Quote:
Nice pics with Bill Clinton, Tony Blair, Bill Gates, Thabo Mbeki Olusegun Obasanjo and the ever-present Bono in a group session. Where is Bush? Where is Rice? Ahh, yes, back home making speeches about "liberty throughout the world"...

Speaking of Gates: an artice in The Economist sent me to his foundation pages. Wow! Billions he spends on global health programs (e.g. malaria vaccine research) are well publicised, but it makes barely 20% of what is spent to at least partialy reverse effects of Bush government's efforts to destroy public education, social services etc. So, now I pay Microsoft tax so that American Pacific NW homeless have a shot at standing on they own feet! Talk about global solidarity!

That inaugural speech you refered to deserves a separate thread.

Quote:
Of course, I've never voted for a Democrat for U.S. President in my life, either. Just smarter, better-qualified, and generally more moral and ethical human beings who, almost by definition, are unaffiliated with either of the two major political parties, and who again almost by definition, can and will never, ever win the Oval Office. Drats.

Quote:
I actually don't care that much about the Republicans vs. Democrats thing, it's mostly just an artifact of the quaint US two-party pseudo-democracy...

In all fairness, I think that American Republicans and Democrats currently differ on many important issues more than, say, most European Demochristians do from Social democrats (or even reformed Communists). I am affraid that European political scene is currently too 'homogenised', lacking radical marginal ideas (that still fall within the universally accepted limits of democracy and humen rights). I mean, one can't tell (to use German examples, Croatian are too obscure and surreal) CDU from SDP in labor policy, or from Greens in environment. Perhaps exception are British with their strong Euro-scepticism, and most important issue of them all, fox hunting (Then again, who would have guessed that Blair belongs to Labour?)

Quote:
Did you use "founding principles" and "LIBERAL" in the same sentence? ? ?

Quote:
Meaning of 'neo-cons'

Quote:
Anti-Semitism

Quote:
Actually, very few Jews from that time grew up in what is now Israel I imagine. Everytime I read or learn more about how the UK and US started that whole mess by promissng this and that, I cringe.

I could agree with you here. It looks as if the whole affair was designed to fail (my impression is by British more than Americans). Was displacing Palestinians really the best way to cure feeling of guilt for Holocaust? Speaking of that, what about Romanies (Gypsies)? They were being externimated by Nazis even more zealously than Jews; not only was no state constructed for them, they are still second-class citizens all over the Europe (including, I am ashamed to admit, in Croatia)...

Quote:
I even have a few friends that are liberals. I even invited one to my house once. Well, we actually just worked together at the same job.

Well, I am quite sure you are considered a friend by most of us bleeding heart liberals here. And I have very good conservative friends. But somehow they seem to be able to actually hear arguments a bit better than you guys here (and succeeded in making me change the way I look at a thing or two in our local politics)

Quote:
Well, I am a Jew, and I have been insulted, spit on, gun pulled on, knife pulled on, violence directed at, my cars trashed (and it's HARD to trash a junker!), had my home vandalized, and my family threatened. But that is to be expected from 'low brows'.

For being a Jew, or 'just on general principles'? Sounds scary and much worse than I imagined that is happening nowadays pretty much anywhere in the West...

Quote:
But when someone calls me a 'Nazi', I have to laugh! Ignorance is such a preventable illness.

Heh, I saw a segment on CNN a few years ago about a row between ultra-orthodox Israeli Jews and their guests from USA. The sin the guests commited was that men and women were praying together at the Western Wall. Of course, the most popular insult flinged was 'Nazi'...

Quote:
“capitalistic raping of forests, sea turtles and natural resource.”

Quote:
I also need to kick my dog, finish my fourth beer and beat my wife and kids.

You mean fourth six-pack? Even my nephew can take four beers!

The problem is that the gang currently at the helm of the USA and their supporters are not (only) stereotypical redneck barbarians, but seemingly refined people like Dr. Rice...

Quote:
Would that be The Pietr Priciple or the Das Peter Prinzip?....systematically lied to us and now lies about that.

Quote:
Troll.

Quote:
extinct volcano

It would seem that way, wouldn't it? I always thought it was, since we have a few others nearby.

Quote:
Actually, we traded one set of bad circumstances (oppressive single government) for a different one (regional warlords and a region which is freer albeit with a higher ambient danger level than before at the center of the country). For some people it is more of an improvement, for others, not so much.

Quote:
So could you please explain in detail how them being a joke (which I'm sure is an opinion that would go over quite nicely at the Auschwitz rememberance) equates to them not being anti-Semetic? Because you know, it's possible to clean up a highway and still hate Jews. And your original statement had nothing to do with the level of respect you have for people such as this; you stated that we "we don't have as much anti-Semitism and it's certainly not tolerated" which is, sadly, simply not true. We have plenty and it is tolerated.

Quote:
And your neighbor's kid's band is not under discussion here, nor debate. I understand it was an attempt to dismiss the argument, but it doesn't serve that purpose. After all, nobody ever said that we "certainly don't tolerate Brad's neighbor's kid's band", did we?

Quote:
I disagree. You actually went into a fair bit of detail as to your feelings about the term. And, yes, you also pointed out that people were welcome to "toss the 'neo' in there so that the casual observer might associate it with 'neo-nazi'.." Kind of a non-sequiter if you ask me (I personally never made that association until you brought it up), but that's just my opinion.

Quote:
You also stated later, in response to Rob, that "the only two 'neo-anythings' that have popular meaning are neo-con and neo-nazi" which is a sweeping generalization, and one that has the added benefit of being incorrect. You may want to reconsider; not everyone is confused by the above terms. Pretty much everyone in my circle could explain any of them. If you're right, and the general populace of the US can't, then we're in deeper trouble than I thought.

Quote:
And by the way, neophyte does not just refer to religous pursuits. It can apply to pretty much anything. Including politics, as in "Though he was a neophyte, the new congressman showed promise". You can even use it in regards to cogent argumentation.

Quote:
Might not be a bad idea. Is there something wrong, in your opinion, with having more than one source of information? Or is that just a myth perpetrated by the liberal media?

Quote:
It strikes me as odd that you seem to be making fun of any kind of intellectual pursuit. And yeah, you're missing out on them. Give the Discovery networks a shot once in the while. I know they don't bash on "liberals", but still, they're ok if your're up for learning about more than how to argue about who's right or wrong....

Quote:
Open Letter to Brad:...

It is sad that some people’s “estimation” of you has gone down because of your stance/beliefs. Of course that is what inevitably happens when people do not agree. Your still the same Brad as always but since you disagree with them you are somehow less. Note: See history – every war and prejudice is usually not personal but belief oriented.

Quote:
I also need to kick my dog, finish my fourth beer and beat my wife and kids.

Quote:
What happens when people don't agree (or what should happen) is that they try to figure out their differences by discussing them, without using overly inflammatory language and (one would hope) without making it all about attacks?

Quote:
I don't get what you're trying to say with the "lost cause" comment. Are you saying that any of us that don't agree with you are "lost causes"? Because if so, who's doing the "bombarding"?

Quote:
And I hate to break this to you, but peoples opinions of others are formed by eachothers stances and beliefs, among other things. What do you base your opinion of others on?

Quote:
A) Why comment on it at all?

Quote:
B) How is it that you have such powerful opinions on something you "don't care about"?

Quote:
And if you think Mrs. Rice being black or white or whatever matters to any of us, I think you've really made an unfortunate mistake. I personally think that this board has better things to worry about than sombody's ethnic background. I personally look at her as simply another person.

Quote:
ALL my Jewish friends drive PoS cars.

Quote:
I find that tree-hugging rhetoric about 'raping Mother Earth' silly and conter-productive. Humans are, after all, animals like any other and are expected to make most of environment for their own good.

Who expects that? Animals kill one another and some even manage to destroy their habitat. Are you suggesting there is some sort Oversight Board or greater power that might expect something like that? Them's fightin' words in these parts!

Anyway, he was just joking. Us conservatives, believe it or not, do not spend our days drving 4x4s, shooting our guns, beating our wives, drinking beer, watching Nascar or raping the forests.

And I actually agree with you on some of the points you made regarding this, but I'd rather save them for another thread. This one is bloated enough.

Quote:
stereotypical redneck barbarians

The Rednecks have cut off all ties with the The Goths, The Mongols, The Huns, and the Vikings! This is Europes problem now!

Quote:
but in contrast with parts of Europe, those people are hardly mainstream

Quote:
I see far more violence conducted against Jews in Europe (France in particular) than I do in the US.

Quote:
Rob's post was trying to critize me for daring to bring up the word "Nazi" on the Auschwitz memorial.

Please don't put words (especially with this flavour) in my mouth. Please go back, and read carefully, the exact wording of what I said.

I was disappointed that you even used the term in the context of what you were trying to say about Miz Rice (the original discussion). By coincidence, it was AMD. The use of the term Nazi in Europe has such a strong association with many generations of people that it immediately invokes revulsion when it is used as a sly insult - very much the way that the allusion to an Oedipal complex in a male US citizen will result in anger, revulsion. The difference here is perhaps one of degree - the cultural differences here will ensure that neither side understands the intensity of anger generated.

The statements being made all the way through this thread continue to show insularity, and lack of cross cultural experience. Not an ideal way to ensure a stable world culture based on diversity and acceptance.

Quote:
"but here's a start for anyone else reading this who is possibly less entrenched in their self loathing or at least don't get their news from Moveon.org."

Quote:
"And yet some liberals insist on calling her an 'Aunt Jamima' or a 'mildly smart, but idiotic, automaton.'"

Quote:
"How's your resume' lookin?"

Quote:
"or even toss the "neo" in there to make "neocon" so that the casual observor might associate it with "neo-nazi" (the "neocon" term ironically is most commonly used to imply "conservative Jew") "

Quote:
"and Condeleeza (although let's make her sound like a child and call her "Condi")"

Quote:
"Oil tanker?? Aw man, you just gave away your source... that parody George W. Bush resume right?"

Quote:
This just serves are good character assassination to try to nip her possible [2008] run at the bud.

Quote:
"Obviously there was a strong enough terrorist movement long before President Bush took office [.....] such as the "Millenium Plot" in Los Angeles. Doing nothing wasn't an option."

Quote:
"But all of this supports my original point that this is truely a debate over the Bush administration and presidential term. Defaming Condoleezza Rice by calling her an idiot, retarded (Rainman reference), puppet or even "mildly smart" is disgraceful. "

Quote:
"Doing so would mean a Bush accomplishment and that would ruin the whole effect of someone's "cough" web site. Hopefully you're not in that crowd, but how odd it must be to wake up in the morning knowing that you're wishing for the same outcome as Abu Musab al-Zarqawi."

Quote:
Well, we certainly have a disconnect here then. [...] But the only way to ensure failure is to concede to it. Ted Kennedy seems to prefer this route, I do not."

Quote:
Do you really go through life predicting doom and gloom at every turn? Would anything short of Utopia satisfy you?

Quote:
I wasn't making fun of documentaries, I was making fun of you...

Excellent. I'm sure that was much more productive than realizing that I was not trying to be rude, but rather simply pointing out the errors in your argument.

But I'm sure making fun of people and slinging accusations at Europeans, non-conservatives and anone with different opinions than you while not actually responding to any of the criticism regarding your argument would be more entertaining.

And just so we can get off that pony, Brad, I don't enjoy Bush-hating talk any more than I enjoy the European bashing. I enjoy (somewhat) intelligent discussion about the problems.

But you're right. We'll have to agree to disagree, as this whole thread has become mired in ideological bickering. Because some of us appear to expect FACTS to back up an argument. It would seem not all of us use the same criteria to differentiate reality from fantasy.

And it's spelled "condescending".

Quote:
but it'll be a cold day in hell before I'm about to watch the swill from CBC or the BBC thank you very much

Quote:
Anyway, he was just joking.

Err, you thought I was not aware of that?

Quote:
Us conservatives, believe it or not, do not spend our days drving 4x4s, shooting our guns, beating our wives, drinking beer, watching Nascar or raping the forests.

Quote:
And I actually agree with you on some of the points you made regarding this, but I'd rather save them for another thread. This one is bloated enough.

Quote:
The Rednecks have cut off all ties with the The Goths, The Mongols, The Huns, and the Vikings! This is Europes problem now!

Vandals were out favourites. Anyway, it would seem that rednecks don't need role models.

Quote:
"Lost cause" means that there really isn't any chance of changing some people's minds because they are so obviously entrenched in their views.

Quote:
Most of us simply say, "I disagree with you, but I respect you." I don't think Jim and I could be more politically opposite with one another, but I deeply respect him and think he's an intelliegent guy. That isn't to say he doesn't make my blood boil sometimes, but I'm not going to let politics get in the way of my view of a person.

And that's why I am puzzled at your insulted response at someone here saying he considered you a decent guy. Perhaps we have different ideas on nuances of meaning of 'decent' - my English highschool training was in British English and there slightly understated compliments were preferred.

Speaking of blood boiling, it is good that I currently don't share my appartment with anyone - no one to doubt my mental health as I shout at invisible Brad, not understanding how he doesn't see things that are plain as day...

Quote:
Hopefully you're not in that crowd, but how odd it must be to wake up in the morning knowing that you're wishing for the same outcome as Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

Quote:
If you were referring to the other kind of moderation (as in BBS / thread control), I practice that myself with what threads I read, skim or ignore.

Quote:

Quote:
ALL my Jewish friends drive PoS cars.

Dude, that's a broad statement. Careful.

Quote:
Thereby implying that all Europeans are nuts who think the world is run by Jewish bankers.

It sure reads that way doesn't it? I'm sorry. I in no way think that's the case. I even had to reread my posts to make sure I had writen it. It was my whole "there is more violence against Jews in Europe than the USA" thing, but whether it's true or not doesn't matter and it made no sense for me to bring it up. I made the mistake of waiting a day before I read the replies. Then I'd panic and think "Aw man, I have to hurry and reply to 9 replies to me!" Next time, I'll read then wait a day.

Well, crap, this is going to take all night and only add 3 more pages if I go one by one... so I'll be brief.

Jim: Before I emailed Tom, I reread my initial post and I had this sinking feeling once I realized how I tossed the jab in there (which wasn't directly aimed at you, but it was overly aggressive). I didn't realize I started off like a troll that way. Would you believe that d33yz stole my login info? Probably not. I'd like to apologize. Regarding your points about Rice, I agree with you on some points, disagree with you on others, but in general can see where you're coming from and share some of your frustrations regarding the war and the general state of pre and post war intelligence.

Webroach: Yeah this whole thing sucks. I was being just as rude as I accused you of being. Being in a defensive mood, I read "descent" in a totally sarcastic way. Most of what I've writen above applies to you too.