Unoffical empeg BBS

Quick Links: Empeg FAQ | RioCar.Org | Hijack | BigDisk Builder | jEmplode | emphatic
Repairs: Repairs

Page 2 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >
Topic Options
#244962 - 31/12/2004 15:03 Re: Money [Re: altman]
schofiel
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
What do you think of this proposal?
_________________________
One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

Top
#244963 - 31/12/2004 16:12 Re: Money [Re: schofiel]
SE_Sport_Driver
carpal tunnel

Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
Rob, can we pay you in beer?

I really like this idea that you're proposing. I guess a lot of us assumed that tweaking existing code wouldn't take 6 months, but that's only because we (or "I" have no experiene in this). Your solution sounds great and I hope that it can be worked out.
_________________________
Brad B.

Top
#244964 - 31/12/2004 18:40 Re: Money [Re: schofiel]
altman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
It's definitely an idea, though the empeg codebase is about to have a whole heap of stuff done to it in the general course of development - which will result in a lot of issues being fixed, for starters - and there's the issue of what point the code is branched to be worked on. Not insoluble, obviously, but an issue nonetheless.

Also, support: I would expect you'd need the ear (and/or time) of some developers in order to understand the way the code works - there's probably coming up for 500,000+ lines of code in the player & libs nowadays (though somebody like Peter could tell me I'm including stuff that I shouldn't be, I'm sure) and that's a lot for one person to swallow without any help. There's no one expert in the team now who understand the in's and out's of every part of the player, for example.

I'll be seeing our VP of engineering at CES, I'll ask him what he thinks. It is possible he won't go for it at all though, as this code is not some dark dank corner of the codebase but very much what Rio's future is based on. Risk does come into it.

Hugo

Top
#244965 - 31/12/2004 18:47 Re: Money [Re: bonzi]
altman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
Quote:
Quote:

Quote:
The car player is not a living, supported product any more, and to think otherwise or hope that secretly, somewhere, someone is working on it is pure fantasy.


But despite that, I assume there is no hope in hell of having the full source released..?


It would seem so, presumably because it has much (if not all) in common with portables (the future of which also seems cloudy to me)


No cloudiness in the future of Rio portables here, says the hardware designer (ie, me).

As I said in another email, there's a lot of work going on (and scheduled) on the empeg source tree. Whether this will translate into future carplayer releases does depend on the charity and enthusiasm of empeg employees to do the necessary work to knock carplayer builds into shape - but the fact that the codebase is very much current and gaining lots of very cool features should not be doubted.

Hugo

Top
#244966 - 31/12/2004 18:51 Re: Money [Re: altman]
pgrzelak
carpal tunnel

Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
Well, I am willing to bribe, uh, well, "financially inspire", anyone doing the work. Perhaps you and Rob could create a PayPal account dedicated to receiving such "inspiration".
_________________________
Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs

Top
#244967 - 31/12/2004 19:01 Re: Money [Re: pgrzelak]
altman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
Quote:
I know that it has really been the folks @ empeg (current and former) that have been pushing this. Given that people have been moving on and away from Rio, I suspect that the management (term used in a very sarcastic manner) have lost site of the value of their own customer base and user community. Sad.


I don't think there's been any such "move away"; it's true that Rob did sell upper management on using the empeg-car alpha group as a great testbed for some of the early audio path testing, but there's never been explicit authorisation for people to work on carplayer code in work hours - the fact that the carplayer and current/future Rio products use the same code does mean that regular builds pop out of autobuilders which compile and link for the carplayer. Just because Rob isn't at empeg anymore doesn't mean this stops happening, or people stop caring about the carplayer.

The challenge is always to take one of these and do the necessary fixes in order to result in a player that's actually *usable* - in the process of adding some feature not applicable to the carplayer, a carplayer feature can get broken. There's also the issue of UI - the carplayer UI is seriously creaking under the weight of Karma features which aren't accessible in an obvious manner, and really needs to be ripped up & redone. Some of this may become easier from further abstraction and tidying of the code, but it could well result in no carplayer builds working at all until somebody rewrites the UI from scratch, for example.

Several empeg guys, including notably Peter and JohnG, have most recently put in stirling work on v3 and helped immensely with getting it usable, but it is very much a labour of love.

The way to really get something state of the art is to have a new car product, which isn't a stupid an idea as it might seem. By my calculations....

Hugo

Top
#244968 - 31/12/2004 19:09 Re: Money [Re: altman]
pgrzelak
carpal tunnel

Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
!!!

Now, if that last comment (not repeated in case it needs to be edited later on) is not a rather interesting and leading thought... I know that you cannot share those, uh, calculations. At least not publicly...

The perceived direction shift was based mostly on this thread. I know people have left DNNA for a variety of reasons over the past year, but I am pleased to hear that the interest and dedication are still there!
_________________________
Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs

Top
#244969 - 31/12/2004 20:43 Re: Money [Re: altman]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31563
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
Just because Rob isn't at empeg anymore doesn't mean this stops happening, or people stop caring about the carplayer.

Thanks for stating that directly, I'm sure it's something we were all a little bit worried about.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

Top
#244970 - 31/12/2004 22:31 Re: Money [Re: bonzi]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14472
Loc: Canada
Quote:
How much of the probem is the fact that hardware is also closed?



The schematic is closed to us, but we don't actually need it -- we now have access to extensive documentation on all of the important chips used.. more than enough. Just need a person with the right skills, interest, and some time here and now (not me, by the way.. far to busy right now).

EDIT: I just now read Hugo's recent posts, and the future of the Rio s/w base doesn't sound as bleak as perhaps this thread might have had it -- I'm very happy with the past/current efforts of the Build Brothers et al. So long as it continues from time to time!

Cheers!


Edited by mlord (31/12/2004 22:37)

Top
#244971 - 01/01/2005 01:22 Re: Money [Re: schofiel]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Quote:
The reason why I started this thread came from a number of different facts: [...]

Phew, this is how I understood your original post, but then you threw some cold water with your reply and confused me. OK, let me now read the rest of the thread

Update: I've read the rest. Phew again: things seem to be much better than they seem last year (that is, this morning). Regardless, if DNNA honchos decide that your idea is not too risky, I am still for chipping in in order to grease the things a bit.


Edited by bonzi (01/01/2005 01:36)
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Q#5196 MkII #080000376, 18GB green MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue

Top
#244972 - 01/01/2005 01:27 Re: Money [Re: altman]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Quote:

No cloudiness in the future of Rio portables here, says the hardware designer (ie, me).

As I said in another email, there's a lot of work going on (and scheduled) on the empeg source tree. Whether this will translate into future carplayer releases does depend on the charity and enthusiasm of empeg employees to do the necessary work to knock carplayer builds into shape - but the fact that the codebase is very much current and gaining lots of very cool features should not be doubted.

I am very glad to hear that, Hugo. My comment on cloudiness just reflects my frustration with seeing iPods absolutely everywhere, and Karma barely at all. But you know that, of course.

Cheers!
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Q#5196 MkII #080000376, 18GB green MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue

Top
#244973 - 01/01/2005 05:08 Re: Money [Re: schofiel]
SuperQ
addict

Registered: 13/06/2000
Posts: 429
Loc: Berlin, DE
I'm in for 50-100 USD
_________________________
80gig red mk2 -- 080000125
(No, I don't actually hate Alan Cox)

Top
#244974 - 01/01/2005 15:14 Re: Money [Re: pgrzelak]
bjoern
member

Registered: 03/04/2002
Posts: 169
Loc: Regensburg, Germany
I second the PayPal account suggestion. Let's try to fill that account up and then we can collectively arrive at a decision of what to do with the dough.
P.S.: For increased contributors' trust some 'public' monitoring of the account may be advisable.
_________________________
32MB, serial: 10101626

Top
#244975 - 01/01/2005 17:34 Re: Money [Re: SuperQ]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Seems like a familiar thread... I'm in for 100-250 USD or Euros, whichever is worth more when the time comes to pay.

Hugo - are you hinting that the Rio booth is a must-see at CES? It's already on my long list of course, but I have a lot of stuff to get through in 4 days. Anything being shown in a suite as well?

Bruno
_________________________
Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

Top
#244976 - 01/01/2005 18:01 Re: Money [Re: hybrid8]
Memil
member

Registered: 03/02/2002
Posts: 101
Loc: Sweden
I'm in for $50-100, but I could maybe think of a monthly payment of $## for a steady flow of motivation(beer? :-)).

/Fredrik

Top
#244977 - 01/01/2005 19:55 Re: Money [Re: altman]
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
Quote:
The way to really get something state of the art is to have a new car product, which isn't a stupid an idea as it might seem.

Damn. Caught out by planned obsolesence...again!
_________________________
Jim


'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

Top
#244978 - 01/01/2005 20:18 Re: Money [Re: jimhogan]
mcomb
pooh-bah

Registered: 31/08/1999
Posts: 1649
Loc: San Carlos, CA
Just another "me too". Although I am thrilled by Hugo's suggesting that something new may eventually emerge I don't mind throwing a few bucks ($50-$100) into the pot to make sure that some development on the player continues.

Given Hugo's comments that there may actually be something at the end of the tunnel, it does seem like Rob S should have an offline discussion with him to make sure he isn't wasting his time.

-Mike
_________________________
EmpMenuX - ext3 filesystem - Empeg iTunes integration

Top
#244979 - 01/01/2005 20:41 Re: Money [Re: altman]
FireFox31
pooh-bah

Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
Forgive my uneducated brainstorm, but what if we invested in making the empeg software more "hackable". Make a build with the core closed-source functionality (audio, FIDs, caching, etc) but leave the rest unimplemented with hooks so we could bolt on our open-source interfaces, modules, displays, functions, etc. So we wouldn't start from scratch with an open-source player; we'd pay for a solid foundation.

Like Hugo mentioned about the Karma features needing a new UI: let the paid insider work the current closed-source empeg code into a foundation and let us write the UI (and other components). This may work if we had access to the closed-source components which interface with the UI (perhaps just the functions, their paramaters, their return values, and a description of what they do; close-source their code).

I would be willing to contribute $100 to this effort, if the software developers among us think it's reasonable.

One thing to remember is, "hell hath no fury like an empeg user scorned." Meaning: empeg users hate to pay for stuff and get nothing in return. I'm not doubting RobS in the least, but if people put money down, we need a system to be sure that they get what they paid for to avoid any potential problems.

Quote:
My comment on cloudiness just reflects my frustration with seeing iPods absolutely everywhere, and Karma barely at all.

Agreed, saddly. iPods even snuck into the LotR:TTT-EE Appendix 3 DVD. And I couldn't sell my friend on a Karma because he wanted the simplicity and supposed unshaking reliability of an iPod. Thankfully, we still have our empegs!
_________________________
-
FireFox31
110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set

Top
#244980 - 01/01/2005 23:35 Re: Money [Re: FireFox31]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
I think Firefox pretty much just posted exactly what I had intended to. If there is going to be a push for paid development on the empeg code, I'd like to see it driven to a point where the core playback engine has a lot of features like the crossfading in 3.0, and have some type of 3rd party hook. Hijack and the efforts from people like Tony C are pretty cool, but definitly suffer from lack of such a hook. For me, 2.0 does just fine for daily needs and 3.0 really doesn't add enough for me to justify spending a ton of money on it. However, if that money went to ensuring I could have scrolling lyrics, receiver compatibility, and possibly other unthought features in a non roundabout way, I'd be willing to pay possibly close to what I got my firesale 60gb unit for.

Regarding the iPod issue, Rio beter have something really big up their sleeves to think they can continue to compete in that market. They need to show that:

1. The product is alive. I don't think I have seen a Karma on a store shelf in months now. I've also only seen one release, the 20gb player. In that time, Apple has released the 3rd gen, 4th gen, and iPod Photo units, keeping fresh stock out there for consumers to see. Before the Karma, Rio had the completly different Riot.

2. They can market it. Thanks to the (also dying) ReplayTV I own from DNNA, I don't see many commercials. But I'm certain there really has never been a Karma commercial. iPod, I know for sure gets advertised quite a bit. Maybe a brand name change would help this.

3. Support from 3rd parties. This one will be tough, since not too many iPod accessories appeared until after it was proven to be very popular.

One thing I would love to see is a revival of most of the dead Rio products and them marketed togther. Bring back the Central for music storage, receivers for cheep streaming around the house off it, then add in a portable product that easially and quickly works with the Central or a computer. Even better, work with ReplayTV and have an uber unit that does video as well, and add video out to a receiver for bedroom show sharing cheep. Then, have a car solution for that portable player that proves how bad the iPod + BMW interface is. Rio has the possibility to bring digital music even to those unconfortable with the computer. They just need to do so in a seamless way, instead of changing plans every year. The flash market is probably not going to substain mass growth in the future, so Rio needs other things to survive.

edit: To be fair, the Carbon is a good start. It is decent competition for the iPod Mini. They just need to market it as such now.


Edited by drakino (01/01/2005 23:39)

Top
#244981 - 02/01/2005 10:36 Re: Money [Re: FireFox31]
SonicSnoop
addict

Registered: 29/06/2002
Posts: 531
Loc: Triangle, VA
I would really like to see something along FireFox's post happen. That way we wouldnt be so dependant on specific people to get stuff done, the commnuity could start developing differnt parts of the non closed software.
_________________________
-D Modifying and Tweaking is a journey, not a destination................................ MKIIa : 60gig - 040103286 - Blue - v2 + PCATS tuner MKIIa : 20gig - 040103260 - Blue - v3a8 + Mark Lord Special Edition Cherry Dock

Top
#244982 - 02/01/2005 12:33 Re: Money [Re: altman]
webroach
old hand

Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
Hugo, I only reply to your post because of the final comment, which I'll get to. My post applies to all comments in this thread up til this.

I'm going to be brutally honest. Looking at my sig shows what I am willing to pay for. Please nobody waste everyone's time discussing the difficulties of Japanese on the empeg; I think everyone is pretty clear on the difficulties. I'm simply stating, very clearly, what interests me development-wise, and that is being able to have my music not only correctly tagged on my home system, but on the empeg as well. And that is worth $350US. Minimum. Nuff said.

As for interest in additional financial contributions for development, I'm sorry, but I don't know that I'd be in. A few things would have to change.

First, the "circle-of-friends" thing would have to come to a dead stop. If I put down currency to help development, I wouldn't want to be told "well, you weren't at the meet, so ha ha ha. Just wait 6 months." Yes, I know it was to keep peoples decks from getting pooched. Yes, I know nobody was paying at the time. My point is that if I do pay, I want to get releases (alphas, too) as soon as anyone else. Period. I'm a big boy and can take responsibility for screwing up my player if it comes to that. But I won't pay to be made feel like I'm second tier because I can't afford to take time off of school and fly to Europe for fun.

Second, I honestly only have one thing other than crossfading that I want to work, and I've already discussed that. Unless what FireFox spoke about (and I've also mentioned from time to time) regarding locking down the closed source portions of the codebase and making everything more modular to allow the community to produce its own software. Beyond that, what would I be seeing for my money? I have no interest in the specialized receiver builds, etc. I simply want to sort MP3s, play MP3s, and view MP3 tags. I don't need FLAC or OGG support, etc. etc.

Having a way to design custom info display modes via an XML schema, in line with what FireFox said (ie. hooks)? That I would pay for. I know you can do it with emphatic, but the slowdown on my system is just too much (can't force myself to turn off visuals and burn-in )

I hope everyone understands, I'm not trying to be negative. I have more respect for the empeg guys, the Build Brothers and pretty much everyone in this community that I could ever say. I just can't justify:

a) paying a ton of money for features I really don't have a need or desire for, while not getting the features I want and need,

b) paying a ton of money for features to be implemented in the "Amersfoort Club" alpha release that I won't get to try for months. I'm not implying this would continue, just that it happened.

Especially with as much money as I have out on the fascia project. (Meeting later today, BTW, to determine just where we're at on that.)

As soon as the Japanese thing gets figured out (or released to us, as I remember someone discussing the appearance of a Japanese capable empeg at a meet), let me know. I'll throw the $350 and maybe more, because that is something that, for me, is a huge usability clusterfsck. HUGE. Till then, I'm going to need convincing that I'm going to get something out of my contribution.

Sorry if that sounds selfish and crappy.
_________________________
Dave

Top
#244983 - 02/01/2005 14:08 Re: Money [Re: webroach]
larry818
old hand

Registered: 01/10/2002
Posts: 1033
Loc: Fullerton, Calif.
Quote:
I'm going to be brutally honest. Looking at my sig shows what I am willing to pay for. Please nobody waste everyone's time discussing the difficulties of Japanese on the empeg; I think everyone is pretty clear on the difficulties. I'm simply stating, very clearly, what interests me development-wise, and that is being able to have my music not only correctly tagged on my home system, but on the empeg as well. And that is worth $350US. Minimum. Nuff said.


I would be willing to support this effort only if it were to press for a completely open source player.

I know that I've spent more time translating my chinese mp3s to english that I would have spent adding Big5 support to the player. Lately I've just given up and have lots of songs called "track 1".

There is also a feature/bug in the tuner code that I know would take me seconds to fix, but makes the tuner useless here in Southern California, and I have no access to fix it. It's irritating that I had to install a second head unit to fix a software problem.

I'm thinking that if there are closed portions to the semi-open player, what would be the next minor unfixable bug?

Now that being said, if there were closed modules with hooks, and an open source player finished, it would seem irresistable to create open source modules to go with the player.

I'm with Webroach, V2 works fine for me and it's unlikely that dbcs support would be added or the radio bug fixed, and I don't need all the other features being discussed. I would be willing to pay for a solution that allows me to change what I feel needs changing.

Thanks,

Larry

Top
#244984 - 02/01/2005 15:46 Re: Money [Re: FireFox31]
msaeger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
How about paying someone the money to create a new open source player. Mark has suggested several times that the nescessary info is available but he doesn't want to do it so maybe someone else here could be bribed.

I personally was happy with 2.0 but I haven't installed the player in my mini yet due to stupid propritary crap in the car.

Also I hope whatever Hugo is hinting at will be a good replacement
_________________________

Matt

Top
#244985 - 02/01/2005 19:40 Re: Money [Re: msaeger]
mcomb
pooh-bah

Registered: 31/08/1999
Posts: 1649
Loc: San Carlos, CA
Quote:
How about paying someone the money to create a new open source player.

I don't think we would be able to come up with enough money to get it done. Assuming we all feel really generous and can scrape together $20k that is still only two or three months of a good programmers time. The current player software has many man years of development put into it. Even the time Mark has put into hijack is small change compared to what it would take to rewrite the player from scratch and just get it to the current level of functionality.

The only way I could see a replacement player happening is to turn it into a community project with lots of us working on it in our spare time. But unfortunately every time someone has tried to get something like that started there seems to have been very little interest.

Paying someone like Rob S to rework the current code base into something more modular with published interfaces so individual components could be replaced with open source pieces over time might be a better path. But, that would still likely be a significant investment and when he was finished we would have something that was likely more buggy than what we started with. The benefits of modularizing everything wouldn't be evident until enough people here started enhancing or replacing individual components.

-Mike
_________________________
EmpMenuX - ext3 filesystem - Empeg iTunes integration

Top
#244986 - 02/01/2005 20:21 Re: Money [Re: webroach]
schofiel
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
I have to confess to being somewhat disappointed in your post. First off: I organise the Amersfoort events for fun, plain and simple. In order to make it sucessful, I have to make it attractive enough for people to want to attend. Don't forget, I am in competition with TV, football matches, F1 races, and, believe it or not, exams and even national holidays!

Thanks to the good graces of the empeg team, one of the pulling points so far has been new builds of software for the player. However - and bear this in mind - this is software produced in their own time, for an unsupported product. The last two "Top secret" releases done for the Amersfoort meets were not meant to be "secret" or "limited" or "just for the club" in any sense, other than to limit it's circulation to prevent a mass software failure stretching through the whole community (you will perhaps note that just about every member of this community has been able to get hold of this stuff given time, regardless of circulation restrictions placed upon it by Rob). This software can only be released as Alpha, never Beta (think about it, heh?) and the very fact that it has been released at all is a pretty good thing. It speaks well for the team that they think with enough responsibility to their former customer base that they are still trying to ensure that people's machines don't get hosed by some lurking nasty that they have insufficient time to test properly for. Read the label - it says quite clearly - "Use AT YOUR OWN RISK!".

I rather resent the imputation that you feel that the people who come here have formed a cliquey "club" just because they can afford the ticket price and the cost: that's not the case. You are also quite welcome to come as well. If you have problems with the date of the 2005 event (are you looking at the calender?) due to exams, then let me know NOW and I'll see if I can adjust it - I have done this for several people several times now to make sure that as many people as want to come, can come. Money a problem? Well, I can't help much with that I'm afraid - but I do try to make it fun for everyone who can't attend, even going so far as trying to arrange webcams at the event, and this year an attempt was made at videoing it for a limited "Best of..". For various reasons this hasn't happened - sorry.

I realise that at each event, there has been a fair amount of post-event ragging about these releases with an "We know something you don't know!" element to it. Perhaps this is a mistake - but it's only ragging, nothing else! There's nothing intentionally nasty about it!

To labour this point somewhat - when I made this current proposal, I was NOT proposing that partially-directed versions be released to a limited crowd who have paid to "join the club". This was the last thing on my mind. The proposal was going to be firmed up along the lines that the people who paid up front would be entitled to regular updates during development, intermediate test builds, so forth - to act as a kind of voluntary A-test team, much the way as I did with the original release test team. Then eventually, everyone - having paid or not - would benefit from a free, Beta upgrade. So why pay at all, then? Why not just sit back and wait for a new sausage to pop out of the pipe? Well, that's what's been happeniing so far (with diminishing frequency), in case you haven't noticed - and the people who have benefitted from this approach have been ...

...yup, you guessed it, the people who came to the Amersfoort meets. And yes, some of them DID pay - like Rob Riccardelli who paid a h*** of a lot in air fare to come over for what was, in the end, just a boozy party with a few hamburgers thrown in for good measure! Does that not sound like "paying" for a priviledged release? It was his choice to do so, nicht wahr?

I am also a little bothered that you have attached conditions to what you are prepared to contribute to. While I understand why you want what you want, you are - as other posters here are also doing - Completely Missing The Point. I am Not talking about, nor am I interested in doing, (in a limited time with limited funds) adding new functionality , only making what has been described as an unstable release into a Stable one, with a pre-selected list of fixes to certain bugs that will provide the maximum benefit to the entire user community. If you wish to be partial, and only contribute to directed development that benefits only yourself and no-one else (I don't see anyone else clamouring for Japanese ID3 support here - do you?), then I would prefer that you withdrew and did not offer funds as I will not be able to do what you ask - there won't be the opportunity. Sure, there are about a dozen new things I would like to build into the the player software but I will have neither the time, nor funds to do this.

I suspect saying it this way will upset you: I sincerely hope not, as I do not wish for this to happen - your posts and contributions on this board are enjoyable and I enjoy reading your thoughts. But as you say yourself - I have to be brutal about this: I will have very little time to do what I propose. I am not even sure I will be able to do enough: I will be taking a huge financial risk on your behalf and to be anything less than totally focussed on what is practically achievable is without any doubt in my mind, POINTLESS.

If you all want this to happen, then you have a very small window of opportunity to consider what you want, pool your funds, and make a concrete contribution, for which I promise you will be rewarded with my greatest efforts. But if it's not important enough for you - well, why should I commit to the risk?

_________________________
One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

Top
#244987 - 02/01/2005 20:31 Re: Money [Re: mcomb]
schofiel
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
Not a bad summary, but the idea of Modularity is just not achieveable due to practical aspects of how the player actually works in normal operation. The guys have looked at this (remember the big discussions about the "plug in decoder" architecture?) and it's just not on, otherwise they'd have done it! They are pretty smart cookies - if it's not been done so far, there's a good reason for it.

No, we are better off focussing in stability and correction of dysfunction. A final release version of V3 with all the minor playlist issues, caching, graphics, memory allocation, radio tuning and RDS to get a good meat-and-potato release of the quality of V2 Final, along with a revised disk builder seems to me to be the way to go. It is work based on established material, and has a better chance of success.

Why not an effort to work on the open source players that have been floating around for a while? Well, indeed - but why hasn't it been done by now? As much as I feel this is an alternative (Look at Mike's jEmplode), it has not happened. I am certain if I worked on material like this for 6 months, 40 hours a week, I could produce some excellent results. But I can't survive another 6 months without something to pay my mortgage and bills - I still would need funds. And why pay for an open source one when I could (potentially) work on the real thing?
_________________________
One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

Top
#244988 - 02/01/2005 21:06 Re: Money [Re: schofiel]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Quote:
(I don't see anyone else clamouring for Japanese ID3 support here - do you?)

There is at least one more 'clamourer' for Japanese support . I would like to see addition of Latin2, but I don't see it as something that benefits the community enough to warant the use of scarce resources for it.

Quote:
If you all want this to happen, then you have a very small window of opportunity to consider what you want, pool your funds, and make a concrete contribution, for which I promise you will be rewarded with my greatest efforts. But if it's not important enough for you - well, why should I commit to the risk?

Again, I didn't try 3A and consequently don't feel very strongly about particular bugs. Actual 3A users will have their priorities, and I am perfectly happy to trust their and in particular your judgment. But perhaps you could share your 'preliminary top-10 list'?
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Q#5196 MkII #080000376, 18GB green MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue

Top
#244989 - 02/01/2005 21:17 Re: Money [Re: schofiel]
cushman
veteran

Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
Quote:
Not a bad summary, but the idea of Modularity is just not achieveable due to practical aspects of how the player actually works in normal operation. The guys have looked at this (remember the big discussions about the "plug in decoder" architecture?) and it's just not on, otherwise they'd have done it! They are pretty smart cookies - if it's not been done so far, there's a good reason for it.

This is too bad, I thought this (modular code) would be our "best case" option.

Quote:
No, we are better off focussing in stability and correction of dysfunction. A final release version of V3 with all the minor playlist issues, caching, graphics, memory allocation, radio tuning and RDS to get a good meat-and-potato release of the quality of V2 Final, along with a revised disk builder seems to me to be the way to go. It is work based on established material, and has a better chance of success.

I can't justify paying for a player that will still be closed source, with no modularity (read: no future as far as I can see) with only two major features above V2: crossfading and fixed RDS and tuning. Especially since I do not have a tuner. You aren't getting a lot of interest because V2 final was most of what we need.

Quote:
Why not an effort to work on the open source players that have been floating around for a while? Well, indeed - but why hasn't it been done by now?

V2 does most of what we want, there is no killer feature yet that an open source player would provide, in fact it would be moving backwards (at least at first). jEmplode was written so it could be used on non-PC platforms, a feature that many people wanted (including the developer).

Quote:
And why pay for an open source one when I could (potentially) work on the real thing?

An open source player cannot be EOL'd. Rio cannot halt development or distribution of an open source player. We would then own the hardware, the kernel, the player and all 3rd party applications. The real thing may not have a future, and our money will have been wasted.
_________________________
Mark Cushman

Top
#244990 - 02/01/2005 21:48 Re: Money [Re: cushman]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Quote:
An open source player cannot be EOL'd. Rio cannot halt development or distribution of an open source player. We would then own the hardware, the kernel, the player and all 3rd party applications. The real thing may not have a future, and our money will have been wasted.

True, and I would like very much to have an open source player, but I don't know how to counter two Rob's arguments: scope of the task (juged both by the amount of effort put into existing player by a very competent bunch of guys@empeg and by 'inventorying' its features) and the fact that all nice add-ons we have have been single-developer efforts (I think that only Hijack got some patches by somebody other than 'lead developer'). We simply don't have very good 'bazaar' development track record

OTOH, perhaps having a promising open source player 'skeleton' commisioned by the community and started by somebody like Rob S would energize our collective development spirit. I don't know. In the meantime, I am willing to subscribe to the bug fix effort, even if the result will not be spectacularly better than 2 final.


Edited by dbrashear (03/01/2005 01:11)
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Q#5196 MkII #080000376, 18GB green MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue

Top
#244991 - 02/01/2005 22:57 Re: Money [Re: bonzi]
rob
carpal tunnel

Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
IMHO an open source player would be the best solution, and if it were pulled off I have no doubt that project would end up on many targets other than the empeg car player. Unfortunately I can't see that happening - a certain level of functionality and commitment is required before an open source project is taken seriously enough to gain wider momentum. The original (pre-1.0) player was written in a few months essentially by one person (Mike) if you don't include drivers (Hugo - but open source, so no need to duplicate) and visuals (Toby). I'd say that level of functionality would generate interest in the project, so we're looking at a commitment of maybe six months full time development by someone. If that someone expects reasonable remuneration then that's probably £15 - £20K.

A player with 3.0 functionality would be considerably more work. I'm planning a project of similar scope for a different market (closed source, sorry!) and working on the assumption of 6,000+ man hours. To make that a reality in an open source world it would be necessary to attract more developers with time on their hands than we're likely to find in the empeg community - hence targeting other platforms (e.g. generic in-car PC's).

As another option, I suspect a couple of weekends of work by three or four key people at Rio would yield an acceptably usable 3.0 Beta. At one time job satisfaction and a few pizzas would generate sufficient motivation for this, but these days I suspect it may take something more tangible.

Rob

Top
Page 2 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >