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Let him run right on by and then find out that he carjacked my uncle's car and murdered my uncle. Then corner him in a warehouse and facilitate a fall to his death out of a window. Then sew up a pretty cool superhero suit. Then kiss Mary Jane upside down.

I'm so glad I set my coffee down before I read this!

I was thinking something similar myself just before I got this far through the thread

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I know I'm a dork, and it's a pretty good movie regardless, but I always hated the way they changed these important events in the Spider-Man mythos.

Yeah, but are the comics really canon?

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We've had a case here in Northern England where a rapist was followed by two teenagers, who had heard the screams and cornered him...

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Hey, all I'm saying is with great power comes great responsibility. Jon could have run the guy down with his Segway.

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Also, Peter didn't even know Mary Jane this early, and they co-opted a very important (later) story line where the Green Goblin threw Peter's girlfriend off of a bridge. In that story line, the girlfriend, Gwen Stacy, died, possibly because of a broken neck as a result of Spider-Man trying to catch her with a webline.

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Joe Chill isn't supposed to die or get caught.

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This story in the Sun?

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Thoughts?

It's good you let him run right by. Getting into a fracas with someone (and the resultant time you'd have to spend with the cop answering questions) over a pair of clippers would have been a rather large waste of time. Heck, if I'd been the store clerk, I might have been hard pressed to even chase after the guy at all.

On the other hand, if he'd stolen someone's empeg or someone's guitar, and he was running by me, he wouldn't have left the scene alive.

Of course, you had no way of knowing which it was. Hard choice.

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if he'd stolen someone's empeg or someone's guitar, and he was running by me, he wouldn't have left the scene alive.

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We'd just had dinner and were going off to the mall.

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Flame all you want, but this is pathetic.

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Flame all you want, but this is pathetic.

I think heroism is great, and I think it would be great if we can all manage to have the presence of mind to be heroic when heroism is called for, but it seems like it doesn't always work out that way.

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Flame all you want, but this is pathetic.

I think heroism is great, and I think it would be great if we can all manage to have the presence of mind to be heroic when heroism is called for, but it seems like it doesn't always work out that way.

I don't think it's a matter of heroism. I think it's a simple matter of doing what's right.

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That cop *almost* had that perp in his grip when the Crown Vic's rev limiter kicked in. He has to go home and face his family. What does he tell them?

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Congratulations, you aren't a big talker. Like I said, I completely agree with the sentiment. You can call us all pussies if you want, which is exactly what you are doing, but I'm not a movie hero, and I can guarantee you that when faced with the choice of my life or saving a Walgreens from losing a $15 hair trimmer, you can bet your ass I'll chose not risking my life. And I think that what has changed is exactly that... the risk of losing life. If no one was walking around with a gun and all I might suffer is a broken nose or fist, then it's a whole other ballgame. I am guessing that you will take that as another "excuse" but it's a reality that a lot of us live in and see on a daily basis in big cities. It's not all black and white cut and dry, and if you play it that way you set yourself up for disaster and over-reaction. In my neighborhood, if I yelled at the thug at the bus-stop for dropping paper on the ground, I'd get beat the fcuk up, plain and simple. I've seen it happen. And I promise you, I would be beat down because A: I ain't a fighter... B: 5 teenage thugs will against my skinny ass isn't even a fight.

<sigh> So much to cover here. First, it isn't a matter of protecting Walmart from losing a hair trimmer. It's about expecting more from ourselves. It about doing the right thing, even if there is a risk. Second, I live in Denver, in the city, not the suburbs. I used to live in Columbus, Georgia, and I'm originally from the Syracuse area of NY. So I understand what you're talking about. But it doesn't matter. The point remains the same. I am a bit of a fighter (actually, it's more that I have a decent pain tolerance and I'm stubborn ) And hey, I've gotten my ass kicked before (once nearly to death... come to Denver and my friends and I can spin the tale for you over a beer), but again, it doesn't matter. You have to do what's right, Loren.

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But, I'm guessing there's a deeper gut thing at the root of this argument. Maybe you are the type of person who'd run to the front lines to do battle wherever and why ever your government tells you, whereas I'd be a draft dodger.

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Here's to idealism though... I wish we could all be as ballsy as you, because you are probably right. If we all did something in those situations, those situations would happen a lot less often. But in the end most of us just want to go home to our girlfriends/wives/wii and live to see another sunrise.

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PS - I'd like to hear the story behind the stitches... unless you've posted it before.

Which ones?

The one on my hand is from getting stabbed by a skinhead when I was 16 (they tend to dislike arguments that require heavy mental processing ), and I've got one on my right arm (nearly gone now) from scraping against some sheet metal while my friend Don and I were chasing down a guy who stole the tip jar from the coffeeshop we hang out at a few years ago.

Loren, I'm not calling any one a pussy for being scared. Being scared is a natural human response. Hell, that's why we have the amygdala (the Almond of AHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!) I'm just taking issue with the back slapping "you did the right thing" party. It's not the right thing.

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First of all, Jim, I don't know what people do in comic books. Not a fan.

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That cop *almost* had that perp in his grip when the Crown Vic's rev limiter kicked in. He has to go home and face his family. What does he tell them?

He tells them that, unlike a majority of people out there, he tried, rather than just shrugging his shoulders and saying "not my problem, not worth the risk."

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It just seems that you are a bit on fire over this. So much so that I could imagine that you voted for Republicans and the Tums haven't kicked in yet.

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I think the saddest thing about all of this is that, for once, Billy is absolutely right and I agree with him 100%. Everyone who advocates doing nothing should be ashamed of themselves. Moreover, they should never again lament the state of a world they're helping to create.

No wonder we have so much crime in America.

Kudos to Ladmo, Mark, Visuvius, and Boxer for knowing the difference between right and wrong, and more importantly, between civic duty and cowardice. Being scared of retaliation doesn't excuse you from your responsibility to your fellow man.

Flame all you want, but this is pathetic.

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It just seems that you are a bit on fire over this. So much so that I could imagine that you voted for Republicans and the Tums haven't kicked in yet.

Heh. Second time in less that 30 minutes that someone has suggested I'm a pro-gob'ment person or a Republican sympathizer just because I don't believe in burying my head in the sand and watching bad things happen. So tell me, what part of the Republican agenda does my desire to do the right thing align with?

As far as I can tell, they haven't been concerned with doing the right thing for quite some time.

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3) This BS incident in a parking lot is not a battle of good and evil. This is not The Lord Of the Rings or Germany vs. England in WWII. This is some punk (probably armed) running from a shopkeeper and a keystone cop! Do I really lack principles by not sticking my neck out for that situation?

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4) My favorite part of this thread is where Loren included the Wii in the list of significant others. In my case, he should have said "360."

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3) This BS incident in a parking lot is not a battle of good and evil. This is not The Lord Of the Rings or Germany vs. England in WWII. This is some punk (probably armed) running from a shopkeeper and a keystone cop! Do I really lack principles by not sticking my neck out for that situation?

Yes, you do in my opinion.

And how is it the punk is "probably" armed? Because he stole clippers? Because he was a man? Because he was in his "maybe early 20s"? Wait, is it because he was thin? Or was it the sweatshirt that increased the likelihood of being armed? The fact that he was running? Or was it that he was African American?

You have no good reason to assume he was armed. Any more than he had to assume you weren't.

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"I could imagine". Simply a sense of absolutist, Repub-style black-and-white versus the despised moral relativist "shades of grey'".

But your rmileage may vary!

I know, I know, "I could imagine" is a great way to say it and not be held to it.

The difference, Jim, is that I'm not trying to push my morals. I'm simply asking people to be true to theirs. If you don't think there's anything wrong with letting criminals go, then fine; we'd disagree, but that's it. But nearly everyone has made it (at least to me) clear that while they know it isn't necc. the right thing, it's better to not get involved. I think that's crap. And I think it's that kind of thinking that's seriously harming the country. Because people who think like that help crime go unpunished. And they help elect shit presidents by not organizing and doing everything in their power to get someone worthy in office. And then they whine about it. They care more about their shiny new video game system than they do about their civic responsibility. And that, Jim, is sad.

And we wonder how the wool is being pulled over our eyes.

Nobody is pulling it over our eyes... we're putting the bag on ourself.

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"I could imagine". Simply a sense of absolutist, Repub-style black-and-white versus the despised moral relativist "shades of grey'".

But your rmileage may vary!

I know, I know, "I could imagine" is a great way to say it and not be held to it.

The difference, Jim, is that I'm not trying to push my morals. I'm simply asking people to be true to theirs. If you don't think there's anything wrong with letting criminals go, then fine; we'd disagree, but that's it. But nearly everyone has made it (at least to me) clear that while they know it isn't necc. the right thing, it's better to not get involved. I think that's crap. And I think it's that kind of thinking that's seriously harming the country. Because people who think like that help crime go unpunished. And they help elect shit presidents by not organizing and doing everything in their power to get someone worthy in office. And then they whine about it. They care more about their shiny new video game system than they do about their civic responsibility. And that, Jim, is sad.

And we wonder how the wool is being pulled over our eyes.

Nobody is pulling it over our eyes... we're putting the bag on ourself.

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In the US, you should assume that EVERYONE is armed. Self preservation. It sounds like you have been lucky to have only gotten minor injuries for the trouble you've gotten yourself into. If one of those people that you tangled with WERE armed, you might not be arguing right now! Would you have been right? Maybe - but also dead.

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P.S. Found this on http://www.trivia-library.com/b/origins-of-sayings-live-to-fight-another-day.htm

The Saying: HE WHO FIGHTS AND RUNS AWAY WILL LIVE TO FIGHT ANOTHER DAY.

Who Said It: Demosthenes

When: 338 B.C.

The Story behind It: In August of 338 B.C., the Athenian orator and statesman Demosthenes was an infantryman at Chaeronea, where a great battle took place between the Athenians and the Macedonians. The Macedonians were victorious, and 3,000 Athenians died. Demosthenes fled from the battlefield and was subsequently censured because of his desertion. To anyone who later called him a coward, Demosthenes retorted, "The man who runs away may fight again." From that line is derived the modern day version "He who fights and runs away will live to fight another day."

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<sigh> So much to cover here. First, it isn't a matter of protecting Walmart from losing a hair trimmer. It's about expecting more from ourselves. It about doing the right thing, even if there is a risk.

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Second, I live in Denver, in the city, not the suburbs. I used to live in Columbus, Georgia, and I'm originally from the Syracuse area of NY. So I understand what you're talking about. But it doesn't matter. The point remains the same... but again, it doesn't matter. You have to do what's right, Loren.

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Loren.... you should (based on what I've had to say about politics on the board) that that is ridiculous. My roommate is still laughing from reading that line. Soooooo not how I'm wired. I would be there in Canada drinking a beer with you and Mark, unless I agreed with the war. (Hint: I don't.)

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It's not idealism unless you don't practice it. And it has nothing to do with being ballsy. Hell, sometimes I scare the hell out of myself, but I have to try to do what's right.

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Loren, I'm not calling any one a pussy for being scared. Being scared is a natural human response. Hell, that's why we have the amygdala (the Almond of AHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!) I'm just taking issue with the back slapping "you did the right thing" party. It's not the right thing.

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I know that I sound like a pansy to you. Maybe in the same situation, you'd act differently. More power to ya - good luck - hope your actions are successful, honestly!

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I see your point. It just irks me when someone makes black and white arguments out of something that clearly isn't. In this particular situation, if you think Jon should have done something, then that's all you have to say. But using this as an example of how everyone should ALWAYS do something when they see a wrong isn't reality, despite how much we'd all like it to be.

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I think Jon should have done something.

I think it is that black and white.

I think people should always stand up and say / do something when they see a wrong.

That's the reality I try to live by.

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That's the reality I try to live by.

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I think that maybe you are talking to a different Jim. A Jim I am not familiar with.

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If you've lived in any sort of urban environment, you know to not get involved in other peoples disputes.

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The Saying: HE WHO FIGHTS AND RUNS AWAY WILL LIVE TO FIGHT ANOTHER DAY.

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If it weren't for this cowardly attitude, three more flights would have gone down into empty fields on 9/11, instead of into their intended targets.

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IMO that's a bit unfair to the passengers of the other planes. It's hard to remember now, but before that day the idea of using hijacked planes as missiles wasn't really in the mind of the public.

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If you've lived in any sort of urban environment, you know to not get involved in other peoples disputes.

Moreover, you know not to initiate disputes... especially where they are not warranted.

How effective is the lesson of ranting at a litterbug?
It puts them on the defensive- difficult to teach them anything then.
Why not smile, say "Oh- that'll go right here", and pick it up without further communication and put it in the trash bin?

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Just like hinting that someone who does choose to act must be Republican, or would do whatever their government tells them to, etc, etc....

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Just like hinting that someone who does choose to act must be Republican, or would do whatever their government tells them to, etc, etc....

I just want to again make it clear that I wasn't hinting at either. I made the statement about "doing whatever their govm't tells them" simply because it struck me as one example of following ideals to an extreme. Poorly worded perhaps.

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In this context I meant following an ideal like patriotism or battling "evil".... or substitute any ideal where adhering to black and white extremes precludes seeing the gray areas and/or occludes other's definitions of the extremes. A statement such as "you should stand up for what is right, no matter what" strikes me that way.

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So are you saying you should sometimes not stand up for what is right? Not that it's sometimes dangerous, or unpleasant, but that sometimes standing up for what is right is not what you should do?

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I just don't agree with an idea such as that one should try and take down a guy pointing a gun in a shopkeepers face while he is stealing a pack of gum, and you are unarmed.

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I just don't agree with an idea such as that one should try and take down a guy pointing a gun in a shopkeepers face while he is stealing a pack of gum, and you are unarmed.

There's a difference between doing the right thing and being stupid. If there's nothing you can do, then there's nothing you can do. But if you can do something, then you should.

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I launched into a tirade against a little gangbanger a few weeks ago for just tossing his yogurt container on the ground at the bus stop.

This has been a fascinating thread, but I have one question... what sort of self-respecting gangbanger would be seen in public eating yogurt? What's next quiche?



That said, I think I agree with Loren -- there's a grey area that you're missing, somewhere. What if it had turned out that the kid had stolen some candy because his friend had gone into diabetic shock a couple blocks from the store, but didn't have any glucose tablets on hand? (My dad's been in a similar situation with a work-mate, though luckily, he had some sugar packets in the glove-box of his work truck.) Your stepping in to "do the right thing" in that scenario could potentially cost someone their life.

But it is important to do the right thing when possible. This weekend, I stopped a bunch of folks from throwing rocks over the edge of the Grand Canyon, directly over a busy trail.

Cheers,

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But it is important to do the right thing when possible. This weekend, I stopped a bunch of folks from throwing rocks over the edge of the Grand Canyon, directly over a busy trail.

Cheers,

This is exactly my point... You stopped people from doing something that was (a) wrong, (b) dangerous, and (c) detrimental to society (if only the society of hikers, etc). But this thread, until I posted, seemed to consist primarily of people cheering the exact opposite behavior. You could have very easily gotten beaten to death (by rabid Boy Scouts? ) for trying to stop people from throwing rocks over the edge of the Grand Canyon, but you still said / did something. That's the heart of what I'm saying. The early posts in this thread were all about "good job not getting involved!". Not, in my opinion, the most civically minded approach.

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So all you do-gooders on here - what would you do? Grab the baggie and call the cops? Tackle the guy? What?

Of course, I'm the destroyer of modern society - a man without morals, scruples, or principles - and I walked right on by...

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So all you do-gooders on here - what would you do? Grab the baggie and call the cops? Tackle the guy? What?

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... see a man (maybe early 20s, thin, sweatshirt, African American) running towards me...

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Why bother? It's just stuff

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... see a man (maybe early 20s, thin, sweatshirt, African American) running towards me...

Interesting. How did you know he was African American? If he were white would you have described him as such?

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... see a man (maybe early 20s, thin, sweatshirt, African American) running towards me...

Interesting. How did you know he was African American? If he were white would you have described him as such?

As far as your original question: I think you did the right thing. I don't think that stuff (i.e. the crap getting stolen) is EVER worth getting hurt over. Why bother? It's just stuff. If he was beating someone up, then do something, but if no one is in danger, who cares?

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... see a man (maybe early 20s, thin, sweatshirt, African American) running towards me...

Interesting. How did you know he was African American? If he were white would you have described him as such?

As far as your original question: I think you did the right thing. I don't think that stuff (i.e. the crap getting stolen) is EVER worth getting hurt over. Why bother? It's just stuff. If he was beating someone up, then do something, but if no one is in danger, who cares?

I KNEW someone was gonna say that! Yes, I was describing the situation. If he was white, I would have said that too! Would you have asked your question if I had described him as caucasion?

Mentioning someone's skin color is not racist.

- Jon

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I let him run right by.

Thoughts?

- Jon

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Mentioning someone's skin color (no matter what it is) when it makes no difference in the situation is racially motivated.

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Mentioning someone's skin color (no matter what it is) when it makes no difference in the situation is racially motivated.

So what do you call mentioning that the guy had on a sweatshirt, which also made no real difference?

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I can tell you don't agree with my opinions though.

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I can tell you don't agree with my opinions though.

I don't. I think that he was providing a description, and when we describe things we often include color, whether it be people, cars, whatever. The entire description is probably not important to the story; however, it helps give readers some picture of what happened, and THAT is simply good communication. To explicitly NOT include something in our description because we are afraid of being branded as "racially motiavated" is not a good thing.

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imagine if you had left his color out, then someone in the thread asked if he was white or black? Most people here would have reacted with "why does it matter?

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... see a man (maybe early 20s, thin, sweatshirt, African American) running towards me...

Mentioning someone's [sex] (no matter what it is) when it makes no difference in the situation is [sexual discrimination]. I'm NOT saying you are [sexist]. However, your situation does not warrant a description of [sex]. Height, weight, colour and age perhaps (because it's important if you were to get in a scuffle with him) however, his sex has nothing to do with his abilites to fight you or whatever.

Women have black (err... coloured) belts, too. And what's with the age discrimination? Does it really matter that he's early 20's, or late teens, or 30's, or 40's etc..?


Sheesh. What a bunch of politically correct bigots!

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And what's with the age discrimination? Does it really matter that he's early 20's, or late teens, or 30's, or 40's etc..?

No kidding. Did we learn nothing from Karate Kid?

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Just because you point out someone's race, it doesn't make you a racist. Here's a great example that illustrates my point perfectly.

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you have to differenciate (which apparently isn't a word) between using a racial slur as an intentional racial insult and plainly pointing out someone's color.

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... see a man (maybe early 20s, thin, sweatshirt, African American) running towards me...

Mentioning someone's [sex] (no matter what it is) when it makes no difference in the situation is [sexual discrimination]. I'm NOT saying you are [sexist]. However, your situation does not warrant a description of [sex]. Height, weight, colour and age perhaps (because it's important if you were to get in a scuffle with him) however, his sex has nothing to do with his abilites to fight you or whatever.

Women have black (err... coloured) belts, too. And what's with the age discrimination? Does it really matter that he's early 20's, or late teens, or 30's, or 40's etc..?


Sheesh. What a bunch of politically correct bigots!

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Oh boy, I really don't want to get into this discussion, but I'm too curious.

To those who are arguiing to always step in (Webroach, primarily), I have a question: when you're driving, do you drive the exact speed limit or less? Do you stay in your lane no matter how fast the people behind you want to go?

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The speed limit is one of those things where, depending on the context, it doesn't hurt anyone, and isn't really "wrong", aside from it being "against the law".

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I went to traffic school when I was a teenager, and the instructor insisted that every driver in the room should drive 55mph in every lane on 495. His point was that you should go 55 and show the other people on the road that they should go 55. This thread reminded me of that "lesson."

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Oh boy, I really don't want to get into this discussion, but I'm too curious.

To those who are arguiing to always step in (Webroach, primarily), I have a question: when you're driving, do you drive the exact speed limit or less? Do you stay in your lane no matter how fast the people behind you want to go?

Since canuckInLA already very eloquently explained what I see as the difference between "right / wrong" and "lawful / unlawful", I'll skip that part and merely say "No" and "No."

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Oh boy, I really don't want to get into this discussion, but I'm too curious.

To those who are arguiing to always step in (Webroach, primarily), I have a question: when you're driving, do you drive the exact speed limit or less? Do you stay in your lane no matter how fast the people behind you want to go?

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You didnt read my post very carefully. Sex, age, weight, height, type of clothing, makes a difference as to how someone had to deal with the person. A 15 year old female 85lbs would be a bit easier to take down than a 22 year old male 230lbs.

I'm not trying to be politcally correct, that has nothing to do with it. I'm trying to take care of the subconscious racial bias that exists.

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I went to traffic school when I was a teenager, and the instructor insisted that every driver in the room should drive 55mph in every lane on 495. His point was that you should go 55 and show the other people on the road that they should go 55. This thread reminded me of that "lesson."

I want to punch that guy and all his friends in the face. =p

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I went to traffic school when I was a teenager, and the instructor insisted that every driver in the room should drive 55mph in every lane on 495. His point was that you should go 55 and show the other people on the road that they should go 55. This thread reminded me of that "lesson."

I want to punch that guy and all his friends in the face. =p

+1

In California the signs say "Slower traffic keep right". Since nobody ever considers themselves to be 'less than' anyone else insofar as driving is concerned, few people actually drive in the lane they're supposed to.

I really want those words to be changed to "Keep right except to pass". That's what the signs say in Nevada. It's much more direct and doesn't require you to compare yourself with others. Besides, if everyone *behind* you is limited to your speed, you're not actually *slower* than they are! Grrrr.

Please, let's not start on traffic etiquette!

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I guess my question is, what is the behavior like where you live? Perhaps I can figure out if it's a regional thing, or an urban vs smaller town thing.

It's pretty much as you describe. It's not regional, it's not a urban vs. small town thing, it's simply a matter of people only being concerned for themselves, with no concern for the rest of the people in their community. So don't worry about thread-jacking, since that is exactly the problem that caused this thread.

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Not to threadjack, but I was noticing something the other day.

I'll take some of the blame for the tangent

As crazy as northern Virginians drive, they do pull over to let emergency vehicles pass. Always.

Now that you mention it, I don't remember the last time I saw a funeral procession...

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I guess my question is, what is the behavior like where you live? Perhaps I can figure out if it's a regional thing, or an urban vs smaller town thing.

In London, everybody seems really good at getting out of the way of emergency vehicles -- when they can, obviously.

However, I did once see a policeman have to get out of a police van (lights flashing, siren wailing) to tell someone to move their car forward into a junction (against a red light), so that the van could get past.

The other week, I was driving on the motorway when I saw an ambulance in the distance in the rear view mirror. I mentioned to the wife that I'd pull out of his way when he caught up with me. He didn't

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The bad thing is... I have stopped pulling over for emergency vehicles, and I feel guilty every time. If I do try to pull off, people just blow my doors off as they pass by.

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So what? You should still pull over.

Good point. I always considered it as driving with the normal flow of traffic, which around here means NEVER using a blinker, tailgating, and consistently having 3 or so people run every stop light. I should set the example and maybe after 15 years or so, they might get it. The funny , or sad, thing to me is that if people would just realize that if everyone followed the rules, everyone would get to their destination quicker. Things might change, but everyone thinks that they are the exception to the rule.

If there is road construction up ahead and the left lane is ending, pull over as soon as you can and the flow of traffic continues. If you do what you WANT to do, you drive as far as you can in the left lane and try to merge over at the last minute, snarling traffic for everyone behind you. While this doesn't directly affect you, the 187 people that did it in front of you certainly affected you.

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if everyone followed the rules, everyone would get to their destination quicker.

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You didnt read my post very carefully. Sex, age, weight, height, type of clothing, makes a difference as to how someone had to deal with the person. A 15 year old female 85lbs would be a bit easier to take down than a 22 year old male 230lbs.

I'm not trying to be politcally correct, that has nothing to do with it. I'm trying to take care of the subconscious racial bias that exists.

No offense, mate, but you are being politically correct. You're a victim of the thought police, aka Newspeak ala 1984. If you can control what people can say, then you can control what they can think. But banishing certain words or concepts that describe a perceived problem does not make that problem go away.

Here's a tidbit of factual info for you. Whites make up something like 80% of the US population, but they are responsible for only about 15% of the crime in the US. The rest of the slack is taken up mostly by blacks. Blacks are more likely to rob and assault you than whites, based on historical crime statistics in the US. So yes, mentioning that the POS thief was black is relevant.

And to me, getting rid of crime is more important than getting rid of a "subconscious racial bias". And in order to get rid of crime, you have to look at who is responsible for the bulk of it. Besides, if a certain group of individuals didn't commit a largely disproportionate amount of crime than everyone else, then there wouldn't be any "subconscious racial bias". And it's not just subconscious -- it's based on fucking facts.

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WOW. Thanks for the REALLY interesting factual information!!!

Do you think that black people commit crimes BECAUSE THEY ARE BLACK? Those statistics are total bullshit. POOR, disadvantaged, uneducated people commit the majority of the crimes in this country. Now you may want to ask, WHY are so many blacks living in poor areas in this country? Probably because of ignorant fools like you.

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You think that most of those people want to live there?

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his lesson included diagrams, like a shot of a four lane highway with cars side-by-side in each lane, all going 55. I would love to see that on an actual highway.

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Indians and other South Asians come to this country for its opportunity.

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You think those poor families have $87,300 lying around?

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You think that most of those people want to live there?

I think a lot of them have no problem living there.

Indians and other South Asians come to this country for its opportunity. They figure out how to get a Dunkin Donuts, 7-Eleven, or gas station franchises and make something of themselves and future generations.

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Indians and other South Asians come to this country for its opportunity.

You think it was free to come here? These people packed up their entire lives to come here, paying for a number of airline tickets, paying enough to get a Dunkin Donuts franchise, enough to buy or rent a building to house it in, etc. If you gave those poor Americans the same amount of money, they'd have the same opportunities.

Just as an example, the Subway franchise seems to be the foreigner franchise of choice down here. This link claims a Subway can be opened for "as little as $87,300", and goes on to comment that "costs are so low". You think those poor families have $87,300 lying around? The Dunkin Donuts franchise web site says "For Dunkin' Donuts store territories, minimum liquid assets is $650-750K and net worth of $1.2 - $1.5million depending on the markets. Some markets require a minimum number of units developed." They certainly don't have that kind of scratch.

Of course, none of this means that there aren't people out there that have no desire to improve themselves. Many of us have the ability to coast along and not be poor, but many don't.

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While there is a lot of laziness in poor communities (not that there's not also a lot of laziness in middle-class and rich communities, too), it's really hard to break the cycle of poverty when the best job you can get is working retail. A minimum wage job is under $11,000 a year, and there's unlikely to be any health insurance or paid time off in such a job.

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1) Live in a apartment - provided free by the government

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3) Free heath care at the local clinic - provided by the government

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We should make public services less appealing

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1) Live in a apartment - provided free by the government

The projects in my city are largely not free. In addition, getting a job doesn't increase your rent for 18 months, so you won't be taking in less money just because you started working.

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3) Free heath care at the local clinic - provided by the government

Free clinics are not run by the government, but they are largely open only during business hours and even then desperately understaffed, which means that people usually get sent away.

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See the Pound Cake Speech. I guess Bill Cosby (a black man) is also a fool.

I don't know if you're trying to be politically correct or if you're just burdened with a tremendous amount of white guilt.

I didn't look for anything to disprove Billy's "statistics," but I think it should be noted that I had to reason to doubt them. I know which neighborhoods to stay away from at night.

I think a lot of them have no problem living there.

Indians and other South Asians come to this country for its opportunity. They figure out how to get a Dunkin Donuts, 7-Eleven, or gas station franchises and make something of themselves and future generations.

Take a drive through Spring Valley, NY and you see black guys during all hours of the day on the street corner, drinking out of paper bags, and hanging out in bodegas. I know of no other community of people where such a large number of young males simply don't work.

Yeah, there are bad white neighborhoods, but I can only think of two within 100 miles of me. Every black neighborhood I can think of is considered bad, and not just by me. A glance at any local paper will let you know.

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his lesson included diagrams, like a shot of a four lane highway with cars side-by-side in each lane, all going 55. I would love to see that on an actual highway.

Your wish...