#247776 - 31/01/2005 05:36
Re: Rain Woman
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Quote:
Would you believe that d33yz stole my login info?
Absolutely! 
Heh, I understand the urge to reply immediately. Being so comfortable with these novel surrogates for real communication, we sometimes forget (at least I do) it's not like yelling at a stuborn friend over one beer too many, and then laughing, changing the subject and having another one. Maybe we should use Skype teleconferencing for our political arguments? 
Quote:
Webroach: Why can't all this politics crap just go away?
Sadly, together with proverbial death and taxes (and eventual catastrophic loss of invaluable data for us computer types), there is no escape from it. Perhaps the fix is more grassroot political activity, not less....
Anyway, real life is calling, my friends. I am late for work. 
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#247777 - 01/02/2005 00:25
Re: Rain Woman
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Brad,
Thanks. I'm about 1/2 way through a book that makes me want to start a nasty Madeleine Albright thread, but I think I'll maybe let that lie for a few weeks in favor of some movie spoiler theads while I watch this one drift off the scope.
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#247778 - 01/02/2005 01:24
Re: Rain Woman
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Sounds like good reading!
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Brad B.
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#247779 - 01/02/2005 05:39
Re: Rain Woman
[Re: jimhogan]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Mmm, interesting! I have quite high opinion of her, which probably means there's plenty of suff I don't know!
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#247780 - 01/02/2005 08:23
Re: Rain Woman
[Re: webroach]
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veteran
Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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Quote:
Why can't all this politics crap just go away? 
Well, I guess part of the problem is that this is more than about politics. It's also about fundamental values and beliefs, and yes, religion. When you mix religious fundamentalism (be it christianity, islam, judaism or whatever) into politics, you always have an explosive situation - too often literally.
Some of us believe that you are free to believe whatever you want, but that you should grant others that right too. Others seem to believe that their particular belief system is the only "right" one, and try to impose it on others. That's a pretty fundamental difference of view.
One of the really sad things (as we se even on this board) is how the current US political situation really divides people. Good friends stop talking to each other because they happen to be on different sides of the democrat/republican trench...
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#247781 - 01/02/2005 12:49
Re: Rain Woman
[Re: bonzi]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
Mmm, interesting! I have quite high opinion of her, which probably means there's plenty of suff I don't know!
Well, so do/did I (have a high opinion), and it is probably not fair to lay all at her doorstep without thinking about it...I'm now about 2/3 of the way through "Shake Hands With the Devil: The Failure of Humanity in Rwanda". She and we (U.S.) don't look very good. A much easier book to read than I would have thought, BTW. Very interesting to read Dallaire's narrative. Yes, once again, I could long to be Canadian.
(edit: I should not single out the U.S. for not looking good in 1994, but it just happens to be where I was born and raised. And we had the highest capacity to do better.)
Edited by jimhogan (01/02/2005 13:06)
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#247782 - 01/02/2005 13:59
Re: Rain Woman
[Re: julf]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
Some of us believe that you are free to believe whatever you want, but that you should grant others that right too. Others seem to believe that their particular belief system is the only "right" one, and try to impose it on others. That's a pretty fundamental difference of view.
At the risk of exploding this thread again, I’d have to disagree with the line you’ve drawn here. It’s more like a spectrum and we find ourselves in different places. We all impose our beliefs on other people; the only question is how much we do it. Some say they only impose their beliefs when the behavior in question affects other people, but the truth is that 99% of all behavior affects others- the only question is how drastic the consequences are.
Most people agree that there has to be some kind of law that prohibits certain behavior. And this law is derived from some sort of collective internal idea of what is “right” and “wrong”. For instance- we pretty much all agree that if someone wants to go around killing people for no good reason, well that’s wrong. But when we start talking about motivation, the line seems to get blurry. What if the person is insane? What if they are defending their property? What if they are defending a loved one? What if they were being manipulated? What if they are a soldier in battle? What if the state is doing the killing as a form of punishment? What if there is a question as to the personhood of the "victim”? Some of these questions have clear answers that most agree on, others are murkier. Some seem very clear and obvious, and yet we come up with different answers. The point is, virtually EVERYONE seeks to impose their beliefs on others, just in different areas and to different extents.
And then once you add religion to the mix the difference get even more pronounced because you have ideas based on premises that don’t make sense to others. People on the outside see the issues as irrelevant and an overreaching of personal beliefs. People on the inside see the issues as truth that the world has obscured, but that also really does affect others and is important to enforce.
People have used religions to prop themselves up and create codes that bring them personal power and control over others. It is the most abused part of religions (and what Jesus spent that majority of His time on earth talking about). However, people have also abused many other institutions such as business, government, and other completely secular organizations. But as true as that is, many involved in organized religion are not seeking power or control- merely to help us all experience the best possible life that we can. Yes religion sometimes seeks prohibitions on things that not everyone agrees with. So does enlightened thinking. And many times (I believe) both are right, even though the world doesn’t see it. I realize the popular answer to this is, “I don’t want someone deciding what’s best for me, thank you very much.” But there are many things we have as a society deemed as best for you, whether you agree with these is immaterial- you ARE protected from murder, robbery, slander, and a host of other things. And you are not allowed to murder, rob, or slander someone else, even if you think you should be allowed to. In a sense, society already protects you from yourself, it’s just that none of us really need to be told not to murder, rob, or slander. But those are clear examples, and there are an awful lot of laws that are fare more complex.
I truly, deeply believe that all of the political conflict comes from humanities obscuring of the truth and being who we were created by God to be. And by this, I don’t mean that if everyone were Christians then we’d all get along. I’ve can tell you internal Church politics between well meaning people are every bit as contentious as some of the division between political parties. My point is that we live in a world where the truth has been obscured and we all see things in a different, unfocused light. Others believe that there is no real “truth”, but the result is the same: we all think that we draw the “correct” line between personal liberty and imposition of law on other individuals, but (I believe) none of us really do, and we certainly can’t agree on it. So the best system we have is to voice our ideas, sometimes very fundamental and personal ones, and decide as a democracy what to follow- or in another word: politics. It’s ugly and I personally hate politics, but at least none of us have to submit to the fringe beliefs of a single individual. We at least get to submit to something that’s widely accepted, even if we don’t agree. And I don’t know how we can ever do any better than that, even as ugly as it is.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#247783 - 01/02/2005 15:01
Re: Rain Woman
[Re: JeffS]
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veteran
Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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Quote:
we all think that we draw the “correct” line between personal liberty and imposition of law on other individuals, but (I believe) none of us really do, and we certainly can’t agree on it.
I can certainly agree with that.
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So the best system we have is to voice our ideas, sometimes very fundamental and personal ones, and decide as a democracy what to follow- or in another word: politics. It’s ugly and I personally hate politics, but at least none of us have to submit to the fringe beliefs of a single individual. We at least get to submit to something that’s widely accepted, even if we don’t agree. And I don’t know how we can ever do any better than that, even as ugly as it is.
Well, some systems protect the rights of the minority a bit better than others. What really scares me about the US system is that it hands over the power so strongly to a nominal majority (as in 50.01%).
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#247784 - 01/02/2005 19:49
Re: Rain Woman
[Re: JeffS]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Jeff, you probably know with what parts of this I would agree (most), and which not, but I must say you put it nicely.
Of course, I don't believe a moment that Julf's intention was to divide people in two neatly delineated groups, 'us' and 'them'. However, you know those impossibly self-righteous people who don't for a moment doubt their convictions and are perfectly sure those are the only possible way for the whole world, and that this should be beaten into world's head, so to speak.
You believe your mission, perhaps even the main purpose of your existence, is to spread your belief, so that the rest of us could exist in Christ's grace (the concept I still don't quite understand). However, I am quite sure that, should you find yourself in position of political power, you would still use only your words and power of persuasion to 'spread the word', not coercion. This makes you completely different from those Julf (and I) abhor.
Cheers!
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#247785 - 02/02/2005 05:15
Re: Rain Woman
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
Yes, once again, I could long to be Canadian.
Maybe one of these kind folks can help you out, eh?
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#247786 - 02/02/2005 06:13
Re: Rain Woman
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
At the risk of exploding this thread again, [...]
Can I nominate this for the Best Post In Thread award?
I'm going to slightly re-order a couple of your statements...
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I truly, deeply believe that all of the political conflict comes from humanities obscuring of the truth and being who we were created by God to be.
Quote:
People have used religions to prop themselves up and create codes that bring them personal power and control over others. [...] However, people have also abused many other institutions such as business, government, and other completely secular organizations.
I think you've really touched on two seperate, but intertwined issues there. I'll ignore the religious aspect of the first, and simplify it a little to "political conflict comes from different perceptions of what constitutes the truth" -- where a person finds their Truth, whether through a religion, or not, is immaterial to the fundamental argument. That's the first issue, and I think that sort of political conflict is reasonable, and a healthy conflict -- what do we do about something like abortion? (Rhetorical question for illustrative purposes, only...)
The second issue is in your second quote, and I think that's where a preponderance of current US political conflict comes from. I suspect that a large number of non-Bush supporters see the current administration falling completely, and wholly within that description -- on both the religious and secular aspects. I know I certainly do. (But then, I also see the same problems, at least on the secular side, with the Dems, too.)
I don't know how for certain, but it feels as though the preponderance of conservatives are voting based primarily on the first issue, and secondarily on the latter, while the opposite is true for the liberals. When I see the (re-ordered) first statement, along with the second statement, it's pretty clear that the two sides will never meet in the middle -- they're simply on two seperate paths.
The sad part of all this? The second issue is exactly what the founding fathers were trying to prevent via the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. For one person's perspective on how that was derailed take a look at this article and book.
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#247787 - 02/02/2005 12:25
Re: Rain Woman
[Re: bonzi]
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veteran
Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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Quote:
However, I am quite sure that, should you find yourself in position of political power, you would still use only your words and power of persuasion to 'spread the word', not coercion. This makes you completely different from those Julf (and I) abhor.
Extremely well put. I also think that a crucial difference is that pretty much everybody on this board would have the humbleness and intellectual honesty to know that we don't know all the answers - unlike some who have the strength of Faith to know They Are Right. That faith might not be a religion, it might just as well be any -ism...
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#247788 - 02/02/2005 13:35
Re: Rain Woman
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
Maybe one of these kind folks can help you out, eh?
Why, thanks for that link! Why, yes, I am quite interested in hooking up with a gorgeous, personable, middle-aged (oh, even young if need be!) female Mega-Lotto winner from Vancouver who could somehow find my annoying habits entertaining and who could support me in a manner to which I could become accustomed.
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#247789 - 02/02/2005 19:09
Re: Rain Woman
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Quote:
And yes, liberal. It's amazing how people who are liberals get so defensive about the word. You can call me "conservative" all day long or even toss the "neo" in there to make "neocon" so that the casual observor might associate it with "neo-nazi" (the "neocon" term ironically is most commonly used to imply "conservative Jew") and I won't mind.
There are apparently those who do want you to make that connection:
Bush-Nazi link
On one hand, so much for the "Liberal media" theory; They didn't report this, right?
On the other, maybe there's a *reason* they didn't report it.
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#247790 - 03/02/2005 20:06
Re: Rain Woman
[Re: Daria]
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member
Registered: 10/09/2004
Posts: 127
Loc: Bay Area, CA/Anchorage, AK
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There are still Americans alive today who were aware of much of this at the time. My mother, (who isn't; she would be 91) lived in NYC in the 30's-early 40's and brought it up when G.H.W.Bush was running as V.P., so it is more than recent gossip. Fascinating that no mainstream media will touch it...
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#247791 - 03/02/2005 20:44
Re: Rain Woman
[Re: kayakjazz]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Quote:
There are still Americans alive today who were aware of much of this at the time. My mother, (who isn't; she would be 91) lived in NYC in the 30's-early 40's and brought it up when G.H.W.Bush was running as V.P., so it is more than recent gossip. Fascinating that no mainstream media will touch it...
True or not, I ask this, with interest: am I responsible for the sins of my father? Or my grandfather? If so, why?
(And, well, if not, why not?)
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#247792 - 03/02/2005 21:06
Re: Rain Woman
[Re: Daria]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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How can one be responsible for things that happened before he was born? At the same time, it's certainly possible to be influenced by them, although the direction of that influence is not certain (I'm sure there are as many men who want to be exactly like their fathers as there are men who want to be nothing like them). One might also make the case that genetics influences predilictions, even something as high-level as favoring money over morality; I wouldn't. But the environment in which one is raised is bound to be very influential to the ultimate personality.
Not that you were asking me.
Edited by wfaulk (03/02/2005 21:07)
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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