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#261416 - 08/08/2005 13:03 Re: Godspeed Discovery [Re: tonyc]
Tim
veteran

Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1522
Loc: Arizona
Quote:
Does anyone know what NASA's plans are 5-10 years down the road in terms of manned spaceflight? I know the shuttle program is nearing its end, but I haven't heard about anything replacing it.


There is currently a competition going on between the companies behind the USA. From what I remember, it is to design a safe, cheap, reusable, passenger carrying vehicle.

OK, found a blurb on it. Currently, it is a competition for the preliminary design of the Crew Exploration Vehicle (CEV). Northrop Grumman and Boeing are teaming up for the competition. Lockheed Martin does not have a partner for it that I could find. From a news release on 13 Jul 2005:

Quote:
NASA Tuesday authorized two eight-month contracts, one to Lockheed Martin and the other to the team of Northrop Grumman and Boeing, to support a July 2006 review of the engineering systems for the agency's new Crew Exploration Vehicle. Each contract is worth approximately $28 million.

During this contract period, in addition to performing sustained engineering in support of the CEV review, the contractors will continue to develop designs for NASA's next-generation vehicle for human spaceflight and demonstrate ability to manage cost, schedule and risk.

Results of NASA's Exploration Systems Architectural Study, which defines parameters for the new vehicle to replace the space shuttle, will be incorporated into a "call for improvements" to be released later this year, inviting proposals from the selected contractors. These proposals will be evaluated for the final selection of a single CEV contractor.

Originally, the selection of a single industry team was planned for 2008, but to reduce or eliminate the time between the shuttle's retirement in 2010 and the first CEV flight, the selection is now planned for early 2006.

The CEV is expected to carry up to six astronauts beyond low-Earth orbit soon after the shuttle's retirement, and then on to the moon as early as 2015. The CEV is a key element of the United States' Vision for Space Exploration, which returns human explorers to the moon, Mars and beyond.


- Tim

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#261417 - 08/08/2005 13:28 Re: Godspeed Discovery [Re: Tim]
pgrzelak
carpal tunnel

Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
It seems that the last line of that excerpt was tacked on so that their funding would not be reallocated after W decided he wanted us to go to Mars.
_________________________
Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs

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#261418 - 08/08/2005 15:00 Re: Godspeed Discovery [Re: pgrzelak]
Tim
veteran

Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1522
Loc: Arizona
One of the proposals was that the CEV would be able to make it to Mars (as opposed to the moon-launched transport). That is probably the reason for that last line. Of course, just posturing wouldn't surprise me either.

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#261419 - 08/08/2005 15:40 Re: Godspeed Discovery [Re: pgrzelak]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Quote:
It seems that the last line of that excerpt was tacked on so that their funding would not be reallocated after W decided he wanted us to go to Mars.

Exactly. The currently planned CEV is little more than soupped up Apollo (BTW, not only parts, but tooling for Saturn V have been destroyed; I am not sure for blueprints). There were some noises that CEV could end up as a lifting body after all (and, hopefully, hence test with Rutan's White Knight dropping X-37; I am not holding my breath, though, because X-37 is now DARPA's project, not NASA's).

In the meantime, NASA cancelled X-38 CRV 'ISS lifeboat' just when it passed high altitude drop tests and was ready for re-entry from the orbit test. It could have relatively easily been upgraded to 'ISS Crew Transportation Vehicle' (leaving heavy lifting to unmanned missions). They gave up on 'VentureStar' SSTO because of hydrogen tank problems. Those problems have been solved in the meantime, but nobody talks about SSTO (or anything meaningfully reusable) any more. Some two decades ago there was a grandiose NASP SSTO project that consumed prety enormous funds, and was abandoned. Now, when aerospike 'conventional' engines, as well as hypersonic SCRAM ones have been successfully demonstrated, mentioning SSTO is a recipe for being kicked out of NASA planning bodies.

I am affraid that Dubya's new 'vision' of return to the Moon and then Mars is just for show. I don't see anything like NASA in the wake of Kennedy's "We choose to go to the Moon!". It was focused, it had "can do" mentality. Some collosal blunders were done (like Apollo 1), but also spectacular successes (11 and, perhaps even more, 13). When today's NASA guys saw that fateful piece of foam hitting the wing leading edge, they firmly burried their heads into sand (e.g. first asking, but then quickly cancelling request that spy guys use telescopes on their birds to look into the state of the orbiter). Apollo era NASA would try to do something: in-orbit repair, launch another shuttle, ask Russians to launch a Progress or Soyuz with oxigen and water to buy some time, something. Perhaps those seven people would die anyway (they probably would), but they would have died fighting.

Sigh...
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#261420 - 08/08/2005 16:32 Re: Godspeed Discovery [Re: bonzi]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Quote:
The currently planned CEV is little more than soupped up Apollo


For getting people into and out of space, Apollo was much cheeper then the Shuttle missions. The early designed shuttles probably could have been cheeper and able to do more space exploration, but the military pretty much mandated certain things about the shuttle design so we could launch missles from space and such. Of course there has never been a real military use for the shuttle, (and would have likely been impractical), but the damage was done.

I just can't imagine "The Russians launched nukes, quick, send the shuttle up!" working well, when it still takes a decent amount of time to just wheel the shuttle to the launch pad.

At least the new CEV is back to pure space use. Seeing a CG video of proposed uses, it even still does the trick of detaching from a part, turning around, and picking up cargo for the lunar surface with the nose.

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#261421 - 08/08/2005 17:07 Re: Godspeed Discovery [Re: bonzi]
Tim
veteran

Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1522
Loc: Arizona
Quote:
When today's NASA guys saw that fateful piece of foam hitting the wing leading edge, they firmly burried their heads into sand (e.g. first asking, but then quickly cancelling request that spy guys use telescopes on their birds to look into the state of the orbiter).


Your account of what happened is woefully inadequate. The people who 'saw' the foam hit the orbiter did everything they could to get the damage inspected. It was the management that was the roadblock. Grouping everybody that was involved under the 'NASA guys' label is an unfair characterization of people that did their damnest to bring their collegues and friends back home safely.

Quote:
Apollo era NASA would try to do something: in-orbit repair, launch another shuttle, ask Russians to launch a Progress or Soyuz with oxigen and water to buy some time, something. Perhaps those seven people would die anyway (they probably would), but they would have died fighting.


The major difference is political attitudes and budget. Apollo era didn't have nearly the pressure (from a budget standpoint) that they do today. That was one of the reasons the requests were denied. In retrospect, I'm sure every manager involved wishes they could redo what happened. The problem was, the data available and past experience did not conclusively point to a total vehicle loss. The management made a decision (a very wrong one) that they were forced to based on those boundary conditions.

- Tim

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#261422 - 08/08/2005 22:21 Re: Godspeed Discovery [Re: Tim]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Quote:
Your account of what happened is woefully inadequate. The people who 'saw' the foam hit the orbiter did everything they could to get the damage inspected. It was the management that was the roadblock. Grouping everybody that was involved under the 'NASA guys' label is an unfair characterization of people that did their damnest to bring their collegues and friends back home safely.

I agree, I have indeed not been fair. In NASA "rank and file" the original spirit probably still lives (as it did in Challenger times, when many engineers fought in vain gainst "well, it worked so far" attitude towards inadequate SRB design).

Quote:
The major difference is political attitudes and budget. Apollo era didn't have nearly the pressure (from a budget standpoint) that they do today. That was one of the reasons the requests were denied. In retrospect, I'm sure every manager involved wishes they could redo what happened. The problem was, the data available and past experience did not conclusively point to a total vehicle loss. The management made a decision (a very wrong one) that they were forced to based on those boundary conditions.

How conclusive must data pointing to a total vehicle loss be before heads are pulled from the sand? This is a replay of Challenger case - it was well known that O-rings were being partially burned through on virtually every flight, and some bogus statistics was being used as excuse for doing nothing. Budgetary constraints? How much loss of vehicle and two years of fleet grounding cost compared to fixing an obvious problem? And now, they are overcautious over every detail, but the problem that brought Columbia down is still there...

After Columbia accident one of the program managers (the one who conducted first press conferences, I forgot the name and position) more or less admitted that they were not looking very closely into leading edge RCC damage, because even if they found it, there was nothing they could do. Quite a defetist thinking...
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#261423 - 09/08/2005 10:16 Wheels stop. [Re: oliver]
pgrzelak
carpal tunnel

Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
_________________________
Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs

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#261424 - 09/08/2005 11:24 Re: Godspeed Discovery [Re: Tim]
Tim
veteran

Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1522
Loc: Arizona
There was a CEV Article in the San Francisco Chronicle on Sunday. It has more information than the press release I posted.

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#261425 - 09/08/2005 11:37 Re: Godspeed Discovery [Re: bonzi]
Tim
veteran

Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1522
Loc: Arizona
Quote:
How much loss of vehicle and two years of fleet grounding cost compared to fixing an obvious problem? And now, they are overcautious over every detail, but the problem that brought Columbia down is still there...


What is obvious now was not obvious in the past. They knew something wasn't right, but the consequences weren't known. So they took steps to minimize them, and eventually it bit them. Its easy to say something is obvious after a 28 month investigation leading to a 248 page report (for volume one - volumes two through six add on to it).

As for the problem still existing, the plant (Michoud Assembly Facility) that is responsible for the foam, is in the process of getting it's ass kicked. There was an article about how pissed NASA is at them a few days ago, but I can't find the link. I did find a CNN article that alludes to it, though.

Edit: Misspelled a word
- Tim


Edited by Tim (09/08/2005 12:40)

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#261426 - 01/07/2006 15:06 Re: Godspeed Discovery [Re: oliver]
oliver
addict

Registered: 02/04/2002
Posts: 691
Let's all hope for another safe flight, and hopefully we'll get some good weather and no more foam or bird debris hitting the shuttle.
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