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#262560 - 11/08/2005 11:07 High blood pressure: solutions please
CrackersMcCheese
pooh-bah

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
I'm getting desperate My girlfriend has really really high blood pressure and has had so for a few years (shes 25). I don't understand it - she eats well, exercises, is young, doesn't smoke, doesn't drink excessively etc. She has a stressful job but I don't think that would result in chronic high blood pressure. And its HIGH.

Of course she's been to the doctor and hospital for checks and all is fine they say. They scanned her kidneys and put her on a BP monitor for 24 hours but so far theres no solutions or reasosn for it. Shes reluctant to go on medication as this may make it difficult to have children (correct?) and is looking for any way at all - no matter how crazy it may seem - to lower her blood pressure. Anyone have any advice or help? Like I say we're getting desperate and its getting her down.

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#262561 - 11/08/2005 11:27 Re: High blood pressure: solutions please [Re: CrackersMcCheese]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Quote:
Shes reluctant to go on medication as this may make it difficult to have children (correct?)
I'd check this out with a fertility specialist. My wife is on a TON of drugs for her back pain, and it turns out only one of them is really potentially problematic for child birth (and even that one only rates as "ptential" because they don't have enough data for it yet). I don't really have anything to help with the blood pressure issue, but I just wanted to chime in that some of my assumptions about what drugs are bad for child birth ended up being incorrect after I spoke to a fertility specialist.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#262562 - 11/08/2005 11:42 Re: High blood pressure: solutions please [Re: JeffS]
pgrzelak
carpal tunnel

Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
As for the HBP, a stressful job can be a significant factor in blood pressure. This is not a myth. I know a number of people who have had their blood pressure drop (to the point of no longer needing medication) on leaving a very stressful job. Stress is a major factor, along with genetics, weight, activity levels and smoking.

As to medication, I have been on high blood pressure medication for years. I am not personally aware of any fertility issues with blood pressure medication. In fact, many of the initial treatments involve diuretics as the first step before going into anything even remotely heart related. Many "borderline" cases can be treated with just diurectics alone.

Now, depending on how high "HIGH" is, she should certainly get it under control even before considering having children. High blood pressure, especially if it is really high, is a risk factor for stroke and puts a major stress on all of the internal organs, especially the kidneys. While it might not cause immediate damage, really high pressure is a serious consideration (maybe risk?) for her and for any children should would carry. The unchecked pressure may be a greater risk than the medication to treat it.

Note: I am not a doctor. Depending on the pressure level, this should be brought under control as soon as possible. I am going with the assumption that borderline is above 130/85, high is 140/90, HIGH is 150/anything or anything/100, based on what I know of / have read about HBP.
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Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs

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#262563 - 11/08/2005 12:01 Re: High blood pressure: solutions please [Re: pgrzelak]
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
Is she on the pill? From what I've read over the years that seems to be a major cause of high blood pressure in young, otherwise healthy women.

My blood pressure used to be quite high until recently because I was severely overweight (23 stone +), I'm still on the chunky side (19 stone) but I'm looking to reduce that even further. As I started to lose weight my blood pressure went down.
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Andy M

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#262564 - 11/08/2005 12:39 Re: High blood pressure: solutions please [Re: andym]
CrackersMcCheese
pooh-bah

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
She is on the pill but she was taken off it to see if it lowered the pressure. It didn't though.

When I say high I mean that one reading was 180/100

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#262565 - 11/08/2005 13:04 Re: High blood pressure: solutions please [Re: CrackersMcCheese]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
Pregnancy and high blood pressure don't mix well. I've had pregnant friends in that situation. They were confined to nine months of bed rest by their doctor. She certainly needs to address the high blood pressure as part of any sort of plan involving children. Not that I have any particular advice on how to address the high blood pressure...

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#262566 - 11/08/2005 13:08 Re: High blood pressure: solutions please [Re: DWallach]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Yeah, high bloody pressure was what caused my niece to be born 11 weeks prematurely. Thankfully she has now passed her original predicted birth date and is doing well.
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#262567 - 11/08/2005 13:15 Re: High blood pressure: solutions please [Re: DWallach]
pgrzelak
carpal tunnel

Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
Um... Wow... Four comments:

a) Does she get "white coat syndrome"? Get really nervous while in the doctor's office or when getting her pressure checked? You might want to verify that result with a home reading or in a relaxed environment. Did the 24 hour pressure monitor show any changes over time?

b) Does her pressure go down over the weekend or when on vacation? This would be a sign that the job is a major factor in the pressure.

c) Does she have a family history of really high pressure?

d) I really think professional medication would be really a good idea at this point!!!
_________________________
Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs

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#262568 - 11/08/2005 13:46 Re: High blood pressure: solutions please [Re: CrackersMcCheese]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
I'm sorry to hear about your situation. I just wanted to chime in and also say that I've always been confused as to what causes high blood pressure. I knew a girl in college who had to go on medication, even though she's very fit (wanted to be a kinesiology major), and is a vegetarian who eats well.

I, on the other hand, eat terribly (I stopped at Dunkin' Donuts this morning), I'm overweight, and my grand father died in his 40's from a heart attack due to high blood pressure. I, on the other hand, am apparently just slightly over what I should be, but nothing to be concerned about.

I just don't get it.
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Matt

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#262569 - 11/08/2005 14:29 Re: High blood pressure: solutions please [Re: CrackersMcCheese]
Foz
member

Registered: 24/10/2000
Posts: 106
Loc: San Jose, CA
Ok, it sounds hokey... but MEDITATION.

Yes, it can really lower your blood pressure pretty significantly if you really practice at it. I'm not talking standing around chanting "ohm ohm ohm" over and over, but putting herself in a quiet place, clearing her mind, concentrating on her breathing and letting herself drift. It's a hell of a lot harder than it sounds, we're really not very good at completely letting go of things even for a short time so it will take a lot of practice. Talk to some practicioners (my best friend is a Buddhist, he meditates frequently, might want to make friends with a few Buddhists and pick up some pointers).

Also, I completely agree on the stress. Stress can *kill* you and that's not an understatement. Three years ago I got laid off, lost a ton of money on stocks when the dot.com crash hit, found out my newlywed wife was cheating on me (and divorced her), lost my house, and lost nearly all my friends when they also got laid off and moved away. The stress from all that damn near took me out. I had to use every trick in the book to get back in control of myself. Stress is a scary thing and it doesn't have to all pile up on you at once. It's a cumulative thing.

Don't underestimate the stress at her work, or the stress she might be having in her personal life. Worrying about whether her current condition is going to affect her fertitlity is an ADDITIONAL source of stress, and it can all pile up from many different places that you wouldn't think to suspect. My recommendation is to have her see a fertility specialist like someone suggested (which could help eliminate some of her worries), take some medication, meditate a couple of times a week for 30 mins or so at a time and see a counselor. The counselor might help her ferret out other sources of stress in her life.

That's my two cents worth anyway.

-- Gary F.
_________________________
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#262570 - 11/08/2005 18:24 Re: High blood pressure: solutions please [Re: CrackersMcCheese]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Your girlfriend should do something about this now! 180/100 is extremely high for a young girl. HBP is relativaly often what physicians here call 'essential' - that is, without known cause. Probably just a bug in regulatory machansm.

I am on various blood-pressure control drugs for almost 30 years now (currently on a cocktail of a calcium channel blocker, an ACE inhibitor and a diuretic; my cardiologist tries different things every few years), and I don't believe I have exparienced any side effects. I have never heard of HBP treatment being a couterindication for pregnancy (but, as others noted, the pressure itself might be). One reson more to bring it under control.

It has been reported that several quite conclusive controlled experiments had shown it possible to control one's blood pressure via bio-feedback - it seems that we have more control over our autonomous nervous system than we know. Meditation Gary mentions might fit in similar category, or it just lowers the level of stress and anxiety. I personally never had patience to try neither, which is unfortunate.

Chances are that your girlfriend will be with this for life; this is not such a big deal, as long as she controls it, by any means that suits her best. Good luck and don't worry too much.

Edit: It seems that ACE inhibitors and calcium channel blockers might indeed be dangerous during pregnacy (I shold take care not to get pregnant ), but there are several other classes of antihypretensive drugs (diuretics and beta-blockers) that seems to be safe. Hey, let the lady consult her general practicioner, cardiologists or gynecologist - that's what they are for!


Edited by bonzi (11/08/2005 18:36)
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Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Q#5196 MkII #080000376, 18GB green MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue

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#262571 - 11/08/2005 20:26 Re: High blood pressure: solutions please [Re: CrackersMcCheese]
SE_Sport_Driver
carpal tunnel

Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
It looks liike you're getting a lot of advice here, but I thought I'd chime in with my experiences too...

I had high blood pressure (can't remember the number) and was given a month to get it down without medication. I eliminated all cafeine and salt from my diet the very next day and met with my doctor weekly to see if it helped. After two months, there was still no change so I was given medication which helped right away.

At the time, STRESS was the main cause of my HBP. I was only 27 at the time. Once I changed a few things in my life and concentrated on things that were important to me - my marriage mainly - I stopped taking the medication. I just "knew" the stress was gone. It was the best feeling in the world. On my next check up, my blood pressure was fine.

So, I guess I'm tossing a vote in for taking medication until she can rearrange things in her life to be less stressful. You said she'd try almost "anything" and I'd consider a new work environment. No one ever sits on their death bed at the age of 100 wishing they had spent more time at work.

Like some have suggested, have her test her blood pressure after a week off of work. That may indicate if the job is the real cause (assuming she let herself forget about work for that week) or if the stress is something else she hasn't shared yet.
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Brad B.

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#262572 - 11/08/2005 20:38 Re: High blood pressure: solutions please [Re: CrackersMcCheese]
Laura
pooh-bah

Registered: 16/06/2000
Posts: 1682
Loc: Greenhills, Ohio
When I was in my 20's I also had high blood pressure which they thought was caused by taking the pill. I went off of it and my pressure never lowered. I have been on medication for over 20 years now and high blood pressure is nothing to mess around with. She should get on medication for it right away if the doctors think she should. Being overweight, caffeine, stress, eating salt, smoking, and the list goes on what can cause it. Taking care of her own health now should come before considering having children.
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Laura

MKI #017/90

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#262573 - 11/08/2005 22:50 Re: High blood pressure: solutions please [Re: CrackersMcCheese]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
Shes reluctant to go on medication as this may make it difficult to have children

Blood pressure that high (180/100) is not something to procrastinate with. Forget the children. I don't wish to sound melodramatic here, but if she does not get it under control, she may not live long enough to have children.

There are many factors that cause high blood pressure, many of them (most of them, perhaps?) beyond the control of the individual: genetics plays a big part, or perhaps there is just something not quite right in the part of the brain that regulates blood pressure.

Don't mess around with this. Get her on medication now.

tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

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#262574 - 12/08/2005 10:01 Re: High blood pressure: solutions please [Re: tanstaafl.]
CrackersMcCheese
pooh-bah

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
Thanks guys. Yeah I really want her to go on medication as I'd like her to be around to look after me when I'm a doddery old man. Seriously though I will have a talk with her to see if I can go to the doctors with her to discuss our options. Yes... her health comes first and then consider children is the best and only way. I'll post to when I have news of normal pressure. Thanks again.

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#262575 - 12/08/2005 11:57 Re: High blood pressure: solutions please [Re: CrackersMcCheese]
larry818
old hand

Registered: 01/10/2002
Posts: 1039
Loc: Fullerton, Calif.
I dated a Chinese woman from Vietnam at one time who's lower BP number was 170. The upper was 200 something. She's in her late 40s now and aside from the doctors freaking out when they take her BP, she's never had any health problems. She refuses to do anything about it, too.

I think you should look at diet before commiting to drugs for the rest of her life. I think this is the great problem with western medicine, they almost never consider any course but drugs and surgery. My mom was put on some drug for HBP and in a year's time, she was on seven more, each an attempt to counteract the side effects of the one before. She was feeling sick all the time from it. I convinced her to stop the drugs and eat a non fat diet, which she did (for a while), felt better, and the BP went down.

Check out a diet course by a Dr. McDougal. Essentially, it's a 0 fat diet. I was on it for years (until I got married) and would prefer to still be on it.

Eating good means different things to different folks. It seems a lot of modern ailments are caused by diet, and diet is almost always ignored by western medicine.

Good luck!

L

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#262576 - 12/08/2005 13:51 Re: High blood pressure: solutions please [Re: larry818]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Quote:
I dated a Chinese woman from Vietnam at one time who's lower BP number was 170. The upper was 200 something. She's in her late 40s now and aside from the doctors freaking out when they take her BP, she's never had any health problems. She refuses to do anything about it, too.

HBP rarely kills before the victim is past 40; that's why it has not been weeded out of the gene pool. Using isolated counterexample as an excuse to do nothing about a medical condition (I know you are not proposing doing nothing) is a very bad idea. Use statistics instead.

Quote:
I think you should look at diet before commiting to drugs for the rest of her life. I think this is the great problem with western medicine, they almost never consider any course but drugs and surgery. My mom was put on some drug for HBP and in a year's time, she was on seven more, each an attempt to counteract the side effects of the one before. She was feeling sick all the time from it. I convinced her to stop the drugs and eat a non fat diet, which she did (for a while), felt better, and the BP went down.

Side effects are very individual; I never had any, but I know people with serious HBP who searched for appropriate therapy for years. I also knew a guy who was so 'accustomed' to his high pressure that 'normalizing' it left him groggy and sleepy all the time. He decided (in consultation with his cardiologist) he prefered to forgo any treatment for a while, but then managed to lower his pressure somewhat gradually and get used to that level.

Any physician will tell you to lower your stress level and intake of salt, caffeine and alcohol first, carefully increase the level of physical activity, lose weight etc. That might or might not work. As I said before, one might also try biofeedback, meditation, acupuncture... Some of these have well documented success record, some only anecdotal.

'Non-western' medicine(s) also used drugs they were able to prepare. For exemple, first antimalaric (quinine) and anti-inflamatory drug (aspirin, or acetylsalicylic acid, derived from willow bark) were 'traditional' treatments. Though, they were usually accompanied by hundreds of others with no therapeutic value (except as placebo).

Quote:
Check out a diet course by a Dr. McDougal. Essentially, it's a 0 fat diet. I was on it for years (until I got married) and would prefer to still be on it.

Well, I am sceptical (what is the right preposition here? 'of'?) any '0 anything' diets. That said, it is pretty clear that we eat much more fat than we evolved for; only few hundred years ago it was very difficult to obtain much fat of any kind in food. (Again, there are exceptions, like people living in polar regions... Sigh, life is complicated!)

Quote:
Eating good means different things to different folks. It seems a lot of modern ailments are caused by diet, and diet is almost always ignored by western medicine.

While I agree with the first statement (for example, there are people capable of saying 'vegeterian' and 'natural' in the same sentence ), I would not say we ignore diet. On the contrary, enourmous industry is built around it. You might be right that it often just masquerades as having anything to do with medicine or indeed health. (Besides, my physician does keep pestering me about losing weight and does not suggest any drugs for that )
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Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Q#5196 MkII #080000376, 18GB green MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue

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#262577 - 12/08/2005 14:38 Re: High blood pressure: solutions please [Re: bonzi]
larry818
old hand

Registered: 01/10/2002
Posts: 1039
Loc: Fullerton, Calif.
Quote:
HBP rarely kills before the victim is past 40; that's why it has not been weeded out of the gene pool. Using isolated counterexample as an excuse to do nothing about a medical condition (I know you are not proposing doing nothing) is a very bad idea. Use statistics instead.


Oh, I'm not advocating doing nothing. I'm just relating a scary story. I quit dating her 'cos I thought she wouldn't live to 50. And she was boring.

Quote:
Side effects are very individual; I never had any, but I know people with serious HBP who searched for appropriate therapy for years.


My point is that doctors tend to do what's easiest for them, and that's prescribe drugs. I know way too many older folks that are taking a lot of pills, and mostly to counteract side effect of other pills. I think this practice is insane, and yet, very common. Diet was never suggested to my mom as a way to control HBP.

But then, maybe the doctors know their audience. She didn't stick with the diet for long. Now she's back on the HBP drugs, but not accepting any others. At least some progress was made.

Quote:
Any physician will tell you to lower your stress level and intake of salt, caffeine and alcohol first, carefully increase the level of physical activity, lose weight etc.


This is probably why I'm so healthy. My BP is on the low side of normal, despite coming from a family of HBP folks and bein' 50 pounds overweight. I eat fairly low fat, not much salt, work at home with my two babies so no stress, and walk six miles a day. It works for me.

Now only to lose some weight. That will catch up with me someday.

Quote:
'Non-western' medicine(s) also used drugs they were able to prepare.


By "western" I meant the "throw drugs at it" mentality. Most non-western cultures eat a much healthier diet than we do, and don't have the same diet related problems.

My wife moved here from Taiwan. I took her shopping at Costco, and she saw and entire shelving rack devoted to Metamucil and it's like. She asked me "Is this really such a big problem here?"

Quote:
Well, I am skeptical (what is the right preposition here? 'of'?) any '0 anything' diets. That said, it is pretty clear that we eat much more fat than we evolved for; only few hundred years ago it was very difficult to obtain much fat of any kind in food.


Actually, he doesn't advocate the fanatical avoidance of fat, but to use it as a treat, rather than the main course. I looked at it more like, what would I eat if I were in the wild? Probably not hamburgers every day. Vegetables are much easier to catch.

When I was on that diet for a few months, any fat would actually make me feel sick, so it was easy to avoid.

It's almost impossible to dine out and find non-fat stuff, tho.

Quote:
Besides, my physician does keep pestering me about losing weight and does not suggest any drugs for that )


Mine does too, but only in passing, as anything they can think to check me for is already good. I've assiduously avoided having any brain function tested, however.

Anyway, I only wanted to say be careful to taking drugs forever, if there is a better way.

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#262578 - 12/08/2005 15:25 Re: High blood pressure: solutions please [Re: larry818]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Well, we agree, then
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Q#5196 MkII #080000376, 18GB green MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue

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#262579 - 15/08/2005 20:48 Re: High blood pressure: solutions please [Re: CrackersMcCheese]
pgrzelak
carpal tunnel

Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
Any news / updates?
_________________________
Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs

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#262580 - 16/08/2005 02:07 Re: High blood pressure: solutions please [Re: CrackersMcCheese]
kayakjazz
member

Registered: 10/09/2004
Posts: 127
Loc: Bay Area, CA/Anchorage, AK
Just to chime in on the high BP/pregnancy connection: with a pregnancy the dangers of toxemia or pre-eclamsia are associated with high BP; I have a younger brother with cerebral palsy to demonstrate it. In our case, its familial; maternal grandfather and uncle had cerebral hemhorrages and died in their mid-40's; both brothers, both underwieight and active, had high BP by 20; I made it to my 30's before starting meds...which work fine and don't have discernable side-effects. Just want to echo everyone else; It's nothing to mess with! Does significant cardiovascular damage over time that doctors often don't pick up until you're already in trouble as well...

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#262581 - 28/08/2005 19:46 Re: High blood pressure: solutions please [Re: CrackersMcCheese]
schofiel
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
You might try something called C12 Peptide, a natural remedy that performs an enzyme-inhibit to reduce blood pressure. You could try the Nutri centre for this (www.nutricentre.com). You should really be considering conventional medicine though: high bp can cause pre-eclampsia during pregnancy, life threatening to both mother and child. She also risks strokes (ask Mike Tempsch about that - boy, was he lucky), cranial aneurysms (almost guaranteed death - my neighbour in NL simply fell flat on her face in the garden as I walked past her. She survived, but she's in a wheel chair). Sorry to be gloomy, but DON'T wait, the longer you leave it the greater the risk. This is a major problem.

Has she had a cranial MRI scan?
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#262582 - 29/08/2005 12:37 Re: High blood pressure: solutions please [Re: schofiel]
mtempsch
pooh-bah

Registered: 02/06/2000
Posts: 1996
Loc: Gothenburg, Sweden
Quote:
he also risks strokes (ask Mike Tempsch about that - boy, was he lucky)


So they say - and the rational part of me knows it as well, just don't feel all that lucky...

Bleedings vary in danger depending on how large a vessel broke and where it's located - one big lottery.
Intracerebral (as for me) is probably worst if near the brain stem, as involontary lifesupport functions may be affected. IIRC, bleedings in the surrounding membranes tend to be from larger vessels...

BP measured as I arrived at the hospital was in the 210/180 region - no idea what my normal level was as I hadn't had a checkup in a loong time. With medication I'm currently around 115/75, no sideeffects that I've noticed.

Back at work 3x4h per week since 2 weeks. Not really working - have tasks but initially no pressure of deadlines etc, doing stuff of the "it would be nice if..." type, and then using that to evaluate my usefulness/capacity.

Don't know why I've missed the hread previously - denial? - but good advice has been given. Do get that BP under control - the potential consequences are seriously unfun.
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/Michael

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#262583 - 29/08/2005 19:21 Re: High blood pressure: solutions please [Re: mtempsch]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
From 210/180 to 115/75 without dizzyness, drowsyness, vertigo? Amazing!

Anyway, it's great to hear you are back to work.
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Q#5196 MkII #080000376, 18GB green MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue

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#262584 - 30/08/2005 09:42 Re: High blood pressure: solutions please [Re: bonzi]
mtempsch
pooh-bah

Registered: 02/06/2000
Posts: 1996
Loc: Gothenburg, Sweden
Quote:
From 210/180 to 115/75 without dizzyness, drowsyness, vertigo? Amazing!


Well, during the initial phase I was in bed anway, but at the time I was released from live-in rehab (end of January) I had some side effects: hands and feet felt cold, dizzyness when standing up from rest, but at that time the BP was even lower, around 50-55/100, when resting, but that went away after a month or two.

Quote:
Anyway, it's great to hear you are back to work.

It does feel good to have some structure to the weeks.
_________________________
/Michael

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