#269668 - 16/11/2005 03:26
Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
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addict
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 510
Loc: NY
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Free screenings in your area. Looks interesting enough, and I'm floored by just how many people in NYC are willing to open their apartments to total strangers to watch a movie. I'm opting for a screening in a bar with a kitchen tho.
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Heather
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -Susan B Anthony
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#269669 - 16/11/2005 19:03
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: Heather]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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I watched it last night; borrowed the DVD from a friend at work. I thought it was good. It raised a few points that I wasn't already aware of, such as their worse than poor environmental record and crime statistics, as well as just how far they go in their anti-union practices.
It's appalling what that company does in the name of profit.
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#269670 - 16/11/2005 22:57
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: canuckInOR]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
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One of my sister's magizines was lying open to a page with an ad for "organic clothing". Like organic food, the clothes are free of bad-karma nastyness like sweatshop labour and cheap materials.
A great idea, if it's true. But sadly, the working poor are still forced toward the "Rolled Back Prices" by their slave-master land lords and employers. What a beautiful cycle of corporate greed: pay the poor terribly so they can only afford goods created by the poor.
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#269671 - 17/11/2005 00:18
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: FireFox31]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Welcome back to dark-ages serfdom.
But gee, everyone in the commercials looks happy!
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#269672 - 17/11/2005 01:11
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: Heather]
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old hand
Registered: 14/02/2002
Posts: 804
Loc: Salt Lake City, UT
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This might have been nice a few weeks ago before my city voted Walmart in 53% to 47%. The only reason they won is they got the Firefighter & Police unions to support them (even if the people didn't)...
Of course, I work in a grocery store, so I'm biased.
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#040103696 on a shelf
Mk2a - 90 GB - Red - Illuminated buttons
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#269673 - 17/11/2005 02:17
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: Waterman981]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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The low prices outweigh the loss of the businesses that have higher prices. That is, in a pure capitalist sense.
If a business canīt provide a better or cheaper product/service, then they are less efficient than Walmart, and thus the existence of Walmart makes for a more productive capitalist economy.
Of couse though, competition is a good thing. And right now Walmart is hard to compete with. The only way to compete with them is for small business owners to rally support for a boycott. They know that when Walmart moves into their neighborhood, theyīre toast.
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#269674 - 17/11/2005 02:27
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
But gee, everyone in the commercials looks happy!
'Tis depressing. Treat your employees like shit and treat your suppliers like shit, but make sure to spend some tiny percent of your take on advertisements and on sponsorships in sponsor-slave media like PBS and NPR. Ain't it great to hear that warm, reassuring, benevolent announcer mouth "...and by Walmart, committed to treating everyone wonderfully and to making your life a bowl of cherries".
I suppose if I lived in the late 30s, I would probably have more cause to be depressed by the various "Big Lies" of the time. Nonetheless, this really feels like the age of the Big Lies.
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Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#269675 - 17/11/2005 03:18
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: jimhogan]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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I don't like WalMart killing small businesses as much as the next guy, but let me say this... In a time of crisis, WalMart was the first group of people to respond here. WalMart trucks full of supplies were rolling in a full 3-4 days before FEMA. They opened up the store here the day of the storm and said "take whatever you need". While FEMA trucks with ice were lost all over the country, WalMart was here, passing out ice. They sent their head of security to City Hall, with instructions to do whatever we needed. When we needed something, after a few days, we didn't bother asking FEMA or the Feds, we asked Trent, and it showed up either in hours or at least by the next day.
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#269676 - 17/11/2005 03:40
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: lectric]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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You certainly have to give Wal-Mart props for using their massive logistics system to do some good for the people who needed it. You almost have to wonder whether, in the next massive disaster (whatever/whenver it occurs), that FEMA will just contract this sort of thing out to Wal-Mart from the very beginning. (With a no-bid contract, naturally.)
None of this, of course, makes up for any of Wal-Mart's other market misbehavior.
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#269677 - 17/11/2005 06:02
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: ]
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old hand
Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
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Quote:
The low prices outweigh the loss of the businesses that have higher prices. That is, in a pure capitalist sense.
If a business canīt provide a better or cheaper product/service, then they are less efficient than Walmart, and thus the existence of Walmart makes for a more productive capitalist economy.
This often expressed nonsense is called "Market Fundamentalism", making those who actually believe it "Market Fundamentalists". There are many flaws in this thinking, but here are two of the biggest ones:
1. It assumes that cost is the only measure of value, thus "efficiency" measured as the cost of an item offered should be pursued by any means, including worker exploitation.
2. It assumes that the market is the answer to all problems, but ignores the fact that indivicual market participants have a vested interest in destroying the market mechanism itself by achieving a functional monopoly. Many companies engage in unethical predatory behaviors to accomplish this, such as selling below cost to gain access to a new market.
Cost and profit are not the only things of value in the world, and the unfettered pursuit of them at the expense of other values is not a good thing.
FWIW,
Jim
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#269678 - 17/11/2005 06:19
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: DWallach]
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old hand
Registered: 14/02/2002
Posts: 804
Loc: Salt Lake City, UT
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Quote:
You certainly have to give Wal-Mart props for using their massive logistics system to do some good for the people who needed it.
I've heard it said that Walmart is not an amazing retailer. They are an amazing distributor though. Last I saw was 34 stores per distribution center. They have that licked like no other.
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#040103696 on a shelf
Mk2a - 90 GB - Red - Illuminated buttons
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#269679 - 17/11/2005 12:18
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: Waterman981]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
They are an amazing distributor though. Last I saw was 34 stores per distribution center. They have that licked like no other.
Not to mention they keep no inventory on hand that isn't on their shelves, unlike Target or KMart. They use technology to automatically determine when they need to restock from their distribution centers. This means they better utilize their space than their competitors.
All ethical issues aside, I can't stand Wal-Mart from a consumer standpoint. There is no way to just "pop in" to a Wal-Mart- the lines take too long and you have to walk half a mile just to find anything. And they clog the isles with so much stuff. I get stressed just thinking about it. I am willing to pay more just to not have to deal with Wal-Mart. My wife thinks I'm crazy.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#269680 - 17/11/2005 15:23
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: Waterman981]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
This might have been nice a few weeks ago before my city voted Walmart in 53% to 47%. The only reason they won is they got the Firefighter & Police unions to support them (even if the people didn't)...
 That's sad to hear. Of course, had they not been voted in, there's a pretty good chance that they'd simply open up a couple miles outside the city limit. They'd be there anyway, but you won't get any of the positives (i.e. taxes). It's disgusting that they were able to get unions behind them, when they're so anti-union.
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#269682 - 17/11/2005 16:57
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: canuckInOR]
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old hand
Registered: 14/02/2002
Posts: 804
Loc: Salt Lake City, UT
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Yeah, the new supercenter will be about 2 miles south of my store. 1 mile north of my store is a standard Walmart, but in the same shopping center is a Mervyn's that is closing. The rumor is Walmart is going to buy it and put another Supercenter there (like you said, outside city limits). The market here is already so saturated. Within a 5 mile radius of my store there are 13 other grocery stores. There were 15...
In 20 years the people here will realize what they have done...
_________________________
-Michael
#040103696 on a shelf
Mk2a - 90 GB - Red - Illuminated buttons
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#269684 - 17/11/2005 18:34
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I agree, Jeff. I can't stand Wal-Mart from a political point of view, but I can't stand them even more because it's just a terrible, terrible store. Like you say, the aisles are always clogged with pallets of random junk, the aisles are too small, the layout makes virtually no sense, you can never find anything, and their products change so often you can seldom get the same thing twice. That said, at least their stores are dirty and the employees surly (I'd be surly if I was locked in the store all night at slave-labor wages, too, though).
I'm totally willing to spend a few bucks more to go to the Target, where I can find things quickly, where the employees are reasonably friendly (and, hate to say it, are more than one step removed from pond scum), and the store clean and maneuverable.
The only thing that Wal-Mart had going for it was that it was open 24x7. But now that that's gone, I no longer have any reason to go.
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Bitt Faulk
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#269685 - 17/11/2005 19:24
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: wfaulk]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
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But Bitt, what about the free RV parking? [/sarcasm]
Ditto on all the negative comments. The only time I'm glad for Walmart is when I need pong balls and more cups at 2 AM. And now that I'm in my mid-30's, that's not too often.
-Zeke
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#269686 - 17/11/2005 20:00
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: wfaulk]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Does Wal-Mart have uniformly low prices, or do they rise prices if they manage to kill the competition? If they stay low, then it's understandable they are thriving - there's a lot of folks for whom 10% lower price, even for somewhat inferior product, is huge.
In cities that are real cities (that is, that have mixed residence/shopping/business/civic functions in every neighborhood, all within walking distance) megastores are not killing small shops, but suplanting them. For example, I have within three minute walk a bakery and a small grocery (both open till 10pm seven days a week). Within five minutes are other two groceries (you could call them convenience stores), three bakeries, a butcher, a smallish supermarket, a laundry and dry cleaning service, a hairdresser, a fresh produce shop, and other assorted tiny shops (like two belonging to cooperatives, one selling honey and everything made from it or beewax, another with excellent olive oil, wine, grappa and dried figs from a little Dalmatian island). Seven or eight minutes away is a shopping center with a large, well and consistently stocked and not too bussy supermarket (if lines reach tree people, additional checkout counters are open), ten or so shops (clothing, office supplies, appliances...), several cafes, a self-service restaurant popular at lunchtime with people woking in adjecent office blocks, a beautician, a bank... Only now I need public transportation or a car, to reach unpleasant but cheaper megastores like ones described. You are paying for car culture.
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Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#269687 - 17/11/2005 20:14
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: bonzi]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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The problem is that they usually go into fairly sparsely populated areas, drive all the other retailers out of business, at which point none of their customers have any money to buy much of anything, so they then go out of business at that location because they aren't making money anymore.
And it's not that the products are inferior, they're the same. They don't sell anything that's not manufactured and boxed by someone else. (Well, they do sell cheap and inferior clothing, I suppose.) There are claims against them that they dictate their price to their vendors and their vendors have to comply because Wal-Mart is 85% of their sales and they'll go out of business if they don't. Of course, they then comply and go out of business because they aren't making any money.
And most of the places in the US aren't like Europe as far as stores go. Usually the smallest place you can buy any sort of groceries is a supermarket, which comprises produce, butcher, baker (and candlestick-maker?), packaged goods, frozen goods, alcohol (of different sorts depending on the jurisdiction), dairy, and general goods, like households and toiletries. And seldom are they in any sort of walking distance at all. In most parts of the US, there are no walk-to-it stores of any nature.
God, I hate that. I'd love to have dedicated stores where I can get quality merchandise. There are a few upscale supermarkets, but that's about it, and they're usually pretty far away.
But, for the record, Wal-Mart sells mostly households and toiletries, but also cheap clothes, auto parts (but just oil, batteries, and the like, not head gaskets or anything) sporting goods, toys, sewing/craft items, DVDs, small entertainment electronics, cheap TVs, video games and consoles, some boxed foods, mostly snack foods, and some garden stuff. They also have Super Wal-Marts that sell the same thing, usually scaled back a little, plus a supermarket.
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Bitt Faulk
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#269689 - 17/11/2005 21:09
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: wfaulk]
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new poster
Registered: 10/11/2005
Posts: 35
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Quote:
The problem is that they usually go into fairly sparsely populated areas, drive all the other retailers out of business, at which point none of their customers have any money to buy much of anything, so they then go out of business at that location because they aren't making money anymore.
I hear this all the time but I've never seen it happen. Maybe the areas I have lived in are too rich, but where I am now there are two wal-marts, three or four targets, and probably a couple dozen supermarkets of varying price levels from Safeway (cheap but decent for most things) to Trader Joe's (expensive, with lots of specialty food) to Whole Foods (three times the price of anything else, but they try to justify it by making you feel guilty about buying food that wasn't grown in the first world using third world technology), and they all get enough traffic to stay healthy. Personally I don't go to walmart (except once to buy a hoover fusion) because it's a worse than average shopping experience (poor layout and no self-serve registers) and not close to me, but i don't see the evil.
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MkIIa #40104178, 22GB
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#269690 - 17/11/2005 21:11
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: JeffS]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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We have one of the UK's biggest WalMarts about half a mile from the house, and it is where we tend to go when we just need to grab something quickly, because it is easiest to get parked, get in and out of. There are closer supermarkets, but they are a pain in the neck.
Morally, I don't like WalMart, but they do have better food and goods than the others here, although to be fair, I can get way better food about 12 miles away, at the weekend farmer's market - just is a lot of time and effort:-)
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MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
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#269691 - 17/11/2005 21:50
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: JeffS]
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old hand
Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
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In addition, the company does not "own" most of their inventory. Because of their huge volume, OEM's consign much of the inventory and are paid when it sells. In the words of Don Tapscott, author of the fantastic Digital Economy, "Wall Mart owns the product only for a nanosecond, as it passes through the checkout scanner." This is great for Wall Mart, but bad for the supplier who needs to front manufacturing and transportation costs of extremely large orders.
They are a notoriously tough buyer. A colleague who is a VP at a major grain products company told me that Wall Mart and Sam's Club will purchase by the multiple rail car load, but with extremely short notice and at a very low price. If the supplier is not willing to bend over backwards, by putting their bulk order ahead of everyone else's order, then too bad.
I used to work for a supply chain consulting firm, and we often told medium-sized business who were trying to get their products into the Wall Mart system that this could be the worst thing that ever happened to them. Wall Mart demands absolute first preference from a supplier, in huge volume, at extremely high service levels -- and at very low margin. For companies like Coca Cola, who can handle these huge orders and rail shipments in stride, the large volume may well be worth the lower margin. For many companies, however, the "cost to serve" Wall Mart means that they can't sell to them profitably. Basically, it is a more expensive customer to serve, and they demand lower prices for the priviledge.
I agree with what others have said that it is a horrible shopping experience, and I simply won't go there. The true democracy of America is the consumer dollar though, and millions have voted the likes of Wall Mart and Home Depot into the positions they enjoy.
Wall Mart does so many things right: incredibly efficient distribution, the toughest purchasing in the world, and stellar use of technology (for a long time, Wall Mart owned the largest telephony switching system in the SE United States). They invest where they need to, in distribution automation and information systems, and cut corners everwhere else they can get away with it. The fact of the matter is that they do what they were "elected" to do extremely well. From this point of view, Wall Mart is one of the best run companies in the world. Will people realize that "the game is not worth the candle?" Certainly this is what the documentary makers are hoping.
I don't think its *necessarily* bad for communities or the country, but it shows what you get when cost is the only factor for people: low quality, poor service, bad worker relationships, bad supplier relationships, oh -- and low prices. The important thing to remember is that people seem to want this. These documentaries exist because some people don't want it, and they believe that others won't once they understand the "high cost of low price." I think this is naieve, but whatever. I doubt that the opponents of Wall Mart are the nation's poor...
Another extremely well-run company has the exact opposite approach: Barnes and Noble. This company charges more for its products, but provides a pleasing atmosphere for people. This is the other side of retailing: the retailer as entertainer. Among non-drinking people, this store has actually become a pickup scene. A retail store!
Since there will *always* be fewer high-income persons than low-income persons, the Barnes and Noble model will only work in large population centers where a sufficient market critical mass exists. On the other hand, the poor are everywhere in sufficient numbers to make a Wall Mart profitable.
Jim
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#269692 - 17/11/2005 21:59
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: Heather]
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old hand
Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
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Oh, by the way, the free screenings of this movie in my area are all in upscale neighborhoods. This Wall Mart hating is a classic example of Maslow's Heirarchy: those who can afford not to go there hate it and see all of the negatives and injustices, but there are millions of poor people who can't afford otherwise.
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#269693 - 17/11/2005 22:17
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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If that's true, how did all these poor people survive before Wal-Mart?
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Bitt Faulk
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#269694 - 17/11/2005 22:18
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: bonzi]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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Quote:
4.5M people
We have cities with more people than that.
As far as buying food from WalMart, I pick up small stuff, like DVD's and TP and such, but the only food I'd buy there is prepackaged (chips and the like) stuff. Meat, you can forget it. I go to a butcher. Ugh, the thought of eating WalMart meat makes me shudder.
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#269695 - 17/11/2005 22:27
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: lectric]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Wal-Mart used to have a nasty policy of selling only the fullscreen versions of movies on DVD. Certainly well within their rights to do so, but it speaks poorly of their clientele and also means I'd never buy one there regardless of any of my other complaints.
They used to edit CDs for explicit lyrics and not tell you, too. Nice, huh? Wouldn't want to offend the person that buys the latest Ice Cube album. You never can tell when Cube might accidentally let loose with a "gosh darn".
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Bitt Faulk
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#269696 - 17/11/2005 23:38
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: wfaulk]
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old hand
Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
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I'm not saying its a matter of survival. It's a matter of values, which develop heirarchically. Only once people have their economic needs met to their satisfaction will they begin to raise these questions. In general, poor people have more concerns about money and will value lower prices above other issues.
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#269697 - 18/11/2005 00:11
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: wfaulk]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
If that's true, how did all these poor people survive before Wal-Mart?
If we go back a hundred years or so, I think weīd find that poor people often did starve to death.
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#269698 - 18/11/2005 00:20
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: frog51]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
We have one of the UK's biggest WalMarts about half a mile from the house, and it is where we tend to go when we just need to grab something quickly, because it is easiest to get parked, get in and out of. There are closer supermarkets, but they are a pain in the neck.
Wow, that's crazy- around here that's about as different as it can get for me.
My typical Wal-Mart experience:
-Drive into parking log
-Park waaaaay back
-Hike a mile to get inside
-Wander around for 20 minutes looking for something*
-Mutter under my breath at the people/ displays jamming the walkways
-Find my item, note to myself that it is cheaper, but not cheap enough to justify the pain this trip has been
-Wander back to the checkout line, once again muttering under by breath about people/ displays everywhere.
-Wait in line for 15 minutes for one transaction
-Check out
-Hike a mile back to my car
-Drive off the lot
*And if my wife is with me, get delayed for another 15-45 minutes as she notices something she just must stop and examine/try on.
And don't try any of the above near Christmas. At least not with me.
Yes, I HATE Wal Mart.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#269699 - 18/11/2005 00:25
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: ]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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But as for the evilness of Wal-mart, I just donīt get it. So they demand fast, cheap service from their suppliers, so what? Wal-martīs customers demand the same from them. Nobodyīs putting a gun to the suppliersī or the customersī heads.
I guarantee you suppliers wouldnīt be doing business with Wal-mart if they were losing money in the deal. Everyone is making money off of Wal-mart - the customers, the suppliers, and Wal-mart themselves. The only people who arenīt are the obsolete businesses who canīt keep up. Henry Ford put the horse-buggy makers out of business. Cry me a river. Itīs not the end of the world. Itīs technology.
If so many people detested Wal-mart then these small Mom and Pop shops would stay in business. In fact, they would thrive. Walmart doesnīt have the best shopping atmosphere, but they make up for it with dirt cheap prices, and thatīs what most people want more.
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#269700 - 18/11/2005 00:31
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: JeffS]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
*And if my wife is with me, get delayed for another 15-45 minutes as she notices something she just must stop and examine/try on.
I once wondered why large supermarkets donīt have small electronic devices placed throughout the store that allow you to type in the name of a product and have it tell you the exact location. A search engine for the store, if you will. But then I remembered that they make most of their money on impulse buys, so itīs in their best interest for you to get lost or have to wander to the back of the store to find the good stuff.
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#269701 - 18/11/2005 00:37
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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If so many people detested Wal-mart then these small Mom and Pop shops would stay in business.
And would the world be a better place with or without these shops? If you think it's better without them, why?
I'm not saying that keeping these shops alive is Wal Mart's responsbility- only that pure capitalism doesn't necessarily give us a better world. I'd shudder to live in a world where the only options for retail were Wal Marts.
Edited by JeffS (18/11/2005 00:39)
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#269702 - 18/11/2005 00:45
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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An interesting twist on the whole competition thing is San Antonio, TX. The ONLY grocery store there is HEB. I have no idea how, but they've been able to run every other grocery store out of town. I'm not sure what it's like most places, but in Houston and here in Atlanta there are many choices for grocery stores.
Wal Mart only started building their super stores (the ones with groceries) in SA in the last few years- they've been the only ones able to compete. HEB is in no danger from them, though. Even with slightly higher prices they seem to be doing fine.
Kind of seems to be the reverse of the normal story- usually it's Wal Mart driving everyone out.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#269703 - 18/11/2005 00:50
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: JeffS]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Quote:
If so many people detested Wal-mart then these small Mom and Pop shops would stay in business.
And would the world be a better place with or without these shops? If you think it's better without them, why?
I'm not saying that keeping these shops alive is Wal Mart's responsbility- only that pure capitalism doesn't necessarily give us a better world. I'd shudder to live in a world where the only options for retail were Wal Marts.
I think itīs definitely better with them, but only if theyīre self-sustaining. I donīt think itīs fair to shut down business B through force just because business A canīt stay profitable anymore.
Iīd shudder in a world with only Wal-mart too, but the great thing about a free market is itīs free. Iīve never been in a town where Wal-mart was the only place to buy food, clothes, and guns. If you want a top-notch quality product or a friendly shopping atmosphere then there are plenty of other options than Wal-mart.
Itīs not like anyone is being forced to shop there; itīs just so damn convenient that sometimes you do.
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#269704 - 18/11/2005 01:08
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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I go to Walmart almost exclusively for automotive products. I have an Autozone, Napa, Car Quest, and Advance closer, but Walmart charges about 50% less for Mobil1 oil and their $2 SuperTech oil filters have been found to be the same as Napa Gold which cost about $10. My Walmart has a tire and lube center connected to the store, but it has a seperate entrance around back. I park right next to the door everytime, get what I need and checkout in the lube center. In and out very quickly with a ton of savings. Maintaining 5 cars (at the moment) can get costly, and Walmart is welcomed for this purpose. Sometimes I will buy Stanley tools there if Sears is closed, but that and oil is just-about it. I would never buy any sort of DVD or CD there. Never food either. For clothes, I often buy imperfect stuff at National Wholesale Liquidators which is actually cheaper than Walmart. Sure, there might be a thread out of place, but I can never find it and it's often name-brand stuff. If you think Walmart shoppers are scary, you haven't seen anything until you go to NWL. It doesn't bother me. Poor folks know where to get the best price/performance ratio. I'm happy to shop amongst them because then I know I'm shopping smart. I make a good wage, but I'm not a spendthrift. It doesn't make sense to pay more of something when you can avoid it. Stuff you put in your body is different though. I often buy wine directly from local wineries. Beer is often local as well. Those things are worth it. 
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#269705 - 18/11/2005 01:22
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
I donīt think itīs fair to shut down business B through force just because business A canīt stay profitable anymore.
Once again, no one is suggesting that. But I do think it's important to recognize that capitalism doesn't inherintly lead to the best of all situations. Unfettered it can easily lead to a situation where there are a few rich and many poor with no opportunity to better their situation.
Quote:
Iīd shudder in a world with only Wal-mart too, but the great thing about a free market is itīs free.
The great thing about a free market is it allows for many people to try many different things all at once so we generally get a higher quality product. But this by nature means that all those trying things that don't work are going to fail. It's economic Darwinism and it's brutal. However, it does allows us to get some pretty neat stuff.
It should be noted, though, that while it yields better stuff, it doesn't necessarily yield the BEST stuff. The empeg is a phenominal product which (for whatever reason) didn't find a sustainable market. Even if it's not an economic winner, it's still one of the best (THE best?) mp3 players of our time. Windows, on the other hand, is certainly not the best operating system we could come up with, and yet it is inescapable.
Quote:
Itīs not like anyone is being forced to shop there; itīs just so damn convenient that sometimes you do.
And that is the quandry. People don't shop with an eye on sustaining the economic world around them- they do what makes sense for the moment and for them personally. This is why the government gets invovled: to try and preserve the world we really want and capitalism won't naturally provide- unfortunately that's a dangerous game with a whole different set of problems. I think the most important thing is not to be committed to a system, because they each have their downsides. You have to know their weaknesses and try to put policies in place to strengthen them.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#269706 - 18/11/2005 02:21
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: ]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
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...But then I remembered that they make most of their money on impulse buys, so itīs in their best interest for you to get lost or have to wander to the back of the store to find the good stuff.
Example: Ikea
There's only one way out of the store- through every department.
_________________________
10101311 (20GB- backup empeg)
10101466 (2x60GB, Eutronix/GreenLights Blue) (Stolen!)
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#269707 - 18/11/2005 02:42
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Wall Mart does so many things right: incredibly efficient distribution, the toughest purchasing in the world, and stellar use of technology (for a long time, Wall Mart owned the largest telephony switching system in the SE United States). They invest where they need to, in distribution automation and information systems, and cut corners everwhere else they can get away with it. The fact of the matter is that they do what they were "elected" to do extremely well. From this point of view, Wall Mart is one of the best run companies in the world. Will people realize that "the game is not worth the candle?" Certainly this is what the documentary makers are hoping.
I appreciate the balance in your post about Walmart. Yes, they do so many things right, as you say.
I am not sure that I can think of the executive leadership of Walmart as evil in the same way as Nazis or Bush and I can't get as riled up on the topic of Walmart as on the topic of abortion, say, but the whole Walmart does disturb me.
I'd like to think of them as folks who just have religion -- corporate zeal -- and that they just like to sing the company song "Always low prices!", but it is more than that. If not evil, they are at least bad. It's one thing when an entity gets so big that they have disproportionate leverage over the people and institutions they deal with....but then to deliberately, cold-bloodedly perfect that unfair leverage into a science... That's bad. Evil?
Beyond the economics, I am perhaps most disturbed by the cultural leverage of the various Walmarts. Trust me, I have no interest in buying a 2LiveCrew CD from Walmart and I have never had the urge to rent Natural Born Killers from Blockbuster or anywhere else. And I would defend to the death their right not to sell or rent either of these...ummm, unless, of course, they are the only stores in the whole of the US of A. Well, anyway, I don't think that any particuar retailer should be expected to carry any particular art, but the notion that any large chain should be able to dictate content back to producers and consumers (change lyrics, covers) is repugnant. Of course the fact that we have artistic production concentrated in so few hands means that this is hardly the sole fault of Walmart or Blockbuster....
Sigh.
The fact that anti-Walmart sentiment is concentrated in folks who do not feel economically compelled to shop there is interesting. I'd like to thing that railing against Wamart isn't just a way to make "tornado bait" jokes at the expense of folks who are dealing with a whole different economic calculus. But I don't hate the folks shopping at Walmart. I just want Walmart to be a different company. To play fair....
...oh, but then they wouldn't be able to, Katrina efforts notwithstanding, cover the entire earth like low-priced blue kudzu.
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#269708 - 18/11/2005 02:51
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: bonzi]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Does Wal-Mart have uniformly low prices, or do they rise prices if they manage to kill the competition?
Once an item hits a certain price, I think it stays that price. However, I've heard that, in their grocery department, at least, they sometimes demand smaller packaging than what goes to other retail stores -- that way, the price looks cheaper on your box of cereal, but you're getting less, so the unit cost is the same, or maybe even higher than in other retail stores. Caveat Emptor.
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#269709 - 18/11/2005 03:51
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
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The true democracy of America is the consumer dollar though, and millions have voted the likes of Wall Mart and Home Depot into the positions they enjoy.
Well said, but I don't believe these votes are cast voluntarily. I believe that corporate America loves to keep the poor right where they are.
Sell them the problem and the cure: the car they can't afford and the debt consolidation that will own them, the junk food to make them fat and the diet pill placebo to convince them it's ok to eat more crap.
With corporate America convincing the poor away from their money, what choice do they have but cheap goods? And with aggressive marketing to convince them that "consumption = happiness", these people are driven to Wal Mart and such in droves.
I go out of my way and spend any extra amount to get quality products instead of the low end merchandise at these massive stores. I really should follow through on my idea to revitalize pride in quality American-made goods, justifying a higher cost with longer product life and better performance. I'd be my own best customer.
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- FireFox31 110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set
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#269710 - 18/11/2005 04:19
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: FireFox31]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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For the record, when I said I bought DVD's there, I only buy Widescreen versions. If they don't have it, I complain loudly and have even been known to ask for a manager to complain to them. They seem to have gotten the point and and I haven't had to complain in a LONG time. I haven't bought a CD from them in at LEAST 10 years. In fact, I haven't bought one from ANY store in at least 5. Online or concert only, and usually direct from the artist. The only clothing I'd buy there is socks.
By the way, as far as Home Depot goes, ever notice how every couple of months they moves the entire store around? That's to make sure you can't learn the store and not get lost. They want you wandering the aisles looking for something. WalMart does this too, but to a lesser extent.
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#269711 - 18/11/2005 04:40
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
Quote:
We have one of the UK's biggest WalMarts about half a mile from the house, and it is where we tend to go when we just need to grab something quickly, because it is easiest to get parked, get in and out of. There are closer supermarkets, but they are a pain in the neck.
Wow, that's crazy- around here that's about as different as it can get for me.
We don't actually have any "real" Wal-Mart stores in the UK. They are all ASDA stores, which Wal-Mart bought several years ago.
I used to work in an ASDA when I was a teenager and I can't spot any major changes that Wal-Mart's purchase has made, apart from the fact that they appear to be better managed (they were appallingly managed when I worked for them).
That said I avoid shopping at our local ASDA even though it is out closest store, they never have enough checkouts open and their veg is poor. Their meat is cheap and surprisingly good quality. They don't suffer from random pallets in the ailes, which is a pet hate for me.
I suspect I am atypical for UK shoppers though. The most popular supermarket chain in the UK is Tesco, which I avoid at almost all costs. The problem I have with Tesco is they never appear to stock the stuff I want.
As an example the only supermarket near to where I was working for 9 months last year was a Tesco. It was within walking distance of a couple of thousand office workers. You would think that would mean that they were well setup to serve the lilely customers. But now, by 12:30 every day they were sold out of all the decent sandwiches and snacks. And in the height of the summer they sold no chilled bottled water (and no single bottles of water smaller that 1.5 litres).
My preferance is Sainsburys.
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#269712 - 18/11/2005 05:53
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: lectric]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Quote:
By the way, as far as Home Depot goes, ever notice how every couple of months they moves the entire store around? That's to make sure you can't learn the store and not get lost. They want you wandering the aisles looking for something. WalMart does this too, but to a lesser extent.
A supermarket I used to do my twice-monthly 'big shopping' in (even had their loyalty card) started doing this; I never go there any more.
My currently preferred spermarket (where I go even for smallish purchases, because they are well organized, with very short lines etc) initially attracted me just because they are the only ones with an underground garage instead of open parking lot; convenient when it rains.
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#269713 - 18/11/2005 07:36
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
The true democracy of America is the consumer dollar though, and millions have voted the likes of Wall Mart and Home Depot into the positions they enjoy.
Sadly I am seeing a very bad part of this. The area of town I live in is pretty new. About probably 10 or so years ago, some large companies came through, bought up tiny pieces of land from mostly farm owners and other people, and started then reselling the land out to large commercial developers and also to large home builders. In came the home builders to develop the land into communities, and then came in the large commercial chains to build their stores. The price of the land, and also the shop space was set at such a high price, no local business could afford such prices in almost all cases. Contracts were written by the land owners that insured that other companies couldn't come in, buy a building, then lease the space back cheeper.
Average price for a square foot of space is $25. Areas of town here that aren't so new are much closer to $10. At the price of $25, Wal-Mart, Home Depot, Lowes, and so on have no problem affording it. Where as some of the local places that try usually close quickly, or are confined to such a small space as to be useless. A local hot wing store that opened has room for 4 tables for customers to sit at. The only sizable locally owned restaurant I can think of our here is a sushi place, and they have another store to help their bottom line in a part of town with much lower retail prices.
In the end, beyond lack of local selection, I fear it will just end up ruining much of the town. Since there is plenty of land still to the east and north of the city, it will continue to expand, driving growth out of the central part of town, and leaving abandoned neighborhoods with housing values plummeting. I'm already reevaluating my house purchase on the eastern side of town with the new growth push rapidly to the north. I fear once the developers leave this area and keep commercial contracts still stuck at forcing $25 sq/ft prices, values will end up falling quicker then I can pay the house off. The new aspect will wear off, the smaller stores in the shopping centers will be closed, and the place will be abandoned. Even WalMart here has closed stores leaving derelict buildings to sit, as they moved the resources from that area to a newer area.
Your statement is true, people voted them into these positions with their dollars. And now, they are running rampant, enjoying a massive profit surge from things like this, and in the end screwing over the local city residents. Many of the big developments have been started by WalMart and Home Depot here, with them turning around and reselling space on what is their property for other retailers.
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#269714 - 18/11/2005 08:52
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: Robotic]
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old hand
Registered: 14/04/2002
Posts: 1172
Loc: Hants, UK
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Quote:
Quote:
...But then I remembered that they make most of their money on impulse buys, so itīs in their best interest for you to get lost or have to wander to the back of the store to find the good stuff.
Example: Ikea
There's only one way out of the store- through every department.
Apparently there are short-cuts for the staff and in some of the UK stores they have labelled them "to the check-outs", but I imagine unless you are looking you won't spot them.
Gareth
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#269715 - 18/11/2005 08:56
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: andy]
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old hand
Registered: 14/04/2002
Posts: 1172
Loc: Hants, UK
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We don't actually have any "real" Wal-Mart stores in the UK. They are all ASDA stores, which Wal-Mart bought several years ago.
I haven't beed to our local one recently, but it looked something like this. The normal ASDA stores haven't changed a bit though, although I believe the computer systems are all hooked up to the main Wal-Mart head office where they can benefit from their (immense) software investment.
Gareth
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#269716 - 18/11/2005 09:10
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: g_attrill]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4174
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Apparently there are short-cuts for the staff and in some of the UK stores they have labelled them "to the check-outs", but I imagine unless you are looking you won't spot them.
There are places you can nip through -- I think they're even marked on the store maps -- but personally I only get to go to Ikea about once a year anyway, so it's always all new and I want to see all of it anyway.
Peter
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#269717 - 18/11/2005 13:42
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
pure capitalism doesn't necessarily give us a better world
Quote:
capitalism doesn't inherintly lead to the best of all situations
Who are you and what have you done with the real Jeff?
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Bitt Faulk
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#269718 - 18/11/2005 13:52
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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On the other hand, I live in a fairly newly built area and the shopping center/strip mall they're opening near me seems to be geared towards more local-owned or at least smaller stores. The biggest store is a supermarket (Food Lion, ugh. I go elsewhere), followed by an Ace Hardware. (Ace is the place with the helpful hardware high school kid who doesn't know what you're talking about, but at least the conclusion is that either they don't have it or it costs 50% more than everywhere else, by, hey, at least Ace is a franchise, so it means that that store is owned by someone local. Unfortunately, I also don't go there, mostly because it's just a terrible store. You know those stores that have too many floor employees and you can't go without being accosted, so you try to avoid the large aisles and end up feeling like you're trying to rob the place? Also, the Home Depots around here haven't changed their layouts as far as I can remember in ten years, maybe more.)
Anyway, the rest seems to be geared towards locally-owned businesses or, again, niche stores. There's a pharmacy that opened up. Several boutique clothing stores. A Trek bicycle store. Two hairdressers, one cheap, one nice. And so on. The point being that the developers specifically wanted to get smaller, less homogenous stores.
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Bitt Faulk
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#269719 - 18/11/2005 14:44
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: peter]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Ours I think was an ASDA, but then when WalMart bought it, it was massively expanded and sells everything. It is then attached to about 100 other shops, and across the road is a building containing about 100 discount outlet stores.
But quite easy to get around, except at Christmas - but then at Christmas I try and avoid all shops.
Ikea I hate wayyy more than WalMart - Claire loves it, but I find it hell-on-Earth!
_________________________
Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#269720 - 18/11/2005 14:44
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Two hairdressers, one cheap, one nice.
OK, time to fess up.
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Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#269721 - 18/11/2005 15:01
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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You caught me. I get one side of my head in a up-do and the other side is cut with electric clippers.
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Bitt Faulk
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#269723 - 18/11/2005 16:50
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5543
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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I live in a town that has the following:
And I live in a town that has the following:
Fred Meyer
Safeway
and let me tell you, the lack of competition causes prices you would not like to live with.
Milk: $4+ a gallon.
Fresh broccoli: $1.97 a pound.
Grapes: $3.99 a pound
Hamburger: ~$3.00 a pound
etc.
Prices are noticeably higher (even factoring in general inflation) than they were when there were more shopping opportunities in this town. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find that the managers of the two stores get together every week to decide what the prices on the "sale" items will be the week following.
Wal Mart is in this town now, but they don't sell groceries. There is a conflict going on now about whether to allow Wal Mart to open a second store (this one a "super store" that sells groceries) on the opposite side of town. I can't see how it makes any sense -- the total area population (say within a radius of 50 miles) is about 60,000 people. That's enough to support two Wal-Mart stores?
Yet, I am undecided -- I'm tired of being taken advantage of by the near-monopoly in grocery stores we have now.
On a semi-related topic... Wal Mart prices are not always the lowest around. I recently returned a defective automobile interior electric heater (it turns on whenever the car is plugged in in cold weather, along with block heater, transmission and engine oil pan heaters, battery trickle charger) and since they were out of stock on that item they refunded my money. I then found the identical heater at NAPA for $30 less than Wal-Mart, a 33% savings
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#269724 - 18/11/2005 18:03
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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That's enough to support two Wal-Mart stores?
Well you said yourself you already have two grocery stores. Once they go out of business, that should be 30k people per wallmart. Assuming they go every week, that's 4k per day, give or take. Assuming one person shops for two people, that's 150 people per hour for a 12 hour day. Sounds reasonable.
Matthew
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#269725 - 18/11/2005 18:51
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: drakino]
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new poster
Registered: 10/11/2005
Posts: 35
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Contracts were written by the land owners that insured that other companies couldn't come in, buy a building, then lease the space back cheeper.
Sorry, why do you need a contract for this? Why would a company buy space and then resell it at a loss (unless property values collapse in between)? And why would the original owner care?
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MkIIa #40104178, 22GB
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#269727 - 18/11/2005 21:27
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I imagine that's large part of Heather's objection. I've known about that for quite some time due to her. I think the best part is that Wal-Mart has made that moral judgement for all their pharmacists. I mean, I don't think that it's right that a pharmacist can refuse to fill a prescription at all, but Wal-Mart isn't even giving them that choice.
Then again, they've also made the choice that I can't listen to Nirvana's "Rape Me" or read Maxim. But I can buy Grand Theft Auto. Well, that is, before they found out there was sayks-you-ull content in it.
Edited by wfaulk (18/11/2005 21:29)
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Bitt Faulk
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#269728 - 18/11/2005 21:35
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Then again, they've also made the choice that I can't listen to Nirvana's "Rape Me" or read Maxim
To be fair, you can listen to that all you want. You just can't buy it at their store.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#269729 - 18/11/2005 22:13
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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True, but in some cases, that means I have to drive to the next large town to get it. (Of course, it may be possible that if the Wal-Mart wasn't there, I'd have to do that anyway. Also, online retailers make that less of a concern.) Fortunately, folks can buy a copy of Scarface. So chainsaw murders depicted graphically? That's okay. Some scantily clad women? No way, dude.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#269730 - 18/11/2005 23:19
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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I don't think that it's right that a pharmacist can refuse to fill a prescription at all
If there is only one pharmacist at a pharmacy, then yes, that can be a problem, but otherwise, I don't have a problem with it. To me, that's no different than me having the ability at work to tell my boss "you know, I'm not comfortable working on a film with this subject matter -- it goes against my ethical values." They'll find someone else to do the work, and assign me something else. I've never had to do that, but I don't want to give up that right. If it comes down to it, I'll quit. What if the pharmacist quit over an issue like this? Then you not only have no pharmacist to give you Plan B, but you have no pharmacist to give you any of the other drugs, either.
I recognize that it's a slippery slope, though...
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#269731 - 19/11/2005 00:27
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: matthew_k]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5543
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Well you said yourself you already have two grocery stores. Once they go out of business, that should be 30k people per wallmart
Both Fred Meyer and Safeway are large chain stores that are not about to go out of business. And there are two of each of them in this town. So there is no shortage of shopping opportunities, but there is a shortage of competition in the grocery area.
So... two WalMarts, two Fred Meyer stores, two Safeway Stores, spread not among 60K people, but realistically 30K because people who live 40 miles away are not shopping every week, and due to a sizeable military presence (an army base and an air force base so that many people do their shopping at the military-subsidized PX) would only leave 5000 people per WalMart, not 30,000. Figure a third of them to be children, that leaves us about 3,000 people per store.
Let's see, open 7am to 10pm 7 days a week, that's 105 hours per week. If every one of the 3,000 people shopped at their favorite WalMart once a week, that would come to about 30 customers an hour. There would be about a two to one ratio of employees to customers, not a recipe for financial success.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#269732 - 19/11/2005 00:38
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Well, first, making a movie hardly has health concerns.
Second, if the pharmacist is also a member of the KKK, would it be okay for him to refuse antibiotics to his non-white customers?
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#269733 - 19/11/2005 01:02
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: drakino]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
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Quote:
The new aspect will wear off, the smaller stores in the shopping centers will be closed, and the place will be abandoned.
Humanity, driven by instinctive greed, is a parasite. My current AIM profile quote sums it up nicely:
"What would make humans not want to take a chance on keeping our planet alive and well? Are these people so sick they can't see anything but themselves and therefore no one or nothing else matters to them? Is money really that evil? Is money the devil that christians speak of? Does money make people wish for death and not for life? If the planet dies we all die. There is no God/Goddess that can save us from ourselves. Why bother saving stupid people that love to kill everything in their way, even their own home?" - http://www.alternet.org/envirohealth/22008/
In other news, my local Shop Rite grocery store now offers online shopping through MyWebGrocer.com. Excelent! Since I get the same stuff every two weeks, I save my shopping list online, and in a few clicks, the order is in to the store. Someone runs around the store putting together my order, and 4 hours later, I can go pick it up. Two hours of grocery shopping (and 30 mins of writing the list) reduced to $10 service fee. Sadly, I feel like all the other (seems to be) snobs who use the service, having the clerk pack their groceries their big fancy cars. And I miss going into the store, I really do. But I can't resist the efficiency.
If only everything could be bought online, we'd have ultimate choice without all the wasted time wandering in the store.
_________________________
- FireFox31 110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set
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#269734 - 19/11/2005 03:10
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: canuckInOR]
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new poster
Registered: 10/11/2005
Posts: 35
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So does that mean I can also refuse to write code if I don't like the purpose it will be used for? Or that a mechanic at the shop I go to can refuse to fix my Honda because he's morally opposed to imports? If someone didn't want to dispense drugs, he shouldn't have become a pharmacist in the first place. Or, apparently, he should have gotten a job at Wal-Mart.
If enough pharmacists decide they don't want to do their jobs and quit, demand will drive the salary for pharmacists up and some non-self-righteous-prick pharmacists will fill the void, which is fine by me.
_________________________
MkIIa #40104178, 22GB
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#269735 - 19/11/2005 03:30
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
So chainsaw murders depicted graphically? That's okay. Some scantily clad women? No way, dude.
Welcome to the US- I remember an online game a while back (neocron maybe?) that was trying to push the limits in both violence and sex. If memory serves they ended up having to release seperate versions for Europe and the US with the violence toned town for the European version and sex toned down for the US. Or maybe they released one version with both modifications- it was something like that.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#269736 - 19/11/2005 04:44
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: wfaulk]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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Hehe, I played Need for Speed: Underground for 3 months before I found out what Skeet means. It's repeated many times in one of the songs on the game. I'm sure the bigwigs at WalMart still don't know.
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#269737 - 19/11/2005 07:00
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: jpt]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
Sorry, why do you need a contract for this? Why would a company buy space and then resell it at a loss (unless property values collapse in between)? And why would the original owner care?
Why the original owners would care is beyond me. But a friend of mine was looking at space in the area for a store he wanted to open (and ended up opening elsewhere). During his search, he got tired of coming across all these high priced leases for space in a building, so he considered trying to build his own building and then leasing out the space he wasn't using for his store. When he tried to do this, he was confronted with the statements in the contracts for the land that any space he leased must be priced at a certain value for a certain amount of years. It wasn't that he would take a loss, it was that the land owners were demanding such a high price for any commercial lease on the property. I don't have the full details as this was several months back, but I do remember him trying to do this both in this part of town, and also further north where Home Depot had bought a fair amount of land around their proposed store site.
Te insane part was by his calculations, if he bought a certain piece of land and built a building on it and leased out most of it, the building and land would be paid for in 5 years at the prices he would have to charge. Sounds like a great deal until you also realize that he couldn't lower the price just a bit to ensure he got a lease. Odds are, this part of town will slow in growth, and his forced price will look too high in just a few years.
He will probably only stay in the place he ended up for a short amount of time. Seems the owner likes raising the price yearly, and this ends up driving out the stores there over time. Having worked near this place for 5 years now, I can confirm this happens with quite a regular frequency. The shops there now weren't there back when I started. Most moved just a few blocks down the street to avoid the rising prices.
Commercial leases and land agreements seem to be horribly complex and just seemingly random in some of the stipulations.
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#269738 - 19/11/2005 13:27
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: drakino]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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So, it is legal for former owner to retain control over the property of the current owner!? So much for sancrosanctity of private property...  Do you know whether anyone tried to test enforcability of those stipulations in court? Landowners probably do it because they still own some land in the neghborhood and imagine that high rents and businesses that can afford them will keep the value of their reminding plots high. I wonder what empty shop space does for land value...
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#269739 - 19/11/2005 13:43
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: bonzi]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4174
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
So, it is legal for former owner to retain control over the property of the current owner!? So much for sancrosanctity of private property... Do you know whether anyone tried to test enforcability of those stipulations in court?
Well, if it's part of the contract of the sale of the land then I imagine it's pretty ironclad. I know someone who pulled out of a house purchase because the seller was demanding a large cut of the proceeds if further houses were built in the huge back garden at any time in the next twenty years.
Peter
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#269740 - 19/11/2005 23:41
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: ]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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#269741 - 19/11/2005 23:47
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
I imagine that's large part of Heather's objection. I've known about that for quite some time due to her. I think the best part is that Wal-Mart has made that moral judgement for all their pharmacists. I mean, I don't think that it's right that a pharmacist can refuse to fill a prescription at all, but Wal-Mart isn't even giving them that choice.
Agreed. I think it is the duty of pharmacists to provide those pharmaceuticals that have been legally prescribed (unless, say, they discern that a practioner is doing something completely wacko in which case it is their duty to report said practitioner). I don't have a huge problem with conscientous objector pharmacists. I just think they need to find another line of work.
Now Walmart -- or any other entity that would systematically attempt to deny women's access to Plan B -- what they are doing is immoral.
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#269742 - 21/11/2005 02:46
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: ]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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#269743 - 21/11/2005 04:33
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: bonzi]
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member
Registered: 06/04/2000
Posts: 158
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Yes, I've seen this sort of thing (cut of any future price rises due to housing development) several times in UK agricultural land sales. If I'm looking at buying land from someone with this idea I try and explain that in any commodity business if someone wants to buy a call option it has a premium; which in practical terms comes as a reduced price for the land. 9 out of 10 would-be sellers don't get this (and presumably have many people backing out of the deal as a consequence).
However two parties can agree to do any (legal) thing in a contract, and if one party fails they can be sued for damages. We can agree to give you a cut of future sales, or not charge a rent below X, or paint all the grass blue. Always read the small print...
Regards
Mark
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#269744 - 21/11/2005 19:50
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: jpt]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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(very late response)
Yeah, it looks like that was a one-or-two time thing they did.
I think we can still all agree that they have some pretty aggressive business practices.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#269745 - 21/11/2005 21:48
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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Just for fun, I decided to go check out Walmart.com's prices on point-and-shoot digital cameras. The results are pretty interesting:
(camera / walmart.com / bhphotovideo.com)
Canon SD450 / $329.54 / $299
Nikon Coolpix P2 / $399 / $329
So, when they've got the same exact camera, B&H seems to be creaming Wal-Mart. On the cheap end, Wal-Mart offers a 4MP Kodak Easyshare CD40 for $98.84. B&H doesn't offer that camera (it's probably made exclusively for Wal-Mart). The absolute cheapest digital camera offered by B&H is a 3MP Kodak Easyshare C300 for $109.95.
What's this mean? Wal-Mart is a great place if you're looking for the absolutely cheapest version of whatever it is that you're looking for. If you're looking for a more expensive, higher-quality part, it's entirely unclear why you'd bother looking at Wal-Mart.
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#269746 - 22/11/2005 00:57
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: FireFox31]
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addict
Registered: 13/06/2000
Posts: 429
Loc: Berlin, DE
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Unforunately for me, I can't shop at my fav food store anymore because I moved to CA. I'm still searching for a decent place around here. I find it so wierd that people could just make a list of things, and buy the same stuff every week.. each time I goto the store, I have to think about "what havn't I tried recently" and poke around until I find something new. I have my standard recepies, but I am always on the lookout for a change of pace. Food is like music.. it all tastes boring after the 100th time in a row.
_________________________
80gig red mk2 -- 080000125
(No, I don't actually hate Alan Cox)
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#269747 - 22/11/2005 00:59
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
Well, first, making a movie hardly has health concerns.
My example wasn't meant to be about "health concerns", but about dealing with personal ethics in the workforce. In the case where there are no other pharmacists available, the pharmacist is ethically bound to fill a legal prescription as ordered by a doctor. However, that same pharmacist should not be required to fill the prescription if he/she is morally against the use of that drug and there is another pharmacist available to fill the prescription. If there is no other pharmacist to dispense the drugs, and the "moral" pharmacist has issues doing so, then, as Jim suggested, it's time for that person to find a position.
Quote:
Second, if the pharmacist is also a member of the KKK, would it be okay for him to refuse antibiotics to his non-white customers?
That's absurd. There's a pretty big difference between racial bigotry, and a moral stance derived from a viewpoint that life begins at conception.
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#269748 - 22/11/2005 01:20
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: canuckInOR]
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addict
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 510
Loc: NY
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That's absurd. There's a pretty big difference between racial bigotry, and a moral stance derived from a viewpoint that life begins at conception.
Let's play whatif...
Whatif someone truly believes blacks are evil and it is a sin in their book to associate with them in any way? Whatif they believe asians are the infidels and giving them lifesaving drugs is a one way ticket to hell? Why is this moral judgement different and unprotected?
As a matter of fact, these moral judgements are only tolerated when it comes to birth control? Why does society deem it okay for my pussy to be everybody's damn business, and their opinion carries more weight than mine, when I'm not given the same authority, hell, it's not acceptable for me to even have an opinion, over their penis?
Now for the public service announcement to dispell common pro lifer and churchgroup fed ignorance and misinformation:
Plan B, Preven, large doses of oral contraceptives, commonly known as the morning after pill, does not do a thing after conception. They work by supressing ovulation. There is much unproven speculation of a so called "post fertilization effect", meaning hormonal contraceptives create a hostile endometrium, but no proof, just political propaganda, often filled with other bent facts and untruths as those who assert the unproven post fertilization effect as truth (unlike existance of god, this is something which can be observed and quantified, so I'm gonna vote total horseshit on that one).
Point #2. The medical definition of pregnant is after implantation. Funny thing is, implantation naturally fails to occur between 20-60% of the time after conception. Without implantation, zygote gets flushed. Does this make god the master abortionist?
Edited because Heather is typing worse than usual. 104 hours without a cigarette can really mess one up.
Edited by Heather (22/11/2005 01:22)
_________________________
Heather
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -Susan B Anthony
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#269749 - 22/11/2005 01:21
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: jpt]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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So does that mean I can also refuse to write code if I don't like the purpose it will be used for? Or that a mechanic at the shop I go to can refuse to fix my Honda because he's morally opposed to imports?
Absolutely, to both questions. If you are not willing to stand up for a particular personal value you holds (no matter where you derive it from), then you don't value it enough to call it a moral. Either that, or you consider being unethical as perfectly moral.
That might be okay for you, but it sure as hell isn't for me. I'm willing to quit my job if what I'm asked to do goes against my ethics, and my employer refuses to give me alternative work.
Quote:
some non-self-righteous-prick pharmacists
I'm sorry, but when did following one's ethics make one a "self-righteous-prick"? Because they aren't the same as your own ethics? As far as I'm concerned, comments like this put you squarely in the same camp you're denigrating.
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#269750 - 22/11/2005 01:24
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: canuckInOR]
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addict
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 510
Loc: NY
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I'm sorry, but when did following one's ethics make one a "self-righteous-prick"? Because they aren't the same as your own ethics?
Actually, when said ethics lead you to force your will onto another persons body, it makes you a rapist, not a self righteous prick.
_________________________
Heather
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -Susan B Anthony
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#269751 - 22/11/2005 01:52
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: Heather]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
Quote:
That's absurd. There's a pretty big difference between racial bigotry, and a moral stance derived from a viewpoint that life begins at conception.
Let's play whatif...
Whatif someone truly believes blacks are evil and it is a sin in their book to associate with them in any way? Whatif they believe asians are the infidels and giving them lifesaving drugs is a one way ticket to hell? Why is this moral judgement different and unprotected?
Racial bigotry is based on percieved stereotypes and skin colour, which have nothing to do with whether a person is human -- regardless of anyone's convictions. The other boils down to when does "life" begin -- because it's pretty clear that wantonly taking life is wrong.
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As a matter of fact, these moral judgements are only tolerated when it comes to birth control? Why does society deem it okay for my pussy to be everybody's damn business,
I don't know, but I think it's wrong -- personally, I don't care about your pussy, let alone what you do with it. Not having a pussy, I can't possibly have the same perspective you do.
Quote:
Now for the public service announcement to dispell common pro lifer and churchgroup fed ignorance and misinformation:
Plan B, Preven, large doses of oral contraceptives, commonly known as the morning after pill, does not do a thing after conception.[...]
Interesting -- I've never had to deal with Plan B, so I admit to not knowing a thing about it. My above statements were made while considering the new abortifactant drug that Jim was talking about, which is what I thought Bit was referring to, and which I think is a bit elevated from "regular" birth control (which I'll define as anything that prevents your medical definition of pregnant).
Quote:
Point #2. The medical definition of pregnant is after implantation. Funny thing is, implantation naturally fails to occur between 20-60% of the time after conception. Without implantation, zygote gets flushed. Does this make god the master abortionist?
A not-so delicious irony, isn't it?
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#269752 - 22/11/2005 02:06
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: Heather]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm sorry, but when did following one's ethics make one a "self-righteous-prick"? Because they aren't the same as your own ethics?
Actually, when said ethics lead you to force your will onto another persons body, it makes you a rapist, not a self righteous prick.
But if someone is required by law to fill your prescription, arenīt you forcing your will on them?
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#269753 - 22/11/2005 02:10
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: ]
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addict
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 510
Loc: NY
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But if someone is required by law to fill your prescription, arenīt you forcing your will on them?
Not unless someone's forcing them to be a pharmacist. I don't take jobs I have ethical issues with, they shouldn't either.
_________________________
Heather
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -Susan B Anthony
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#269754 - 22/11/2005 02:35
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: Heather]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Personally I think if itīs a free country you should be able to buy whatever drugs you want without prescriptions.
But you should also be able to refuse to do your job. If someone doesnīt like it they can complain to the employer, and it should be the employerīs decision what to do.
The only exception I can think of where people should be prosecuted for not doig their job is in an emergency. Like if a doctor refuses to help someone dying from a heartattack. Or in an extreme example, if youīre the only pharmicist around for miles and refuse to service someone with an immediately life-threatening condition.
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#269755 - 22/11/2005 08:03
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: Heather]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Quote:
104 hours without a cigarette...
Congratulations!
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#269756 - 22/11/2005 08:09
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: SuperQ]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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my fav food store
Mmmm, looks like it would be my favourite, too, were I living there...
Quote:
I find it so wierd that people could just make a list of things, and buy the same stuff every week.. each time I goto the store, I have to think about "what havn't I tried recently" and poke around until I find something new. I have my standard recepies, but I am always on the lookout for a change of pace. Food is like music.. it all tastes boring after the 100th time in a row.
I agree completely. Besides, I buy my fresh bread and milk daily, and fruits and veggies at least twice a week.
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#269757 - 22/11/2005 21:59
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: bonzi]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
Quote:
I find it so wierd that people could just make a list of things, and buy the same stuff every week.. each time I goto the store, I have to think about "what havn't I tried recently" and poke around until I find something new. I have my standard recepies, but I am always on the lookout for a change of pace. Food is like music.. it all tastes boring after the 100th time in a row.
I agree completely. Besides, I buy my fresh bread and milk daily, and fruits and veggies at least twice a week.
I was talking about this a few months ago with a guy at work here, who is from Switzerland. It's essentially a completely different culture. Daily trips to the market are not the norm in North America. Part of the difference, is, I think, simply due to urban sprawl, and the car-culture we have here. We don't have mini-grocery stores on every corner here, where we just walk down to the corner store for fresh food -- what's more common is a 7-11 convenience store, which are more noted for selling liquor, porn mags, junk-food, and slurpees, than they are for their fresh produce (which some do actually carry). When it involves a 20 minute trip out of your way to get even your basic groceries, you're not going to want to make it more than you have to. I'm lucky -- I live within walking distance of (at least) 7 grocery stores, and pass two or three (depending on my route) on my way to/from work (to stay briefly on-topic, none of them are WalMart) -- so I do make frequent trips for fresh groceries.
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#269758 - 22/11/2005 23:05
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: canuckInOR]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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what's more common is a 7-11 convenience store, which are more noted for selling liquor, porn mags, junk-food, and slurpees, than they are for their fresh produce (which some do actually carry).
Here's a nitpick which is somehow still on topic.
7-11 quit selling porn about 20 years ago.
That's because Southland corporation has an ethical issue with that.
So you can buy Maxim, or some Lowrider magazines, or the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue if you really need to see some nearly topless women.
But, on ethical grounds, they don't sell Playboy or anything harder.
Also, I seem to recall that 7-11 does not sell liquor, only beer. (and lately, wine)
And they don't even sell beer in certain markets (based on local regulations).
They do sell junk food (and lots of it).
And of course the Slurpees, which I think is a 7-11 trademark (so everyone else has to sell "Squishees," or "Slushees," or some such).
Of course, your comment is dead-on accurate for "24 hour convenience store" used in the generic sense, where you can stock up on your whiskey, Hustler, and Cheetos all at the same time (along with condoms, cigarettes, and sometimes a singing statue of Elvis).
I just wanted to point out that 7-11's parent corporation decided to take an ethical stand against selling porn. At least in the south and west. I can't remember if their ethics are "more flexible" in the northeast.
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#269759 - 23/11/2005 04:46
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: canuckInOR]
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addict
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 510
Loc: NY
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Racial bigotry is based on percieved stereotypes and skin colour, which have nothing to do with whether a person is human -- regardless of anyone's convictions.
I'm sure some people will beg to differ with you on this point.
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The other boils down to when does "life" begin -- because it's pretty clear that wantonly taking life is wrong..........I don't know, but I think it's wrong --
Yeah, you see, there's this fundamental thing that everyone on this board has pretty much missed here. I'll give you a hint...It''s so obvious it causes me physical pain that it's been overlooked for so long on so many threads...everyone playing along at home, roll up a newspaper or magazine and whack yourself about the head a bit and yell this at the top of your lungs while you do it.... (we need a large text button so I can yell more effectively)
Ya see, there's this funny thing about human life. IT JUST DOESN'T PROGRESS BEYOND THE BLASTCYST PHASE WITHOUT A UTERUS TO IMPLANT INTO. EVEN IF IT'S ONE OF THOSE IVF ZYGOTES COOKED UP IN A LAB. UTERUS, FREEZER, OR DEATH. NO OTHER ALTERNATIVE. AND THERE'S THIS FUNNY THING ABOUT A WORKING UTERUS, IT ONLY COMES PACKAGED IN A FULL GROWN FEMALE HUMAN BEING. ONE ENTITLED TO FULL CONTROL OVER HER BODY.
Now, ya see, you're making yet another mistake here. You're assuming the anti-choice rapist behind the pharmacy counter will step aside and let the other pharmacist without an objection to contraception do the job (and no, it's not just plan b and the likes, some pharmacists refuse to dispense regular ol birth control pills, sometimes because they're against birth control, some think it's only unmarried harlots who shouldn't have them and no givey pills without seeing spouse, and some who are so entrenched in the lying rape culture of the anti-choice movement, say they cause "chemical abortions", again unproven, even with 40 years of research on oral contaceptives to look at.) And if you do a little googling, you'll find many a story of prescriptions confiscated, berating the patron, and all manner of common anti-choicer terrorist tricks. (Go watch an abortion clinic stocked with "sidewalk counselors" one day, the pharmacy counter is just another bully pulpit for their gutter values and rapist agenda) All of these actions involve abuse of power to force your will onto someone else's body. This isn't forcing someone who believes porno is morally wrong to edit a lesbo movie. It's a hell of a lot deeper than that. Pregnancy causes permanent alteration of the body, whether it is carried to term or not. Carrying a pregnancy to term is a very public thing (and some people get all wierd and touchy feely toward pregnant women, even if they're total strangers. We should let pregnant women carry whacking sticks for use on these people). Denying a woman contraception based on your belief is possibly forcing her to endure an unwanted pregnancy for your morals, which may well just lead to that abortion they wanted to prevent anyway, only you might get the double harassing fundie rapist effect. Once at the pharmacy counter, once again (or maybe two or three times, depends on how many BS roadblock laws your municipality has) on the walk into the clinic. Now, does the woman denied the contaceptives get the right to castrate the pharmacist because she thinks that's an appropriate punishment for rape? I'm guessing few people will agree with that, because that's like wrong and stuff. But for anti-choicer to subject her to unwanted intervention with her fertility, fine and dandy.
But don't just take my word for it, check out Pharmacists for Life International,feel the love and respect for female patient as person. This is the largest organization pushing for these refusal clauses. It's the cunt for breeding, cunt for fucking, person after you fill those roles mentality.
You don't want to do a job, step aside and let someone who's willing do it. No one owes you a job any more than you owe some random dude on the street a cut of your wages.
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Interesting -- I've never had to deal with Plan B, so I admit to not knowing a thing about it.
I'll bet you've got no preference in brand of tampons either, and your underwear drawer has a lot less satin and lace than mine (unless you're kinky like that). What we've got here is someone with no knowledge of the subject and no vested interest in it running off with an opinion. Might I ask what even makes you entitled to having one regarding something that is so not about you?
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My above statements were made while considering the new abortifactant drug that Jim was talking about, which is what I thought Bit was referring to, and which I think is a bit elevated from "regular" birth control (which I'll define as anything that prevents your medical definition of pregnant).
So you're confused and running off confused and spouting an opinion on it. Even tho the easily googled plan b was specifically mentioned.
Two more points:
[list]
Not my definition of pregnant. It is the one the American college of Obstetrics and gynecology (i think i remembered that name right) and some other respectable medical organizations use.
Chemically induced abortion with the drugs WagonBoy mentioned is not new. As a matter of fact, I don't know of any doctor that would write a script for that unsupervised, and I can go buy a few scripts for whatyever the hell prescription drug I want to use recreationally, from a licensed medical doctor (some with good reputations even!) at 1:00AM. Fer chrissakes, some of 'em will even deliver.
More clarification:
There are two common methods for performing a medical abortion.
The first procedure, using a drug called Mifeprex, also known as RU486, is taken orally in a doctor's office and followed two days later by another medication called misoprostol, which causes the uterus to contract, resulting in the expulsion of the pregnancy tissue.
The second procedure, using a drug called Methotrexate, includes an initial injection, followed one week later by misoprostol, which causes the uterus to contract, resulting in the expulsion of the pregnancy tissue.
As for unchecked sale and use of these drugs as an alternative? There's about a 10% failure rate. They cause severe birth defects. At best, it'll be thalidomide babies redux, but I bet it will be far worse than that. We don't have much to study, as women who are given these drugs agree before hand to surgical abortion in case of failure.
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personally, I don't care about your pussy, let alone what you do with it. Not having a pussy, I can't possibly have the same perspective you do.
Yet you've offered uninformed opinions on it, and expounded on what rights people who have beliefs differing from it's owner have to enforce those beliefs on women, and how they should be protected while doing it. And I bet you didn't even realize it, and don't see anything wrong with it. Hell, everyone's got rights to operate within their morals, even if those morals come at the expense of something so personal and dear as the rights of another to control their own body. I mean, they're not real people, just baby factories.
If I recall correctly, you're a white christian male, aren't you? (And that's only half snark in that question)
_________________________
Heather
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -Susan B Anthony
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#269761 - 23/11/2005 08:22
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: Heather]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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It's difficult to argue with the view that everyone is entitled to full control over her own body (and I agree with that view). However, that does not seem to be universal standpoint: for example, I am not allowed to ruin my body with so-called controlled substances.
Given your opinion that pregnancy is exclusively the business of the owner of womb in case, do you think that the provider of other half of genetic material, the father, has any say? Does he have any responsibility ('the society' certainly hold he has)?
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#269762 - 23/11/2005 14:22
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: bonzi]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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It's not intended as a grocery. They're, colloquially, "convenience stores" and mostly started as adjunct to gas stations -- just somewhere to pick up a snack while you were stopped already. They have no interest in selling things that don't have a basically infinite shelf life.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#269763 - 23/11/2005 17:44
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: wfaulk]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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They have no interest in selling things that don't have a basically infinite shelf life.
Mmmm. Infinite shelf life hot dogs. They also have very little interest in selling things that you aren't going to use/eat right then. Something like 90% of the things they sell are consumed within 10 minutes. (I made that up, but the real statistic is similar)
Matthew
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#269764 - 23/11/2005 18:51
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: matthew_k]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Have you seen those hot dogs? They probably have a longer shelf life than the overpriced quarts of motor oil that they sell. Actually, they're probably cooking in some of that motor oil.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#269765 - 23/11/2005 19:38
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: wfaulk]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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Quote:
Have you seen those hot dogs?
Many a time, but I've certainly never eaten one. They frighten me.
Matthew
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#269766 - 23/11/2005 23:51
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: Heather]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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AND THERE'S THIS FUNNY THING ABOUT A WORKING UTERUS, IT ONLY COMES PACKAGED IN A FULL GROWN FEMALE HUMAN BEING. ONE ENTITLED TO FULL CONTROL OVER HER BODY.
How is a baby part of your body? It depends on your body to live, but itīs not part of it. It takes two people make a child.
It wouldnīt be ok for a Siamese twin to have a doctor surgically alter one of itīs organs so that the other twin dies. Both twins should have a say in it. So shouldnīt your baby have a say in whether or not it lives or dies? I donīt think I can find any person who would say "I wish my mom would have aborted me." Yet, there are thousands of abortions everyday.
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#269767 - 24/11/2005 01:19
Re: Wal-Mart - The High Cost of Low Price
[Re: Heather]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
Quote:
Racial bigotry is based on percieved stereotypes and skin colour, which have nothing to do with whether a person is human -- regardless of anyone's convictions.
I'm sure some people will beg to differ with you on this point.
Of course, and I'm not oblivious to that fact -- I don't believe moral absolutism exists -- but society, as a whole, has at least progressed to that point.
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The other boils down to when does "life" begin -- because it's pretty clear that wantonly taking life is wrong..........I don't know, but I think it's wrong --
Yeah, you see, there's this fundamental thing that everyone on this board has pretty much missed here.
No, you assume everyone on this board his missed it.
Quote:
Ya see, there's this funny thing about human life. IT JUST DOESN'T PROGRESS BEYOND THE BLASTCYST PHASE WITHOUT A UTERUS TO IMPLANT INTO. EVEN IF IT'S ONE OF THOSE IVF ZYGOTES COOKED UP IN A LAB. UTERUS, FREEZER, OR DEATH. NO OTHER ALTERNATIVE. AND THERE'S THIS FUNNY THING ABOUT A WORKING UTERUS, IT ONLY COMES PACKAGED IN A FULL GROWN FEMALE HUMAN BEING. ONE ENTITLED TO FULL CONTROL OVER HER BODY.
Read what I've written very, very carefully, and you will note that I've never, ever argued against that.
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Now, ya see, you're making yet another mistake here.
No, you're making an assumption about my assumptions.
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You're assuming the anti-choice rapist behind the pharmacy counter will step aside and let the other pharmacist without an objection to contraception do the job
I didn't fall off the turnip truck, thanks. I'm making an assumption that an ethical pharmacist against [insert item here] would do that, yes, but I'm not making the assumption that all would -- had you actually read my posts carefully, you might have noticed that clarification.
I'm less than impressed that you accuse me of making assumptions, without seeking to clarify what might just have been an unclearly written comment.
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And if you do a little googling, you'll find many a story of prescriptions confiscated, berating the patron, and all manner of common anti-choicer terrorist tricks.
I don't consider that the behaviour of an ethical pharmacist who is against such things.
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Denying a woman contraception based on your belief [screed snipped]
Did you actually read what I wrote, or did you just skim it, and fill in the blanks with what you think I meant, because part of what I wrote doesn't conform to your ideal?
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You don't want to do a job, step aside and let someone who's willing do it.
Exactly -- that's what I'm advocating. The only difference is, I'm not saying a pharmacist shouldn't have to out-and-out quit, if there is someone else available (and I'm not talking about "at the pharmacy on the other side of town", but "behind the same counter") that can fill the prescription.
All that stuff you mentioned above about customers getting harangued is just plain bad customer service. Any pharmacist that engages in that sort of behaviour should be fired -- not allowed to quit, fired -- regardless of whether it's over birth control, or acne medicine.
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Interesting -- I've never had to deal with Plan B, so I admit to not knowing a thing about it.
I'll bet you've got no preference in brand of tampons either, and your underwear drawer has a lot less satin and lace than mine (unless you're kinky like that).
Not particularly, no. 
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What we've got here is someone with no knowledge of the subject and no vested interest in it running off with an opinion. Might I ask what even makes you entitled to having one regarding something that is so not about you?
Oh, I'm sorry -- I didn't realize that only women were necessary for reproduction, and were, therefore, the only ones able to educate themselves about the topic, and form an opinion.
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[snip]
- Not my definition of pregnant.
Recognized.
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personally, I don't care about your pussy, let alone what you do with it. Not having a pussy, I can't possibly have the same perspective you do.
Yet you've offered uninformed opinions on it, and expounded on what rights people who have beliefs differing from it's owner have to enforce those beliefs on women, and how they should be protected while doing it. And I bet you didn't even realize it, and don't see anything wrong with it.
No... I think you've been reading *way* more into what I was trying to say, than what I was saying (or, at least, thinking), which is simply that I think it is possible to ethically deal with moral issues like this in the workplace, without forcing a pharmacist (or rapist, if you prefer your needlessly inflammatory language) to quit.
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And I bet you didn't even realize it, and don't see anything wrong with it. Hell, everyone's got rights to operate within their morals, even if those morals come at the expense of something so personal and dear as the rights of another to control their own body. I mean, they're not real people, just baby factories.
Wow. That's just... so... far off from my perspective. Are you trolling me?
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If I recall correctly, you're a white christian male, aren't you? (And that's only half snark in that question)
White, yes (can't pick your parents), male, yes (I was going to say can't pick your gender, but I suppose in this day and age, you can). Christian? Raised as one, yes, but my view of Christianity (and religion in general) is that it offers some useful tenets for living a quality life, but that it's predominantly all metaphorical, and should be taken with a pretty hefty grain of salt (sized more like a salt lick, than what comes out of a salt-shaker). I'd probably describe myself as apathetically-agnostic (as in, at the present time, I don't know for sure, and nor do I really care), bordering on "something exists" (based on past experiences of either myself, or direct friends and family members). The only times I've been to church in the last several years are when I've been visiting my parents. I suppose you could say I "lost the faith" roughly mid-high school (at minimum, 15 years ago).
My personal views of birth control are that it's between (in no particular order) a) a woman and her doctor, b) a guy and his doctor, and c) partners (and if they can't agree on either use of (or not), or method of such, then they ought not to be having sex in the first place). That's it.
Oh, and I'm 100% pro-choice.
How does that fit in with your assumptions of me?
Cheers,
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