#240017 - 05/11/2004 14:49
Re: Can we stop the bashing now?
[Re: Daria]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Hahahahahaha. 
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Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs
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#240018 - 05/11/2004 15:08
Re: Can we stop the bashing now?
[Re: djc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
it seems to me that the discussion of gay marriage often gets a bit abstract or theoretical (or theological?), and I want to remind you that beyond the abstract of "defending marriage", the place this issue hits home is in my home, and perhaps the homes of friends or family members of your own.
I completely understand this, and I must admit to speaking about this subject in a very cold and philosophical manner rather than a personal one. It is very easy to forget that there are people at the core of these issues.
Having said that, this IS a personal issue for me, and “defending marriage” is not simply some sterile code to which I adhere. The concept I have of marriage is one of the most important things I believe, and unfortunately your definition and mine are mutually exclusive. We can talk more about “legal definitions” and such, but the comment you reacted to was not one about my political beliefs but about my philosophical/theological beliefs.
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Could you tell your gay brother that his happiness in a long-term relationship is not worthy of the same recognition as your own?
I honestly don’t have family members who are homosexuals, but I do have family members who have done other things that I consider to be sinful. An example is my sister who was living with her boyfriend. I consider this as much a sin as homosexual behavior. She knew that, recognized that we had different stands on the issue, and we moved on. She and her boyfriend were always welcome in our home and I never treated them differently because of my beliefs. When she became pregnant, I was one of the people she turned to for support when many in my family made life very difficult for her. We have a mature enough relationship that we can disagree with each other's choices on moral grounds and still be great friends.
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Can you look into someone's eyes and tell them their relationship is not worthy of recognition and respect under the law?
Personally, I don’t think the law should recognize relationships at all. Unfortunately it does, so to that end I believe you should have the same rights as I do. What I don’t want, however, is for the State to enforce your view about what the covenant of marriage is upon me. That is why I think Civil Unions are the best option we have, even if it is an imperfect solution. This is, btw, a big difference between myself and many conservatives, and probably makes me enemies on all sides.
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Assuming that we can't be eliminated from the planet
Just to state this emphatically, I would never want anyone to be eliminated from the planet. If homosexuality behavior were to be eliminated, it would have to be by people changing. But moving on, assuming that doesn’t happen . . .Quote:
what standard of behavior would you like gay men and lesbians to aspire to? Is it in society's best interest for us to be coupled, or not? Should we encourage fidelity, and stability in these relationships? If not, what's the alternative?
I think it is in societies best interest for stable, healthy relationships even if not in what I think of as “marriage”. That extends not just to homosexual marriages, but to those living together pre-marriage and other relationships. To put it on a more personal note, my hope for you would be that you would ultimately seek to trust Christ and seek to follow God, which would ultimately mean seeking to change your behavior. However, barring that, I can hope you find fulfillment and stability in your relationship.
On an aside, as I don’t speak with homosexuals often, what is the most appropriate term: “gay” or “homosexual”, or are both acceptable? I know certain words often carry negative connotations, but I have no idea what the use of either of these terms communicates to you.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#240019 - 05/11/2004 15:57
Re: Can we stop the bashing now?
[Re: JeffS]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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Quote:
I honestly don’t have family members who are homosexuals, but I do have family members who have done other things that I consider to be sinful. An example is my sister who was living with her boyfriend. I consider this as much a sin as homosexual behavior. She knew that, recognized that we had different stands on the issue, and we moved on. She and her boyfriend were always welcome in our home and I never treated them differently because of my beliefs. When she became pregnant, I was one of the people she turned to for support when many in my family made life very difficult for her. We have a mature enough relationship that we can disagree with each other's choices on moral grounds and still be great friends.
Ok, I have to bite on this, not because you brought your sister into the discussion, but because you have (at least) twice now generalised homosexuality into a sin and opined from that position.
Would you support a change in your state's Constitution that would ban 'living in sin'? What about a change in the US Constitution? If a presidential candidate campaigned on such a platform would it make you more likely to vote for him?
What about a constitutional change to enforce marriage where pregnancy is concerned? After all, it would prevent further sin. Would you support a candidate who espoused this position?
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Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962
sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.
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#240020 - 05/11/2004 16:17
Re: Can we stop the bashing now?
[Re: genixia]
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old hand
Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
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Most “Jesus teaching book” (bibles) refer to premarital sex and homosexuality as a sin. You can then take that as far as you want, stone them, burn them at the stake or as Jeff is pointing out tolerate them and be kind to them even if you disagree with their actions. According again to many Jesus bibles man is not the judge God is.
The biggest problems with most religions are the “People,” not the teaching. Look at the Muslims that cut people’s heads off in the name of religion, talk about carrying something a bit far.
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#240021 - 05/11/2004 16:26
Re: Can we stop the bashing now?
[Re: genixia]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
Would you support a change in your state's Constitution that would ban 'living in sin'? What about a change in the US Constitution? If a presidential candidate campaigned on such a platform would it make you more likely to vote for him?
Absolutely not. As I've said many times already, I don't think you can force people to be moral. I ultimately agree with Doug that the purpose of the law is to keep people from hurting one another. Unless a sin has drastic enough earthly consequences (such as murder), it should remain in the realm of personal freedom. My opposition to legal gay marriage is not an attempt to make homosexuals live according to my moral values.
I tried to talk my sister out of her decision, but it was her decision to make. The law doesn’t recognize that relationship one way or the other, nor should it. If it started regarding it as a marriage, I’d object. That is, I’d object to a man and woman being considered married if there is no long-term (“till death do us part”) commitment to on another.
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What about a constitutional change to enforce marriage where pregnancy is concerned? After all, it would prevent further sin. Would you support a candidate who espoused this position?
No. Wedding for the sake of a pregnancy can absolutely destroy a couple and their child if they don’t understand the commitment they’re making. Marriage is a HUGE commitment and responsibility, and if the decision is made under coercion could result in even more sin and painfulness.
As a matter of fact, when my sister got pregnant, the first question my family asked was whether she should get married before or after the child. No one even paused to consider whether non-marriage was even a choice. I sat down with my sister and talked to her about the huge commitment marriage was, and that while a healthy marriage would probably be a better environment for raising a child, if that was her only thought she might end up miserable and with a child in an even worse position. She took this advise very seriously and decided that she and her boyfriend really wanted to make that commitment and so they did. They are a very happy, very loving couple and good friends of ours. She is one of the best mother's I've ever met and her child is great. I've known other couples who've forced themselves into marriage that have become miserable and embittered beyond words.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#240022 - 05/11/2004 18:06
Re: Can we stop the bashing now?
[Re: Redrum]
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member
Registered: 10/09/2004
Posts: 127
Loc: Bay Area, CA/Anchorage, AK
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I have to jump in again on two things: Nobody outside the conservative religious community still considers homosexuality a choice--and I've had friends very unhappy that they were. I suppose the practice of it is a choice, but how many of us seriously advocate lifelong celibacy? Even in institutions which sanctify it, it doesn't appear to work too well, as witness the priests'scandals. Also, please show me where in the Bible it is condemned; the "spilling seed upon the ground" regards onanism. Second, as I've also said before, the meaning of marriage is defined by the two people who make it--often as they go along. For myself, I'd agree that the ideal is lifelong, loving commitment; I've also failed (with help) at that commitment. Many people enter marriage conditionally, for as long as it feels good. Some enter it for financial or other practical considerations such as citizenship; while I don't personally agree with either, the law recognizes them equally--though when it can be proved, the citizenship dodge is an exception. I could make the same arguement about sex--for many it manifests a deeply meaningful connection, for some it's good, clean fun, for others it's as meaningful (or meaningless) as a handshake; it also has its practical and financial aspects. Ditto friendship; few things are more meaningful to my life; for others it's a social expedient and/or offers financial/material advantage, and can also be a life-long commitment or a passing notion. The point is that none of us can or should define it for others. I agree that the legal protections desirable for society can be met separately from the institutions, and often already exist in the civil code. BTW, isn't it amazing that what started as a nitwit flaming thread has morphed into several substantial topics?! 
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#240023 - 05/11/2004 18:21
Re: Can we stop the bashing now?
[Re: kayakjazz]
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old hand
Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
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Quote:
I Also, please show me where in the Bible it is condemned;
The cities Sodom and Gomorra were both destroyed because of men lying with one another (God really put the hurt on them). Like the spilling of seed reference the bible does not use the term homosexual sex, but if you read about good O’L Lot and his two incestuous daughters you’ll get the picture. And it’s just as juicy as a Jerry Springer show.
Yes, these threads sure mutate. I think this one covered about everything. Except maybe government vs private healthcare. But we all know government healthcare is just of the devil right? 
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#240024 - 05/11/2004 20:15
Re: Can we stop the bashing now?
[Re: kayakjazz]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
please show me where in the Bible it is condemned
You might want to check out The Skeptic's Annotated Bible. They have categories of ... odd stuff ... and one of them is about homosexuality. Leviticus 18:22 -- "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." -- and 20:13 -- "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." -- are pretty clear about it.
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Bitt Faulk
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#240025 - 05/11/2004 21:06
Re: Can we stop the bashing now?
[Re: wfaulk]
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addict
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 510
Loc: NY
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You might want to check out The Skeptic's Annotated Bible. They have categories of ... odd stuff ... and one of them is about homosexuality. Leviticus 18:22 -- "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." -- and 20:13 -- "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." -- are pretty clear about it.
But what about lesbians?
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Heather
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -Susan B Anthony
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#240026 - 05/11/2004 21:08
Re: Can we stop the bashing now?
[Re: Heather]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Have you not figured out by now that women are irrelevant to the Bible's authors?
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Bitt Faulk
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#240027 - 06/11/2004 01:04
Re: Can we stop the bashing now?
[Re: wfaulk]
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member
Registered: 10/09/2004
Posts: 127
Loc: Bay Area, CA/Anchorage, AK
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Quote:
The Skeptic's Annotated Bible.
Thank you--for both the information and the reference; that sounds indispensable!
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#240028 - 09/11/2004 01:53
Re: Can we stop the bashing now?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." -- and 20:13 -- "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." -- are pretty clear about it.
Obligatory West Wing quote...
President Bartlet: I like how you call homosexuality an abombination.
Jenna Jacobs: I don't say homosexuality is an abomination, Mr. President, the Bible does.
President Bartlet: Yes, it does. Leviticus.
Jenna Jacobs: 18:22.
President Bartlet: Chapter and verse. I wanted to ask you a couple of questions while I have you here. I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophmore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleared the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be? While thinking about that, can I ask another? My Chief of Staff Leo McGarry insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police? Here's one that's really important because we've got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7. If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point? Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother John for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads? "Think about that, will you? Oh, and one last thing. You may have mistaken this for your meeting of the ignorant tight-asses club but in this building, when the President stands, nobody sits.
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#240029 - 09/11/2004 02:21
Re: Can we stop the bashing now?
[Re: tfabris]
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member
Registered: 10/09/2004
Posts: 127
Loc: Bay Area, CA/Anchorage, AK
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That is just perfectly brilliant; I love it! I can often do that, start a backfire with the biblical references I was raised with, but never half so well! One of the best monlogues ever...!
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#240030 - 09/11/2004 02:30
Re: Can we stop the bashing now?
[Re: kayakjazz]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Quote:
That is just perfectly brilliant; I love it! I can often do that, start a backfire with the biblical references I was raised with, but never half so well! One of the best monlogues ever...!
The joys of having writers. I'd probably not come off as the grumpy guy at work quite so much if I did.
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#240031 - 09/11/2004 02:43
Re: Can we stop the bashing now?
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 31/08/1999
Posts: 1649
Loc: San Carlos, CA
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Quote:
Obligatory West Wing quote...
Nice, I'm going to have to start watching that show.
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#240032 - 09/11/2004 03:09
Re: Can we stop the bashing now?
[Re: mcomb]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Nice, I'm going to have to start watching that show.
Get the first three seasons on DVD, those are Sorkin-penned and are the Good Stuff.
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#240033 - 09/11/2004 05:06
Re: Can we stop the bashing now?
[Re: mcomb]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Nice, I'm going to have to start watching that show.
I unabashedly rank The West Wing as not only the best show on network television today, but the best show that has ever been on network TV.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#240034 - 09/11/2004 05:50
Re: Can we stop the bashing now?
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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member
Registered: 10/09/2004
Posts: 127
Loc: Bay Area, CA/Anchorage, AK
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I unabashedly rank The West Wing as not only the best show on network television today, but the best show that has ever been on network TV.
tanstaafl.
Though no TV maven, the only possible competition IMHO was 'Northern Exposure,' which I got hooked on in NYC when I was doing it in reverse....so my perspective may have been skewed.
Edited by kayakjazz (09/11/2004 05:51)
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#240035 - 09/11/2004 11:13
Re: Can we stop the bashing now?
[Re: mcomb]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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By all means!
Sadly, Barlet character and most of his staff are an excercise in wishful thinking, not realism, but they are fun to watch (and sometimes even slightly though-provoking).
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#240036 - 09/11/2004 11:17
Re: Can we stop the bashing now?
[Re: kayakjazz]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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I just wanted to say that. My friends and I used to have weekly ritual collective "Nothern Exposure" watching. (Almost) never missed an episode.
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#240037 - 09/11/2004 12:48
Re: Can we stop the bashing now?
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Note that I never said that it wasn't taken out of context. It's just very clear on the matter. As well as very clear on all those other matters which today seem utterly ridiculous.
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Bitt Faulk
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#240039 - 10/11/2004 02:27
Re: Can we stop the bashing now?
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
You may have mistaken this for your meeting of the ignorant tight-asses club but in this building, when the President stands, nobody sits.
Sheen's delivery of this verbal evisceration was probably the tightest, most enjoyable moment of television I have ever experienced. If it isn't his best moment, I don't know what is.
(trying to decide if cheaper to get cable back or just buy used West Wing DVD sets!
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Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#240040 - 10/11/2004 03:46
Re: Can we stop the bashing now?
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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If it isn't his best moment, I don't know what is.
Quite possibly one of the best moments anybody ever had on network TV.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#240042 - 11/11/2004 23:06
Re: Can we stop the bashing now?
[Re: bonzi]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
But these two elude me. Has anyone any idea why are they there? OK, perhaps the later means 'no embroidery', no embelishments, just strict, functional and austere clothing (and they didn't have polymers )... But crops?
Ok, this is totally off the cuff and I don't have time to research it, so let me give some background and then take a "not-quite-thoroughly-informed" answer.
The first thing to point out is that this is from the OT law. That’s not to say it wasn’t there for a purpose, but it must be put into context to make sense. The purpose of the OT law was for the Israelites alone (meaning it should not be carried over into any other society’s rules) so that they would be set apart and reveal God to the world around them. If you look at the OT law, there are multiple aspects to the laws. Some laws were about worship practices (sacrifice x animal in y way to atone for z sin). There is nothing “moral” about sacrificing an animal a certain way, but it was pleasing to God because that was how He dictated it be done. Others were simply to help order in society (resolve disputes over x by doing y). Still others revealed aspects of how God defines morality. Some are combinations of various aspects, and while Christians today can draw cues from the law (such as that homosexual behavior is a sin), we don’t go around doing all of the things Bartlett suggested because the law was specifically for the Israelites at that time. In fact, the overriding purpose of the law was to show us that we cannot be as righteous as God dictates and so we need His mercy.
Regarding the specific two things above (garments and crops), a HUGE issue with the Israelites is that they were “God’s chosen people”, meaning that they were set apart specifically for the purpose of revealing God to all nations. To that end, much more was expected from them than any other nation (incidentally this is the reason they had some super-strict laws with super-strict consequences). It was important that the Israelites remember their special status and special responsibilities, so God gave them many symbols to remember that they were to remain set apart in their actions. These symbols did not define morality in and of themselves; the “moral” aspect was remembering their identity as a chosen race. I’m guessing that the practice of keeping crops and garment threads separated was symbolic worship practices in this vein.
If I have time I’ll do a little research into the context and see how close I am.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#240043 - 11/11/2004 23:18
Re: Can we stop the bashing now?
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
It was important that the Israelites remember their special status and special responsibilities, so God gave them many symbols to remember that they were to remain set apart in their actions.
"And thus God, on the umpteenth day, created Magnets"
/jim ducking!
Hey, for zero research, that was pretty good!
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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