#268949 - 08/11/2005 19:30
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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What I meant was that for THIS term his attitude toward Iraq was in plain view.
While you're right, I think you underestimate the stupidity of the American populace. It would seem that around the election most people still thought that Iraq had something to do with 9/11, despite a preponderance of evidence that it did not. I think that the word has finally spread to all the shortbussers out there.
Or, more likely, the (by comparison) minute devastation of New Orleans is more important. Or more reported.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#268950 - 08/11/2005 22:13
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: wfaulk]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
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Since we're well off on a tangent, my tinfoil hat (yet most likely true) opinion:
Iraq: the main reason Bush took the US into Iraq was to destabilize the oil market. The beautiful thing about oil is uncertaintly makes the profits higher. The news media dismissed the people who said we were 'going into Iraq to steal their oil' as simpletons, but the beautiful thing is you don't have to steal it, you just need to make the output unstable and voila, profit! Not only in increased oil prices but in all the government contracts fighting the war. Profits coming and going.
Second - Katrina was a blessing for the oil industry. Already having insufficient refining capacity due to years of willful under-building refining capacity, the disaster leaves you a great excuse to drag your feet fixing the damaged refineries. Meanwhile, prices rise & stay high.
I don't think Bush had an exit strategy because not having one is good for the family business.
Revenge on the guy who tried to kill Dad, that's just icing on the cake.
Ok time to go home.
-Zeke
_________________________
WWFSMD?
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#268952 - 09/11/2005 02:16
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: BartDG]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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I can easily see this happening in Belgium as well. More specific in cities like Antwerp and/or Brussels where also a lot of immigrants live. There already have been some small riots in the past few nights, as per France's example. (on a -for now at least- smaller scale)
I watched NBC network news this evening and they showed a map of France with red icons for every major affected city and then listed the number of affected towns at 200+. Pretty impressive. I mean, France isn't the biggest country in the world but it is pretty big.
Yes, I have had to wonder about the other countries I have visited or spent some time (NL,BE,DE,ES,IT,GB) -- why not there? Yes, mostly I would like those of us here in the US to feel a little more sympathy rather than have feelings of some weird vindication regarding France and its current situation.
I will say that I still scratch my head a bit about France and its situation. I mean, there is a *lot* that I appreciate and enjoy and I hope to visit again soon. Other things strike me as odd. I was in Perpignan for a weekend in early June and there was a very large contingent of riot police -- 300 or 400 cops with about 40 vans/lorries -- just hanging around in the city center on a Saturday afternoon. No riot in sight. These were "CRS", national riot police. Does any other country have this? Anyhow, what has struck me is that France, with a fairly centralized government/administration, seems to run the risk of what has become popular to call a "monoculture". So perhaps a higher risk that riotous demonstrations and violence should break out across such a big country.
I don't know. Too bad. But 40 percent unemployment (if I am to believe the interviews) in minority communities isn't heading anywhere good.
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#268953 - 09/11/2005 02:30
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Oh, I've no doubt. I’m not crazy about Bush and haven’t been for a while, but I’m certain if I were in your shoes I’d be completely ticked off. Because you live in a country that has by majority endorsed a candidate and policy you despise. I get that- but the system is working, just not in your favor. Fortunately for you, it looks like the majority of the country is agreeing with you now, which means you might be able to rectify the situation in just a few short years.
Jeff, I am going to say that I find some of what you are saying a little bizarre. "If I were in your shoes"..."just not in your favor". Dang, I would have sworn that you were in our shoes and we in yours. What to make of this? I don't know. If I were waiting for Armaggedon, I could see it -- Who cares about shoes when the Rapture is moments away?
But 5 or 10 years from now you *do* plan on being on the planet with the rest of us, don't you?
You think the system is working and I find your opinion pretty surprising.
OK, you have spent a lot of time hemming and hawing about "I'm not crazy about Bush" and such like, but help me out on the whole "shoes" thing:
Knowing everything that you do know now....
Wind the clock back to November 2004 and vote: Bush or Kerry?
Wind the clock back to November 2000 and vote: Bush or Gore?
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#268954 - 09/11/2005 02:40
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: jimhogan]
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member
Registered: 10/09/2004
Posts: 127
Loc: Bay Area, CA/Anchorage, AK
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It amazes me that no one has made the connection between what's going on in France and what happened post-Katrina in New Orleans...we don't have to reach back to 1992!
A disenfranchised, largely minority population with high unemployment and few prospects for better....and the opportunity to strike back, however blindly....Detroit as well as LA did it in the past. Given that large numbers of the working and middle class in the US are sliding under the poverty line at a rapid rate, it may not be such a reach that it can happen here...and given the precarious state of the world economy, probably anyplace else where frustation reaches critical mass.
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#268955 - 09/11/2005 04:45
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
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Because you live in a country that has by majority endorsed a candidate and policy you despise.
The policies the "majority" (in quotes because approximately 40% of those eligible to vote didn't, and with a 2.46% margin of victory one has to wonder what the real will of the American vote would be if everyone gave two sh1ts and voted, but that's neither here nor there) supported weren't necessarily those having to do with the war... they were more likely things having to do with abortion, gay marriage, and business.
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#268956 - 09/11/2005 04:49
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: kayakjazz]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
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Given that large numbers of the working and middle class in the US are sliding under the poverty line at a rapid rate, it may not be such a reach that it can happen here...and given the precarious state of the world economy, probably anyplace else where frustation reaches critical mass.
Agreed, and I'll be beyond amazed if I don't see it in my lifetime, and in a way worse way than what's ever happened here before.
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#268957 - 09/11/2005 09:05
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: loren]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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with a 2.46% margin of victory one has to wonder what the real will of the American vote would be if everyone gave two sh1ts and voted
The result was eerily close to 50/50, and I can't help noticing that 50/50 is the result that would arise if most of the electorate voted not on the issues, but on media spin, gut feelings, etc. -- essentially at random. It'd be a bit of a coincidence if any of the traditional indicators of party preference -- blue-collar/white-collar, white/non-white, confederate/union -- came out exactly 50/50.
2004 was also a record year for turnout, and it'd be very interesting to see how well turnout correlates to closeness of result across all elections. It almost looks as if motivating people to vote is a lot easier than motivating them to vote carefully.
Peter
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#268958 - 09/11/2005 10:08
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: hybrid8]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Is being shipped off to Iraq a suitable outlet for the frustration and anger in today's youth?
You know that the US military is all-volunteer, right?
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#268959 - 09/11/2005 10:13
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: kayakjazz]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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It amazes me that no one has made the connection between what's going on in France and what happened post-Katrina in New Orleans...we don't have to reach back to 1992!
A disenfranchised, largely minority population with high unemployment and few prospects for better....and the opportunity to strike back, however blindly....Detroit as well as LA did it in the past. Given that large numbers of the working and middle class in the US are sliding under the poverty line at a rapid rate, it may not be such a reach that it can happen here...and given the precarious state of the world economy, probably anyplace else where frustation reaches critical mass.
The real question is why can´t the people in LA/Detroit/NO get their shit together and find a job? There are plenty of jobs in other US cities. Why are minorities always dirt poor?
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#268960 - 09/11/2005 10:19
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: Redrum]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Personally, I think that any place you have those levels of unemployment you've got a good chance for some good old civil unrest.
I keep thinking one reason for the high unemployment might be all the holiday time off they get. I mean, why would Wal-mart want to expand to France and pay for those great benefits.
That´s a good point. Walmart is huge in China, but non-existant in Europe as far as I know. You know those chinese workers don´t get 25 hour work weeks and six months of vacation time every year. Lazy french socialists. I´m surprised they haven´t asked the UN for permission yet to stop the rioting.
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#268961 - 09/11/2005 10:36
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
Jeff, I am going to say that I find some of what you are saying a little bizarre. "If I were in your shoes"..."just not in your favor". Dang, I would have sworn that you were in our shoes and we in yours. What to make of this?
I am not in your shoes because I DON'T think Bush is evil, and I don't think a lot of what you guys claim about his adminstration is true. I think he has turned out to be a poor leader who has made some bad decisions, but I don't buy a lot of the rhetoric about his motives for the war and other claims of the left. I also think he did lie and that makes him unfit to be president, but I wasn't given a choice I could live with.
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You think the system is working and I find your opinion pretty surprising.
The system is working from the aspect that we've gotten what the people want- Bush is not some guy who just happened to be president. We as a country wheighed the options and decided he was the person for that office. But it's more than one president. We as a people have made all kinds of decisions that have given this country direction- the car is going where the people have decided it should.
Where the system may be failing is that the collective "we" might be driving the car of a cliff- from that standpoint I AM in your shoes. But if so, that's more than just one election. That's about how we as a people have decided to live our lives and how those choices have been lived out in the leadership of our country.
If we are headed for dissaster, it is not because of Bush, Clinton, or any other president. It is because we the people blew it.
Quote:
Wind the clock back to November 2004 and vote: Bush or Kerry?
Wind the clock back to November 2000 and vote: Bush or Gore?
Bush in both cases because of the Supreme court. I don't like any of the choices, really, but given those that's the way I'd have to vote.
But honestly, I'm upset that I wasn't given better choices to begin with. Once again, it comes down to how we've goverened our own country. We made the choices that put Bush and Kerry as the only two options and forced ourselves to chose between them.
I guess my point is there's really no reason to revolt here because if we are in a mess, it's a mess of our own doing. Our time and effort would be much better spent trying to fix our problems that taking up arms. That has not been historically true for most people unhapy with the direction of their countries.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#268962 - 09/11/2005 10:44
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14492
Loc: Canada
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You know that the US military is all-volunteer, right?
Yeah, but most of them do so to defend their country (and make a life for themselves), rather than to invade the parts of the planet that they don't already own/control.
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#268963 - 09/11/2005 10:51
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Walmart is huge in China, but non-existant in Europe as far as I know.
They own one ASDA, one of the top four grocery chains in the UK.
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#268964 - 09/11/2005 11:23
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: andy]
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old hand
Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
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Quote:
Quote:
Walmart is huge in China, but non-existant in Europe as far as I know.
They own one ASDA, one of the top four grocery chains in the UK.
I was just using Wal-Mart as and example, and also poking fun at their recent "Reduce Benefits" memo.
All I know is that the company I work for is a global company with 70k employees around the world. We are expanding in the Philippines and India where a work day is often 12 hours and vacation time is about non-existent. I’m not saying that right it’s just a fact. We do have a small office in France that we are eliminating. We obtain it through an acquisition and had to make all kinds of concessions in our HR system to deal with the less than 8 hour work days and the massive amount of vacation they get.
Since we are a “global economy now” (like it or not) IMO France will have to become a lot more productive somehow. Possibly lowering these benefits might help short term. I know I’ve had to make concessions to keep competitive with my Indian competition. I didn’t like it either.
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#268965 - 09/11/2005 11:32
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: Redrum]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Sorry, but with this discussion going on, I cannot help thinking about this... 
_________________________
Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs
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#268966 - 09/11/2005 16:26
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
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Quote:
-Loren- The policies the "majority" supported weren't necessarily those having to do with the war... they were more likely things having to do with abortion, gay marriage, and business.
-Jim- Wind the clock back to November 2004 and vote: Bush or Kerry?
Wind the clock back to November 2000 and vote: Bush or Gore?
-Jeff- Bush in both cases because of the Supreme court. I don't like any of the choices, really, but given those that's the way I'd have to vote.
Wow... see... here's an example of what I said. I don't get it. It's this myopic view that scares the hell out of me. There's WAY WAY WAY bigger things, i.e. THE WORLD COMMUNITY, to worry about than if two same sex couples can marry or if a woman can choose to have an abortion. There are billions of other people out there that our international policies affect on serious life and death levels. Not to mention the amount of money this country is projectile vomiting to keep up an unjust war rolling. This is a snarky comment, but I hope there's enough money coming in from China when your Supreme Court overrules Roe v. Wade for all those unaborted fetuses to have an education and a job.
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#268967 - 09/11/2005 17:07
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: loren]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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There's WAY WAY WAY bigger things, i.e. THE WORLD COMMUNITY, to worry about than if two same sex couples can marry or if a woman can choose to have an abortion.
I’m not worried about same sex couples when it comes to the supreme court, and I’m guessing you don’t share my belief that an unborn child is a defenseless human with as much a right to life as you or I. However, from my perspective, when the law allows people to take the life of any defenseless group, including unborn children, that is a HUGE priority, rivaling the importance of “the world community” issues. When the taking of defensless life is at stake, that is something that deserves our undivided (myopic if you will) attention.
I assume you don't agree with my belief that an unborn child is a person with a right to life, and therefore it is wrong for someone to end that life. Doesn’t it make sense, though, that if I start from there, defending that right with all means available is a natural consequence? If some other group of people (one you and I agree deserved the right to live) was being killed every day, you'd probably think that was a big enough issue to be on par with "the world community".
Now I will say that I understand the other side. If an unborn child is not regarded as equal in rights to the rest of us, then I see why other issues are far more important to address. It is a natural consequence of your premise.
But I feel it is not wrong to place such a high priority on the value of life when you start from the premise I do. If you feel my premise is flawed, let's talk about that, but don't accuse me of focusing too much on something when that focus is a natural consequence of my premise.
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I hope there's enough money coming in from China when your Supreme Court overrules Roe v. Wade for all those unaborted fetuses to have an education and a job.
There are plenty of people not getting the money they need in the world, but I believe they still have the fundamental right to live.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#268968 - 09/11/2005 17:24
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5548
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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We as a country wheighed the options and decided he was the person for that office
No... we as a country (no, let me re-phrase that: enough gullible people to create a 50.2% majority vote) believed and were taken in by the lies, deceit, and intimidation espoused by the Republican party.
I take little pleasure in the opportunities that come more and more frequently now, to remind acquaintances that years ago I specifically reserved the right to say "I told you so."
Yes, I am bitter. Bitter and very afraid.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#268969 - 09/11/2005 17:40
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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How about the twenty-five thousand civilians killed in Iraq? Are they less important?
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#268970 - 09/11/2005 17:59
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
How about the twenty-five thousand civilians killed in Iraq? Are they less important?
Of course not- but the question was never "unborn children vs. civilians in Iraq". These issues are far more complicated than that false dichotomy- even if that was how the election made it seem. These things are not decided by elections alone.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#268971 - 09/11/2005 18:39
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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The war in Iraq would not have occurred if George Bush (or some other oil man) wasn't in office in 2002. I feel pretty confident in that stance.
Your argument seems to be that babykilling would go on the decline with Bush elected. My argument is there would have been less death in Iraq with someone else (and I am taking the murderous Husseins into account). Seems like a pretty strong dichotomy to me. If anything, it seems weaker on your end.
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Bitt Faulk
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#268972 - 09/11/2005 18:55
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
The war in Iraq would not have occurred if George Bush (or some other oil man) wasn't in office in 2002. I feel pretty confident in that stance.
True, but the opposite is not true. George Bush being in office did not guarantee that the war would happen. It took approval of congress, which they gave. That's what I mean by things being more complicated than an election.
Quote:
Your argument seems to be that babykilling would go on the decline with Bush elected. My argument is there would have been less death in Iraq with someone else (and I am taking the murderous Husseins into account). Seems like a pretty strong dichotomy to me. If anything, it seems weaker on your end.
There are plenty of things Bush has done with which I do not agree. Unfortunately during the election we’re only given a binary choice and so we have to decide what issues we think are most important, and what will be best for the country (and the world) overall. I believe some good may yet come out of the war in Iraq if the people gain their freedom, so that question is murkier. I do not believe good can come from legal abortions in the US.
Edited by JeffS (09/11/2005 19:00)
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#268974 - 09/11/2005 19:01
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Damn I'm pissy and argumentative.
This has nothing to do with France beyond my initial implication that I think that what's happening in France could happen in the US, based on my personal emotions, if for different reasons. The basis for those reasons is irrelevant.
As to whether or not it actually would happen I don't know. I often wonder about what impact the size of the US has on its populace. Nowhere else in the world is there a region so large with a unified language. (Might Russia? I don't know much about the languages throughout Asian Russia.) I think it's much harder for us to see each other as being vastly different when we share largely the same culture and it's so easy for us to communicate and travel. Compare that with Europe, a place with three-fifths the land mass and well over twice as many people. At the same time, it's easy for us to think of Europeans as different. They're inaccessible and most of them speak languages we'll never know. Even I am horribly US-centric because I don't know anything else. Cris can take a vacation and drive all the way around Europe, but similar people in the US will, at the extreme, visit some other states, and they're not really all that different. There isn't anything here that's been here for more than a few hundred years -- an age which to Europe is brand new.
I'm not sure what my point is, really, but I think this country makes us something wildly different from what Europeans are, both from psychology and logistics, both positive and negative. If this were to happen in the US, it would take a wildly different form.
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Bitt Faulk
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#268975 - 09/11/2005 19:05
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: bonzi]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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It also wouldn't make abortions illegal; it would just leave that decision up to the individual states. Chances are that it would remain legal in half or so.
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Bitt Faulk
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#268976 - 09/11/2005 19:08
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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I'd like to respond to this whole "myopic" accusation again in a bit of a different way. When I look at these questions I am not blindly focusing on one issue to the exclusion of others. I look at all of the issues and decide what is most important because I only get to vote one way. In the end, I think the Supreme Court is so important because whoever the president is, he will be gone in a few short years. But the makeup of the Supreme Court will affect the US (and the rest of the world through influence) for a long time to come. I truly believe a conservative court is going to lead to a better nation and world than a more liberal one, so that is my choice.
I AM looking for a better nation and world, just like the rest of you. I do not ignore the issues in favor of blind religious dogma. I’m coming from a different perspective from many of you, but that doesn't make it a myopic one.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#268977 - 09/11/2005 19:49
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: jimhogan]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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It was also my experience that French police - 'ordinary', gendarmerie or CRS would appear in great numbers without an obvious reason. Sometimes they look like Asterix and Obelix, sometimes, like on Tour d'France finale, somewhat more, er, serious. Tha 40% unemployment figure is probably right for some narrow groups (say, young blue-collar Africans) in some neighborhood. I think I noticed that Paris and surrounding is losing manufacturing jobs (while probably gaining white-collar ones), which particularly affects groups with lower education level. For example, Renault is dismantling its huge manufacturing facility on an island on the Seine near Sevres ( photos, map). Cisco was supposed to build its European HQ there, but now somebody else is developing an office complex. I worked for several months in Saint-Denis, consulting at SNCF (national railroads) IT (OK, I did not live there). While parts of the town are somewhat run down, government seems to be making large efforts at revitalization. It is nothing similar to devastated inner city districts or appaling high rise housings as found in some American cities, as some news reports would like us to believe. In general, I would say that city-owned apartment complexes function rather well (though perhaps not quite as well as, say, in Vienna), although recent events seem to suggest that the layer of normalcy I observed was only veneer-thin.  There are also many new office complexes in suburbs (in Saint-Denis I noticed, for example, a huge Gaz de France facility, Siemens tower etc), but judging by Metro traffic very few locals work in them. I think that myth of lazy French is very much exactly that, myth. Granted, we Europeans generally think that if our government is not providing us with decent health care, education and social safety net then we don't need the government, but Europe is producing Airbuses, Bimmers and TGVs, after all. I was usually putting 50-hour weeks in SNCF, but I was rerely the last to leave our office. Returning to your original question, I am affraid that most countries with high uneployment rate and wide gap between richest and poorest segments of society are tinderboxes similar to France. Of course, French heavy-handed assimilation policy does not help (try to send a document to a governmet office in Breton, Basque, Arabic or, for that matter, German).
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