Computer Vs, Stereo Vs. Empeg.

I am sure by now you are all getting tired of my endless chatter and questions so I'll go out with a bang. I currently have a Empeg player 60G works great but I was checking out some of the new audio gear and I raised some questions again.
I spent two hours trying to convence my friend that empeg was the way to go but with no good hard facts I failed, in fact now I am not sure which is the way to go, all of the options have there Pros and Cons
Looking for some UNbiased input and I am sorry but "because" is not good enough if you could post some good hards facts that would be great.(I swear this will be the last time I ask this) The Cost is not a huge issue for me but I find it hard to swallow a 500 bill to fiberglass in a screen and I lack the ability to do it myself. all of the soultions are in the same ball park and I could sell my empeg for 400 easy so thats not an issue.
Please don't hate meI am just looking for input, before I drop 700 bucks to upgrade my empeg and get a DEQ.




Empeg 60G 450.00
DEQ with sub woofer level control 250.00
Upgrades to empeg 280 (not including a new face if they ever get out of VaporWare stage)
Tuner 200.00
Total 1180.00
Pros
Best UI I have seen
Single all in one unit

Cons
No longer supported (end users now fix all the issues, no plans for anymore software upgrades in the near future
Fewer and fewer are around


New Car Computer
Computer 300
Screen 600
DC/DC PS 200
Tuner 50
Total 1150.

Pros
5.1 or even 7.1 sound
Movies, TV, Games and GPS-Nav
Common parts at any local fry's
Full Color Touch Screen
Engine Diag
Email
Web Surfing
Unlimited add on's
I can fix any computer with an Intel inside Sticker

Cons.
Not a all in one unit
More complex to install
Higher drain on car's electrical system
Mounting Monitor is spendy and the dash monitors are a bit funky looking.


Alpine, Pioneer Head Unit Avic-N2 Or N2 or IVA900
Cost 1400


Pros
New with warrenty
Color
Nav, GPS, DVD
Engine Diag.
Built in 5.1
Built in sub output.
Built in Tuner

Cons.
Cost
Kludgie UI when playing MP3's




(Empeg 3)
VAPORWARE
May or May not ever hit the streets.

Isn't this like the twentieth time you've sold an empeg, just to come back to it again? At least do yourself a favor and hang onto it this time so you don't have to find one again.

That being said, what kind of "good hard facts" do you want? You want signal-to-noise ratio info? No one has it. And guess what? Unless you want to play your empeg in-car without the engine on, any noise coming from the car itself is going to more than compensate for the 2dB loss you might have anyway.

That being said, and I think I've said this all before:

"No longer supported": You think you're going to get any support on a home-built carputer? Or you think Pioneer/Sony/whoever support is going to be anything more than "buy another one"?

"Fewer and fewer around": First, are they spontaneously combusting and no one told me? Second, even if they are, who cares? Do you need ten thousand other people to also have one to make you feel like your purchase is okay?

The carputer will certainly have more features at the expense of having a good UI.

5.1/7.1 sound: Super if you're watching movies. So far, very few audio recordings have more than stereo separation. I suppose you could get those fifty albums from back in the 70s recorded in quadrophonic and the 12 albums from this year recorded as DVD-Audio.

Other commercial in-dash MP3 players: I'm assuming those are the ones with hard drives. And the ones you have to rip your CDs in car for. Actually, that won't be too bad since you can't fit much music on their 10GB hard drives.

Also, if you want people to respond and take you seriously, maybe you should think about using punctuation, good grammar, and correct spelling.

Gee I always like it when I ask a question and someone Tears me a New A-hole for no good reason, thank you.
This is a new laptop and doesn't have a spell checker installed yet and as I have said before I have Dyslexia,I am not stupid or retarded in fact other then grammer I was in the top 5% of my State on the SAT's and my IQ is Well above normal, what you see as poor grammer looks perfectly fine to me, (see below)
Yes I do want hard data I am
Frequency responce (would be a great starting point) I find it had to beleive that will all the people here that built the empeg in the first place no one knows. (makes me think they are hiding something, but I digress)
Sure right now there are very few Audio cd's/DVD's in 5.1 but that could change, I just picked up Hotel Califorina in 5.1 Audio DVD its nice. and a lot of classical music is on audio DVD's now.

I don't need any support on a home built car computer I can fix it my self something I can't do with the Empeg.
I have never had bad luck with Pioneer or Alpine honoring their warrentees and you can even get an extended one.
Sure if it breaks you can buy a new Empeg but for how long, I think atleast 50 or so have been reported broken or stolen and all good things must come to an end there are only what 4000 of them in the world.
Let me ask you this, would you spend 400 bucks to upgrade a 5 year old computer? and that is what I am about to do, spend over 400 bucks to upgrade my empeg knowing full well it won't increase the value at all, and when a new face comes out that will be 200 more easy. so I think I have a good reason to pose the question.
(Buttons, new encoder, Led kit and memory upgrade plus a DEQ so I can get the cross over its missing and a sub out)
I am sorry I ofended the grammer Police but my questions still stand poor grammer and all, and seeing your name is red if you find me so offensive I am sure you can just remove my access and I won't bother you anymore.




Dyslexia is a chronic reading problem that affects an estimated 10 million Americans. It is a very common learning difficulty, affecting a large percentage of those labeled "learning disabled." People with dyslexia may have trouble with reading, writing, spelling, math, and sometimes, music. Three times as many boys as girls have dyslexia.
Most people think dyslexia is a condition that involves reading from right to left and reversing words and letters. While some people with dyslexia do have these problems, they are not the most common or most important characteristics of dyslexia. Experts say dyslexia has little to do with recognizing the visual form of words; rather, the brains of people with dyslexia are wired differently, making it difficult for them to break the letters of written words into the distinct sounds (or phonemes) of their language, a capability called phonologic awareness.
Dyslexia can occur at any level of intellectual ability. Sometimes children with dyslexia appear to their teachers and parents to lack motivation or not to be trying hard enough. Dyslexia may be accompanied by -- but is not a result of -- lack of motivation, emotional or behavioral problems, and sensory impairment.
A more positive view of dyslexia describes people with dyslexia as visual, multidimensional thinkers who are intuitive, highly creative, and excel at hands-on learning. Many dyslexic people shine in the arts, creativity, design, computing, and lateral thinking, and their ranks include Albert Einstein, one of the world's best-known physicists.
What Are the Symptoms?
People with dyslexia may have problems in several of the following areas that interfere with their ability to learn:
Learning Style: May be early or late in crawling, walking or talking; appears bright but doesn't read, write, or spell at grade level; may be seen as not trying hard enough; may not perform well on tests despite a high IQ.
Motor Skills: Has poor handwriting or trouble writing or copying; has poor coordination; does not do well at team sports; has difficulty with motor-oriented tasks; is prone to motion sickness; may be ambidextrous; confuses left and right, and over and under; learns best through hands-on experiences.
Language and Reading Skills: Gets dizzy, headache, or stomachache when reading; doesn't read for pleasure; shows transpositions, additions, substitutions, or reversals in letters, numbers, and words when reading or writing; spells phonetically and inconsistently; has difficulty putting thoughts into words; may stutter.

You point out the importance of the empeg UI. This is absolutely one of the biggest arguments in favor of the empeg over virtually any other in-car solution. All things considered, it just works.

In the modern world, I'd say the real competition to place against an empeg is one or another form of iPod integration, particularly when it's supported by the car manufacturer directly. An iPod is much easier to toss in your pocket than an empeg, and you can get a 60GB iPod today (probably 80GB real soon). That's enough space for many people's needs (maybe not Paul Grzelak...).

The other competition for an empeg isn't a hard drive-based system. It's XM or Sirius satellite. Yeah, you have to pay a monthly service fee and despite the millions of channels, none of them are exactly what you're looking for, but they can be good enough for many people's needs, and are surprisingly well integrated in a number of cars as well as aftermarket headunits.

Ultimately, it boils down to your own preferences as well as issues beyond your control, like whether it's physically possible to replace the factory stereo without re-engineering your car (e.g., if your A/C controller shares a chassis with your stereo).

(And, for what it's worth, I'm totally with Bitt. If you've got an empeg, don't sell it. If nothing else, it makes for a fine home stereo component.)

you won't get any fight from me Empeg has the best UI around I can find any song on mine with outtaking my eyes off the road for long.(over 22k songs) but some of the new front ends for car pc's are mighty close.

I would pay BUCKS if someone would port it over to the PC Media player Sucks (and the Empeg front end with a touch screen would be perfect)

All three of the solutions you mentioned are going to sound like garbage if you don't add more $$. For starters a good amp and some decent speakers - consider a sub as well. I'd say that's a MINIMUM of an additional $1000-3000.

I don't know anyone with the same level of SQ as my install. My empeg install.

I also don't know where you'd get an Alpine or Pioneer system, INCLUDING NAV, for $1400 complete new. Unless they have some new models I haven't looked at priced at half what the previous models were.

Whatever decision you make, just make SOME decision and stop posting such lame threads. Really, they're ANNOYING.

You ask for help comparing Apples and Oranges and come up with the most contrived systems with completely off-base prices. Why don't you just install all three of them? If price doesn't matter...

Bruno

I have infinity Kappa Perfect Speakers in all the doors and a Kappa Perfect sub in the back running off a 6 channle PPI Amp, and I am sorry But I don't think its "LAME" to ask questions of people that are supposed to know.

Would it be a possibility to keep the empeg for home use as others have suggested, and build a carputer too?
You may be able to keep the dock in the dash just in case you still want to use the Empeg in-car at a later stage.
It sounds to me as though you are pretty keen on the carputer option, and you make the valid point that if something inside fails then it is relatively easy to replace e.g. memory, PCI cards or mobo, just slot another one in.
As mentioned, the UI is not as good yet as the Empeg, but if you put up with this for a while, no doubt it will improve with upgrades.
As far as S/N, frequency response etc. goes, I second Bitt. In a moving car the background noise will overpower any circuit noise.

Just my 0.02

How about having multiple units?

Maybe the an AVIC-N2 unit as a master and the empeg as a source into it. I like the GPS stuff it is just a bit out of my price range right now.

I think I would get way too frustrated with an in car computer. Slow bootup times, more noise, and so many things to convert. Havent many people here ditched their in car pc efforts for the empeg?

Your configurations and prices are all different - the solutions serve very different needs.

Time for some schooling.

What do you need the external EQ for in the empeg install? You think you're going to improve the sound with it? Not likely. Remove that wasteful component and you have some instant savings. If your system doesn't sound right then you've messed up the install or those Kappas aren't as good as the chavs and skids who buy them think they are.

The Pioneer looks like some dead-end ultra-low-end piece of crap. One single disc? Ha. you have to swap between map disc and music disc or DVD. That's lame and that's why it's under $2000. Seriously, you're going to buy something from a company that uses Scions for displays?

The Alpine IVA-D900 is a discontinued model. New it was about $2000, but I don't know how much it can be had for now. It does not include NAV. It has a NAV input, but GPS and dedicated NAV DVD-drive must be purchased seperately. Even with the base unit, you have to install components in your dash AND under one of the seats. Add NAV and that's yet another box and more wires to install.

"WE" are supposed to know... Well, here's what I know. I consider Pioneer and Alpine mass-market low-end crap as far as audio goes. But maybe you'll be happy with them seeing as you also went for Infinity products.

None of the solutions except the empeg and the Carputer will play MP3s once installed (without adding even more hardware). For the Alpine or Pioneer you'll have to add an iPod - unless you want to listen to CDs. And if you want to listen to CDs then you shouldn't be considering the empeg nor carputer at all.

The order of (official/unofficial/third-party) support and sustainability go like this:

empeg
carputer
Alpine/Pioneer (distant third)

The carputer is likely easier to fix yourself but I'm sure you'll be disappointed at the tweaking you have to do and at the software some people put out for it (it's mostly really bad). You might also not enjoy the hoops you'll have to jump through to get acceptable SQ. Forget about this nonsense about in-car noise. Good SQ is good SQ. Bad SQ just gets amplified by road noise, not masked. Not to mention that you'll also need to shell out significant $$ for a good-looking install.

My suggestion is to get some Alpine model and then get yourself an iPod. Then you'll have the low-end mass-market poser head unit you've been lusting after for ages, you'll have MP3's on a respectable hard drive and... You can probably stop asking these questions for at least another three months (until something crawls up your butt again and you get that "let's change everything" itch.)

I can't stand people not doing their own research when all the info is right in front of them. But someone asking the same thing... Over and over and over burns me the most. Use empirical testing - try everything for yourself and judge.

Bruno

The typos are for Bitt.

quote]

What do you need the external EQ for in the empeg install? You think you're going to improve the sound with it? Not likely. Remove that wasteful component and you have some instant savings. If your system doesn't sound right then you've messed up the install or those Kappas aren't as good as the chavs and skids who buy them think they are.

The Pioneer looks like some dead-end ultra-low-end piece of crap. One single disc? Ha. you have to swap between map disc and music disc or DVD. That's lame and that's why it's under $2000. Seriously, you're going to buy something from a company that uses Scions for displays?

"WE" are supposed to know... Well, here's what I know. I consider Pioneer and Alpine mass-market low-end crap as far as audio goes. But maybe you'll be happy with them seeing as you also went for Infinity products.


My suggestion is to get some Alpine model and then get yourself an iPod. Then you'll have the low-end mass-market poser head unit you've been lusting after for ages, you'll have MP3's on a respectable hard drive and... You can probably stop asking these questions for at least another three months (until something crawls up your butt again and you get that "let's change everything" itch.)

I can't stand people not doing their own research when all the info is right in front of them. But someone asking the same thing... Over and over and over burns me the most. Use empirical testing - try everything for yourself and judge.

Bruno

The typos are for Bitt.



What I want from the DEQ is simple a Cross-over I want the sound below 90Ish Hz to only go to the sub not the door speakers (something the empeg lacks)

I have no Idea what “chavs and skids” is but I am pretty sure it’s an insult to someone.
Name something better under 600 a pair. Focal, MB quartz, Diamond Audio, maybe Boston acoustics then Infinity.
I have owned Diamond’s Flag Ship Hex Speakers 799 a pair, I have owned Boston Acoustic 3 ways system for over 800 before installation and I keep going back to Infinity because to me they sound more realistic.

“Well, here's what I know. I consider Pioneer and Alpine mass-market low-end crap as far as audio goes. But maybe you'll be happy with them seeing as you also went for Infinity products” (Seeing Mark Levinson only builds systems for Lexus and Krell hasn’t started making Car speakers so what do you run that is so much better)

“Alpine model and then get yourself an iPod. Then you'll have the low-end mass-market poser head unit you've been lusting after for ages”

You don’t know a DAMM THING about me, if you would have bother to pay attention I had the IVA-900 and sold it to get Empeg number seven because the Ipod interface was junk.




“I can't stand people not doing their own research when all the info is right in front of them. “

All the info it NOT right in front of me because Empeg didn’t include some information that no one seems willing to pass on but here is the info.

Alpine IVA-901
Pretty good numbers for "mass-market low-end crap"

Channel Separation (1kHz) : 85 dB
DAC Type : M DAC (96kHz / 24Bit Multi-Level DAC)
Dynamic Range (1kHz) : 95 dB
Frequency Response : 5-20k ±1 dB
Horizontal Resolution : 500 lines or greater
Number of DACs : 2
Optical Output : Toslink (Dolby Digital/DTS/ LPCM)
Oversampling : 8X/352.8kHz
Sampling Rate : 44.1khz
Signal-to-Noise (S/N) : 105 dB
Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) : 0.008%
Wow & Flutter (%WRMS) : B.M.L


Pioneer Avic-N2
Pretty good numbers for "mass-market low-end crap"
Sampling Frequency 44.1/48/96kHz
Quantization Bits 16/20/24-bit:Linear
Frequency Response 5 ~ 44,000Hz at 96khz
Signal-to-Noise Ratio 97db (1kHz)
Dynamic Range 95db (1kHz)
Distortion 0.008% (1kHz)



Audigy
Pretty good numbers for "mass-market low-end crap"

Signal-to-Noise Ratio (AES17, A-Weighted)
Output Voltage @ 2Vrms
Stereo Output 113dB
Front and Rear Channels 113dB
Center, Subwoofer and Side Channels 113dB

Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise at 1kHz (AES17) = 0.003% (2V Rated Output)
Frequency Response +/-3dB: 10Hz to 46kHz


Empeg
Audio DAC sample rate fixed 44.1KHz
DAC typical S/N ratio 110dBA
DAC typical output noise 3uV
DAC typical THD + N 1Khz, 0dB -70dBA
DAC typical dynamic range 1Khz (-60dB) 102dBA
DAC max crosstalk 10Khz -69dB
Aux input frequency response 20Hz to 18KHz
Aux input typical channel seperation 50dB
Equaliser 20 band parametric set as 2 x 10-band or 4 x 5-band
Other audio features Dynamic range compression

Notice all the numbers are Typical output of the DAC and don’t take into account any other losses or issues, none of the actual numbers are listed and no listing for frequency response has ever been posted to my knowledge.

Hey, everyone, let's keep this civil. If you don't like reading the posts he makes, don't. Don't complain when you voluntarily do so.

I only really have two things to add here:
1. Don't ignore the relative difficulty of building a 10-band parametric EQ, for Windows, that you can adjust while still paying attention to the road. I'm not aware of a sound card that has this built into its control panel, so that means you're going to need it in your audio player software. That instantly rules out a number of the best players, such as Foobar2000, because while they have all these features and more, they are far from something you could adjust while sitting at a brief red light. Also, believe me when I say that the Audigy 2 NX isn't a fair comparison to the empeg. Good luck getting 4V out from that. Expect to either add something like an AudioControl Overdrive, or skip the Audigy and get a more serious sound card. Personally, I'd budget about $600 for the carputer sound card alone.

2. My empeg car system sounds awesome, and your buddy is welcome to give it a listen if he's near North Florida.
empeg Mk2a / 3.0a8
Rainbow Profi Kick tweeters in front
Rainbow Profi Kick 6.5" front and rear
2 x Alumapro Alchemy MX 10"s
Precision Power DCX 800.5
Soundstream Renoir (fully Class A)
Audio Control DXS digital crossover network
Fully active, no passive crossover components anywhere
Some big capacitor I had lying around
Four figures worth of sound deadening from SecondSkin

It would take a very, very serious carputer setup to beat that. In my opinion, the next significant step up would require full 'room correction', a la TacT Millennium / DEQX / DRC

The empeg is a very serious piece of car audio gear, and I wouldn't decide for or against it by looking at unverified specs from various semi-trustworthy manufacturers.