#294872 - 20/07/2007 14:09
Re: CF+Harddisk Hybrid..
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14492
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
It would be great if tags on the CF could make it faster to load large playlists. 1.03 rarely hesitated as much as 2.0, and maybe that's why.
I think the biggest win, though rarely used, will be database rebuilds. Those are dominated by seek times, which are reduced to zero on a CF device.
Well, I didn't do a perfect comparison, but here I was juggling two empegs yesterday, with nearly identical contents. I started a database rebuild on the single-HD player, and then later, at about 50% on the HD player, started a database rebuild on the dual-CF player.
They finished within about 4 seconds of each other, so the CF based player was around twice as quick as the HD based player. That's 24GB of tunes on each.
Cheers
Edited by mlord (20/07/2007 14:10)
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#294873 - 21/07/2007 23:22
A question about CF and RAM expansion
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
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How does using CF based disks impact the desirability of adding RAM to a player? (Mk2 or Mk2a)
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Glenn
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#294874 - 22/07/2007 11:14
Re: A question about CF and RAM expansion
[Re: gbeer]
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old hand
Registered: 07/01/2005
Posts: 893
Loc: Sector ZZ9pZa
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Quote:
How does using CF based disks impact the desirability of adding RAM to a player? (Mk2 or Mk2a)
Adding RAM to the player [1] increases the space available for the database, so you can have big disks with lots of music and [2] increases the amount of cache you have to keep hard drives spun down for longer. Oh yeah, also there is [3] more RAM available for 3rd party software.
[1] is irrelevant in a CF system as CF cards are simply not big enough (yet) to fill with enough music and make database size much of an issue. [2] is irrelevant in a CF system as its all solid state and fine for reading from while driving down a cobbled street. [3] is the only reason you'd want to upgrade the RAM in a CF Empeg I guess.
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#294875 - 22/07/2007 14:09
Re: A question about CF and RAM expansion
[Re: sein]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
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So with 1 & 2 NOT being an issue, can enough cache be freed to be useful for other tasks?
Or maybe the question should be, "What is the minimum amount of cache needed when using CF drives?"
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Glenn
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#294876 - 22/07/2007 20:52
Re: CF empeg: a question about building the disk.
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
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As one of the uninitiated, I didn't expect the builder to complete with an infinite stress test.
So,was pulling the power as I did safe?
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Glenn
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#294877 - 24/07/2007 01:12
Re: CF empeg with http://www.psism.com/adcf.htm#2-slot
[Re: gbeer]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
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I've completed my CF upgrade using the http://www.psism.com/adcf.htm#2-slot adaptor and the same 16GB CF that Mark found. Some items to note: - The first connector on the stock cable can't be used with this adapter. - The 3.5" connector isn't useful. I'll be desoldering all the pins soon. - I wound up mounting this at right angles. See pics. This has the advantage of making it easy to R&R the CF card or to add a second one when needed, without having to do more than pull the cover. Also the cable folds well without blocking the vents. [img]http://empegbbs.com/files/301875-cf.JPG/img]
Edited by gbeer (24/07/2007 01:15)
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Glenn
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#294878 - 25/07/2007 00:25
Re: CF empeg with http://www.psism.com/adcf.htm#2-slot
[Re: gbeer]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
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That's quite an upgraded player. Good work.
So, two CF cards per IDE adapter, two IDE adapters per empeg = 4 CF cards, yielding a total 64 gig solid state player? Take THAT iPod.
Then go nuts with remote VFD and the motherboard/CFs mounted in a slim case, and you've got quite a piece of hardware.
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- FireFox31 110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set
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#294879 - 25/07/2007 00:40
Re: CF empeg with http://www.psism.com/adcf.htm#2-slot
[Re: FireFox31]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
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I'm only following in others footsteps. As stated earlier in the thread the 4 CFdrive trick only works for Mk1 empegs. Mk2's only have a single ide bus so they max out with CF drives.
Edited by gbeer (25/07/2007 01:14)
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Glenn
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#294880 - 25/07/2007 01:39
Re: CF empeg with http://www.psism.com/adcf.htm#2-slot
[Re: gbeer]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
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BTW: The CF card is an A-DATA 16GB from Newegg for $131.99. Tax and shipping made it $146.55.
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Glenn
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#294881 - 01/08/2007 09:18
Re: CF empeg: a question about building the disk.
[Re: gbeer]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14492
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
As one of the uninitiated, I didn't expect the builder to complete with an infinite stress test.
So,was pulling the power as I did safe?
Yes. And for the same reasons that you can simply unplug an empeg at any time during normal operation.
Cheers
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#294882 - 01/08/2007 09:25
Re: A question about CF and RAM expansion
[Re: gbeer]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14492
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
So with 1 & 2 NOT being an issue, can enough cache be freed to be useful for other tasks?
Or maybe the question should be, "What is the minimum amount of cache needed when using CF drives?"
Probably about a megabyte or so; not verified.
One thing I noticed on our recent 3000km road trip, was that my 16MB player running v3alpha-11 s/w frequently never "spun down" the CF cards when playing high bitrate mp3 files. I probably have an unintended "ReserveCache=xx" line in there, copied by mistake from my 32MB player.
CF cards would be similarly suitable for FLAC playback, as that also never "spins down" the drives in use. But the cards need to get bigger first.
Cheers
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#294883 - 14/08/2007 09:03
Re: CF empeg
[Re: wfaulk]
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journeyman
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 59
Loc: Herts, UK
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So after reading the entire thread i am very impressed.
Empeg Mk2/Mk2a can have upto 32GB flash memory, using the single IDE, Master/Slave arrangement, with an IDE>CF Adapter.
Empeg Mk1 can have upto 64GB flash memory, using the dual IDE, with the dual IDE>CF Adapter.
Benefits are lighter, faster, more reliable, and easier backups, for the empeg.
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Getting Old.
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#294884 - 15/08/2007 01:45
Re: CF empeg
[Re: Nobbie]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
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That's with currently available cf of reasonable price.
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Glenn
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#294885 - 15/08/2007 10:19
Re: CF empeg
[Re: gbeer]
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journeyman
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 59
Loc: Herts, UK
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Its a shame that PC Engines won't ship to the UK for personal's. I think i've gonna try and convert mine to 16GB.
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Getting Old.
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#294886 - 15/08/2007 13:30
Re: A question about CF and RAM expansion
[Re: mlord]
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old hand
Registered: 09/01/2002
Posts: 702
Loc: Tacoma,WA
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Unrelated question to any IDE experts:
Would a CF Slot->IDE adapter be possible? Meaning could you theoritically make an adaptor to hook up an IDE cable to say a Digital Camera's CF connector, thus making your Camera able to write to a 2.5in Hard drive? Not sure why you'd want to do this but in the studio it could be practical.
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#294887 - 15/08/2007 15:48
Re: A question about CF and RAM expansion
[Re: siberia37]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
Unrelated question to any IDE experts:
Would a CF Slot->IDE adapter be possible? Meaning could you theoritically make an adaptor to hook up an IDE cable to say a Digital Camera's CF connector, thus making your Camera able to write to a 2.5in Hard drive? Not sure why you'd want to do this but in the studio it could be practical.
Theoretically, I'm sure you could do something like this, but like you say, why would you want to (neat-o factor aside)? I really doubt it would be practical in the studio -- cameras that are typically used in a studio setting are already capable of being tethered to a computer via USB or wireless.
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#294888 - 15/08/2007 16:32
Re: A question about CF and RAM expansion
[Re: siberia37]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
Would a CF Slot->IDE adapter be possible? Meaning could you theoritically make an adaptor to hook up an IDE cable to say a Digital Camera's CF connector, thus making your Camera able to write to a 2.5in Hard drive? Not sure why you'd want to do this but in the studio it could be practical.
CF cards can operate in two modes: "true IDE" mode, and, er, some other more memory-card-like mode. This means that a device using real IDE can always attach to a CF card, but not all devices that use CF cards can attach to real IDE. If the CF-using device can only use non-IDE mode, a hard drive won't work. Typically cameras use non-IDE mode: back in the Rio Carbon days, we used special "embedded" CF hard-drives which only understood true-IDE mode, produced specifically in order not to cannibalise sales of the higher-margin dual-mode consumer drives compatible with most cameras. The stitch-up, sorry, mark-up on the camera ones was so high that for a while the retail price of a whole 6Gb Rio Carbon was less than the retail price of a camera-compatible 6Gb CF drive.
Peter
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#294889 - 15/08/2007 18:38
Re: A question about CF and RAM expansion
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Quote:
Quote:
Would a CF Slot->IDE adapter be possible? Meaning could you theoritically make an adaptor to hook up an IDE cable to say a Digital Camera's CF connector, thus making your Camera able to write to a 2.5in Hard drive? Not sure why you'd want to do this but in the studio it could be practical.
CF cards can operate in two modes: "true IDE" mode, and, er, some other more memory-card-like mode. This means that a device using real IDE can always attach to a CF card, but not all devices that use CF cards can attach to real IDE. If the CF-using device can only use non-IDE mode, a hard drive won't work. Typically cameras use non-IDE mode: back in the Rio Carbon days, we used special "embedded" CF hard-drives which only understood true-IDE mode, produced specifically in order not to cannibalise sales of the higher-margin dual-mode consumer drives compatible with most cameras. The stitch-up, sorry, mark-up on the camera ones was so high that for a while the retail price of a whole 6Gb Rio Carbon was less than the retail price of a camera-compatible 6Gb CF drive.
The early models of the various devices with a HD CF inside actually had the standard IDE/CF firmware in them. Lots of people bought them up and ripped them apart for the drive. Eventually somebody somewhere got annoyed enough about this to change the firmware and/or the actual connection. The Seagate pocket HD USB drives were like this. The early ones had a standard CF inside but the later ones had a ribbon cable instead.
Even if you did bodge together this adapter, you'd still have to work out some way of powering the HD. I doubt the CF connector will supply enough power for a full sized HD.
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#294890 - 20/08/2007 09:08
Re: CF empeg
[Re: Nobbie]
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journeyman
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 59
Loc: Herts, UK
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I've just managed to get 2 CF->IDE adapters on Ebay for £10 delivered.
I was surprised to see lots of 16GB CF cards on the bay, but they come with a free adapter, so i'm assuming they are 2 8gb cards, and a dual CF adapter.
I've also just got some 8gb cards from ukdvdr, so for under £100 i'm going to try and convert my spare empeg to CF.
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Getting Old.
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#294891 - 20/08/2007 11:49
Re: CF empeg
[Re: Nobbie]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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The 16GB cards on ebay look like real 16GB cards to me. Given that they are being sold as ideal for digital cameras an adapter that combined cards wouldn't exactly be useful...
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Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#294892 - 21/08/2007 07:00
Re: CF empeg
[Re: andy]
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journeyman
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 59
Loc: Herts, UK
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I think the picture is photoshop'd, and you'll get 2 8gb cards, and a dual ide->CF. Apparently Samsung, but the pic shows no brands, etc. I'm happier with 2 warrantied 8gb's.
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Getting Old.
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#294893 - 21/08/2007 08:06
Re: CF empeg
[Re: Nobbie]
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addict
Registered: 11/01/2002
Posts: 612
Loc: Reading, UK
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LittleBlueThing
Running twin 30's
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#294894 - 21/08/2007 11:50
Re: CF empeg
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14492
Loc: Canada
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The two 16GB A-Data cards in my empeg came from eBay. CDN$150/each Buy-It-Now price, shipped from within Canada (to me in Canada). Quite reasonable at the time, and even still today.
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#294895 - 09/09/2007 17:21
CF empeg + batterys???
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
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I'm wondering if enough battery capacity can be wedged into a CF empeg to be useful?
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Glenn
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#294896 - 09/09/2007 19:38
Re: CF empeg + batterys???
[Re: gbeer]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14492
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
I'm wondering if enough battery capacity can be wedged into a CF empeg to be useful?
Mmm.. should be doable. I seem to recall measuring the HD empeg (single drive) at about 12W continuous draw, which means it could be powered by 10 x AA NiMH batteries for about two hours. The CF empeg should be lower power, but I have not measured it.
Cheers
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#294897 - 11/09/2007 08:34
Re: CF empeg with http://www.psism.com/adcf.htm#2-slot
[Re: gbeer]
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journeyman
Registered: 22/05/2004
Posts: 50
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Has anybody else thought about hacking in another ide channel on a mk2 player.
I've just been giving it some thought, and think it should be possible if we can find a couple of spare gpio pins. And make a modified ide cable (4 connectors but some of the control pins for the 2 new drivers would need to be diverted to new gpio pins).
Just a though, not sure what kernel changes would be required (Mark care to comment?)
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Mk2a 64mb 60gb
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#294898 - 11/09/2007 11:25
Re: CF empeg with http://www.psism.com/adcf.htm#2-slot
[Re: russell]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14492
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Has anybody else thought about hacking in another ide channel on a mk2 player.
I've just been giving it some thought, and think it should be possible if we can find a couple of spare gpio pins. And make a modified ide cable (4 connectors but some of the control pins for the 2 new drivers would need to be diverted to new gpio pins).
Just a though, not sure what kernel changes would be required (Mark care to comment?)
A single "spare" GPIO (or just plain Ouput) pin is enough to do this, possibly in combination with an inverter. The kernel change is trivial (for me).
The extra signal is best if routed over the existing IDE header. There are pins there that we don't currently need, so freeing one or two of those up is relatively easy.
Cheers
Edited by mlord (11/09/2007 11:26)
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#294899 - 11/09/2007 11:29
Re: CF empeg with http://www.psism.com/adcf.htm#2-slot
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14492
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
Has anybody else thought about hacking in another ide channel on a mk2 player.
I've just been giving it some thought, and think it should be possible if we can find a couple of spare gpio pins. And make a modified ide cable (4 connectors but some of the control pins for the 2 new drivers would need to be diverted to new gpio pins).
Just a though, not sure what kernel changes would be required (Mark care to comment?)
A single "spare" GPIO (or just plain Ouput) pin is enough to do this, possibly in combination with an inverter. The kernel change is trivial (for me).
Heck, for that matter, NO extra GPIO pin is needed if one is willing to add a tiny bit of extra (chip) logic onto the board. A small 4-bit mux, for example.
But even simpler, a tiny bit of rewiring (no new GPIO, no new chips) at the header and IDE cables could likely suffice --> just send a different address line to CS2 of each drive pair.
Cheers
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#294900 - 11/09/2007 12:46
Re: CF empeg with http://www.psism.com/adcf.htm#2-slot
[Re: mlord]
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journeyman
Registered: 22/05/2004
Posts: 50
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It's been quite a while since I've dealt with low level ide stuff. But i can't find any reference to a CS2 line. Only CS0 & CS1, wouldn't both of these need re-routing for the 2nd pair of drives?
Cheers
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Mk2a 64mb 60gb
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#294901 - 11/09/2007 13:34
Re: CF empeg with http://www.psism.com/adcf.htm#2-slot
[Re: russell]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14492
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
It's been quite a while since I've dealt with low level ide stuff. But i can't find any reference to a CS2 line. Only CS0 & CS1, wouldn't both of these need re-routing for the 2nd pair of drives?
Yeah, faulty memory here. They were originally called CS1 and CS3, back in the days when IDE shared some address decoding with the floppy controller.
Now they're CS0 and CS1. In theory, we need to reroute different address lines from the CPU to both of CS0 and CS1 for each group of two drives. In practice, we might get away with only CS0 done that way, sharing CS1. But both is better.
Cheers
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