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#259290 - 29/06/2005 14:16 Scooby amp install
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5757
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
With Amersfoort 2005 fast approaching I am running out of time to get an empeg installed in my UK 2000MY Scooby before the meet.

I had planned to get a professional install, but money is a little tight at the moment so I'm going to have to do it myself.

I'm not planning anything fancy, I am happy to keep the stock speakers and cabling for the moment. So I will be just installing an amp and the empeg/tuner.

I've got a five door, so I don't want anything in the boot (trunk). It looks like there is plenty of room under the passenger seat for a 4 channel amp ?

Questions:

- is there somewhere obvious to run the power through from the engine bay ?
- the front speakers have separate tweeters, do I need some sort of cross over to wire them up to the new amp ?
- is it good enough to simply bolt the amp to a chunk of MDF that is Velcro'd to the carpet ?
- how much room is there for the tuner in the dash ?

Any other tips ?
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#259291 - 29/06/2005 15:12 Re: Scooby amp install [Re: andy]
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3978
Loc: Manchester UK
I can't offer you an scooby specific advice but here goes....

As far as mounting the amp goes, under the seats is an option. I actually mounted my amp to the back of one of the rear seats in my Orion, that worked very well and didn't really impede storage in the boot. My current install has the amp velcro'd directly to the carpet under the drivers seat. I just bought a roll of velco hooks from Maplin for about a quid. The bugger refuses to budge now.

For speaker wiring I've used two methods in the past, on the orion and the clio I used the old loopback trick. That is to wire the front speaker wires to the back ones via a loopback on the speaker ISO connector. This means with the amp in the boot I connect the amp directly to the rear speakers with fresh cable and then using an autoleads speaker connector adaptor wire the other amp outputs to the cable formerly connected to the rear speakers. Hey presto four speakers wired up without running loads of extra speaker cable. Also an added bonus is that they also use the factory crossovers that way too.

For the smart it was a little different. I simply ran two pairs of speaker wire from the amp to the headunit and used an iso connector to attach them to the speaker inputs on the loom.

EDIT: I've always been a little jittery about removing bolts for seats and seatbelts. I'd rather just leave them in place.
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#259292 - 29/06/2005 16:11 Re: Scooby amp install [Re: andy]
mtempsch
pooh-bah

Registered: 02/06/2000
Posts: 1996
Loc: Gothenburg, Sweden
Quote:
ont speakers have separate tweeters, do I need some sort of cross over to wire them up to the new amp ?
- is it good enough to simply bolt the amp to a chunk of MDF that is Velcro'd to the carpet ?



Can't speak with authority on Subarus, but unless you have some sort of premium sound package, any crossover for the front components are likely to simply be a capacitor in series on the tweeter (tweeter+cap then simply wired in parallell to the woofer)

How well velcro works depends on the type of carpet and the velcro, but normally works well. Velcro normally balances grip <-> open/close cycles, it can be meant for many cycles and then typically has less powerful grip.

If you want to be extra sure, consider metal brackets/whatever and anchor the MDF to the seats anchoring bolts... hard or easy depending on exact design...

Is the Scooby ICE FAQ helpful wrt. your model?
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#259293 - 29/06/2005 16:47 Re: Scooby amp install [Re: mtempsch]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5757
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Quote:

Is the Scooby ICE FAQ helpful wrt. your model?


Yes, somewhat thanks. It does at least help with cable routing suggestions.
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#259294 - 29/06/2005 16:48 Re: Scooby amp install [Re: andy]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 13879
Loc: Canada
I just used the factory wiring in my 1998 Subaru. Crimped little T-taps into it and left the original factory connector in place for future use. All the wires needed were already present behind the din slot.

Cross-overs (if needed) should already be present on the factory speakers, so don't worry about them.

Cheers

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#259295 - 29/06/2005 16:49 Re: Scooby amp install [Re: andym]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5757
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Quote:
I actually mounted my amp to the back of one of the rear seats in my Orion, that worked very well and didn't really impede storage in the boot.


Yeah, wouldn't want to do that on my five door Scooby. I like the fact that when the boot is empty I can leave the boot cover open to demonstrate to low-lifes that there is nothing in the boot to steal
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#259296 - 29/06/2005 17:20 Re: Scooby amp install [Re: andy]
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3978
Loc: Manchester UK
Quote:
Quote:
I actually mounted my amp to the back of one of the rear seats in my Orion, that worked very well and didn't really impede storage in the boot.


Yeah, wouldn't want to do that on my five door Scooby. I like the fact that when the boot is empty I can leave the boot cover open to demonstrate to low-lifes that there is nothing in the boot to steal


Yes, suppose it isn't a problem in a saloon.
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#259297 - 29/06/2005 20:01 Re: Scooby amp install [Re: andy]
Ezekiel
pooh-bah

Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
I mounted my amps under the driver's seat in my '99 Forester. I put them both on a board covered with that fibrous cloth cover that you apply with contact cement. When it came time to remove them I just unhooked all the wires and took the board out. I never had a heat problem.

-Zeke

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#259298 - 30/06/2005 07:55 Re: Scooby amp install [Re: mlord]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5757
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Quote:
I just used the factory wiring in my 1998 Subaru. Crimped little T-taps into it and left the original factory connector in place for future use. All the wires needed were already present behind the din slot.

Cross-overs (if needed) should already be present on the factory speakers, so don't worry about them.



Thanks.

I've now ordered an amp (Sony XM 444), wiring kit and Subaru-ISO adapter. Hopefully it will all arrive in time and I'll find time to fit it before the 8th, then I can finally celebrate installing an empeg in a car...
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#259299 - 30/06/2005 10:07 Re: Scooby amp install [Re: andy]
frog51
pooh-bah

Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2089
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
Hi Andy,

Just saw your thread - did you look at my install pics here?

Very easy to fit amp under the driver's seat and running wiring is easy through the various ducting provided.
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MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
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#259300 - 30/06/2005 10:14 Re: Scooby amp install [Re: frog51]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5757
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
I hadn't seen those.

So did you run the power cable through with the aircon pipes ? I just took a quick look under the bonnet earlier and identified the aircon pipe, I didn't manage to spot where they emerge under the dash though.
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#259301 - 04/07/2005 08:09 Re: Scooby amp install [Re: andy]
frog51
pooh-bah

Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2089
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
No there is a rubber grommet in the bulkhead quite high up but just reachable from the passenger footwell. All I have through there is power and a lead to my temp sensor in the front skirt.

Pretty easy to feed through - I just used a screwdriver to wedge the grommet open to get the cable end through.
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MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
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#259302 - 04/07/2005 09:07 Re: Scooby amp install [Re: frog51]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5757
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Quote:
No there is a rubber grommet in the bulkhead quite high up but just reachable from the passenger footwell.


Great.

The amp and wiring kit just arrived. Annoyingly the Subaru-ISO adapter has been back ordered. If that doesn't turn up tomorrow I'll have to go and see if Halfords have got one in stock.

The car is being serviced on Wednesday, so that leaves me either tomorrow or Thursday to attempt the install...
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#259303 - 06/07/2005 17:30 Re: Scooby amp install [Re: andy]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5757
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Quote:

The car is being serviced on Wednesday, so that leaves me either tomorrow or Thursday to attempt the install...


The chances of me doing the install before Amersfoort have just dropped to just about zero. They pointed out to me during the service that two of the tyres are just on the borderline between legal and illegal (the fronts have worn badly on the inside shoulders in the last couple of thousand miles and I hadn't noticed). So I'm going to be rushing around tomorrow trying to find and get fitted a complete set of 215/40 ZR17 Goodyear Eagle F1s
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#259304 - 08/07/2005 04:10 Re: Scooby amp install [Re: andy]
frog51
pooh-bah

Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2089
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
I need to get new tyres after the meet, but I think I'll go for Bridgestone SO3 P-zeros. Seem to have a slightly sharper edge when they go, but the grip to that point is epic
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Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
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#259305 - 24/07/2005 16:06 Re: Scooby amp install [Re: andy]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5757
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Quote:
Annoyingly the Subaru-ISO adapter has been back ordered.


So, my Subaru-ISO adapter finally arrived. When it arrived I realised that it looked extremely familiar, a cable with exactly the same connectors already connects the stock Philips headunit to the Subaru loom (unless perhaps the ISO looking end is wired oddly or something).

Anyway, I now have a couple of extra questions.

The adapter has the Subaru loom plug on one end and the two ISO plugs on the other. It is obvious to me that I should plug one of the ISO plugs into the empeg loom.

The other ISO plug has the speaker connections on it. I obviously don't have anything to plug this into. Should I just cut the speaker connections from the ISO plug and splice the outputs from my amp in (so that I am still using the stock speaker cables in the Subaru loom) ?

The other question is regarding the amp remote wire. The wire is present on the adapter, going from the ISO plug to the Subaru one. I obviously need to run that to my amp. I'm guessing I should just cut the wire on the adapter and then crimp it back together with my amp remote wire ?

When I find some time later this week I will have a go at an install, just need a lump of MDF to mount the amp now.
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#259306 - 25/07/2005 09:37 Re: Scooby amp install [Re: andy]
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3978
Loc: Manchester UK
Because the Smart is ISO to start with, I bought the mating connector and soldered the bare ends onto speaker cable coming from the amp, I also had to wire a capacitor in circuit to roll the bass off the tweeters (the smart headunit is bi-amped with active crossovers). I suppose you could just lop the ISO plug off yours as it's only the adaptor, it's not like you're chopping into the factory loom.

As for the remote wire, assuming it's not powering something like an aerial amplifier (or power aerial) then you can just chop it on the adaptor part of the loom and wire it to your amp. To be on the safe side you could just tap a wire off it and use that.
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Andy M

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#259307 - 25/07/2005 10:50 Re: Scooby amp install [Re: andym]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5757
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Great. One last question, when joining speaker wires, amp remote wires etc is it better to solder them or use crimps ? From what I have read on the web some people seem to suggest one and other suggest the other.
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#259308 - 25/07/2005 10:58 Re: Scooby amp install [Re: andy]
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3978
Loc: Manchester UK
I solder simply because I can, a good solder joint is unlikely to break.
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Andy M

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#259309 - 25/07/2005 11:07 Re: Scooby amp install [Re: andy]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 13879
Loc: Canada
I crimp, simply because I have the correct crimping tool, and it's way faster and easier than solding in the car. Most (all?) of the factory wiring in cars is entirely done with crimps, no solder.

That said, I trust a solder joint more than a crimp joint, but rarely have either kind fail.

Clear as flux, eh!

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#259310 - 25/07/2005 17:54 Re: Scooby amp install [Re: mlord]
frog51
pooh-bah

Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2089
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
In a car, because I assume I will need to revert all changes before I sell my car, and because of the typically cramped space, I always crimp.

(and in my latest Scooby, I couldn't find sensible connectors, so just opened up the existing crimps in the ISO connector and recrimped around the extra wires I needed )
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MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
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#259311 - 25/07/2005 18:54 Re: Scooby amp install [Re: frog51]
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3978
Loc: Manchester UK
If the car's equipped with ISO plugs then I've modified the empeg side of the loom, when the car required a adaptor I've modified the adaptor to suit instead. The empeg's been in 3 different cars so far, annoyingly all with different connectors or pinouts.
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Andy M

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#259312 - 18/09/2006 16:52 I have finally installed an empeg [Re: andy]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5757
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
7 years and one month after I received my first empeg, I finally installed an empeg in my Scooby on Friday.

It was a rush job, as I couldn't face a third Euro meet without an empeg installed in the car. I started at 10am and finished at 4pm, as it was my first every car stereo install I thought that was ok.

I cut a few corners, as I was short on time. So the rear speakers aren't connected, the amp is just sitting unsecured under the passenger seat and all the cables need cutting down to length.

I do however have one major problem with the install. The Subaru ISO adapter seems to have some problems. The memory line and ignition line both have a voltage on them when the ignition is off. One has 14 and a bit volts, the other 12 and a bit (I can't remember which was which).

Rory says that his Scooby adapter had the same problem and he had to make some changes to the adapter. He is going to dig out the details of the changes that he made.

I don't know if it caused by this odd wiring, but the empeg exhibits odd behaviour. It will power up, but only runs for 15 seconds or so. After that time it goes to sleep and when you wake it up it comes back with the low battery symbol on. Using the tuner it can survive several minutes before going to sleep.

RobS said he couldn't see how the permenant ignition voltage could cause this behaviour.

If the wiring fixes don't sort things out I'll have to investigate further.
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#259313 - 19/09/2006 09:51 Re: I have finally installed an empeg [Re: andy]
JBjorgen
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3496
Loc: Guadalajara, MX
I would guess that whatever wire the empeg is powered off is not capable of providing enough amperage to keep the empeg running, even if it has the proper voltage. I had the same issue with the empeg boom box I made. Perhaps the wire you're using is meant to be an amp turn-on lead or something.
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#259314 - 19/09/2006 10:43 Re: I have finally installed an empeg [Re: JBjorgen]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5757
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
That sounds like a possibility. That may well have been what RobS was trying to explain to me on Sunday night.

I probably didn't understand what he was saying because:

- I was drunk
- I was being distracted by large amounts of Chinese food
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#259315 - 19/09/2006 17:21 Re: I have finally installed an empeg [Re: JBjorgen]
julf
veteran

Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1295
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Quote:
I would guess that whatever wire the empeg is powered off is not capable of providing enough amperage to keep the empeg running, even if it has the proper voltage.

We had that problem with the pinkie due to long cables and very thin power connectors on the land rover SIIA panel auxillary light plugs.

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#259316 - 20/09/2006 05:17 Re: I have finally installed an empeg [Re: JBjorgen]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5757
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
I've gone back and had a good look at how it is all wired. The OEM Philips headunit that comes with the car is connected via its own Subaru-ISO adapter.

I have checked the wiring on that adapter with the wiring on the new adapter that I am using. The wiring for the memory and ignition lines are the same on both.

So three questions:

- is it really likely that the same wires that could supply enough current for the Philips headunit (complete with four channel amp) don't have enough to supply the empeg
- why do both memory and ignition both have a voltage when the ignition is off (the Philips headunit does not operate when the ignition is off), surely that is going to cause me problems even when I sort out the current draw issue
- which line does the empeg draw its power from when it is awake and running

I guess what I really need to do is run a line temporarily from my amp for the memory line, to see if that works any better. The other thing I will do is to try connecting the empeg via the original Subaru-ISO adapter, just in case there is something subtle and non-obvious wrong with the new adapter.
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#259317 - 20/09/2006 11:11 Re: I have finally installed an empeg [Re: andy]
JBjorgen
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3496
Loc: Guadalajara, MX
Quote:
why do both memory and ignition both have a voltage when the ignition is off?

I don't know, but you can use a VOM to find a switched circuit in the fuse box, then use a fuse tap to run a line to your empeg.
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#259318 - 20/09/2006 13:13 Re: I have finally installed an empeg [Re: JBjorgen]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5757
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
I worked out why the switched ignition looked like it wasn't working. I was measuring it after switching off the ignition, with no load on it.

When I connect one of the headunits and measure the ignition voltage does fall when I turn off the ignition (though it takes many seconds to reach anywhere near zero volts).
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#259319 - 20/09/2006 13:19 I have worked out what is causing it, just don't know why [Re: andy]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5757
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
I've worked out what was causing the low battery issue, though I don't understand why it caused it.

I have Hijack installed, not a particularly recent version. I have been using the Hijack screen blanking functionality, set to turn the screen off and examining 95% of the screen. I was using this in one of Mark's docks.

The Hijack timeout was set to 15 seconds, just about the length of time that the empeg was surviving for before dying.

When I disable the Hijack screen blanker the problem goes away. The player no longer suffers with the low battery turn off. Yippee !

What I don't understand is why it caused this to happen. I know that the amp remote line is turned off when the empeg screen is turned off, but I don't see why this would kick the empeg into a low battery state ?

Right, next step, get the tuner working...
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