#242368 - 23/11/2004 18:29
New laptop..... iBook or PC?
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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The insurance company look like they might be getting ready to pay up on my burglary, only 1 and 1/2 months after it happened. Although they're getting decidedly shitty about my spare empeg, claiming it's not covered as it's a car stereo. But anyway, i digress.....
I had two PC's stolen, my Myth box and a desktop machine in my study. Although both machines are quite up-to-date, it's dawned upon me that I never really use the desktop machine any more. So replacing it seems a little pointless. My laptop is a 4 year old Tosh Sat Pro which gets daily hammer at home and is beginning to fall apart (literally) it now has some rather annoying habits. So I've decided to use the money from the desktop to buy a new laptop instead.
Now here's the dilemma, should I buy a 12inch iBook for £749 or try and find something Intel based for a similar price? A friend of mine bought a new HP for £500 and it's horrible. £749 seems like a really good price, they're now putting Airport extreme in as standard and bluetooth is only £35. It would also be my final two fingers to Micro$oft (although VirtualPC looks intriguing). So what do you guys think? I know thinfourth converted a couple of years ago and loren and drakino are big Mac users. So come on, is it worth it?
_________________________
Cheers,
Andy M
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#242369 - 23/11/2004 18:36
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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I might know the answer in a couple of weeks, as Apple are lending me a G5 for a while to port some software from the PC to the Mac...
...though at the same time I'll be spending £800 on a new desktop PC for some other work I am doing.
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#242370 - 23/11/2004 18:40
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Sigh, another religious discussion...  The answer depends totally on what applications you plan to run on the laptop. As much as I like the apple computers, there's certain things I just can't run on them which precludes me from using them. But if you research it and find that you can do everything you want on an apple, then I'd say go for it.
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#242372 - 23/11/2004 18:57
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: andym]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
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If I had to make that decision again I would go for the Mac. I have a Toshiba Tecra Centrino laptop (in fact I'm using it now as the HD has died in the desktop), while the battery life is very good, it's bigger that I would like and hasn't really lived upto the ideal I was sold. A mate of mine has a powerbook, it's the perfect solution for a laptop I think, I wouldn't have a mac desktop given but their laptops have to be up there with the best designed objects of all time IMHO  Cheers Cris.
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#242373 - 23/11/2004 18:59
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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I don't think there's much Microsoft specific stuff I need. I do a bit of coding in VC++ but that's a minor problem. As long as I can surf the net, read emails, watch a DVD, edit audio and video then I'm happy.
_________________________
Cheers,
Andy M
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#242374 - 23/11/2004 19:04
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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For a lot of people the software is the same (like me). So there's nothing religious about it. It's just a different vendor. I try not to even think about the OS. Though after using Mac OS X on a more personal level (as opposed to testing work) I'm finding mroe and more annoying things about Windows. And surprisingly many of the really annoying things about Mac OS X are getting addressed in software updates or can be worked around with third-party software.
My first concern about the iBook is the small screen size. It's also a bit heavy. I wouldn't recommend the 12" PowerBook though because of the NV graphics of course. The 9200 graphics in the iBook are a bit slouchy for 3D and will be very out-dated for when the new Panther OS comes out (ie. won't be able to use many of the new shader stuff in CoreImage). Also, the iBooks' external display is by default Mirror-Only. Not extended desktop like on the PB's. You used to be able to hack around this though if you need this functionality.
The 15" PowerBook is very nice but a lot more expensive.
I can wholeheartedly recommend any of the Apple notebooks over a large number of PC products (from Toshiba and HP for instance). Especially if you're after things like 6-pin firewire, bluetooth, 802.11g, etc.. If you want to upgrade memory, it might make more sense to do it from a third party (at least on the PB's this is true).
Some of the new Toshiba models look decent, but I don't know their specs. e-Machines also had some snappy units that looked and felt a lot better than offerings from the bigger companies like Dell and HP.
Really look at what software you'll be running to help figure this all out. Also, Virtual PC as well as MS Remote Desktop help to fill the gap when you absolutely need to run some Windows content and performance isn't the greatest concern.
[EDIT] I just saw Andy's latest reply. Get the iBook. Your usage pattern will be a nice match for an Apple notebook. Especially once you factor in being able to run the nice Apple software like iDVD and iMovie. They're a bit limited, but can easily get you by in a pinch. Then there's Motion (which really likes more graphics horsepower and a crap-load of RAM) and Final Cut (Express or Pro), not to mention DVD Studio Pro. They simply have no comparable equivalents for Windows. For the generic stuff like the Web I now run Firefox and I'll be switching mail on my Windows machine over to Thunderbird so I can use the same client and files on the Mac. For MP3 tag editing I run my Windows box as a Remote Desktop in a window on my PowerBook.
Bruno
Edited by hybrid8 (23/11/2004 19:10)
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#242375 - 23/11/2004 19:19
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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Quote:
I don't think there's much Microsoft specific stuff I need. I do a bit of coding in VC++ but that's a minor problem. As long as I can surf the net, read emails, watch a DVD, edit audio and video then I'm happy.
I use a Mac at home and a PC at work. Most things just work without much trouble. Firefox is Firefox and emacs is emacs, after all. If you like lots of Unix tools (I spend an awful lot of time dealing with LaTeX), then a Mac is much better than cygwin on a PC. Of course, if you want to run Linux or do some kind of VMware solution, then you get parity on Unix features (although the single-button mouse can make it tricky to deal with X apps that want to use three buttons).
For audio and video editing, there are some amazing tools on the Mac that don't have PC equivalents. This could well be a deciding factor in favor of the Mac. On the flip side, if you're into games, then the PC may blow a Mac out of the water.
If you really intend the computer to be portable, then the decision gets tougher. The 12" PowerBook is a furnace. Plus, Apple hasn't seen fit to sell a sub-three pound notebook, while all of their PC competition sell numerous varieties on the theme. This baffles me, because the difference is quite significant if you do a lot of travelling. On the flip side, if you're not planning to lug it around, the 15" Powerbook seems like the sweet spot in Apple's product line. Big screen, nice keyboard, etc.
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#242376 - 23/11/2004 19:20
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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Mmmm, the Mac is looking better by the second. Just have to get the insurance money sorted first.
_________________________
Cheers,
Andy M
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#242377 - 23/11/2004 19:23
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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Too bad normal laptops and desktops won't drive the new 30" Apple LCD, though. I saw one for the first time last week. It's a jaw-dropping beautiful experience. I just can't see any way to justify the expense, but ... wow.
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#242378 - 23/11/2004 19:27
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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I don't know wether they were 30inch, but at Selfridges in Manchester they had a G5 running 2 displays, THAT was awesome. So much desktop, it would take me days to fill that shortcuts...
_________________________
Cheers,
Andy M
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#242379 - 23/11/2004 19:52
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: andym]
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addict
Registered: 13/07/2002
Posts: 634
Loc: Jesusland
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OK, I'll chime in with my new Fujitsu S6210 that I got at Fry's for $1,749.00 a couple of months ago; the centrino processer is very impressive as compared to the PIV and the screen is awesome. ... definately a religious discussion though.
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#242380 - 23/11/2004 19:55
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Hm. If you don't game on your laptop, then I think a Mac is a no-brainer.
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#242381 - 23/11/2004 21:51
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: Daria]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
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Just wanted to vouch for my 15" Powerbook. This is the best computer I've ever bought though it was damn pricey. It was like the empeg. I was leary at first but now know it was worth every penny. The old "it just works" adage is very true with OSX. It still surprises me all the time with things that you'd expect an OS to do, but have learned to not expect them by using windows. Little things like that battery swap mentioned above, it's wireless networking slickness, bluetooth slickness... all kinds of slick. I've been using Virtual PC lately for any PC only apps I need (like Garmin Mapsource) and it works flawlessly and surprisingly fast.
Only downer is that with the lates OS upgrade, half of my RAM suddenly disappeared. I can't find any info on it except on Macfixit which is a pay site. I'll be calling Apple as soon as I get home. According to the few posts I have found about it, they swap the logic board and you're good as new.
Edited by loren (23/11/2004 21:52)
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#242382 - 23/11/2004 21:56
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: loren]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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Quote:
According to the few posts I have found about it, they swap the logic board and you're good as new.
So you're saying that an OS upgrade has wiped out a memory bank, and a new motherboard is required to fix it? Sounds rather sketchy to me.
Matthew
(Who's waiting patiently for new powerbooks. ok, not very patiently)
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#242383 - 23/11/2004 22:33
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: matthew_k]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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Everything about the Mac is sketchy. But it just works. Unless it doesn't. Then it's broken. 
I agree with Loren, the slickness of the simple and small things make it really shine. Or rather it's the contrived and unimaginable way some of these things are handled in Windows that makes them mind-boggling.
All PowerBooks (including the 15") get piping hot when they're running plugged with their power connnector. Loren, can you also confirm this with yours?
Loren: You might want to send a note to Mike over at XLR8yourMac.com to see if he'll post your problem to his board. That will get other comments up over night and you'll likely do service to others if it hasn't already been mentioned.
Correction to my first post: I meant to write new TIGER OS (10.4), not Panther (10.3 which is already out).
Bruno
Edited by hybrid8 (24/11/2004 22:28)
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#242384 - 24/11/2004 04:35
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
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Re: the head issue. YES. It gets too hot to touch if you are doing disk or processor intensive tasks, especially while plugged in. I can't keep it on my legs for long once the fan kicks on, it's just too damn hot. It's definitely not a deal breaker, since every laptop I've used lately has the same issue. It's the nature of the beast it seems.
I'll deal with the RAM thing when i get home... too much going on at the moment. Thanks for the tip though!
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#242385 - 24/11/2004 05:35
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: loren]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
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Quote:
YES. It gets too hot to touch if you are doing disk or processor intensive tasks, especially while plugged in.
If everything you need done can be done in the Mac world and heat or price isn't a problem go Mac.
Heat was a deal breaker for me. I like to kick back in the lazy-boy with my laptop. The last couple of machines I've had were burners. (wallstreet and KDS pos) I would have liked to buy Apple. As mentioned earlier, "They just work!"
Working temp ins't listed in any spec or review I've ever seen. I finally realized that heat output corralates with watts consumed. The power supply of my current machine is rated at 45 watts. Plugged in running full blast, it only gets warm. Plugged in idling like now, it's only slightly warm. I love that.
FWIW: World Wind seems to be good software to heat stress a laptop.
I really wonder about apple's heat output. I have a Wallstreet at both home and at work. Identical machines. The work machine dosen't get hot. Not like the home machine. I've always suspected that the home machine has some kind of short working through the emi coatings.
_________________________
Glenn
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#242386 - 24/11/2004 06:38
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
I'm finding mroe and more annoying things about Windows.
While I really saw some of the annoying issues pop out when I did my PC to Mac switch, even more appeared now that I have a PC "laptop" again. Thankfully it will never really be used as a laptop, since I have the Powerbook, but things I notice all the time:
1. Screen brightness. My Powerbook sets the brightness based on the ambient light. The PC, well, has two settings, bright or dim when it gets unplugged. Didn't notice how much I like this feature till I was without it on another system. My CRTs at work have light sensors to do the same thing.
2. Battery life reporting. On an Apple machine, the battery goes from 100 to 0%, then the machine goes to sleep. Sleep will probably last 12 hours at most, with that time shortened with more memory. If it falls asleep, simply pull the battery and put the new one in. PC, starts panicking at 20% and will never hit 0% and properly sleep. I remember my old Armada, and the constant tweaks I had to do in the power settings to get it to hibernate in time before the battery dropped completly dead. Off by a bit, and work loss occured. I also did not dare to put it to sleep, and the idea of it recovering from sleep in a matter of seconds like the Powerbook is a joke.
3. Slot load drive. I despise tray load drives on a laptop now, they just feel so fragile. Slot load gets around that issue.
4. Little touches, like the power adaptor coming with a built in cable wrap, and easy to swap out international plugs. They even went to the trouble of ordering the ports on the side of the system based on size. Not overly useful over another port layout, but shows attention to detail.
5. LEDs. Do you really need a power led, a hard drive led, a solid blue led for bluetooth and a charging led? Not really. The only useful one is the charging led, and the Powerbook puts that on the plug instead of on the system.
6. Slim form factor. The Powerbook is a decent machine, including the 17 inch version. But for some reason, Apple seems to be the only company capable of building a powerful 17 inch laptop that isn't overly thick. Also, the system is smooth all around. It just slides into a laptop bag, and doesn't have feet to catch on things, or miscellaneous doors and vents.
Those types of little things in the hardware are why I don't get held back by a one button mouse. The system makes up for it in many other ways. Software wise, it is the same way. When I sat down and thought about how I used my machines, it became very clear that every task could be accomplished just fine on the Powerbook except one. That one would be gaming. So I made the decision to seperate productivity from gaming, and now maintain the Wintendo for games. Being that it only serves one puropse, it actually does really well. And the Powerbook still lets me play World of Warcraft on the go if needed, without hauling around the new Dell Inspiron portable brick, err, 9100. And time wise? I spend more time doing things, and less time trying to figure out how to do things or how to fix something. It's also why I moved my grandparents to a Mac as well. They can now just get things done, like plugging in the camera and having photos be transferred off of it.
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#242387 - 24/11/2004 09:11
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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One problem with Apple laptops is they don't make diddy ones. If Apple made a 10in-screen Ibook or Powerbook I'd have got that rather than buying Hugo's hand-me-down Vaio. As it is I'm pretending it's a Macintosh by running Windows XP on it.
Peter
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#242388 - 24/11/2004 17:52
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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_________________________
Cheers,
Andy M
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#242390 - 24/11/2004 18:43
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Welcome to the bright side.
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#242391 - 24/11/2004 21:23
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
Battery life reporting. On an Apple machine, the battery goes from 100 to 0%, then the machine goes to sleep. Sleep will probably last 12 hours at most, with that time shortened with more memory. If it falls asleep, simply pull the battery and put the new one in. PC, starts panicking at 20% and will never hit 0% and properly sleep. I remember my old Armada, and the constant tweaks I had to do in the power settings to get it to hibernate in time before the battery dropped completly dead. Off by a bit, and work loss occured. I also did not dare to put it to sleep, and the idea of it recovering from sleep in a matter of seconds like the Powerbook is a joke.
My Dell laptop behaves pretty much the same as the Apple in that respect then. Also, when the battery gets really low it will hibernate to disk before turning off completely. I have never lost any data despite running the battery right down many, many times. Not all PC laptops are created equal...
Also WinXP makes a big difference with regard to quick return from sleep and power management. Anyone using Win2k or a laptop instead of WinXP is missing out.
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#242392 - 24/11/2004 21:27
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Well, I've got the Mac. It is a Dual G5 2.5GHz, 512Mb with a 20 inch screen.
The hardware is work of art. Probably the most desirable kit of hardware I have ever used.
I haven't used MacOS since 7.5, so I need to find my way around MacOS X. It still appears to have some of the annoying quirks of the old MacOS, the most irritating being the lack of comprehensive keyboard control in dialog boxes.
Edit: Ok, I found the option that enables better keyboard navigation in dialogs
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#242393 - 25/11/2004 09:16
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
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Quote:
Not all PC laptops are created equal...
Yeah, my Sony SRX87 has pretty good battery management. It quite happily warns me in plenty of time, and hibernates (or goes into standby, as configured) as it should.
Also, with Windows XP, it comes up extremely quickly.
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-- roger
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#242394 - 25/11/2004 10:29
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: andy]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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My work Dell (D600) was brilliant under Win2k - really fast hibernate and re-awakening (11 seconds to boot!) but under XP it really sucks. Hibernate does not work at all, so I have to use standby - which has never failed to lose work if I have any apps open! It also fails to cope with USB devices or networks being changed while in Standby under XP. It was fine with all these under WIn2k. Luckily, except for connecting to the corporate LAN, I can run it in Linux for all other occasions and it runs beautifully. It is a good machine. I quite like MAC OS X, but still feel it has some way to go and it misses out on a lot of the things I would use regularly, so in my opinion a good PC laptop with Linux will always beat an Apple machine (but from your needs I think Apple is the way to go for you) Hmmm - turned into a bit of a blether...can you tell I'm really hacked off at XP. Soooo blimming sucky!!! Why would anyone write an OS like this? Aaaaarrkkkk! 
_________________________
Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#242395 - 25/11/2004 10:47
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: andym]
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addict
Registered: 24/07/2002
Posts: 618
Loc: South London
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Quote:
I don't know wether they were 30inch, but at Selfridges in Manchester they had a G5 running 2 displays, THAT was awesome. So much desktop, it would take me days to fill that shortcuts...
hey, that's my trick! I get abuse at work because it doesn't take me too long to fill my dual 1600x1200 monitors to the brim with shortcuts and files.....eventually you have to tidy up because you can't find anything at all!
I've got a desktop G4 which is ok, OS X is very nice but it's still pretty sluggish (although stuff like the user switching and expose in tiger are mouth watering!), but that's possible because mines a 733 without the extra cache.
For everyday stuff it rules, I use my PC a lot, but like you it's pretty much only for VC, can't really think of any applications on the PC that I really *need* to run that don't have a counterpart on the mac.
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#242396 - 25/11/2004 11:20
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: frog51]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Interesting - the only problem I have with hybernating on my Compaq Evo N1020v (under XP) is that it refuses to wake up if I have close to all virtual memory used (I have half a gig of physical mem and currently about 1,2G of swap file), which happens extremely rarely. I hardly shut it down at all, just hybernate. Batery meter is reasonably accurate (but the batery itself is nothing to write home about). On my old Thinkpad it had more or less 4 positions: 100%, 80%, 10%, 0%...
But when will Microsoft manage to make an actually multitasking operating system? When I load a database, or run a Paint Shop Pro batch, or doing anything else that is both CPU and disk intensive, it takes about 20 seconds to do something as trivial as minimize a window!
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#242397 - 25/11/2004 14:59
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: frog51]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
My work Dell (D600) was brilliant under Win2k - really fast hibernate and re-awakening (11 seconds to boot!) but under XP it really sucks. Hibernate does not work at all, so I have to use standby - which has never failed to lose work if I have any apps open! It also fails to cope with USB devices or networks being changed while in Standby under XP. It was fine with all these under WIn2k.
Well that is fairly bizarre. Guess what laptop I own that works so well using WinXP ?
Yes, a Dell D600...
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#242398 - 25/11/2004 15:02
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: sn00p]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
I've got a desktop G4 which is ok, OS X is very nice but it's still pretty sluggish (although stuff like the user switching and expose in tiger are mouth watering!), but that's possible because mines a 733 without the extra cache.
The Mac evangelist I met with the other day was saying that some older Mac will actually be faster with Tiger than with older OS X versions. Something to do with moving more of the UI rendering into the graphics card GPU.
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#242399 - 25/11/2004 16:05
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
My Dell laptop behaves pretty much the same as the Apple in that respect then.
On my Dell inspiron 9100 here, I still see manual controls in the Power Managment area to warn me at 20%, and standby at 10%. To me, that percentage should be usable battery life, not total. Much like newer cars hit E when you should find a gas station, not when your car comes to a halt.
Sleep, I just tried it, and it took 6 seconds to enter it, and about 8 to come back out. It's funny, because the power light pulses now, much like my Powerbook does when asleep. While this seems better then 2000, it's still not the nearly instant wakeup the Apple systems have. Also, I can't find a way to allow a bluetooth device to wake the system, so if it goes to sleep when running in clamshell mode, I have to open the lid and hit the power button, then quickly close it again before Windows sees two displays and reconfigures my desktop. Odd, since the blue bluetooth light stays on when it is asleep.
It's better, but the minor differences still exist to put the Apple systems on top for how they deal with power managment. I do sometimes wish OS X had a hibernate feature though.
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#242400 - 25/11/2004 16:44
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: andy]
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addict
Registered: 24/07/2002
Posts: 618
Loc: South London
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Quote:
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I've got a desktop G4 which is ok, OS X is very nice but it's still pretty sluggish (although stuff like the user switching and expose in tiger are mouth watering!), but that's possible because mines a 733 without the extra cache.
The Mac evangelist I met with the other day was saying that some older Mac will actually be faster with Tiger than with older OS X versions. Something to do with moving more of the UI rendering into the graphics card GPU.
Whoops, I mean't to say panther instead of tiger. Ooh, another speedup in the offing then, there was a marked improvement from the version prior to panther (can't remember which cat it was now!)....
Now, if only apple weren't so interested in overpriced hardware, Microsoft might get some proper competition.......
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#242401 - 25/11/2004 17:58
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: sn00p]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Quote:
Quote:
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I've got a desktop G4 which is ok, OS X is very nice but it's still pretty sluggish (although stuff like the user switching and expose in tiger are mouth watering!), but that's possible because mines a 733 without the extra cache.
The Mac evangelist I met with the other day was saying that some older Mac will actually be faster with Tiger than with older OS X versions. Something to do with moving more of the UI rendering into the graphics card GPU.
Whoops, I mean't to say panther instead of tiger. Ooh, another speedup in the offing then, there was a marked improvement from the version prior to panther (can't remember which cat it was now!)....
Now, if only apple weren't so interested in overpriced hardware, Microsoft might get some proper competition.......
The 12" iBook isn't that bad in terms of pricing. High, but not outrageous.
Also, "meant"; mean't would be "mean not", I guess, which makes no sense.
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#242402 - 25/11/2004 19:21
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: Daria]
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addict
Registered: 24/07/2002
Posts: 618
Loc: South London
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Quote:
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speedup in the offing then, there was a marked improvement from the version prior to panther (can't remember which cat it was now!)....
Now, if only apple weren't so interested in overpriced hardware, Microsoft might get some proper competition.......
The 12" iBook isn't that bad in terms of pricing. High, but not outrageous.
Also, "meant"; mean't would be "mean not", I guess, which makes no sense.
Sure, my mac wasn't *that* expensive, but the only "upgrade" in hardware performance is buying newer mac. With my PC I just plug in a new processor or swap out the motherboard & processor, which happens to be a very cheap solution.
Comparing a PC laptop to a mac laptop considerably lowers the price/performance/value for money argument, because they're pretty much sold as is, i.e no upgrades. As far as desktop machines go, I stand by my original point, they're overpriced.
Probably the biggest performance advance apple could make would be releasing the (rumoured to be in existance) port of OS X for intel, but then they don't get to keep selling you the same thing over and over again (hardware).
You're right too, "mean not" doesn't make sense! I meant meant. 
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#242403 - 25/11/2004 19:29
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: sn00p]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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As a consumer I want to save as much money as possible. As someone running a company, I'd rather be selling machines at the prices Apple does. (And doing the volumes that Dell does. ) Bruno
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#242404 - 25/11/2004 20:01
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: sn00p]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Now, if only apple weren't so interested in overpriced hardware,
Microsoft might get some proper competition.......
Tell me about it, I just checked out the price of this monitor/machine they have lent me. It is £3200 !!!
As per usual that includes the normal US-UK mark-up applies, as it is only $4300 on the US Apple store.
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#242405 - 25/11/2004 20:02
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Well, I'd rather people just handed me money, but it ain't gonna happen.
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#242406 - 25/11/2004 20:28
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: sn00p]
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/03/2003
Posts: 269
Loc: Wellingborough, UK
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Quote:
Now, if only apple weren't so interested in overpriced hardware, Microsoft might get some proper competition.......
I don't think it is overpriced. It is expensive, however. The price reflects the cost of design (including robustness and ease of use).
A few years ago, Sun Microsystems kit was rock solid (both from software and hardware points of view) and very efficient, but rather expensive. Then they had a big push to get new models out of the door that were much more competitive with prices from (principally) Dell. They incorporated PCI expansion and selected drives and memory from a larger number of suppliers to encourage competition for business. Their low-end workstations and servers now use cases that are basically PC cases. They also changed the way the CPU modules were manufactured and and assembled.
Perhaps unsurprisingly in hindsight, they saw an increase in disk and memory problems and a very nasty problem with certain CPU modules. They have recovered from the problems and their processes are probably better for it.
The result is a low-end range that is better able to compete with the likes of Dell but with a quality and reliability that is closer to Dell kit, too. From a financial point of view, it makes sense: reduce quality, reduce costs and sell more kit. But this misses the point that the brand has been weakened - there is now less value to choosing Sun over any other brand at the low-end.
It is a similar story with HP - once the brand stood for premium product, not they are just another box shifter.
Personally, I'd like to see Apple stay with its high innovation, strong design and reassuringly expensive prices.
Edited by mdavey (25/11/2004 20:29)
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#242407 - 25/11/2004 20:46
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: mdavey]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
A few years ago, Sun Microsystems kit was rock solid (both from software and hardware points of view) and very efficient, but rather expensive.
Not literally Sun-made kit, but I happened across this today. Not exactly ultra-compact but still an amazing-looking thing, and certainly the only laptop on this thread so far that has a full-size 64/66 PCI slot...
Peter
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#242408 - 25/11/2004 21:40
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: mdavey]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
The result is a low-end range that is better able to compete with the likes of Dell but with a quality and reliability that is closer to Dell kit, too.
I have found Dell kit to be pretty consistently reliable. I own four Dell machines now, including three machine that are over 6 years old. They have all worked very nearly faultlessly, three of them have been on 24/7 for the last 5 years. Two of them live in a less than idea environment, a cold, dusty and sometimes damp garage.
I am trying to think of any hardware problems I have had with them. I think the only problem has been one disk drive that started behaving oddly a couple of years ago (it spins down randomly, causing a pause while it spins up again).
Only one of these three 24/7 machine is a "proper" server, the others are cheap secondhand desktop machines.
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#242409 - 26/11/2004 04:27
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: sn00p]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
With my PC I just plug in a new processor or swap out the motherboard & processor, which happens to be a very cheap solution.
This is also possible on most Apple desktop machines, and has been for ages. My G4 Cube for example came with a 450mhz processor, and can be upgraded to a 1.4ghz G4 by replacing the processor card (CPU and L3 cache). Several companies release PowerPC upgrade kits, and some even go between generations. G3 Powerbooks can be upgraded to G4 processors.
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#242410 - 26/11/2004 07:19
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: drakino]
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veteran
Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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Quote:
This is also possible on most Apple desktop machines, and has been for ages. My G4 Cube for example came with a 450mhz processor, and can be upgraded to a 1.4ghz G4 by replacing the processor card (CPU and L3 cache).
Ahh, another Cube owner! Nice machine, too bad it got discontinued so quickly. Any pointers to people providing upgrades?
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#242411 - 26/11/2004 07:24
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: drakino]
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addict
Registered: 24/07/2002
Posts: 618
Loc: South London
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Quote:
Quote:
With my PC I just plug in a new processor or swap out the motherboard & processor, which happens to be a very cheap solution.
This is also possible on most Apple desktop machines, and has been for ages. My G4 Cube for example came with a 450mhz processor, and can be upgraded to a 1.4ghz G4 by replacing the processor card (CPU and L3 cache). Several companies release PowerPC upgrade kits, and some even go between generations. G3 Powerbooks can be upgraded to G4 processors.
Yes, but again it's still very expensive compared to the price of upgrading PC hardware. Apple never intended them to be upgraded, hence third party upgrade kits. For that matter, anybody remember the OEM macintoshes that apple quickly killed off when the realised that everybody was buying cheaper mac compatible hardware, rather than their own?
And with regards to the cube, any upgrade in processor would be a blessing, those things were pooooooor......(but silent)
OS X on a PowerPC or OS X on an intel is an absolute no brainer for me.....I'm sure there must be some little voice ratlling around in job's head saying, one day Gate's, I'll have my revenge!
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#242412 - 26/11/2004 17:02
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: sn00p]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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The conspiracy theorist in me still thinks that that's the exact reason Microsoft invested so much money into Apple a while back. It could have been a payoff for not porting MacOS X to Intel. On the other hand, Apple did decide they made a mistake in licensing Apple hardware to other vendors, so why would they want to change to a model just as bad except where they're getting no hardware licensing fees at all?
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#242413 - 26/11/2004 17:05
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: sn00p]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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99% of current PC's aren't "worth" upgrading. The only thing you may keep are drives and the case. Drives and a case aren't a computer. So you're in the same boat as with a Mac.
Bruno
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#242414 - 26/11/2004 17:07
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: sn00p]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Quote:
one day Gate's, I'll have my revenge!
Your apostrophe license has been revoked. Please remove the apostrophe key, and email it to me using RFC 1437 encoding.
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#242415 - 26/11/2004 17:29
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: Daria]
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/03/2003
Posts: 269
Loc: Wellingborough, UK
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Brilliant! Absolutely brilliant! Very, very glad that I don't have any consumable liquid anywhere near me right now.
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#242416 - 26/11/2004 17:36
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: sn00p]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
anybody remember the OEM macintoshes that apple quickly killed off when the realised that everybody was buying cheaper mac compatible hardware, rather than their own?
That was a decision made by Jobs when he came back, one of many that saved Apple. They did so to retain control of the platform and to try and elliminate consumer confusion. Back then, Apple looked like any other beige box shipper, with a ton of models and no easy way to know what did what. All the OEM builders were doing the same, leading to more confusion. Jobs goal was to simply the product like to consumer laptop, consumer desktop, professional laptop and professional desktop. The first step was the iMac, and had he not done that, the company would not be around to do the next steps.
OS X for Intel, thats another sticky issue. Looking back at Apples sales numbers for 2002 (before the iPod craze), Apple would have to hit a 25% market share in the first year on OS X to make the same amount of profit they did for selling computers to a 2.4% market share. Thats assuming $50 of profit per OS X license, something not likely to happen if they go the Microsoft route and license it to OEMs. Source.
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#242417 - 26/11/2004 23:10
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: peter]
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addict
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 510
Loc: NY
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One problem with Apple laptops is they don't make diddy ones. If Apple made a 10in-screen Ibook or Powerbook I'd have got that rather than buying Hugo's hand-me-down Vaio. As it is I'm pretending it's a Macintosh by running Windows XP on it.
I just got one of the vaio t series laptops earlier this week. Battery lasts for 5 hours, it doesn't get hot, and it fits in my purse. Damn I love this little thing. Let's see how long this one lasts before I break the power supply.
_________________________
Heather
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -Susan B Anthony
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#242418 - 27/11/2004 00:31
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: Heather]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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I just got one of the vaio t series laptops earlier this week. Battery lasts for 5 hours, it doesn't get hot, and it fits in my purse. Damn I love this little thing.
I also got one recently - it's very sweet, and for some reason I haven't fathomed has a DVD burner on board. I guess if someone on the plane likes the DVD I'm watching, I can burn them a copy!
Rob
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#242419 - 27/11/2004 17:32
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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I went to Selfridges in Manchester today to have a good look at one in the flesh. I'm really torn between the 12inch and the 14inch. A kind soul on the board can get me a discount on the iBooks which would make the 14inch not much more expensive than I was willing to splash on the 12inch originally. Would it be worth the extra expense? The bigger screen would be nice but the extra 130mhz on the cpu make that much of a difference?
With the discount I could get the 12inch laptop and a spare battery for the original RRP, although I'm definately getting the bluetooth option installed.
I just wish the insurance company would pull their fingers out....
_________________________
Cheers,
Andy M
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#242420 - 27/11/2004 17:49
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: julf]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
Ahh, another Cube owner! Nice machine, too bad it got discontinued so quickly. Any pointers to people providing upgrades?
Cubeowner is a great resource to find exactly what can be upgraded. One of the CPU upgrade companies even made a new 10 inch enclosure to support more modern video cards and other heat producing parts.
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#242421 - 28/11/2004 06:25
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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The bigger screen would be nice
I suspect that you don't realize just how much bigger the larger screen is.
Two inches -- big deal, right?
Well, that actually works out to be 36% more screen real estate, because the size of the screen (square inches of screen area) is proportional to the square of the diagonal measurement.
So it isn't 14 divided by 12 = 16% increase, but 196 divided by 144 = 36%.
That is a sizable improvement in utility.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#242422 - 28/11/2004 07:54
Re: New laptop..... iBook or PC?
[Re: drakino]
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veteran
Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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Cubeowner is a great resource to find exactly what can be upgraded.
Great! Thanks!
Quote:
One of the CPU upgrade companies even made a new 10 inch enclosure to support more modern video cards and other heat producing parts.
But doesn't that defeat much of the point of the cube form factor and quietish design?
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