#238200 - 19/10/2004 10:57
Across the pond
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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This is hilarious. Ever get the feeling some folks don't understand satire. 
_________________________
Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#238202 - 19/10/2004 12:46
Re: Across the pond
[Re: frog51]
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addict
Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
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I think Laura Bush may have written this one:
Quote:
Real Americans aren't interested in your pansy-ass, tea-sipping opinions. If you want to save the world, begin with your own worthless corner of it.
Texas, USA
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#238203 - 19/10/2004 12:48
Re: Across the pond
[Re: frog51]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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I like: Quote:
Please be advised that I have forwarded this to the CIA and FBI.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#238204 - 19/10/2004 13:17
Re: Across the pond
[Re: webroach]
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veteran
Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
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Quote:
Once again, the comments made by my countrymen make me ashamed to be American. At least I can take solace in the fact that I have nearly nothing in common with most of them.
Right, because you are so OBVIOUSLY better than those people who responded.
Take any cross-section of any society and you will get comments with just as varying amounts of wisdom/eloquence. Being dumb, ignorant, racist or imperialistic is not the sole realm of Americans. Accept the fact that you live in a society that is free to express their opinion, if you agree with it or not. You do not know the content of the e-mail that was sent to those people. As I understand it, the e-mail content sent to a person from Clark county (45 minutes from my house, and where my wife graduated from college) was left up to the individual who requested an e-mail address from the Guardian's webpage. I would imagine some letters sent could have been just as nasty.
I think the vast majority of people who recieved e-mails from across the pond either a) ignored them, b) politely declined the advice given (this is what I would do), or c) the e-mail was caught in their spam filter and deleted. The people who responded with offensive comments are going to be the loudmouth redneck types who are not representative of Americans as a whole. Which ones do you think the Guardian would have printed? This letter is not exactly a polite request, it is more: "Your administration sucks, here's how to vote in November". Americans, above all, hate being told what to do or how to think. This is especially true when it comes to politics.
We in the US at least are able to respect others who do not share the same views as we do. I get the feeling that this is not true in other countries.
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#238205 - 19/10/2004 13:43
Re: Across the pond
[Re: cushman]
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/03/2003
Posts: 269
Loc: Wellingborough, UK
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I sit by my keyboard waiting to be proved wrong, but I don't think the Guardian actually gave out email addresses - it was just satire. It would seem that the replies were all to the Guardian in response to their editorial, not emails they actually received (although I guess it is possible for some stupid Britons to find an email address for someone in that county independently and then do as the Guardian suggests).
Edit: again: the humour is in the notion that (the people of) a democratic country would even consider interfering with the cracy (political power) of another country.
Edited by mdavey (19/10/2004 13:50)
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#238206 - 19/10/2004 13:55
Re: Across the pond
[Re: cushman]
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/03/2003
Posts: 269
Loc: Wellingborough, UK
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Quote:
We in the US at least are able to respect others who do not share the same views as we do. I get the feeling that this is not true in other countries.
Must be a geographic thing, then. Yes, it was in France but some of those that were not respecting the views of others, it would seem (according to that same article) were in fact young Americans.
[edit: for accuracy]
Edited by mdavey (19/10/2004 13:58)
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#238207 - 20/10/2004 05:30
Re: Across the pond
[Re: cushman]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
Quote:
Once again, the comments made by my countrymen make me ashamed to be American. At least I can take solace in the fact that I have nearly nothing in common with most of them.
Right, because you are so OBVIOUSLY better than those people who responded.
Actually, no. I just don't share most American's taste for childish attacks towards people that don't fit nicely into their ethnocentric worldview.
Quote:
Take any cross-section of any society and you will get comments with just as varying amounts of wisdom/eloquence. Being dumb, ignorant, racist or imperialistic is not the sole realm of Americans.
You're correct. But Americans sure can corner the market on taking belligerent pride in being all those things, can't they?
Quote:
Accept the fact that you live in a society that is free to express their opinion, if you agree with it or not.
Hrm... I think I made reference to the "comments of my countrymen", not their right to make said comments. I agree 100% with the right to express one's opinion. I, however, think that with that right comes a modicum of responsibility.
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You do not know the content of the e-mail that was sent to those people.
Nor do you...
Quote:
As I understand it, the e-mail content sent to a person from Clark county (45 minutes from my house, and where my wife graduated from college) was left up to the individual who requested an e-mail address from the Guardian's webpage. I would imagine some letters sent could have been just as nasty.
You should have spent more time reading the article that you did getting mad at my comment.
The only email came from Americans. The Guardian set up a program where Brits could sign up to get the "name and address" of a Clark county voter. They could then send a snail mail letter to the voter in question. I find nothing in any of the responses from Americans shown on the Guardian website that even hint at the possibility that anyone has even received a letter from a Brit yet.
Quote:
I think the vast majority of people who recieved e-mails from across the pond either a) ignored them, b) politely declined the advice given (this is what I would do), or c) the e-mail was caught in their spam filter and deleted. The people who responded with offensive comments are going to be the loudmouth redneck types who are not representative of Americans as a whole.
I think we've already covered the whole "email" issue. If nothing else, one should question how the Guardian would have gotten the email address for all registered voters in Clark county.
And, sadly, I do think that the loudmouth redneck is somewhat representative of America's global image. Are all Americans like that? Of course not. Are many? Yes. Even our president puts forth the "good ol' boy" image.
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Which ones do you think the Guardian would have printed?
Was this a rhetorical question? Of course they're going to print the ones that make it seem that they're correct in their views. Just as the American media spins everything to be positive for the US, or at least as positive as possible.
Quote:
This letter is not exactly a polite request, it is more: "Your administration sucks, here's how to vote in November".
Actually, your paraphrase sounds more like most of the emails the Guardian received. The letter you link to, while definitly biased, is at least coherent, not ALL IN CAPS, and uses proper grammar. Is it a bit preachy? You bet. But at least it's thoughtfully written.
Quote:
Americans, above all, hate being told what to do or how to think. This is especially true when it comes to politics.
I have to disagree. I think most people in America love to be told how to think. Especially when it comes to politics. I don't know about you, but I've been assaulted by political ads on TV telling me how to think for the past couple of months.
Quote:
We in the US at least are able to respect others who do not share the same views as we do. I get the feeling that this is not true in other countries.
Sadly, you're right. The poor girl had to lie so she wouldn't be hassled. I can only speak for myself, but I find it hard to feel sorry for someone who not only is proud of being partisan to the bone, but doesn't even have the intestinal fortitude to stand up for what she believes in. Not to mention how reassuring it is to have her point out that it's ok to lie in politics. Do I think we can ever get rid of lies in politics? No. But it's a sad state of affairs when we just accept it out of habit.
_________________________
Dave
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#238208 - 20/10/2004 05:49
Re: Across the pond
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Quote:
Actually, no. I just don't share most American's taste for childish attacks towards people that don't fit nicely into their ethnocentric worldview.
I never even met most American. How'd he (or she) get that title?
Quote:
You're correct. But Americans sure can corner the market on taking belligerent pride in being all those things, can't they?
Probably not. Cornering the market is hard. Ask the Hunt brothers.
Quote:
Quote:
We in the US at least are able to respect others who do not share the same views as we do.
And taking a moment to meta-comment, that's a load of crap. I've seen and heard of more removed or defaced Kerry signs than Bush signs, but also a non-zero number of Bush signs. Would someone who agreed deface or remove them? Is that mature, respectful behavior?
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#238209 - 20/10/2004 06:02
Re: Across the pond
[Re: Daria]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
Quote:
Actually, no. I just don't share most American's taste for childish attacks towards people that don't fit nicely into their ethnocentric worldview.
I never even met most American. How'd he (or she) get that title?
I've a sneaking suspicion that your comment is referring to grammar, perhaps a misplaced apostrophe. If so, I'll ignore it as a waste of time. But I did make a gross generalization there. Please allow me to correct it to "most Americans that I personally have known". And given that I grew up in America, I consider it a decent representative sample.
Quote:
Quote:
You're correct. But Americans sure can corner the market on taking belligerent pride in being all those things, can't they?
Probably not. Cornering the market is hard. Ask the Hunt brothers.
I'm gonna have to stand my ground on this one, with the slight modification to "try to corner the market". I have never met another nationality that can be so proud of ignorant, imperialistic attitudes.
Quote:
Quote:
We in the US at least are able to respect others who do not share the same views as we do.
And taking a moment to meta-comment, that's a load of crap. I've seen and heard of more removed or defaced Kerry signs than Bush signs, but also a non-zero number of Bush signs. Would someone who agreed deface or remove them? Is that mature, respectful behavior?
Couldn't agree more.
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Dave
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#238210 - 20/10/2004 06:32
Re: Across the pond
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Actually, no. I just don't share most American's taste for childish attacks towards people that don't fit nicely into their ethnocentric worldview.
I never even met most American. How'd he (or she) get that title?
I've a sneaking suspicion that your comment is referring to grammar, perhaps a misplaced apostrophe. If so, I'll ignore it as a waste of time.
You're right, you wasted a lot of extra time sticking that extra apostrophe in there 
Quote:
But I did make a gross generalization there. Please allow me to correct it to "most Americans that I personally have known". And given that I grew up in America, I consider it a decent representative sample.
Yeah, see, the generalization didn't bother me, that damn apostrophe, though...
Quote:
I'm gonna have to stand my ground on this one, with the slight modification to "try to corner the market". I have never met another nationality that can be so proud of ignorant, imperialistic attitudes.
Not us. We don't even use imperial gallons, we made our own 
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#238211 - 20/10/2004 06:47
Re: Across the pond
[Re: webroach]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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To be fair, there are an awful lot of Americans, so 11000 emails is not a huge percentage. There will always be some rabid nutters anywhere - and this little spoof definitely drew some out.
I have to say, though, that all the Americans I have met over here seem to share the same dismay that those of their contrymen who have never left the US to see the rest of the world do misunderstand the world's opinion of the US in a big way.
I can see why - in the US you can travel 3000 miles and still be in the same country, so it may seem that nothing else is important. In Europe you could visit pretty much every country in the same distance (ish - I haven't really calculated this one) so you are made very aware of the multitude of different viewpoints, languages etc.
_________________________
Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#238212 - 20/10/2004 11:17
Re: Across the pond
[Re: frog51]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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Ahem.. coming from a somewhat larger country, I'm not sure that semi-vast distances explain much here..
EDIT:
It is more just the sheer isolated nature of the USA. The country borders on conquered Mexico to the south, and Canada to the north. And since the USA has considerably more soldiers and equipment than either of their neighbours, they generally just get to play bully in the sandbox, without worrying what anyone else thinks or cares. All of the countries populated enough to shove back are simply far enough away not to matter to them.
Cheer
Edited by mlord (20/10/2004 11:21)
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#238213 - 20/10/2004 11:30
Re: Across the pond
[Re: mlord]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Nice description I by no means meant to include Canada, Greenland, Russia and...erm...other really big chunks of land in my previous sweeping statement.
_________________________
Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#238214 - 20/10/2004 11:34
Re: Across the pond
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
they generally just get to play bully in the sandbox
Or should that instead be, elephant in a china shop? Mmm.. that's a different way of looking at it, and might fit equally well..
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#238215 - 20/10/2004 11:40
Re: Across the pond
[Re: mlord]
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old hand
Registered: 20/07/1999
Posts: 1102
Loc: UK
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Possibly tapdancing rhino in a minefield? Sooner or later you just know a foot is going to be blown off pca
_________________________
Experience is what you get just after it would have helped...
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#238216 - 20/10/2004 11:57
Re: Across the pond
[Re: webroach]
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veteran
Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
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Here is my point: I believe most people who live in the US are able to think for themselves, concerned about politics and concerned about world affairs (albeit with a bias toward world affairs that affect the US). This majority is the non-vocal majority, those who go about their daily business in Small Town, USA without posting on Internet message boards, responding to Guardian articles or doing TV interviews.
The minority of loudmouth right or left wingers give the world a view of the US that I feel is inaccurate.
You say you are ashamed to be an American. I am proud to be an American because of that non-vocal majority of sane, level-headed people that to many people's eyes are invisible. I see those people more often in my town than right or left wing wackos.
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#238217 - 20/10/2004 12:02
Re: Across the pond
[Re: Daria]
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veteran
Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
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Quote:
Quote:
We in the US at least are able to respect others who do not share the same views as we do.
And taking a moment to meta-comment, that's a load of crap. I've seen and heard of more removed or defaced Kerry signs than Bush signs, but also a non-zero number of Bush signs. Would someone who agreed deface or remove them? Is that mature, respectful behavior?
You are trying to refute my comment by giving an example of vandalism? Come up with something better than that.
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#238218 - 20/10/2004 16:16
Re: Across the pond
[Re: cushman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
We in the US at least are able to respect others who do not share the same views as we do.
And taking a moment to meta-comment, that's a load of crap. I've seen and heard of more removed or defaced Kerry signs than Bush signs, but also a non-zero number of Bush signs. Would someone who agreed deface or remove them? Is that mature, respectful behavior?
You are trying to refute my comment by giving an example of vandalism? Come up with something better than that.
Why? There are other nearby signs which are not vandalized, it's clearly targeted vandalism.
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#238219 - 20/10/2004 16:19
Re: Across the pond
[Re: cushman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Quote:
Here is my point: I believe most people who live in the US are able to think for themselves, concerned about politics and concerned about world affairs (albeit with a bias toward world affairs that affect the US).
Many (not most) with a considerable bias toward that, in some cases overtly so.
Don't get the wrong idea, I'm not drawing the conclusion that Americans are better or worse than anyone else in particular; I don't know. I'm just telling you what I see.
Quote:
You say you are ashamed to be an American. I am proud to be an American because of that non-vocal majority of sane, level-headed people that to many people's eyes are invisible. I see those people more often in my town than right or left wing wackos.
Try working at a college, in a neighborhood with another college nearby. All sorts of nuts, on all sides of the issues. Maybe I *am* jaded, but I didn't get this way because I was bored.
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#238220 - 20/10/2004 16:33
Re: Across the pond
[Re: Daria]
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veteran
Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
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Quote:
Why? There are other nearby signs which are not vandalized, it's clearly targeted vandalism.
My original point was that people in the US tend to respect opinions that are different. You called this a load of crap, and cited an example of vandalism (something that your average "people in the US" would not do). How does your example of vandalism, something that is not performed by the majority of people in the US, back up your statement that people in the US do not respect other viewpoints?
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#238221 - 20/10/2004 16:59
Re: Across the pond
[Re: cushman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Quote:
Quote:
Why? There are other nearby signs which are not vandalized, it's clearly targeted vandalism.
My original point was that people in the US tend to respect opinions that are different. You called this a load of crap, and cited an example of vandalism (something that your average "people in the US" would not do). How does your example of vandalism, something that is not performed by the majority of people in the US, back up your statement that people in the US do not respect other viewpoints?
You added majority in the lower sentence, it wasn't present in the upper one. If you want to phrase it that way, it proves nothing, but that's not what you said before.
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#238222 - 21/10/2004 00:36
Re: Across the pond
[Re: cushman]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
My original point was that people in the US tend to respect opinions that are different. You called this a load of crap.....
Uh...it IS a load of crap. Don't get me wrong Mark. I know there are a lot of good people out there. But how can you say Americans respect opinions that are different from their own?
I don't see people respecting the opinion of gay couples who want to marry, do you? Sure, there are some, and in a large country like the US, "some" adds up to quite a few people. But still, are we respecting that opinion?
I sure didn't see anyone respecting the opinions of the Guardian readers or staff, either.
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Dave
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#238223 - 21/10/2004 10:55
Re: Across the pond
[Re: webroach]
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veteran
Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
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Quote:
Quote:
My original point was that people in the US tend to respect opinions that are different. You called this a load of crap.....
Uh...it IS a load of crap. Don't get me wrong Mark. I know there are a lot of good people out there. But how can you say Americans respect opinions that are different from their own?
Different point of view, I guess. I do not agree with you on this point, but...
I still respect your opinion.
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#238224 - 21/10/2004 11:00
Re: Across the pond
[Re: cushman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Now, if this were an episode of Star Trek (original series), this logic loop would destroy whatever entity was trying to analyze it, allowing the Enterprise to escape unharmed in the last five minutes of the show...
_________________________
Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs
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#238225 - 21/10/2004 11:11
Re: Across the pond
[Re: pgrzelak]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Sadly without the attractive alien love interest who got stuck in the logic loop, leaving poor Kirk alone once again...
_________________________
Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#238226 - 21/10/2004 14:07
Re: Across the pond
[Re: frog51]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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#238227 - 21/10/2004 14:22
Re: Across the pond
[Re: cushman]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
My original point was that people in the US tend to respect opinions that are different. You called this a load of crap.....
Uh...it IS a load of crap. Don't get me wrong Mark. I know there are a lot of good people out there. But how can you say Americans respect opinions that are different from their own?
Different point of view, I guess. I do not agree with you on this point, but...
I still respect your opinion.
I appreciate that, Mark. But I do have to point out that you ignored / chose not to quote the part of my post that gave my example of one way Americans do not respect the opinions of others.
I find that sort of interesting.
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Dave
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#238228 - 21/10/2004 15:11
Re: Across the pond
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
But I do have to point out that you ignored / chose not to quote the part of my post that gave my example of one way Americans do not respect the opinions of others.
I find that sort of interesting.
I think he was trying to drop the discussion in a graceful way. But if you insist on talking about your specic examples:
Quote:
I don't see people respecting the opinion of gay couples who want to marry, do you? Sure, there are some, and in a large country like the US, "some" adds up to quite a few people. But still, are we respecting that opinion?
Gay marriage is a far murkier subject than simply respecting opinions. You can't make a legal statement one way or the other without stepping on someone's opinion. But the important thing is that respecting another's option doesn't mean agreeing with it, it means seperating people from their views and recognizing that however much you might dissagree with somone else, you never have a right to be abusive or denegrade them. Saying "I don't think gays should marry" is not intolerant or disrespectful. You can disagree with the statement, challenge it's validity, or even believe it to be backward and of 0 value, but in the end it's a point of view and the person stating it has every right to do so, despite it's validity. Or put another way, if everyone agreed on the issue of gay marriage, what difference would anyone be tolerating or respecting? The fact is that gay people get married every day and their right to do so is respected. Pastors stand up in church every week (somewhere I'm sure) and say that it's wrong, and their right to do so is respected. Whether the law should recognize the former officially is about determining what marriage is in the legal sense and why it's important to the government. I repeat: this is far more complicated than simply respecting opinions.
Quote:
I sure didn't see anyone respecting the opinions of the Guardian readers or staff, either.
Of all the people who have read the Guardian, how many have you heard from? Yes many of the printed letters were disrespectful, but it is likely only a VERY small subset even made their opinions known and even a smaller number were printed publically. I'm sure there were TONS of people who thought the Guardian was out of line who respectfully didn't air their views. There were probably even some who wrote in to say they thought it was a bad idea without denegrading the Guardian or it's staff.
I'm not arguing for or against whether Americans respect others in general, but I do think your examples fall short of proving your point. Respect is not about agreeing with or even believing that another's viewpoint has merit, it is about the way you treat others when you disagree.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#238229 - 21/10/2004 15:14
Re: Across the pond
[Re: webroach]
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veteran
Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
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Quote:
I appreciate that, Mark. But I do have to point out that you ignored / chose not to quote the part of my post that gave my example of one way Americans do not respect the opinions of others.
I find that sort of interesting.
I did not want this thread to turn into a gay marriage debate, that's all. If we can keep it on-topic (Americans respecting the opinions of others), we can continue. Here is your quote:
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I don't see people respecting the opinion of gay couples who want to marry, do you? Sure, there are some, and in a large country like the US, "some" adds up to quite a few people. But still, are we respecting that opinion?
The argument of Americans who are against "gay marriage" is simply one of language. They believe that the term "marriage" is reserved for a male-female relationship. As much as they respect the right of people to have same-sex unions, they would like to have their interpretation of the word "marriage" honored also. The majority of Americans are not against same-sex unions. They are not against people who are gay. They are against someone calling a union between two people of the same sex "marriage".
Americans who wish to call a same-sex union "marriage" are asking our government to make this law. Americans who wish to retain the word "marriage" for a man and a woman are also asking the same thing. Eventually our country will have to decide one way or another, but this does not mean that either party cannot understand (and respect the opinion of) the other side's viewpoint. You could call it a polite disagreement. When this happens in America, we all orderly file to the voting booths and let our opinion be heard.
Take your average American gay couple, pair them with your average American straight couple, and send them out to dinner to have a discussion. If they disagree on this issue, most of the time this would result in both couples saying: "They were pleasant, I just did not agree with their viewpoints". I say rarely would you have a fistfight or loud argument. This is the type of "respect my opinion" that I am talking about.
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