are indeed a large corporation and I am well aware of the stereotypical views that such entities attract (often with good reason).

From my personal perspective, however, I've drunk beer and eaten Thai food with four of S3's (very) senior executives and found them to be a thoroughly nice bunch of guys. They all have strong techie backgrounds, understand their products exceptionally well, and are people that I am willing to be my bosses. If half the scare stories I've read here were true I would not still be working for empeg.

Don't get the idea that we're a tiny team within a huge corporation - we're set to become one of the largest teams with wide ranging responsibilities in the core product line. That's not bad going for a two year old startup.

Rob