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Seriously, use American forces to create a ring around the middle east, letting none leave nor enter.

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helped middle eastern countries with military might

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How do you be diplomatic with a group that believes it's under mandate from deity to destroy you at any cost? Seems like it'd be difficult to find some give and take there.

Is there a diplomatic solution to that?

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How do you be diplomatic with a group that believes it's under mandate from deity to destroy you at any cost? Seems like it'd be difficult to find some give and take there.

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I know that Russia never got very far with them, but would we have been able to convert them to democracy?

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Did some of the citizens get the shaft? Yes, but there wasn't wholesale slaughter like there is now.

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It wasn't because the US was already in the area. They planned to attack Iraq before Afghanistan. Seeing at least some reasoning they went with Afghanistan first, but plans to take Iraq were there from the start.

I'd argue that the Iraq objective was there before the September 11th attacks on the trade center. That was the adminstration's opportunity. Sad.

I have to admit that my post contained more than the US RDA of wry sarcasm.

But there was definitely a core of seriousness as well.

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I know that Russia never got very far with them, but would we have been able to convert them to democracy?

As an Afghan I can tell you that no, you would not have been able to convert them to Democracy. Afghans will never be able to convert to democracy. Not just Afghanistan, but pretty much all the countries in the middle east are NOT ready for democracy. From cultural mores and attitudes to logistical issues, democracy will just not work there. Especially in Afghanistan.

I don't understand this belief that democracy is the ULTIMATE form of government. Isn't it a little arrogant to think that the way YOU do things is the BEST way to do things. Sure it works for us, but it doesn't work for them. The administration is starting to see that now in Iraq. Guess what? Iraq needed a bastard like Saddam to keep things in line. Did some of the citizens get the shaft? Yes, but there wasn't wholesale slaughter like there is now.

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Seriously, use American forces to create a ring around the middle east, letting none leave nor enter. Then let them fight it out for eternity, as they have for the duration of human existance. Quit playing at colonization, it's always been a dirty game.

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"I don't understand this belief that democracy is the ULTIMATE form of government. Isn't it a little arrogant to think that the way YOU do things is the BEST way to do things."

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As an Afghan I can tell you that no, you would not have been able to convert them to Democracy. Afghans will never be able to convert to democracy. Not just Afghanistan, but pretty much all the countries in the middle east are NOT ready for democracy. From cultural mores and attitudes to logistical issues, democracy will just not work there. Especially in Afghanistan.

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...because I do believe that democracies are the best form of government that we've come up with yet (not that it doesn't have its faults)

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Do they want to be lorded over by an authoritarian regime that tells them what to do? I mean, I seem to recall when the Taliban fell that there was a large amount of simple rejoicing, like women deciding not to wear burqas, or at least not such sever ones, men shaving their beards, and so on. It wasn't the hysterical reaction that seems to be so common in those situations, but more a feeling of relief at once again being able to express themselves.

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They may not have time to support a democracy, but the sure have time to rally in the streets if some cartoonist half the world away draws a cartoon about Mohammad!

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Heres a project: head down to Mexico City and hold a sign or wear a t-shirt depicting the Virgin Mary doing something obscene. Or go into some country village in Poland and depict the Pope as a pedofile. Then start counting the minutes before you get shot in the face.

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Heres a project: head down to Mexico City and hold a sign or wear a t-shirt depicting the Virgin Mary doing something obscene. Or go into some country village in Poland and depict the Pope as a pedofile. Then start counting the minutes before you get shot in the face.

Not the same situation at all. Instead, just post an editorial cartoon to the papers in Holland depicting those scenarios in graphic detail. Then observe that it doesn't cause worldwide rioting.

Cheers

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If religion is that important to the Muslim community, then the world needs to know that and respect it. We're a global humanity and will have to start getting along with our "neighbors" all over the world.

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The insight from visuvius is exactly what the world needs more of. It helps broaden our understanding and combat "terrorism", the instilling of terror, carried out by both radicals and the American government. (and hey, if we find out that various middle eastern cultures want to battle with each other forever, than we should let them)

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Of course, foreign terrorists will need to likewise extend a little understanding toward America, realizing that many of us do not support the democratic missionary work being done in Iraq. And there must be a reason that America supports Israel, but it's surely beyond what the government will let the citizens comprehend.

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[edit] Oh, and no level of "broadening our understanding" should try to justify NAMBLA and crap like that. Instead, we should extend the offer to understand that people involved seriously need help with their issues.

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As has been stated by others here, this is just plain wrong as far as Iraq goes. Further, its pretty much wrong as far as the overall muslim idealogy goes and it pisses me off to no end that the media and this administration have done everything in their power to make the American people and seemingly every Christian in the U.S. think that muslims are out to destory them. Have there been a handful of loons that said they want a Caliphate from Indonesia to Madrid? Yes? Just like there are a handful of loons that say they want the U.S. to be a Christian country.

"Under mandate of deity to destroy you at any cost". God damn. Enough is enough. Stop with the overly dramatic bullshit. I know it makes it easier for the administration to justify its foreign policy and I know it makes Christians feel nice and important like there is some holy war they are involved in. There is not. They just want you the F out of their countries, and they want the U.S. to stop blindly supporting Israel. Thats it. They don't hate your freedom. They don't give a shit about your freedom.

BTW, there have been Christians in the Middle East for centuries and they are vastly outnumbered by Muslims. These Christians are also dirt poor and powerless just like their Muslim counterparts. If Muslims were all under mandate from Allah to destroy Christians and nonbelievers at any cost, don't you think that they would have started with the Christians living next door? Do you really think they would start with the rather burly and heavily armed Christians coming from the most powerful military in the world? Or do you think they would start the genocide that you claim they've been mandated to carry out with the Christians living amongst them?