#295959 - 28/03/2007 21:47
Considering a Mac purchase
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enthusiast
Registered: 30/12/2000
Posts: 249
Loc: Dover, NJ
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I never thought I'd be one to join the ranks, but some of the developments from Apple over the past year or two have me now considering whether I might be better served picking up a new Mac. I'm hoping some input here will help me decide one way or the other. It isn't that I haven't bought Apple before... back when I had more money than sense I picked up the G4 Cube, but that was no doubt more out of the novelty of the item than any kind of practicality. I had it on my desk for month beside my Windows box, and eventually put it away when I couldn't find a use for it. I couldn't find Mac software that I didn't like less than the Windows counterparts I was using at the time. I probably never would have again considered spending money on an Apple PC had it not been for two major shifts: first, OS X with it's unix-based underbelly (and my growing involvement with unix-based platforms over the years); second, the move to Intel processors and the corresponding benefits to virtualization and such. When I watched a coworker with a MacBook Pro running XP in Parallels, the gears started turning. In my home office now I run a Windows XP machine side-by-side with a Fedora Linux box. XP is my main system, which I use mainly for PHP development, email, web, IM, playing tunes, World of Warcraft, etc. The Linux box holds my music collection (which I keep rsynced with my Empeg), runs SlimServer, keeps a working copy of code (via Subversion) and provide a more comfortable environment for command line tasks than a terminal window in Windows would. I am now wondering if a Mac Pro could replace my Fedora box running those apps natively, run an XP workstation in Parallels to replace the need for a separate Windows box, and give me an environment to try out the Mac OS and apps again... all at the same time. So for those who have some exposure to OS X & Parallels, can you tell me if this would fly? My primary concern is that Windows in VM would turn out to be frustrating compared to the Windows experience I'm used to. I must be in the minority, but I have never had a problem with XP. I wouldn't say I'm pro-Microsoft in an ideological sense, but I'm a fan of the OS and I consider it to be the first solid release of Windows in the company's history. Common sense and a little help from NOD32 has always kept me free of virus problems and most spyware trouble, and anything that did manage crop up was cleaned off the system easily enough. It's always been stable, performance perfectly fine and I've never had trouble with compatibility. If XP in Parallels turns out to be sluggish, or its functionality limited, or in any other way shit doesn't work the way shit is supposed to I would rather stick with what I have now. Other random questions or concerns: * Wondering if there's a GOOD app for web development for OS X. It's hard enough to find one on Windows (and I've tried quite a few editors) where there's a much larger selection of them. * NOD32 isn't available for Mac. Drat. * Is there any difference between playing WoW on PC and on Mac? Would it run okay on XP in a Parallels installation? * Is it a bad time to invest in a new Mac Pro? Some might suggest so (such as http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/ ). If I bought one, and a week later Apple announced immediate availability of new machines with high def optical drives or 8-core processing or some other cool innovative thing, that would be sad. Also, perhaps there's a compelling reason I'd want to wait and have it packaged with Leopard (I would think a later upgrade would be perfectly fine - but then I'm not a Mac expert) * Would I still have to rely on Samba or other network-based services to share a filesystem between OS X and Windows in Parallels? I expect it's so. * Would all of the various mouse buttons still work in Windows? The little things count. * Will running Apache/PHP/MySQL on OS X work as well as it does on my Fedora box now? * Is package management on the Mac pretty sweet? Installing and removing software, finding dependencies, etc. Feedback appreciated 
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- Chris
Orig. Empeg Queue position 2
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#295960 - 28/03/2007 22:06
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: cwillenbrock]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
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Only a reply to a very small bit of your question, but Parallels shared folders don't seem to be Samba or similar (ie, that part has always worked no matter how strange I've made my virtual network setup...)
For me my Mac Pro works really well; so well that I actually only turn my PC on once a month or so. I have Parallels & XP for running some work tools (ARM Realview JTAG and Cadence Allegro PCB viewer) but it turns out that I don't actually need to use a windows box as often as I thought I did.
Hugo
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#295961 - 28/03/2007 23:31
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: altman]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/01/2002
Posts: 1649
Loc: Louisiana, USA
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Quote:
Cadence Allegro PCB viewer
I take it Apple uses Allegro?
Stu
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If you want it to break, buy Sony!
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#295962 - 28/03/2007 23:37
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: cwillenbrock]
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addict
Registered: 23/01/2002
Posts: 506
Loc: The Great Pacific NorthWest
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I just bought a Macbook and love it. This is one fine laptop. Parallels seem to run XP and Ubuntu without a hitch. I can use a shared folder or just drag files from one OS to another. It boots up and shuts down like lightening. Every XP appliction I have ran has worked flawlessly. The single button under the touchpad requires you to hit ctrl-shift-mousebutton to mimick the right mouse button but a two button mouse is suppose to work fine. I can reach the shared drives on my network without any trouble and setup was a cinch. I am not a developer but for the simple things I do it has work perfect. I don't think I'll ever go back. Due to the integrated graphics I don't use it for FPS gaming but that was not my intention when I bought it. This is a Macbook not a Macbook Pro. For my needs I couldn't justify the extra cost. I just got done replacing the 80GB drive with a 120 using Superduper!. The process was painless and took less than two hours. You simply use an external firewire drive to clone your drive to and then clone it back to the internal drive once you have installed it. The Macbook can boot from an external firewire drive. SuperDuper! is free!
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No matter where you might be, there you are.
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#295963 - 29/03/2007 00:13
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: Neutrino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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CTRL-SHIFT + Mouse button? It's supposed to be just CTRL. Or you should be able to just put down two fingers on the pad and press the button to mimick a right-click. Last I heard Apple now supported that feature on newer models (older ones (2004+ PowerBooks) have to use third party software to accomplish the same thing).
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#295964 - 29/03/2007 00:53
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: hybrid8]
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addict
Registered: 23/01/2002
Posts: 506
Loc: The Great Pacific NorthWest
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Ctrl or Ctrl+Mouse don't work but 2 fingers+mouse does, thanks Bruno!
I really like the 2 finger scrolling under OS X!
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No matter where you might be, there you are.
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#295965 - 29/03/2007 01:18
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: cwillenbrock]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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To me, I can't see enough of a difference to notice between Windows running in Parallels and Windows being booted on my MacBook Pro. Parallels taps into the Intel VT extensions, so it's quite smooth. The only limit on Parallels pretty much is lack of Direct3D hardware acceleration. You can use USB devices only in Windows without a problem, and it can sit on the network as if it were a second computer plugged into a switch. Quote:
* Wondering if there's a GOOD app for web development for OS X. It's hard enough to find one on Windows (and I've tried quite a few editors) where there's a much larger selection of them.
Can't really answer this one, haven't done any serious web development in ages now. Dreamweaver does run on OS X, but no idea if you like that, nor how well it runs
Quote:
* NOD32 isn't available for Mac. Drat.
No need for it. Either the platform is too obscure for people to target, or the security built in is working. Either way, I've never run an AV client on my Mac and don't feel a strong need to either.
Quote:
* Is there any difference between playing WoW on PC and on Mac? Would it run okay on XP in a Parallels installation?
WoW is identical between Windows and Mac, down to using the same install discs, same addons, same file structure, and such. You can even move your settings back and forth. WoW (and any other 3d game) won't run via Parallels. It can run if you dual boot to Windows though.
Quote:
* Is it a bad time to invest in a new Mac Pro? Some might suggest so (such as http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/ ). If I bought one, and a week later Apple announced immediate availability of new machines with high def optical drives or 8-core processing or some other cool innovative thing, that would be sad. Also, perhaps there's a compelling reason I'd want to wait and have it packaged with Leopard (I would think a later upgrade would be perfectly fine - but then I'm not a Mac expert)
Yes, wait. NAB is a pro media convention coming up in mid April and Apple has some announcements in the wings. This tends to be the time when they show off the machines to get the Final Cut Pro users drooling, and a new Mac Pro would do it. Hopefully a street date will be announced for Leopard too. Typically once a date is announced, buyers of the current hardware get the next OS for the cost of shipping.
Quote:
* Would I still have to rely on Samba or other network-based services to share a filesystem between OS X and Windows in Parallels? I expect it's so.
Depends on how you want to share files. Parallels has it's own link between the two OSes, and you can also drag and drop files between Windows in Parallels and the Mac side.
Quote:
* Would all of the various mouse buttons still work in Windows? The little things count.
Yes. And right click opens context menus on OS X, and other buttons can be bound to various functions. Apple even ships a multi button mouse with the desktops, and the laptops all support right clicking on the trackpad too.
Quote:
* Will running Apache/PHP/MySQL on OS X work as well as it does on my Fedora box now?
Likely even easier to deal with. Out of the box Apache is turned on via one checkbox in the system preferences, and PHP is right there too. Adding MySQL can be done from source, or from an installer package, or via DarwinPorts. Tons of useful info via a quick google search.
Quote:
* Is package management on the Mac pretty sweet? Installing and removing software, finding dependencies, etc.
See DarwinPorts above for the pure unix stuff. It works similar to yum/apt/emerge. OS X side, it's easier. Most apps install via a simple drag and drop(even Microsoft Office), and some use the built in installer system. Uninstall is typically drag and drop to the trash, though more work might be needed to nuke support files in /Library. Nothing real difficult.
I'm planning on pushing for a Mac Pro at work shortly to throw under my desk to replace a Mac Mini, Windows PC and Linux box. The only major hassle so far with the Mini at work has been a typical BOFH who doesn't turn on IMAP on Exchange for unknown reasons, and also claims to have to investigate security issues with the OWA and URLScan tool. (aka, he didn't RTFM when he installed the URLScan tool into IIS and it broke OWA).
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#295966 - 29/03/2007 13:30
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
also claims to have to investigate security issues with the OWA and URLScan tool
Jesus. What an idiot. It's blatantly obvious that it's just trying to protect people from using ".." to go up a directory level via HTTP. All he has to do is match m#(/\)\.\.+(/\)# (that is, either slash followed by two or more periods immediately followed by another slash) and it will solve your problem and leave the system as secure as it was before.
URLScan seems like a reasonable tool with stupid defaults. I hate it when admins install tools without understanding what it is they do, especially when they're security-related.
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Bitt Faulk
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#295967 - 29/03/2007 17:39
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: cwillenbrock]
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enthusiast
Registered: 30/12/2000
Posts: 249
Loc: Dover, NJ
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The more I look around, the more it seems that nobody who does what I do suggests doing what I'm suggesting. I imagine there's good reason for that. I'm hearing from creative types who use Mac software for graphics or video, I'm hearing from people who really just don't like Microsoft, but I'm not hearing from software developers or sysadmin folk who find any advantages at all on the Apple platform. My considerations were based on the idea that there might be Mac software I would discover and love, but it seems more like I'd need to be a musician or an artist to appreciate the Mac.
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- Chris
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#295969 - 29/03/2007 17:44
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: cwillenbrock]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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For a Unix sysadmin, it's wonderful. It gives you an easily usable desktop OS where you can run MS Office if need be, but also gives you tools to make Unix admin easy. Try scripting something on a Windows machine. Of course, you can always log into some other machine to do what you need, but that's always a bigger pain than just using your local machine.
Virtually everything that runs on a Unix machine will run on MacOSX, plus, most everything that you need on those occasions where you "need" a Windows machine will run under MacOS, and those few times where even that won't work (Outlook, I'm looking in your direction), you can run it under Parallels. (I don't use Parallels ATM, as I'm still stuck on PPC Macs, but I have yet to hear anyone say anything bad about it.)
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Bitt Faulk
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#295971 - 29/03/2007 19:07
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: cwillenbrock]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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Well, there's XCode and Eclipse... I'm not really a software developer, so I can't say much more than that.
As a person familiar with unix, I love OSX. Just about everything is done The Right Way. When I first got my mac, I wanted to know what my ip address is. Typing ifconfig in the terminal window produced the exact output I wanted. Just about any standard unix tool is either installed by apple, or easily available through darwin ports.
My OSX install is over two years old. It was the first OSX install I'd ever really used. When I started, I figured, OK, I'll trash this install and reinstall in two months when I know what I want. I installed anything, messed with anything I wanted, and it's worked perfectly ever since.
I've spend the last week working on The Ultimate Imaging Solution(TM) for our lab. You don't realize how "nice" apple is to sysadmins until you discover that you can boot the damn things from a USB drive that has a full install of OSX on it. In the windows world, I'd be making coaster after coaster of BartPE disks, which only had some of the software I needed. My goal for imaging is to simply network boot the machines and end up with dual boot windows/mac machines with no intervention.
I can't imagine you'll regret buying one. I'd certainly wait for NAB to buy a mac pro, they're due for an update, and it's properly timed for quad core processors and a Leopard announcement.
Matthew
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#295972 - 29/03/2007 19:26
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: matthew_k]
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enthusiast
Registered: 30/12/2000
Posts: 249
Loc: Dover, NJ
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Well that's some good feedback, I'd say.
I've tried Eclipse on Windows and didn't care for it. I don't need a cross-platform, bulky, slow, do-everything app in times I just want to get some PHP written. I don't really need a full-on IDE for doing scripting...I just want something fairly lightweight that has all the features I like out of an editor. I don't know anything about XCode, tho.
At the moment I'm using EngInSite Editor for PHP because it's got some nifty features I haven't seen in other apps, especially the navigator pane. It is, however, a very bulky IDE and buggy and an unending source of frustration for me. Once in a while I'll spend a day installing and trying out a handful of other code editors, but I've gotten spoiled by the cool things in Enginsite. But I digress.
At the very least, I'm starting to feel comfortable that a Mac Pro will do very well at replacing the Linux machine in my office, and taking on what (relatively little) I have that machine doing. If I use it for a while and decide that's all it does as well as my current setup and I still end up running it side-by-side with my Windows machine, it'll end up being a very very costly replacement for a dirt-cheap Linux box.
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- Chris
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#295973 - 29/03/2007 19:33
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: matthew_k]
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enthusiast
Registered: 30/12/2000
Posts: 249
Loc: Dover, NJ
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Quote:
I'd certainly wait for NAB to buy a mac pro, they're due for an update, and it's properly timed for quad core processors and a Leopard announcement
Anybody have any ideas on about how much time there is usually between a product announcement from Apple (say, if they were to announce quad core processor machines) and when they start shipping?
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- Chris
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#295974 - 29/03/2007 19:51
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: cwillenbrock]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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It sounds like SubEthaEdit is what you're looking for. I don't have a lot of experience with it, but it's worth checking out. Also check out TextMate, Smultron, and TextWrangler.
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Bitt Faulk
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#295975 - 29/03/2007 19:59
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: cwillenbrock]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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Quote:
At the very least, I'm starting to feel comfortable that a Mac Pro will do very well at replacing the Linux machine in my office, and taking on what (relatively little) I have that machine doing. If I use it for a while and decide that's all it does as well as my current setup and I still end up running it side-by-side with my Windows machine, it'll end up being a very very costly replacement for a dirt-cheap Linux box.
If you decided it wasn't worth it as an OSX box, you could easily use it as a well designed, very fast windows computer. It's a great deal for what it is, the processors they put in that thing are amazing.
Matthew
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#295976 - 29/03/2007 20:02
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: cwillenbrock]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
I picked up the G4 Cube
Do you still have that G4 Cube?
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#295977 - 29/03/2007 20:07
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: mlord]
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enthusiast
Registered: 30/12/2000
Posts: 249
Loc: Dover, NJ
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Quote:
Quote:
I picked up the G4 Cube
Do you still have that G4 Cube?
I do. In fact I just unpacked it and set it up to prep it for whatever (undetermined) fate it has outside of my apartment.
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- Chris
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#295978 - 29/03/2007 21:36
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: cwillenbrock]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
The more I look around, the more it seems that nobody who does what I do suggests doing what I'm suggesting. I imagine there's good reason for that. I'm hearing from creative types who use Mac software for graphics or video, I'm hearing from people who really just don't like Microsoft, but I'm not hearing from software developers or sysadmin folk who find any advantages at all on the Apple platform.
Well, if your doing non MS (ASP, .net) web development, I'd say it's a very attractive platform. You get all the benefits of a good desktop OS, and the power of Unix in one nice package. Doing PHP work on my Mac was way easier then Windows, since all I had to do is check one box to turn on Apache, then just edit files in ~/Sites/ . No need to FTP/SCP the files elsewhere, I just hit save in my editor and refresh in my browser.
Macs have been more then glorified Photoshop boxes for a while now. It's just taking a bit for people to realize it. Hell, some companies are even embracing the server side of OS X, by slapping in XServes to replace both Windows and Unix services, from distributed authentication to e-mail and collaboration. Before I left the HP storage team, I knew of several small companies and even a large one running XServes and OS X.
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#295979 - 29/03/2007 22:15
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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My little TV station is built on OS X, I have 8 xserves running Xsan and a couple dozen or so clients on Mini's and G5 towers. In fact our parent company got hit by a couple of viruses today and while every other division was falling apart we were chugging along happily. I ended up leaving work at 21:30 tonight after patching the few Windows 2000 machines we have, whilst our newspaper arm was pulling an all-nighter to get an edition out for the following day.
I'm sure the day will come when an OSX virus shows it's head. But until that day I will remain smug. In fact, it's added more fuel to the debate about replacing everybody's desktop PC with a Mac.
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Cheers,
Andy M
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#295980 - 30/03/2007 01:23
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: drakino]
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enthusiast
Registered: 30/12/2000
Posts: 249
Loc: Dover, NJ
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Interesting...I'm surprised to learn that there are people out there taking Mac servers seriously. I've never looked into it myself, so I just wouldn't know...but I haven't yet personally run across anybody using them.
Presuming they're more expensive than your average server (it is Apple after all) can someone suggest what advantages set them apart? Why would someone choose an Apple server over less expensive hardware and an open-source OS?
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- Chris
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#295981 - 30/03/2007 01:51
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: cwillenbrock]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
Presuming they're more expensive than your average server (it is Apple after all) can someone suggest what advantages set them apart? Why would someone choose an Apple server over less expensive hardware and an open-source OS?
Actually, Apple servers tend to be cheeper then the same equipment from HP, Dell, and the other main vendors for the same type of server. Same goes for the Mac Pro line, and most of the other Apple products. The one area where Apple doesn't compete is the sub $600 market on desktops, hence the belief that Apple products cost more. When I bought my MacBook Pro when it was introduced, it was on par with the prices from other vendors for the new Core Duo based systems.
The servers with OS X is way cheeper then Windows by far. As far as vs something like Linux, I suppose people would pick it for the out of box ease of setup. OS X Server comes with some nice management tools, allowing people to set up services without having to know their way around the unix underpinnings and package management. This page links to several videos showing off the upcoming 10.5 server, and it shows a lot of the ease of use, and power built into the server os.
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#295982 - 30/03/2007 06:40
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: cwillenbrock]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
The more I look around, the more it seems that nobody who does what I do suggests doing what I'm suggesting. I imagine there's good reason for that. I'm hearing from creative types who use Mac software for graphics or video, I'm hearing from people who really just don't like Microsoft, but I'm not hearing from software developers or sysadmin folk who find any advantages at all on the Apple platform.
On the Apple platform? no. On Apple hardware, yes. The Mac Pro makes a very good, cost-competitive vs Dell, beautifully-made, near-silent, high performance Linux box. When I got it I thought it was sort-of neat that it came with MacOS -- he who dies with the most operating systems wins, right? -- but in fact it's spent maybe a couple of hours running MacOS since I got it, and all the rest of the time running Linux.
Peter
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#295983 - 30/03/2007 06:47
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: cwillenbrock]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
Anybody have any ideas on about how much time there is usually between a product announcement from Apple (say, if they were to announce quad core processor machines) and when they start shipping?
With Apple, it depends a bit on how innovative the product is. In this particular case, where they're just plugging new chips that clearly already exist, into a machine that also clearly already exists, I'd expect them to already be shipping by the time the press embargo expires.
Peter
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#295984 - 30/03/2007 06:54
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: mlord]
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veteran
Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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Quote:
Do you still have that G4 Cube?
Elaine is still using ours as her main home machine - but it might be getting time to do an upgrade.
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#295985 - 30/03/2007 12:29
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
The servers with OS X is way cheeper then Windows by far. As far as vs something like Linux, I suppose people would pick it for the out of box ease of setup.
There is actually a lot to be said for having a common vendor for OS and hardware. While Linux will run on virtually every Intel server platform out there, it can be difficult to figure out how to get it to support all the fancy hardware features on the server that work out of the box on the Windows OS supplied with it. The same can be said for commercial Unix servers. But Apple does provide a relatively low-cost server with those hardware features with a bundled OS that knows how to deal with the hardware and it also usable. I guess what I'm saying is that Apple is now your low-cost Unix server vendor.
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Bitt Faulk
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#295986 - 30/03/2007 13:03
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
There is actually a lot to be said for having a common vendor for OS and hardware. While Linux will run on virtually every Intel server platform out there, it can be difficult to figure out how to get it to support all the fancy hardware features on the server that work out of the box on the Windows OS supplied with it.
s/ supplied with it / pre-installed on it /, and even that is doubtful.
Linux nowadays is *way* easier to get working from a fresh install than Windows on most server hardware. No special drivers to hunt for / install, no network server apps to purchase and install, etc.. No pesky licensing risks or fear of a BSA "audit". It all just works from a single fresh install.
Cheers
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#295987 - 30/03/2007 13:22
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I'm talking about advanced non-standard hardware features like management features and hardware diagnostic features that rely on proprietary software to understand. These are extraneous when simply talking about computing, but when managing a large number of servers, they can be invaluable.
Not that I'm claiming I like Windows. I don't. I'd rather have a Linux or other Unix server without those management features than a Windows server with them. I'm just pointing out that you're paying for those hardware features and you're either going to spend a lot of time getting them to work or you're not going to get them to work at all.
Edited by wfaulk (30/03/2007 13:27)
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Bitt Faulk
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#295988 - 30/03/2007 14:14
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
Linux nowadays is *way* easier to get working from a fresh install than Windows on most server hardware. No special drivers to hunt for / install, ... It all just works from a single fresh install.
It's easier depending on what you are used to. Linux is still very intimidating for some people out there to run in production. Sure, the pretty Linux GUI on install might be nice and easy, and it could even be followed up by somewhat decent looking tools for keeping it all together once you have it installed, but the facade usually fades away quickly, and unless you know the command line world and /etc, it becomes unmanageable.
And on servers, there are quite a few special drivers to hunt for with both Windows and Linux. SAN hardware is a big one that introduces a ton of driver fun for either side. And as Bitt already said, out of the box, no Linux distro includes the hardware management drivers for servers, though nor does Windows. Having these can make the difference between the box kernel panicking/blue screening in the corner and no-one noticing, vs having the box panic, self reboot once, panic again, then sending an alert out to the sys admin via the integrated management card that something is wrong.
With the Proliants that I worked with, installation of either OS was pretty much the same. Boot off HP CD or go into RAID bios and set up storage. Boot off OS CD and install. Insert HP CD again, install driver package. So even for Linux servers, its important to choose a good vendor.
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#295989 - 30/03/2007 18:33
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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I suppose people would pick it for the out of box ease of setup.
This is particularly true in my line of work, we have a stack of Avid workstations running on Dell PC's. Even when we buy machine with Avid approved components it's usually hit and miss getting it going in the first place. There's driver versions, hardware configurations, settings to tweak, etc.
The Macs running Final Cut however work right out the box. Unpack the hardware, finalise the OSX install, install FCP, run a Software Update and it's good to go.
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Cheers,
Andy M
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#295990 - 02/04/2007 00:54
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: cwillenbrock]
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enthusiast
Registered: 30/12/2000
Posts: 249
Loc: Dover, NJ
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Quote:
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I picked up the G4 Cube
Do you still have that G4 Cube?
I do. In fact I just unpacked it and set it up to prep it for whatever (undetermined) fate it has outside of my apartment.
...any particular reason you asked?
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- Chris
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#295991 - 02/04/2007 00:59
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: cwillenbrock]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I picked up the G4 Cube
Do you still have that G4 Cube?
I do. In fact I just unpacked it and set it up to prep it for whatever (undetermined) fate it has outside of my apartment.
...any particular reason you asked?
Oh, apologies for the altzheimers'.. I thought I'd already replied again!
Just mulling things.. I've always been fond of the cube, and was idly thinking about maybe getting one someday. But no, a mini would do better now.
Cheers
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#295992 - 02/04/2007 09:53
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: mlord]
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enthusiast
Registered: 30/12/2000
Posts: 249
Loc: Dover, NJ
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Fair enough.
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- Chris
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#295993 - 04/04/2007 18:30
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: cwillenbrock]
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enthusiast
Registered: 30/12/2000
Posts: 249
Loc: Dover, NJ
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OK well... with the feedback I've been getting and today's release of the 8-core Mac Pro, I'm pretty much sold. So now it's just a matter of ironing out the configuration details...
Is there any configuration option on the Mac Pros that I can't do myself at a later time for less money? Hard disks and memory should obviously be a cinch (though I'm curious to know if third-party RAM upgrades work as well, esp. with regard to thermal issues).
If I'm buying a $4k computer, should I spend the $250 for the AppleCare Protection Plan 3 year warranty? I don't know much about servicing Apple machines yet, so I don't know the reliability and managability of Macs (or possible lack thereof) would require it.
I think that will just about do it for me. Thoughts?
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- Chris
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#295994 - 04/04/2007 20:19
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: cwillenbrock]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Keep in mind the Mac Pro uses some very high end memory, known as FB-DIMM. Third party stuff might be slightly cheeper then Apple charges, but make sure you get ones with proper heatsinks. FB-DIMM's generate a lot of heat. Hard drives, any SATA one will work. The Mac Pro comes with 4 bays, and 3 will ship with empty brackets. Simply buy a SATA hard drive and put it in the bracket, and you should be set. And yes, buy the AppleCare plan to extend the warranty to 3 years, if you think you will own it more then one year. While the general reliability is good, if something like the mainboard dies, it's not going to be a cheep expense to fix. You can wait and buy it later though, as it is valid as long as it is activated during the first year of ownership. Also, it is heavily discounted for students, so if you have a college friend, they could help save you a bunch of money.
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#295995 - 04/04/2007 20:52
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: cwillenbrock]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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Wow 8 cores on a desktop, that's just crazy. I've got a quad core poweredge at work which has one core working its knackers off and the other three idling. Such a waste... so I ran a copy of boinc on it as well.
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Cheers,
Andy M
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#295996 - 04/04/2007 21:05
Re: Considering a Mac purchase
[Re: drakino]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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Also, it is heavily discounted for students, so if you have a college friend, they could help save you a bunch of money.
This is true for most of the systems apple sells. If you don't know anyone associated with an educational institution, consider the ADC membership. You'll often get a discount on a high end system that's about equal to the cost, and you'll get all sorts of mailings from them, the most valuable of which being Leopard once it's released.
Matthew
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