#234221 - 20/09/2004 21:33
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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This guy hates Bush so much that I doubt money was a factor.
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Brad B.
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#234222 - 20/09/2004 23:32
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I can't believe anyone believed that memo. Proportional fonts on a 1972 memo -- something that would have been written on a typewriter? Come on. Obvious fake from the moment I saw it.
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Bitt Faulk
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#234225 - 21/09/2004 00:20
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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LOL, who the hell is voting for Karl Rove? Conspiracy theories never die! I hope someone's kidding! Wow.
Edited by SE_Sport_Driver (21/09/2004 00:22)
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Brad B.
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#234226 - 21/09/2004 00:34
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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SE_Sport_Driver: Quote:
This guy hates Bush so much that I doubt money was a factor.
Yeah... While my poll asks what I aimed to be a rhetorical question, if I had to redo it, I guess would ask "Did the documents faxed to CBS originate with: The DNC, Karl Rove, Bill Burkett or None of The Above?"
Burkett made no attempt to appear a disinterested observer , and CBS with 10 seconds Googling could have confirmed that.
wfaulk:
Quote:
I can't believe anyone believed that memo. Proportional fonts on a 1972 memo -- something that would have been written on a typewriter? Come on. Obvious fake from the moment I saw it.
I never looked at these as I figured automatically that much more critical experts would. Too bad CBS couldn't be bothered. The performance of the electonic media in this country is soooo disheartening. Edward R. Murrow rolls over in his grave.
To the original rhetorical point of my poll: The AP was covering Bush's National Guard service. Other news outlets -- pack mentality at work -- were starting to join in. If I were Karl Rove and saw this forest fire heading my way, I can not think of a better backfire to light than these Burkett memos. While the ANG commander's secretary still says "That's pretty much what he (Killian) said" [my paraphrase] that story is now ancient history. Now thanks to CBS avarice, gullibility, negligence, incompetence, whatever, the story is about Burkett, unfounded attacks on Fearless Leader, about CBS, and about demands for an apology.
I would like to think that if the Dems wanted to do this and not have it discredited (and backfire), they would have found a proper typewriter. I can conceive that Burkett might have created these as indignant facsimiles of memos that *used* to exist, but what a bad call if so. My Rove screnario -- Burkett getting suckered -- I can't dismiss if only because of the great benefit the Bush campaign will have accrued from this fiasco, It is getting to the point that I think anybody on any side (but the Republican apparatus in particular!) would say and do anything given the absolute rightness of their cause.
I hate tinfoil hat movies like JFK, but memories of the mysterious Jack Ruby preoccupy me as we near November 2nd
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Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#234227 - 21/09/2004 00:50
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
LOL, who the hell is voting for Karl Rove?
Ummmm, everybody who votes for GWB? Let me think about that. Unlike their boss, Rove and folks like Scooter Libby are reputed to be very clever! When it comes to mass deception, Shrub needs a tight script.
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Conspiracy theories never die! I hope someone's kidding! Wow.
I have served in the military -- 1095 days and not *one* sick day -- so I know that it is possible for complete idiots to rise to high rank. Maybe Burkett is one such if this forgery is his. But if Burkett really hates Bush as would seem to be the case, then it is remarkable that he has given the campaign such a favor.
Oh, and I showed up for all my physicals and drug tests, too.
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Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#234228 - 21/09/2004 01:04
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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This whole concept is absurd. Does any clear thinking person actually thinks that Karl Rove had something to do with this? I am no fan of the DNC, but even I would never accuse them of being behind this, and it makes far more sense for some low-level DNC person to have cooked this up than Karl Rove.
If Rove were to have done this, he would have had access to actual documents to use as a guide. The font and type setting issues are only the first layer of problems with this. Even if an era type writer were used, these documents would suffer from inaccuracies. I suspect Rove or Joe Lockhart would have done a much more convincing job. Just because this works perfectly for the Republicans doesn't imply that they are behind it.
I believe that what truly happened is that someone cooked this up (maybe Burkett) and gave it to the DNC and CBS. Both parties were blinded by their eagerness to "nab" Bush and ran with it. A week prior to the airing (just as CBS reportedly began production of the final piece) the DNC launched their "Fortunate Son" campaign. Nice timing.
I don't think either side knew or suspected they had fake papers. They were blinded by their hatred for Bush into thinking "it must be true". It reminds me of all the crazy theories about the Clinton's knocking off adversaries. Because they "knew" it was true before they even had the fake papers, they never bothered looking into it and ignored sources that didn't backup what they said. For the DNC, this is disgraceful, but expected in the politics in 2004 (sadly). For CBS, it is inexcusable. They systematically threw out any comments by people who disputed the documents or by people who might be sympathetic to Bush. Yet they built their story on testimony from people who clearly had an axe to grind with Bush. A journalism student in junior high would have done a better job at balancing sources. Even to this day, they are referring to Burkett as a "former guardsman" and don't mention he was in the Army guard, not the Air Force or that he has long campaigned against Bush. A Google search shows even more.
So, like I said, their hatred blinded them into ignoring the facts. Kind of like how someone's hatred for Karl Rove would make them think that HE did all this with his pinky finger at the side of his mouth! Or maybe it's just hard for Democrats to accept the fact that someone on "their side" was dumb enough to do this? Who is more fool, the fool or the fool who follows the fool? I'll vote for CBS.
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Brad B.
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#234229 - 21/09/2004 01:21
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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First of all, nobody cares about this Guard duty. Just like nobody cares about Vietnam. I don't really care what two twenty somethings did years before I was born. The polls show that most voters agree.
I think you need to make up your mind. Is Bush this world plotter and master of lies to the US and the UN who allowed 9/11 so that he could gain great power and venge a plot to kill his father while making millions in oil money or is he a goof who can't tie his shoes? Seriously. You guys switch back and forth on this all the time. There are a lot of smart people on the BBS, but I suspect very few of them could fly a fighter jet, especially one built in the late 60's. No letter from your father will keep a plane in the air.
You think that Bush supporters are voting that Karl Rove had something to do with this in this BBS poll? Maybe I wasn't clear in what I wrote.
Yes, it is remarkable that Burkett (or whomever) did Bush a favor. Living your life through the prism of hatred will do that to you. Some call it karma.
I still can't get over this: Do you actually think that Karl Rove typed this up on his notebook and faxed this over to Burkett and sat back with his fingers crossed hoping that Burkett and whatever hapless news organization that he contacts would run with it ignoring any concerns brought up from within and then continue to stonewall for a week? Oh wait, I forgot, he must have called a few bloggers too and given them the tip. Oh yeah, he'd need Burkette's fax number (at Kinkos?) and a secure line. I'm still not sure why he chose now instead of the previous 3 times THIS YEAR this story has tried to break ground.... But Rove is so much more smarter than me, I guess only he knows.
PS - Congratulations on passing your physical.
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Brad B.
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#234230 - 21/09/2004 01:27
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Quote:
It is getting to the point that I think anybody on any side (but the Republican apparatus in particular!) would say and do anything given the absolute rightness of their cause.
The GOP has pretty much presented itself in the same way throughout these last few years (with the exception of the Swift Boat guys) where as the Left has thrown everything but the kitchen sink, even calling Bush the new Hitler. I didn't see the Swifties at the RNC convention, but Moore and 527 organizers had front row seats at the DNC convention.
If you want to talk about "rightness of their cause" you must be referring to Fahrenheit 9/11 since the only way someone could have wrapped so many lies together and called it a movie is if they thought that their ends justified the means.
Let's just agree to disagree on this one.
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Brad B.
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#234231 - 21/09/2004 01:34
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
If Rove were to have done this, he would have had access to actual documents to use as a guide. The font and type setting issues are only the first layer of problems with this.
No, no, no, you're missing the point. It's a reverse-double-cross-psychology conspiracy theory. The republican party plants forged documents, which are fake enough to be quickly revealed as fakes, then, at some point over the next couple of weeks, they frame the democratic party for doing it. Thus discrediting the democratic party and sealing the republican in the white house. See, the documents had to look fake under that theory.
If you subscribe to those sorts of notions, that is. 
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#234232 - 21/09/2004 01:56
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
This whole concept is absurd. Does any clear thinking person actually thinks that Karl Rove had something to do with this? I am no fan of the DNC, but even I would never accuse them of being behind this, and it makes far more sense for some low-level DNC person to have cooked this up than Karl Rove.
(I think in the first case above you meant "RNC"?)
I think of myself of a pretty clear-headed person and usually manage to avoid being mocked as a wild-eyed conspiracy theorist, but I could not help post my little poll here -- thought it might stumulate a little discussion!. I don't *know* or have incriminating evidence with respect to *anyone*'s original involvement with the creation of the forgeries. What I could see, though, was that "The National Guard Years" was one place where the media was fueling up to look at Bush -- it was happening whether the Republicans liked it or not -- and it was one of the very few places where Kerry could compare himself favorably (Kerry *really* can't credibly attack Bush over the war).
Quote:
If Rove were to have done this, he would have had access to actual documents to use as a guide. The font and type setting issues are only the first layer of problems with this. Even if an era type writer were used, these documents would suffer from inaccuracies. I suspect Rove or Joe Lockhart would have done a much more convincing job.
To serve Lockhart's purposes, forgeries would need to be good forgeries -- they would need to "stick" until November 3rd. To serve Rove's purposes (in my conspiracy model!!) the forgeries would need to be pretty easy to spot in order to achieve the desired effect -- help discredit the included criticisms of W -- and neutralize subsequent W-TANG coverage in the last weeks before the election. The complete crudeness of the fakes argues against this to some extent, but what if better forgeries remained in dispute until November 3rd? Bad for W.
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Just because this works perfectly for the Republicans doesn't imply that they are behind it.
Amazing that it worked so well, though, and I wouldn't put it past them. Rove and crew are earning their paycheck. Of course they are facing one of the weakest candidates the Democrats could have put forward. Somebody who voted for the Iraq War and who has a years-long, CYA, middle-of-the-road congressional record with which they can be repeatedly whipped. They have aimed successfully at Kerry's strength -- the only thing he had to trumpet -- with the Swift Boat Veterans Still Pissed at Jane Fonda ads.
When I first heard of these memos and the questions of their authenticity, all I could think was "What a perfect one-two punch" on the whole war hero thing.
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I believe that what truly happened is that someone cooked this up (maybe Burkett) and gave it to the DNC and CBS. Both parties were blinded by their eagerness to "nab" Bush and ran with it. A week prior to the airing (just as CBS reportedly began production of the final piece) the DNC launched their "Fortunate Son" campaign. Nice timing.
It gets worse. I am all for "nabbing" Bush because I believe he deserves it ten times over, but CBS is going to get on my enemies list. What can living, honorable veterans of CBS such as Cronkite and Schorr think? Our democracy isn't screwe up enough?
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I don't think either side knew or suspected they had fake papers. They were blinded by their hatred for Bush into thinking "it must be true".
Well, funny thing is, it looks like it *is* quite true, but CBS just got an F on their exam for cheating.
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It reminds me of all the crazy theories about the Clinton's knocking off adversaries. Because they "knew" it was true before they even had the fake papers, they never bothered looking into it and ignored sources that didn't backup what they said. For the DNC, this is disgraceful, but expected in the politics in 2004 (sadly). For CBS, it is inexcusable. They systematically threw out any comments by people who disputed the documents or by people who might be sympathetic to Bush. Yet they built their story on testimony from people who clearly had an axe to grind with Bush. A journalism student in junior high would have done a better job at balancing sources. Even to this day, they are referring to Burkett as a "former guardsman" and don't mention he was in the Army guard, not the Air Force or that he has long campaigned against Bush. A Google search shows even more.
I won't try to dissuade you from hating CBS, but I hope you will allow me to hate them more if they manage to help re-elect Shrub -- the net effect of this tempest, IMO.
I am not the first to say it, but people who have decided that they are going to vote for Shrub don't really care that he was a dissolute, substance-abusing adolescent, rich kid and inconstant member of the military, because (drum roll...) he has been saved. And how can you fulfill the wonders of salvation if you weren't a sinner?
With the exposure of these fak/xed memos, what the Bush campaign gains is a shield against further media inquiry into his non-service and less negative play with the few remaining undecided voters in battleground states.
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So, like I said, their hatred blinded them into ignoring the facts. Kind of like how someone's hatred for Karl Rove would make them think that HE did all this with his pinky finger at the side of his mouth! Or maybe it's just hard for Democrats to accept the fact that someone on "their side" was dumb enough to do this? Who is more fool, the fool or the fool who follows the fool? I'll vote for CBS.
Just to clarify. I am not a Democrat. I will likely choke back my own vomit as I voite for Kerry. But then again, I would likely vote for a rusty faucet over Shrub. New uplifting slogan "Kerry: Not sure he'll do better, but he can't do worse!"
Your mockery of my harping on Rove leaves me feeling you are being a bit naive. George Bush said he was *very* interested in finding out who outed CIA agent Valerie Plame to columnist Robert Novak. This was likely either Rove or Libby. Hmmmm, it doesn't seem that Bush has gotten to the bottom of that. Come to think of it, I think he was lying again. He values the Rove/Libby counsel too much to have them go to jail.
Maybe it is all those Watergate hearings I watched on TV. They probably rotted my brain.
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Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#234233 - 21/09/2004 02:06
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
.If you subscribe to those sorts of notions, that is
Notice I haven't offered to wager anyone!
....but if your job involves a lot of media exposure, if you see a punch coming, best to raise your hand to block it. You may break a few fingers, but not your nose.
Man I gotta stop typing and get back to my anatomy textbook. I only scored a 25 percent, but Harvard just called and they are taking me as a Neurosurgery Resident!
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Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#234234 - 21/09/2004 02:31
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
You guys switch back and forth on this all the time.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. Switch back and forth on what? Are you saying that we're not allowed to present multiple arguments of why Bush sucks and have to stick to only one? But there's so many to choose from!
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Bitt Faulk
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#234235 - 21/09/2004 02:48
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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Quote:
Is Bush this world plotter and master of lies to the US and the UN ... or is he a goof who can't tie his shoes?
He is a goof who can not tie his shoes who happens to be a front for people that are world plotters and masters of lies like Rove and Cheney and Wolfowitz and Ashcroft. Perhaps "front" is too strong a word, but anyone who thinks that Bush is the one doing all the thinking and planning in the Whitehouse seriously needs to look a bit closer at who is his administration is and how what they have publically advocated for many years has come to pass.
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Ninti - MK IIa 60GB Smoke, 30GB, 10GB
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#234236 - 21/09/2004 05:15
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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First of all, nobody cares about this Guard duty.
True. What people care about is that his failure to come clean on his Gaurd duty is indicative of the systemic lying and general all-round weaseliness of him, and his administration. The saddest thing is that there's so much lying, weaseling, and general incomptence (I don't include his administration in the incompetence) from the man (and I use that term loosely), that the anti-Bushies could easily find something both more recent, and more relevant, to hammer him on.
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#234237 - 21/09/2004 09:58
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Quote:
(I think in the first case above you meant "RNC"?)
No, I meant the DNC. I simply was saying that there is a stronger case that the DNC was behind this yet I still don't think they were the cause. To point the finger at the RNC, you have to suspend logic to connect all the dots.
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To serve Rove's purposes (in my conspiracy model!!) the forgeries would need to be pretty easy to spot in order to achieve the desired effect
Right, but they'd need to be "good enough" to get by CBS or whoever got them and the document experts they hired. These documents clearly were not good enough to get by a single document expert. The only person who okay'd these things was just looking at the signature. There is simply no way that someone could have writen these "bad enough to be discovered" and the "hopes CBS ignores how bad they are until after they goto air." In order for your theory to work, Rove would have had to know that CBS would drop the ball and that's not possible. The risk of being caught far out weigh the benefits.
I'll mention again, this story has been brought up at least 6 times before, three times this year already. It has never stuck because people don't care and there is no evidence other than "he said / she said". Why on earth would a campaign manager choose NOW to do something like this for a story that won't stick when his candidate already has a double digit lead in several polls? Again, you have to throw all of this out the window for this to work.
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Rove and crew are earning their paycheck.
Not a good arguement. There are just as many people on the other side that are earning a paycheck.
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Swift Boat Veterans Still Pissed at Jane Fonda
lol, nice one! I really think the thing that is going to kill Kerry's chance is when the swifties bring up Kerry's testimony against the war and his meetings in Paris with the Viet Cong. (It's actually started already, but nobody is listening yet).
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Shrub
? ? Who's that? Oh wait, now I get it. I guess I missed that one.
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With the exposure of these fak/xed memos, what the Bush campaign gains is a shield against further media inquiry into his non-service and less negative play with the few remaining undecided voters in battleground states.
I totally agree with you here, but that is the "effect" of this whole thing, it's not the "cause" of it. It's kinda funny how Ashcroft was the Darth Vader back in the day, then it was Rumsfeld, then Cheney. Now "Karl Rove" is this evil mastermind.
I think the root of this is that it's hard for you to believe that someone on "your side" was dumb enough to do this and that it is going to backfire so badly on Kerry's chance to win. Seriously, that's a hard pill to swallow. Oh the irony! 
I roll my eyes at some supporters of Bush, I suggest you do the same towards Burkett.
I think you'd have a better case saying that Bush started the hurricanes so that it would keep Kerry out of the news while Bush had a double digit lead in current polls. Once you have a lead, it's okay to stay out of the news and ride that lead. Yes! It all makes sense now! 
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our mockery of my harping on Rove leaves me feeling you are being a bit naive. George Bush said he was *very* interested in finding out who outed CIA agent Valerie Plame to columnist Robert Novak.
I really don't see the relation here. Last I heard this was under investigation and to be honest, the only person that can end this is Novak. But you cite THIS as proof that Rove planted these documents? That's a serious stretch.
Just because I prefer to believe a theory that actually makes sense and doesn't require dozens of uncontrollable circumstances to fall into place perfectly doesn't make me naive.
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Brad B.
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#234238 - 21/09/2004 10:00
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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You can list as many reasons as you want. Actually, you can save the time, I just browse the Off Topic threads. But my point is that he can't be both an idiot and a master of evil. You gotta pick one.
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Brad B.
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#234239 - 21/09/2004 10:02
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: ninti]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Oh okay. Good one. I forgot about Wolfowitz too. Silly me.
Who would think that a president of the US would have advisors? I'm disgusted. I prefer a president who has a pollster like Dick Morris to tell me what way that wind is blowing.
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Brad B.
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#234241 - 21/09/2004 13:01
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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I'm late for work... hopefully there won't be 20 replies by 5pm!
Well, let me add one more log on the fire.
I'm voting for Kerry this year, and unlike others, I won't be holding my nose. While I don't think Kerry is the best man in America for the job (I was hoping Wesley Clark would win the nomination) I think he's a much smarter, decisive, and determined leader than he's been given credit for. I just think he's run an atrocious campaign, not uncommon for someone's first time around, and especially against an incumbent in such a divided voting base. Kerry has had his work cut out for him, and has not risen to the challenge of defeating the Republican attack machine that's so good at dividing the voters and discrediting the opposition. Kerry and his people, I'm afraid, are no good at playing dirty politics.
CBS deserves to lose every viewer they have for running with this story. The Democrats, to their credit, didn't latch onto it too strongly, not nearly as strongly as the Bush people latched onto the Swift Boat Veterans for "Truth." But they also have done a terrible job of responding to those attacks, and an even worse job of proving that the Bush campaign has nothing else to stand for except attacking Kerry's Vietnam service. (And if you think Rove isn't attached to those Swift Boat clowns, I've got a bridge to sell you.)
So, after the smoke clears, we're left with two candidates who have an agenda for what they'd do if elected President. Sad thing is, one of them is ALREADY President, and doesn't seem to recognize that. His campaign slogan must be "No, really, this time I'll get it right. Trust me." If all of this sideshow about Vietnam service, National Guard duty, etc. can finally die down, and the two candidates square off in the debates, I think we'll get a much better picture for who's best to lead this country. I have no question that Kerry has the better ideas, and the wherewithal to execute them... Unfortunately, I don't have nearly as much faith in his ability to win an election in a voting base that's so brainwashed by the best dirty politicians in America.
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#234242 - 21/09/2004 13:35
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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There is simply no way that someone could have writen these "bad enough to be discovered" and the "hopes CBS ignores how bad they are until after they goto air." In order for your theory to work, Rove would have had to know that CBS would drop the ball and that's not possible. The risk of being caught far out weigh the benefits.
Don't form the idea that I am trying to convince anyone that Burkett didn't fabricate these, but the point of my poll is to keep open consideration of other options given the surprisingly fortuitous results for some.
Burkett, I hear, now says that he pressed CBS to validate the faxes. Liar? Not liar? I don't know. If I was familiar with the Texas political landscape including Burkett's long-standing grievance, how difficult would it be to craft forged memos and drop them in the mail with complete anonymity to Burkett: "Bill, I appreciate your struggle. Here are some things I think you'd be interested in. I can't come forward publically because my family blah, blah blah....."
Burkett come forward and is instantly discredited? Win
CBS (blind fools) comes forward and is discredited? Win
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Why on earth would a campaign manager choose NOW to do something like this for a story that won't stick when his candidate already has a double digit lead in several polls? Again, you have to throw all of this out the window for this to work.
No not really. I don't know what their pollsters tell them. Maybe they tell Rove that the 30+ year-old Navy-versus-TANG is one of the few areas they need to focus on to drop Kerry in battleground states.
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I really think the thing that is going to kill Kerry's chance is when the swifties bring up Kerry's testimony against the war and his meetings in Paris with the Viet Cong.
Who will the SBVFT crop out of the picture or edit out of the videotape this time? Henry Kissinger?
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(It's actually started already, but nobody is listening yet).
Methinks I am not listening to the right radio stations.
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It's kinda funny how Ashcroft was the Darth Vader back in the day, then it was Rumsfeld, then Cheney. Now "Karl Rove" is this evil mastermind.
You are saying that because I am mentioning poliical strategist Rove -- the producer/director of "John McCain's Black Baby!" -- in the appropriate home-stretch election context, that I have somehow forgotten about all of the other evil, arrogant bastards you have mentioned? Looks like some sort of a straw man or misdirection to me.
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I think the root of this is that it's hard for you to believe that someone on "your side" was dumb enough to do this and that it is going to backfire so badly on Kerry's chance to win. Seriously, that's a hard pill to swallow. Oh the irony!
Double-spaced telegram to Brad: CBS, Burkett, Kerry and the DNC aren't on "my side".
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I think you'd have a better case saying that Bush started the hurricanes
Straw man. I can say with confidence that Bush did not start the recent hurricanes. He started something much worse.
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I really don't see the relation here. Last I heard this was under investigation and to be honest, the only person that can end this is Novak.
Novak, oh or that guy who is supposed to be in charge and who *says* he is interested in getting to the bottom of it, but who would, in reality, enjoy the product of his people's criminal activity. No firings of the loyal in this White House.
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Just because I prefer to believe a theory that actually makes sense
The "Burkett done it" theory is plausible, but I am not sure I am going to get too attached to any particular theory quite yet.
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and doesn't require dozens of uncontrollable circumstances to fall into place perfectly doesn't make me naive.
Dozens of uncontrollable circumstances? No. Just a no-lose/could-win roll of the dice. See above.
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Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#234243 - 21/09/2004 14:24
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Home for lunch!
Well, I see things differently (almost polar!) in that I think the Democrats have run the dirty campaign here ala 527's and Micheal Moore. The Republicans have just been more successful. Also, I think it's the very things that Bush stands for that generate so much anger towards him, so it's hard to say he doesn't stand for anything. Saying he doesn't stand for anything you like might be more accurate. Kerry on the other hand stands for "Anyone But Bush". The Bush haters come from all sorts of backgrounds, so it's hard for him to have one solid image without losing part of that "base".
However, like you said, all of this will mean nothing very soon. It's all going to come down to the debates.
One problem I see for Democrats in the debates is that they picture Bush has being an idiot. Because of this, they've lowered our expectations of him. Now, he just has to do "okay" and he will have done better than we thought he would have. That will win him some votes.
I can't stomache Kerry only because he sticks his finger in the wind and votes or makes speaches based on what he think people will like on that given day. That's not leadership by any stretch. That's pandering.
I really wish that Lieberman would have been nominated by you guys! I know he's not pretty, but I respect him.
EDIT: Jim, it's only a 20 minute lunch so I'll get to you later!
Edited by SE_Sport_Driver (21/09/2004 14:25)
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Brad B.
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#234244 - 21/09/2004 14:39
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Well, both of us are simply speculating so there are only a few things I wanted to reply to..
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Double-spaced telegram to Brad: CBS, Burkett, Kerry and the DNC aren't on "my side".
I assumed all five parties want Bush to lose the November Presidental election.
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The "Burkett done it" theory is plausible, but I am not sure I am going to get too attached to any particular theory quite yet.
Fair enough. We're only 2 weeks into this thing, it could get much more interesting. Your posts did come off as supporting the Rove conspiracy theory, but it seems you are just supporting the "plausibiity" of it. I think it's a waste of time and just adds to the straw city of conspiracy theories against the Bush administration, but we'll see what comes out in the news in the following weeks. My only concern is that regardless of what light is shed on this, people will still cling to "it's Bush's fault!"
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Dozens of uncontrollable circumstances? No.
Actually, yes. If Rove did this, he would have had no control over CBS or any of the people that looked at this thing that let it goto air. He would have to "hope" they wouldn't do a 20 second Google search on Burkett. He would have to "hope" they would ignore interviews with the family of the comanding officer or any other Guardsmen who served with Bush. He would also have no control over CBS standing by their "impeachable" sources who say Bush was "selected not elected."
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Just a no-lose/could-win roll of the dice. See above.
Could win? Only if all of these peices that he would have no control over fall into place. No-lose? Are you serious? Him being exposed in such a fraud would be about as bad as Watergate.
_________________________
Brad B.
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#234245 - 21/09/2004 14:49
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Kerry on the other hand stands for "Anyone But Bush". The Bush haters come from all sorts of backgrounds, so it's hard for him to have one solid image without losing part of that "base".
I think you're wrong. No matter what platform he takes, he'll still not be Bush, and that's enough.
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One problem I see for Democrats in the debates is that they picture Bush has being an idiot.
Bush is an idiot. He just has masterminds behind him. You might say that that's what a leader should be like, but he should be controlling his smart people. In this case, I believe that the smart people are controlling him.
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I really wish that Lieberman would have been nominated by you guys! I know he's not pretty, but I respect him.
That's because he's a neoconservative who never bothered to cross party lines back in the 70s or 80s. In other words, he's a Republican in sheep's clothing -- a socially and fiscally conservative hawk who's a Democrat.
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Bitt Faulk
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#234246 - 21/09/2004 14:54
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Only if all of these peices that he would have no control over fall into place. No-lose? Are you serious? Him being exposed in such a fraud would be about as bad as Watergate.
But if it's an obvious fraud, no one would have done any real investigation to find out who was behind it. It's just that CBS really dropped the ball and ran it anyway. It's like a sacrifice bunt that got dropped by the pitcher and thrown over the first baseman's head into the stands.
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Bitt Faulk
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#234248 - 21/09/2004 15:27
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: DLF]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Keep in mind that Lieberman is also interested in expanding corporate rights, wants to get rid of "bad" music and video games, etc. He stands for basically everything I'm against. At least he's more fiscally conservative than most of the Republican party these days. (For that matter, the Democrats are, too. While both want to spend lots of money, at least the Democrats are up front about having taxpayers pay for it. The Republicans just want to borrow all that money and leave it to be paid off later, just like some idiot who maxes out all his credit cards.) I fully believe that he would have switched party lines in the 80s had he not been a state AG and, as such, not involved in national politics.
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Bitt Faulk
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#234249 - 21/09/2004 15:44
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Democrats have run the dirty campaign here ala 527's
The 527 activity is fair game on both sides, and neither candidate wants them to go away. Only the Bush camp took them to the extreme level of questioning military service. All the Democratic 527 ads (and I've watched dozens of different ones) prior to the Swift Boat Veterans fiasco were strictly about Bush's own record and how he's failed America. Obviously, they were negative ads, but nothing that sunk to the depths of questioning a soldier's service to his country. Even for several weeks after the Swift Boat ads ran, the Democratic 527 ads were still focusing on Bush's CURRENT failures instead of going below the belt and delving into the past. Finally, the Dems caught up and started really going after Bush. But it's factually incorrect to say that the campaigns have been run with the same level of "dirtyness." The Swift Boat attacks have lowered the common denominator even further, and I can only assume mud wrestling is next. (Yuck!)
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so it's hard to say he doesn't stand for anything.
Yes, he stands for the elimination of WMDs in Iraq. Oh wait, they're fresh out of those. Okay, he stands for liberating the Iraqi people. And he's doing such a good job that even Republican Dick Lugar, chair of the Foreign Relations Committee, cites incompetence in how post-"liberation" Iraq is being handled.
So, if we've "liberated" Iraq, surely we must be winning the war on terror. Oh, wait, Bush said the war on terror wasn't winnable. Then, he said it is winnable. Seems to me if you're going to declare war on a TACTIC instead of a nation, a dictator, etc. then you better have your feces consolidated on whether the war is winnable or not. How about his pledge to not get involved in "nation building?" Sure looks, smells, and quacks like nation building to me.
Okay, let's try another. He absolutely stands for the eradication of Osama bin Laden. Er... crap, we can't get bin Laden. Okay, he stands for the removal of Saddam. Even Donald Rumsfeld is confused. And Bush's flip flop? In his own words:
[flip]
"The most important thing is for us to find Osama Bin Laden. It is our No. 1 priority and we will not rest until we find him." -- George W. Bush, Sept. 13, 2001.
[/flip]
[flop]
"I don't know where he is. I have no idea, and I really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority." -- George W. Bush, March 13, 2002.
[flop]
Alright, hitting Bush for his flip-flops on Iraq and the "war on terror" is way too easy, so let's look closer to home. He supported free trade, but to get my state's votes, flip-flopped to supporting steel tariffs. Then, amid criticism, he's flipped back. So, a "flip - flop - flip," if you will.
How about the recent expiration of the assault weapons ban? To get votes in 2000, he pledged to extend Clinton's 1994 ban, and, whoops, I guess he's too busy campaigning to bother following through on his promise.
The best way I've heard this double-standard explained is from this editorial. "By staying on the offensive, Bush has put the focus on Kerry flip-flops and deflected attention away from his own." I just hope the Dems can organize well enough to expose Bush for being fraudulent on the very same grounds that he's attacking Kerry. Once that's done, the playing field will be level, and we can focus on the "issues" so many people talk about, but don't seem to gather real votes.
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