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#230879 - 17/08/2004 18:38 Re: Late night diatribe [Re: JeffS]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
This doesn't answer your question, but most of the way I find out about new music is by listening to the suggestions at my local independent music shop. Maybe you could go to them and get them to listen to it. Of course, I bet the kind of music you're playing wouldn't go over very well at one of those establishments. But I haven't heard your music, so I could be wrong.

The long and short of it is "word of mouth". Get people to listen to it who are likely to recommend it to a lot of other people. And you're unlikely to get people to pay to listen to music unless you have a track record. Pick out a good single and some outtakes and distribute those for free. Let them pay for the rest of the A material and the B material.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#230880 - 17/08/2004 18:55 Re: Late night diatribe [Re: JeffS]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31298
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
They force music on the airwaves that is sub par and spend waaay to much time trying to catch people trying to steal music rather than working toward making music people want to buy.

I agree with the sentiments you're trying to express. However, one small technical quibble I have is with that statement. As disappointing as it may seem, the sub par stuff on the airwaves is, more or less, the music that people want to buy.

I don't begrudge the record companies when they run with a hit. If Britney Spears can make million-selling records, it's because she's doing something right. Well, the Britney Spears Machine as a whole is doing something right, anyway. I may dislike it on artistic grounds, but clearly a large chunk of the record-buying population doesn't dislike it.

Yes, every time I look at a top-40 chart I lose a little more faith in the human race...
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#230881 - 17/08/2004 19:23 Re: Late night diatribe [Re: wfaulk]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Quote:
Of course, I bet the kind of music you're playing wouldn't go over very well at one of those establishments. But I haven't heard your music, so I could be wrong.
No, I'm pretty sure you're on target.

I'm not so much worried about my music though. The moment I decided to do "Christian" music that limited my promotional options like crazy. Not only does that cut out most of the population who just aren't interested in music that is religiously based, but Christian labels also have a very clear defined vision of what Christian music is that doesn't leave as much room for expression as I'd like. So my expectations are low concerning how my stuff will do.

What I'm more interested in is how we can have acess to the best music and let the very best rise to the top, not because some guy thinks I'd like it, but because it really is popular with a large number of people similar to myself.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#230882 - 17/08/2004 19:30 Re: Late night diatribe [Re: JeffS]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31298
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
What I'm more interested in is how we can have acess to the best music and let the very best rise to the top, not because some guy thinks I'd like it, but because it really is popular with a large number of people similar to myself.

What I'm interested in is a world where there isn't an artistic "top" to rise to. In other words, a world where artists connect with listeners whether they appeal to a very small segment of the population or to the widest possible audience.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#230883 - 17/08/2004 19:33 Re: Late night diatribe [Re: tfabris]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Quote:
clearly a large chunk of the record-buying population doesn't dislike it.
This is well put, and is one of the problems with the capitalism (tyranny of the majority). Of course that just leaves us with music that just keeps geting more uninteresting. In this day and age where retail is getting more and more personalized, you'd think exposure to music could be too. And I suppose it is- Amazon and other sites will tell you what others like you have purchased. Still, it takes a bit of faith to hear a snipit of a song a website told you you might like and then buy it.

By the way, I'm not really arguing for or against anything here. Just thinking out loud (or on screen).
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#230884 - 17/08/2004 19:37 Re: Late night diatribe [Re: tfabris]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
I think, though, in a sense there are many "tops". Certainly there are a lot of people with the same tastes as I have in music. We may not be a huge force out there, but somebody at the "top" of this style could do very well if I knew they were out there. The trick is connecting that person and myself (along with others who share my tastes).
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#230885 - 17/08/2004 19:40 Re: Late night diatribe [Re: JeffS]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
I understand. The only way to get paid for your music is for people to buy it. The only way they will buy it is if they are interested in it. The only way for people to be interested in it is to hear it. The only way for people to hear it is to buy it. Kind of a catch-22. You've gotta cut that circle somewhere, and the only place you can cut it is to not get paid for it, at least at some point. Maybe you could release an album for free and susequent ones would be for-profit.

Quote:
Christian labels also have a very clear defined vision of what Christian music is that doesn't leave as much room for expression as I'd like


Replace "Christian" with any other genre and you'd still have a true statement. In all honesty, it's the crap I hear on TV classified as Christian music that annoys me. That "My God Is an Awesome God" crap-ola. But I have a number of albums from groups that consider themselves Christian and whose lyrics point in that direction, but who aren't didactic about it. (Pedro the Lion and U2 come to mind.)
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#230886 - 17/08/2004 20:09 Re: Late night diatribe [Re: wfaulk]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Quote:
Replace "Christian" with any other genre and you'd still have a true statement.
Yeah, I'm under no illusion that it is different anywhere else. In the end, the Christian record companies are just divisions of the big secular ones who's end goal is to make money (go figure).
Quote:
the crap I hear on TV classified as Christian music that annoys me.
There's very little classified as Christian that I enjoy either. There is some very mainstream stuff that I like because I find the lyrics encouraging and uplifting and I appreciate the musicianship, even if the style is not what I'd normally listen to. Howver, in general most Christian stuff just doesn't appeal to me. Even the rock groups like "Third Day" are only somewhat suited to my tastes.
Quote:
But I have a number of albums from groups that consider themselves Christian and whose lyrics point in that direction, but who aren't didactic about it.

I honestly never intended to start writing Christian music, but it's just what comes out. You've read my posts so you know I can't start anything without somehow talking about God; it's just the way I am. I figure I'll do what I like and if people want to buy it then cool. If not, well then at least I created what was within me to create.

Oh, and as far as giving music away free, I'll probably make at least a song or two freely downloadable. Also, I just might put a "disclaimer" on the CD proudly explaining that people are free to copy it as much as they want. I had a friend who's band did that and they were selling CDs nation-wide by the thousands and not even signed to a label (apparently not everyone took them up on their offer). Of course, they had a really good promoter to go along with a really great CD. Sadly, they're signed now and can't put such things on their current CDs. Their music is not nearly as good as it used to be either, though I hear rumers that an upcoming CD my burst this trend.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#230887 - 18/08/2004 02:41 Re: Late night diatribe [Re: wfaulk]
lectric
pooh-bah

Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2082
Loc: New Orleans, LA
I hate to jump in late, but when I read
Quote:
The unauthorized reproduction or distribution of this copyrighted work is illegal. Criminal copyright infringement, including infringement without monetary gain, is investigated by the FBI and punishable by up to 5 years in a federal prison and a fine of $250,000.

I instantly thought of the VHS Pirates segment of Amazon Women on the Moon. OOOOH, I'm so SCARED!

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#230888 - 18/08/2004 09:55 Re: Late night diatribe [Re: wfaulk]
webroach
old hand

Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
The only way to get paid for your music is for people to buy it. The only way they will buy it is if they are interested in it. The only way for people to be interested in it is to hear it. The only way for people to hear it is to buy it. Kind of a catch-22.


I somewhat agree, Bitt. The thing to consider, though, is that you can allow people to listen to either a 30-second clip at CD quality, or download the whole track at fairly poor quality. Not all the tracks from an album, mind you, but a representative sample. This would allow people to make a decision if they wanted to pay to hear more.

The 30-second HQ / full song LQ idea isn't mine. Came across it on some artist's website, though I don't remember who at the moment. Add a shopping cart and you have the problem solved.

I agree with you on the "word-of-mouth" thing. With the music I listen to, that's generally all I have to go on anyways. I don't remember the last time MTV played anything by The Legendary Pink Dots, 16 Volt, Melt Banana or Rimi Natsukawa.

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Dave

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#230889 - 18/08/2004 09:59 Re: Late night diatribe [Re: JeffS]
webroach
old hand

Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
Sadly, they're signed now and can't put such things on their current CDs. Their music is not nearly as good as it used to be either


I see this as one of the main problems with the music industry. The "I want a record deal" crap. If your friends were selling albums by the thousands nationwide, what reason did they have to get a deal with a label?

This isn't in any way a slam on your friends, mind you. I just don't understand why people need the labels.
_________________________
Dave

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#230890 - 18/08/2004 11:16 Re: Late night diatribe [Re: webroach]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Quote:
If your friends were selling albums by the thousands nationwide, what reason did they have to get a deal with a label?
Well actually they never sought out a record deal. In fact, even as little as a month before they finally signed they were still working other jobs to make a living. They turned down the first offers and were pretty adamant that they'd only sign if was a deal that really worked for them. But the truth is, even with the number of CDs they were selling and the amount they were charging for concerts, they still couldn't make a living off the music (the problem of having seven people in the band). The deal they landed in the end was pretty nice, better than most newly-signed artists, and it allowed them to transition to doing music full time. They pretty much got the record company to let them do what they want and select the producer they wanted- I forgot who it was but it was a pretty big name- worked with the Indigo Girls and such. When they started touring they didn't have to open up for anyone because they'ed already spent several years paying their dues.

And I think they're pretty happy now (six or seven years later) and making the music they want to. I don't like it as much, but then they didn't ask me! But the thing is, when they went with the label they did it on their own terms and didn't get taken for a ride the way many do.

As for why they signed: Just about everyone I knew listened to them (of course, we all lived in their hometown) before they were signed, but the local Christian radio station simply would not play their music. Once they were signed they started playing it all the time. That's why people need record deals. They had tons of word of mouth exposure before, but once they were signed their exposure went through the roof. I remember being on my Honeymoon in Hawii and mentioning to another couple that I was from Houston and they immediatly started talking about my friend's band; they'ed heard of them on the radio- not word of mouth.

The other thing the record deal got them was a great CD. You can still purchase their pre-label stuff and it sounds so much weaker than what they were able to do once signed. Since then things have changed a bit and it's much easier to put togegether a high quality album, but the label definitely helped the afford to do the CD they really wanted. The interesting thing is that now they're not very fond of that first national CD (I love it, though).
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#230891 - 18/08/2004 13:54 Re: Late night diatribe [Re: webroach]
RobotCaleb
pooh-bah

Registered: 15/01/2002
Posts: 1866
Loc: Austin
16 Volt!!!

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#230892 - 18/08/2004 14:54 Re: Late night diatribe [Re: schofiel]
rob
carpal tunnel

Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5328
Loc: Cambridge UK
Quote:
For some reason I sat there in the cinema as if I'd been struck by lightning. It was as if that message had been aimed, in all it's patronisation, directly at me.


I was thinking exactly the same thing last night, while watching I, Robot. The messaging in UK cinemeas currently is:

"It is illegal to make a recording of this movie.

If you do so, you will be:

- Ejected from the theatre
- Permanently banned from <insert cinema chain here> theatres
- Receive a minimum 2000 fine and a possible prison sentance

Piracy is theft etc etc etc"

I forget the rest, it went on a bit. As a customer I'm not accustomed to being spoken to like that.

Rob

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#230893 - 18/08/2004 14:55 Re: Late night diatribe [Re: rob]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Apparently I need to start wearing a sandwich board that says "It is illegal to shoot me."
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#230894 - 18/08/2004 14:57 Re: Late night diatribe [Re: wfaulk]
tman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
Is it? Damn. If you hadn't said I would have!

They've been putting those notices into films at the cinema for quite a few months now. If they catch you with a camcorder then you're assumed to be guilty and kicked out. This includes having it in the bag and switched off.

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#230895 - 18/08/2004 15:10 Re: Late night diatribe [Re: tman]
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3979
Loc: Manchester UK
Quote:
This includes having it in the bag and switched off.


I'd be willing to give that a try, I'd scream blue f**king murder if they tried to eject me.

Besides, who would want to see a film shot on a camcorder in a cinema? A screener DVD maybe.
_________________________
Cheers,

Andy M

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#230896 - 18/08/2004 15:17 Re: Late night diatribe [Re: andym]
tman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
It's difficult to see how they'd even do that one anyway as they can't search you. The ticket guy I know at the local cinema said they were told to watch out for people with camcorders in bags. No idea if it was official policy or just some manager going OTT.

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#230897 - 18/08/2004 15:20 Re: Late night diatribe [Re: andym]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31298
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
Besides, who would want to see a film shot on a camcorder in a cinema?

Unfortunately, some piracy rings operate in exactly that fashion. Then they sell VCDs or DVDs or the cammed films. Or post them on the internet to be downloaded.

I just laugh at the whole thing. Those who already do that will not be deterred by a copyright message, because they know what they're doing. Someone caught doing it can be ejected from the theater anyway, whether that message was on the film or not, so it's not a legal tool. So if it's not a deterrent, and not a legal tool, then the only thing the message does is insult the law abiding patrons.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#230898 - 18/08/2004 16:05 Re: Late night diatribe [Re: tfabris]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12148
Loc: Sterling, VA
Those are some of the funniest movies to watch. I can't believe anyone actually watches those, but they do, including my mom's friend in Malaysia. She's always sending me these DVDs she gets on the streets there, and at first it was kinda cool to get all these movies, but then I realized that they were all of that variety.

I think some movie that came out on DVD within the last few months actually included the entire pirated version as an extra. I love how creative they're getting with DVD extras.
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Matt

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#230899 - 18/08/2004 17:58 Re: Late night diatribe [Re: tman]
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3979
Loc: Manchester UK
Quote:
It's difficult to see how they'd even do that one anyway as they can't search you. The ticket guy I know at the local cinema said they were told to watch out for people with camcorders in bags. No idea if it was official policy or just some manager going OTT.


Suppose they'd get a bit suspicious if I walked in with my camcorder bag, fluid head tripod and boom mike.
_________________________
Cheers,

Andy M

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#230900 - 19/08/2004 00:13 Re: Late night diatribe [Re: wfaulk]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5402
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
...but who aren't didactic about it.

Score another one for Bitt.

That is the first use of the word didactic since the bbs started.

Excellent!

tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

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#230901 - 19/08/2004 00:55 Re: Late night diatribe [Re: tanstaafl.]
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
Quote:
That is the first use of the word didactic since the bbs started.


Delectable!
_________________________
Jim


'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

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#230902 - 19/08/2004 04:53 Re: Late night diatribe [Re: tanstaafl.]
Daria
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3932
Loc: Providence, RI
Quote:
...but who aren't didactic about it.

Score another one for Bitt.

That is the first use of the word didactic since the bbs started.


Well, it's a perfectly cromulent word.

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#230903 - 19/08/2004 09:44 Re: Late night diatribe [Re: Dignan]
webroach
old hand

Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
I think some movie that came out on DVD within the last few months actually included the entire pirated version as an extra. I love how creative they're getting with DVD extras.


Actually, I think that may be the COOLEST DVD extra I've ever heard of. Way better than "Motion Menus!".
_________________________
Dave

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#230904 - 19/08/2004 09:44 Re: Late night diatribe [Re: RobotCaleb]
webroach
old hand

Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
16 Volt!!!


I honestly think 16 Volt is one of the most underrated bands out there.

But that's just me.
_________________________
Dave

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#230905 - 19/08/2004 14:32 Re: Late night diatribe [Re: webroach]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12148
Loc: Sterling, VA
Quote:
Quote:
I think some movie that came out on DVD within the last few months actually included the entire pirated version as an extra. I love how creative they're getting with DVD extras.


Actually, I think that may be the COOLEST DVD extra I've ever heard of. Way better than "Motion Menus!".

Hehe, I think my favorite was some DVD which only listed "Chapter stops!"

It's killing me not knowing which DVD that was. It was pretty recent, and I even want to say that the pirated version had a commentary track, or maybe it was that it only had a commentary track...:)
_________________________
Matt

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#230906 - 19/08/2004 15:07 Re: Late night diatribe [Re: Dignan]
webroach
old hand

Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
It was pretty recent, and I even want to say that the pirated version had a commentary track, or maybe it was that it only had a commentary track...:)


I can only imagine the "commentary" on the pirate version....

pirate #1: d00d, recording m00vi3z on teh kamkorder is teh b3$+!
pirate #2: ya, it r0x0rz!
audience member #1: Sssshhhhhhhhh!
audience member #2: My daughter is trying to enjoy the movie!
pirate #1: shut up, foo.
pirate #2: ya, shut up foo.


...and so on for 2 hours.....

_________________________
Dave

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#230907 - 19/08/2004 18:57 Re: Late night diatribe [Re: tfabris]
schofiel
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2992
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
Quote:
the only thing the message does is insult the law abiding patrons


Yeee Haaawwww!!! Spot on, sir! That was the feeling I was trying to can.
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One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

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