If you all haven't seen this, you should... Car radio that reads CD-ROM's w/MP3 files on 'em. Reportedly, it's $299

http://aiwa.com/Catalog00/Products2.asp?id=94

http://hardware.mp3.com/hardware/individual/car/2738.html?cp=hardware_link1

Nice, but... Think first. To mimic even the lightest of the empegs available (I mean the new 4 gb base model), this thing should have some kind of CD-rom changer in the trunk for at least 6 discs. And it wouldn't be the same, you know. Don't even think of the 36 gb model... a 55 disc changer, anyone? :-)

Yeah, it's not the only one, either. There are several hitting the market this year. They're simply adding MP3 playback to standard car stereos. Either via memory cards (ala Rockford Fosgate) or via burned CD-R's (like the Aiwa model, as well as the Kenwood unit mentioned on the cover of the latest Crutchfield catalog).

Nifty devices, but not in the same class as the Empeg. The whole idea of the Empeg is that you don't have to bring a pile of media with you- your whole CD collection is contained in the Empeg, no switching disks, cards, or cartridges. What good is the ability to play burned MP3s on your in-dash unit if you have to switch disks anyway?

Tony Fabris
Empeg #144

What good is the ability to play burned MP3s on your in-dash unit if you have to switch disks anyway?

---

...It's a good solution for those that can't afford the empeg's price tag though... It's alot better to have 10 cd's on one cd-r, then 1 audio cd...
-mark

...proud to have one of the first Mark I units

actually , if the average mp3 is 4 megs.. 4GB holds 1000 songs. Which if the average CD is 14 tracks. That is 71 Redbook audio format CD's

Even cd burned with mp3s holds roughly 162 songs if your burning is spot on. That's about 6 cd. They do have fast burning machines , but the process still craps out. You still dont have any control what order you play it in other than random or linear.

Lets face it.. Firmware is in. You can't upgrade these things in terms of storage or compatibility with new formats or features. It's a lot of the intangibles that make the Empeg rock over any other product out.

In terms of comparing CD based mp3 players. It for a different market. My cousin would love that as his first step. For me , i already divorced myself from CD's a while back. So to go back to lugging CD's around would be a pain. Keeping a copy down in the car and in the house was a big pain. CD's get scratched and they tend to skip when u hit a good bump. My Empeg doesn't do that.

I like to revisit the old arguments , but for me , CD has been dead for 2 years now.


Empeg Kicks Ass
S/N 00203
http://www.iretro.com

There's other reasons why the empeg does it better than a MP3-CD player apart from storage.

One word: Playlists.

One word: Visualisers.

Even though you can buffer the MP3 file, CDs still skip and you could still lose playback.

The empeg can become an ordinary home stereo input. Try doing that with another unit.

If a thief steals your CD player, e's got your CD - this may just give him more music this way. The empeg gives him little more than a black box.

One word: Upgradeability.

I'm sure there are more.

Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.

I agree with Tony in that the Empeg is in a completely different class than most other MP3 players hitting the market this year, but at the same time, its not that different to the average consumer. My view of the average ICE consumer really likes the concept of MP3 audio, believes it to be of less quality, but thinks it might be worth the upgrade anyway (10 albums on a CD? Cool!) I'm really glad the Empeg is not in this class of player. Compressed Digital Audio will be big in the audio (car & home) markets of the next couple of years, and while I'm glad that means Empeg Ltd. will be doing great business (touch, errr, knock on wood), it also means that there will be a lot of devices that the "average consumer" thinks are in the same class. That, coupled with the price difference, will mean that the Empeg player will remain the high-quality leader in quality of playback, upgradability, customer support, and everything else that's already been said on this thread. Bring on the "competition", because we all know that right now, there really isn't any.
Kudos again to Empeg Ltd. for jumping in so early in the market with a top-notch product!

_~= Dearing =~_
"WAY too happy about having #99."

> If you all haven't seen this, you should... Car radio that
> reads CD-ROM's w/MP3 files on 'em. Reportedly, it's $299

That may be, but does it run Linux? ;)

Remember, empeg car isn't just an MP3 Player.... it's a computer! :D I've read a few stories on these boards about what people wann try with it. Who knows what you can do? Try doing all these cool things with the competition hehe

What dearing just posted was pretty much my thoughts before posting... There is a **long** way from $299 to $1199. What do you get? 10 times the storage, playlists and a better UI(we are talking *pure* music machine here). If you haven't experienced the difference, you don't really appeciate it... it's not so bad shuffling through 150 tracks... 1500 though... Anyway, I'm very aware of the empeg being not just a giant CD-changer but if my mom should choose, she'd choose the Aiwa in a blink... (Think about it, for a quarter the price you get just about the same, it can hold her entire collection on ~two CD's, so she won't have to change very often(wouldn't matter anyway: she got her electric windows changed for the manual type cuz she wanted to be able to open them w/the ignition off...)) What a deal!

The empeg car player is not, and never will be, aimed at the "average consumer". The average consumer does not spent $1200+ on a car stereo (not to mention the amps and drivers) and the margin on this product provides no room for movement on the price - even if we made a much greater volume.

We have stated that the car player is a high end example of our technology - primarily of our software technology, which scales to a wide range of related applications. I doubt empeg will ever market a sub $500 digital audio product, but that doesn't mean we don't develop them for other people to badge and sell!

This is good news for the car player product. The high end, no shortcuts design need not be compromised to accommodate the mass market, so those of us that want a really cool car stereo with bells and whistles are well catered for.

Rob

This is my main point when people try to compaire the empeg to other peoducts. Heres a clip from one of my last slashdot.org posts about this:

The empeg is an in car computer. It just happens to play MP3's very well. It runs Linux. It's only competetor runs WinCE. (And can't play MP3's yet since it's so underpowered). Soon, my empeg Mark II equipped car will be pumping out over 200 hours of music, tell me what exit to get off on, checking the traffic ahead, allow me to control it via voice, and be the server for an in car ethernet network. (GPS+CDPD modem support is under way right now).

Somehow I don't think a $300 10 hour MP3 player is going to compete directly with empeg that well.

My empeg site is:http://24.236.3.131/empeg/

Soon, my empeg Mark II equipped car will be pumping out over 200 hours of music, tell me what exit to get off on, checking the traffic ahead

---

...A little off the subject, but is anyone working on a GPS project for this?
-mark

...proud to have one of the first Mark I units

www.mp3pump.de

quiet interesting. J.

...A little off the subject, but is anyone working on a GPS project for this?

I'm working on a empeg-GPS-Palm project. To put it simply, Palm shows a street-level map on it's 160x160x16grays screen while empeg gives other information by voice-overs. GPS receiver communicates to empeg via serial port and Palm talks to empeg via IrDA.

Beat that with Aiwa

Kim

Wow, a 25Mhz 386 and a hardware MP3 decoder. That's useful *cough*

Rob

This sounds fantastic - if you'd like to have a chat about it, send me an email. You'll need some support for this to coexist nicely with the player software, but that shouldn't be a problem.

Rob

> Wow, a 25Mhz 386 and a hardware MP3 decoder. That's useful *cough*

And using DOS. How much more useful can you get? hehe

Some laughs of the old age:
FAT(16) - note the comment about 540MB hard drive max (2GB with disk manager software LOL!) Can you even get a 540MB hard drive anymore (let alone a 2GB)?
TSR - The player is a TSR (cuz of lack of multitasking of course). We get to go back to the age of programming using interrupts. * chuckles mildly to self *
Does this mean we have to go back to segment:offset style programming too?

My sides hurt...

Hi Kim,

I'd be very interested in what you are working on. Before you go too far with a seperate GPS, check out Rand McNally's Palm V solution...

- Jon

Well, it's a nice looking little cradle-thing, but that's where I stop being impressed. It looks like you have to create the map on your computer and then download it to the Pilot. Presumably, this also means that it can't do dynamic rerouting, and it definitely couldn't handle spontaneous direction requests. And besides, it means that you'd only actually use it for long trips, and then you'd have to go through the process of mapping on the computer and bring it over...

I think that the power of using the empeg for this sort of thing is the use of its hard drive. You can load several hundred megs on it with no problem for street-level maps of a whole state, or several gigs for street-level of the whole US. The empeg would also be powerful enough (I think) to be able to handle the routing and all other processing.

I'm interested in attacking this too, but without the Palm. (I must admit, though, that it would be cool to have an optional Palm for showing a good-sized map -- but all the "smarts" should be in the empeg.) I've been looking around for the road data, and when my Mark2 comes (I deferred my order), I'll start playing around more seriously.

Alex

I'd be very interested in what you are working on. Before you go too far with a seperate GPS, check out Rand McNally's Palm V solution...

Attachments still does not work on this BBS - so I didn't quite get your point

Kim

Sorry about the attachment not working. I just attached a picture of the Rand McNally Pilot device. You can see it on the Rand McNally web page if you are interested, but I'd agree with Alexander... If all the processing and maps were on the Empeg, it would be much more powerful...

- Jon

Erm.. enter the network connector!
Why can't the maps be on HD or CD in a sealed box elsewhere in the car, all hooked up on the network. GPS, Navigation, Car security, the whole shebang in your car!
You can configure your car from home via the airport. The possibilities are endless, like my bank balance.

The point being is that there is enough communication from the Empeg that storing maps etc and eating into prescious music space is not necessary.



____________________________
Murray

I'm not sure I agree with that - the empeg is probably the best environment for a disk in your car. It provides excellent protection against shock, and can accommodate rather a lot of storage. At the moment the largest model is 36Gb but before the end of the year that should be 64Gb or greater (awaiting new drives from IBM).

Allocating a Gb or so for street maps seems like good value to me.

Rob

>Somehow I don't think a $300 10 hour MP3 player is going to compete directly >with empeg that well.

Really? Right now all EMPEG does is music, assuming you can even get one. All the other stuff you cite is vaporware. The only advantage Empeg car has at this moment is Geek Apeal and storage capactiy. Is that worth an extra $1000 to most people? I doubt it. Joe Blow doesn't care about Linux or any OS religious BS. They just want cool tunes and if a unit like the Aiwa can deliver 10X capacity then they'll dig it. If Aiwa or any other vendor delviers a MP3 enabled CD-Changer then even the capacity issue becomes somewhat moot.

I'm still waiting from my EMPEG unit. Someday maybe I'll be able to get one.

Empeg may loose a few sales due to this player, but it's not going to be anything major. Most people who would even look at the empeg and the Aiwa player in the same light would turn the empeg down for price right away. But looking at the empeg for what it is reveals it never was in the same light. The empeg is in a class that has very few other competitors. Once the Mk. II ships and developers have some time with it alongside an API for the player, the empeg can safely be put into the CarPC category. I probably would have gone with a custom in car system if the empeg was just an MP3 player. But it can and will be so much more then that. If I were to put some time into it, I'm sure I could have a few of the features from the AutoPC from Clairon in the empeg.

So yes, I stand by my point that a $300 MP3 and radio only player at 10 hours max will not directly compete with the empeg CarPC MP3+other future format player.

Honestly, the true audio fan will see a player with 10x capacity of a CD, and one up to 800x, and turn the 10x one aside right away without any other features needing to be brought up.

My empeg site is:http://24.236.3.131/empeg/

I disagree. I don't think empeg will be classified as a Car PC. In fact, if it does, it will probably be defeated quite soundly. At this stage, just because it IS in fact a computer, does not mean it functions as one out of the box in consumer form. The AutoPC falls more squarely in this category. If it is classified as high end audio equipment, then it will be a leader in the category. For example, just because empeg is capable of road navigation, we do not want to push empeg as a navigational device in the same segment as Alpine's DVD navigation system because empeg will be discredited in a review. Basically give credit where its due but don't sell it as something its not. (at least not yet).

Calvin

I'm certainly not ruling out the player as the primary unit. what if there where a dumb terminal with HDs or CDs in suitable shock mountings elsewhere in the car?
This would enable maps to be upgraded quickly and open up other options.
Sure, this may not be seen as a problem with HD size sky rocketing, but we live in the age of options.

____________________________
Murray

Don't forget that your mom's going to need a CD burner, burning software, and someone to install it all for her and teach her to use it.

Hardware, software, and time considered, add $500.00 to the pricetags of devices like the Aiwa. Oh, don't forget the cost of CDRs (minimal, I know, but still tangible) and the fact that burners tend to be -very- temperamental.

So now it's roughly $800.00 vs. $1200.00. The benefits of the Empeg become more pronounced when you put it into this perspective...

-- Bleys

"If you would judge, understand." -- Seneca

I agree 100% with Calvin's assessment; it's right on target (for now).

-- Bleys

"If you would judge, understand." -- Seneca

Basically give credit where its due but don't sell it as something its not. (at least not yet).

But isn't that the point?
Ok, Alpine is developing a system of car management. But it is only Alpine developing it. The Open System of the Empeg allows much more freedom in development. Who is to say that The Empeg wont come out with DVD, GPS, etc? Alpine and others have been in the game for many years. Empeg is jumping in with a product which competes strongly in this catagory of car entertaiment and they are still just a baby company.

There are two fundamental differences between Alpine and Empeg though.
Their investments are in two separate catagories.

Alpine sells boxes. They offer some product support but most is delivered by local installer talent. For the most part (correct me if I'm wrong) they don't have the ability to simply upgrade functions of their products. You want more functionality? Buy a better box. It is entirely too difficult for Alpine and co to provide software letalone firmwhere updates for their products, because their company structure doesn't allow it readily.

Empeg sells software. They offer a box to put it in. but their company is into software development. Why did Hugo get the PSU in the orginal MP3car made by someone else? He even says he doesn't know hardware. bloody good job on the the Mk1 tho!! Empeg Offers Software and support for their hardware. Ease of upgrading is phenominal! If I wanted to get an Alpine player with the range of functions on the Empeg has made available, I would be buying a new player every 2 months.

Sure there are things which Empeg doesn't have available yet. but the key word is yet. As mentioned before most people look at the bang for the buck. and fundamentally it is "What do I get for my $1200?" Go to an Alpine dealer and ask the same question. Then do the comparison.
Then ask how much it will cost for the features which Empeg will be bringing out soon

Some people will always want a quick fix. They are not usually in this market.

____________________________
Murray