#304723 - 04/12/2007 01:46
And another thing, speed sensing cruise control
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pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
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So speed sensing cruise control is designed to reduce rear end collisions, right? But seriously now, if it slows you down as you approach another car, what about getting rear ended by the car behind you?
What happens if you're cruising when some oblivious Sunday driver cuts you off? Does your car slam on the breaks, making you the proverbial brick wall for all those friendly tailgaters? How safe is that?
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#304724 - 04/12/2007 01:58
Re: And another thing, speed sensing cruise control
[Re: FireFox31]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
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You arn't suppose to take a nap any more than you do with the standard cruse control.
I haven't had the opportunity to drive a vehicle so equipped, Yet I'm kind of looking forward the the time when those systems drop down out of the premium market.
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Glenn
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#304725 - 04/12/2007 07:44
Re: And another thing, speed sensing cruise control
[Re: gbeer]
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old hand
Registered: 07/01/2005
Posts: 893
Loc: Sector ZZ9pZa
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The adaptive cruise in the Honda Accord ( ADAS) even uses the power steering to keep you exactly in your lane on the motorway. The Lexus LS can park itself. Also the (prototype) BMW that drove itself around the Topgear test track was pretty interesting. Seems like all the major manufacturers are putting a lot of effort into these autopilot style systems. Its only a matter of time before you set your destination on the satnav and it drives you there. It will make the whole aspect of insuring your car rather interesting! Can you just imagine the lawsuits when this stuff goes wrong...
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#304726 - 04/12/2007 07:50
Re: And another thing, speed sensing cruise control
[Re: FireFox31]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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I think the whole idea is a nightmare. Anything that makes drivers need to think less and de-skills them over the long term is bad news. Most people don't think enough when they are driving as it is.
I'm not even convinced that normal cruise control is a good idea. It would be interesting to know if anyone has ever done some research on the relative level of accidents in places where more cars are automatics with cruise control.
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#304727 - 04/12/2007 11:33
Re: And another thing, speed sensing cruise control
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
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Quote:
I'm not even convinced that normal cruise control is a good idea.
Having driven in England, I can see why you might think that.
Try driving I-10 from Los Angeles to Jacksonville without cruise control and you'll quickly change your mind, especially in west Texas.
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~ John
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#304728 - 04/12/2007 11:48
Re: And another thing, speed sensing cruise control
[Re: JBjorgen]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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I don't deny that cruise control has some advantages. I just suspect that using cruise control tends to cause people to think less about the rest of their driving. It makes people lazy.
The few times I have had a rental car with cruise control I have noticed that I drive worse (don't pay as much attention, make worse judgements of risk) if I use cruise control for a prolonged period.
My experience of US freeways is scary. There seem to be so many single car accidents, where people look like they just drove off the road.
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#304729 - 04/12/2007 13:00
Re: And another thing, speed sensing cruise control
[Re: andy]
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member
Registered: 27/01/2006
Posts: 142
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
I think the whole idea is a nightmare. Anything that makes drivers need to think less and de-skills them over the long term is bad news. Most people don't think enough when they are driving as it is.
I'm not even convinced that normal cruise control is a good idea. It would be interesting to know if anyone has ever done some research on the relative level of accidents in places where more cars are automatics with cruise control.
QFT. Once these become prevalent we'll have people simulataneously shaving, checking e-mail, and reading the newspaper while doing 80 MPH on the NJ Turnpike. Frightening indeed.
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#304730 - 04/12/2007 13:45
Re: And another thing, speed sensing cruise control
[Re: rubennyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
Quote:
I think the whole idea is a nightmare. Anything that makes drivers need to think less and de-skills them over the long term is bad news. Most people don't think enough when they are driving as it is.
I'm not even convinced that normal cruise control is a good idea. It would be interesting to know if anyone has ever done some research on the relative level of accidents in places where more cars are automatics with cruise control.
QFT. Once these become prevalent we'll have people simulataneously shaving, checking e-mail, and reading the newspaper while doing 80 MPH on the NJ Turnpike. Frightening indeed.
It seems like they do that already! Fortunately I commute by subway now, but when I was driving It alarmed me how many men were shaving and how many women were putting on makeup. Then there's the morons reading the newspaper...
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Matt
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#304731 - 05/12/2007 15:57
Re: And another thing, speed sensing cruise control
[Re: JBjorgen]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm not even convinced that normal cruise control is a good idea.
Having driven in England, I can see why you might think that.
Try driving I-10 from Los Angeles to Jacksonville without cruise control and you'll quickly change your mind, especially in west Texas.
I haven't gone all the way to Jacksonville, but I have done I-10 from LA to San Antonio, TX. Last year, for Christmas, in fact, so I drove it back the other way, too. We took my wife's car, since it's far more fuel efficient than my truck, and it has no cruise control. Driving for 8 hours a day, for 3 days in a row, on mostly straight roads, with no cruise control, does, indeed, suck ass.
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#304732 - 05/12/2007 16:08
Re: And another thing, speed sensing cruise control
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I never know what to do with my right foot when I'm using cruise control. I end up holding it in an awkward position that ends up making my leg hurt.
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#304733 - 05/12/2007 16:47
Re: And another thing, speed sensing cruise control
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
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Quote:
I haven't gone all the way to Jacksonville, but I have done I-10 from LA to San Antonio, TX. Last year, for Christmas, in fact, so I drove it back the other way, too. We took my wife's car, since it's far more fuel efficient than my truck, and it has no cruise control. Driving for 8 hours a day, for 3 days in a row, on mostly straight roads, with no cruise control, does, indeed, suck ass.
I actually haven't made it all the way to Jacksonville in a single trip either. We drove from Anaheim to Pensacola several times though, so that's pretty much the whole way. Took us five days, although it can be done pretty easily in four.
There are parts of west Texas where you could doze off for 20 minutes or so and if your alignment is good enough, wake up and be none the worse for it.
At 6'4", unless it's just the perfect vehicle, I start having leg and knee soreness after about eight hours. By twelve hours I can hardly walk. I have the same problem flying economy.
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#304734 - 05/12/2007 23:18
Re: And another thing, speed sensing cruise control
[Re: wfaulk]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
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Quote:
I think the whole idea is a nightmare. Anything that makes drivers need to think less and de-skills them over the long term is bad news. Most people don't think enough when they are driving as it is.
Absolutely. I posted this thread in reaction to the new Volvo V70. It also takes action when you're veering off the road or start drifting lanes. But it doesn't drive for you, it simply warns you to wake the hell up. I'm hoping that will work as a safety net instead of a debilitating replacement for human awareness.
Quote:
I never know what to do with my right foot when I'm using cruise control
On cruise, I hover my right foot 1/4 inch above the brake pedal. That is, unless there's next to nobody around and I feel acutely aware of deer.
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looking forward the the time when those systems drop down out of the premium market
Hyundai now have rain sensing wipers. They'll have this auto-pilot in a few years too.
Quote:
relative level of accidents in places where more cars are automatics with cruise control.
Much to my surprise, manuals have cruise control too; such as my 2000 Volvo V70.
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#304735 - 06/12/2007 05:32
Re: And another thing, speed sensing cruise control
[Re: FireFox31]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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The car enthusiast bulletin boards occasionally have interesting discussions on the Peltzman effect and on Risk Homeostasis. On a related note, have you seen the episode of Top Gear where Jeremy Clarkson takes the new top-end Mercedes full speed into a roundabout to see if it brakes itself properly to avoid the car in front? (It did, but there was much grimacing on Clarkson's face as he kept his foot hovering above the brake pedal "just in case".) Devices which "dumb-ify" drivers are one of my pet peeves. But I have a tiny little car without even cupholders, so there you go. I shall attempt to restrain myself from further ranting on this subject.
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#304736 - 06/12/2007 06:46
Re: And another thing, speed sensing cruise control
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Quote:
I think the whole idea is a nightmare. Anything that makes drivers need to think less and de-skills them over the long term is bad news.
That's pretty much the standard reaction to any new automotive technology.
I remember back in the '60s, someone I knew saying, "No way would I wear one of those seat belts. If I have an accident I want to be thrown clear."
Anti-lock brakes: "If I start to skid, I'll just pump the brake pedal and turn into the direction of the skid."
Air bags: "No way would I have a car with some damn thing that's going to blow up in my face."
Stability control: "I'm not going to have some electronic gizmo controlling MY car!"
I imagine that if we looked back far enough, we'd find the automotive pundits saying things like "What the hell do we need brakes on all four wheels for?", or "Why would anybody make something so complicated with master cylinders and hydraulic lines when these cables operate the brakes just fine."
Did we really need synchronizers on ALL the gears? Talk about "de-skill" in action, nowadays hardly anybody knows how to double-clutch and match the engine revs to engage a non-synchro gear!
I'm old enough to remember the bad old days of automotive technology, and there's no way I'd go back! Nearly all of the improvements that were initially decried as bad ideas are now things we wouldn't want to be without.
tanstaafl.
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#304737 - 06/12/2007 07:54
Re: And another thing, speed sensing cruise control
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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Quote:
Talk about "de-skill" in action, nowadays hardly anybody knows how to double-clutch and match the engine revs to engage a non-synchro gear!
A surprisingly small number of Americans know how to use a clutch at all.
American rental car companies give you your choice of "automatic" or "automatic".
Among those who do understand what the 3rd pedal and stick are used for, a good number do know about rev-matched downshifts (but not double-clutching).
I think ABS, Airbags, DSC, and 4-wheel disk brakes were met with general anticipation, and certainly much less resistance than radar-guided cruise control.
Ahh, here's that link I was looking for about Is car safety replacing common sense? with discussion about BLIS, CWBS, ACC, DWAS, and V2V.
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#304738 - 06/12/2007 08:01
Re: And another thing, speed sensing cruise control
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
Quote:
I think the whole idea is a nightmare. Anything that makes drivers need to think less and de-skills them over the long term is bad news.
That's pretty much the standard reaction to any new automotive technology.
True. However I would argue that your examples are all to do with the mechanics of driving.
Automatics gearboxes, cruise controls, automatic distance controls, automatic braking are different. They are due to the thinking of driving.
Having to think about which gear you should be in keeps you think about what you are doing, encourages you to keep making decisions, as opposed to just sticking it in drive. Automatic distance control is going to give people less practice at judging distances, which is a shame because when the come to need to judge distances in circumstances where the automatic distance control can't help them they are going to find that they aren't as good at it if they had had more on going practice.
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#304739 - 06/12/2007 08:06
Re: And another thing, speed sensing cruise control
[Re: music]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
On a related note, have you seen the episode of Top Gear where Jeremy Clarkson takes the new top-end Mercedes full speed into a roundabout to see if it brakes itself properly to avoid the car in front? (It did, but there was much grimacing on Clarkson's face as he kept his foot hovering above the brake pedal "just in case".)
Wait until you see last weeks episode then. BMW bring along a car with fully automatic controls, you drive it round a track once so it can learn the line and then it can lap the track itself.
The car looks perfectly normal, no add ons in the cabin (no doubt thanks to the electric steering racks the BMWs have now).
So the put Clarkson in it and had the car lap the Top Gear track at full speed.
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#304740 - 06/12/2007 10:45
Re: And another thing, speed sensing cruise control
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
On a related note, have you seen the episode of Top Gear where Jeremy Clarkson takes the new top-end Mercedes full speed into a roundabout to see if it brakes itself properly to avoid the car in front? (It did, but there was much grimacing on Clarkson's face as he kept his foot hovering above the brake pedal "just in case".)
Wait until you see last weeks episode then. BMW bring along a car with fully automatic controls, you drive it round a track once so it can learn the line and then it can lap the track itself.
The car looks perfectly normal, no add ons in the cabin (no doubt thanks to the electric steering racks the BMWs have now).
So the put Clarkson in it and had the car lap the Top Gear track at full speed.
Oh cool.. so that's from a (very) recent episode, then? We just watched that here two nights ago from some online video site (youtube, or a taiwanese one perhaps). Good fun.
The clip we saw cut off just as the lap ended -- any idea what the final time was, and where/if they placed it on to the board ??
Cheers
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#304741 - 06/12/2007 11:10
Re: And another thing, speed sensing cruise control
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
Oh cool.. so that's from a (very) recent episode, then? We just watched that here two nights ago from some online video site (youtube, or a taiwanese one perhaps). Good fun.
The clip we saw cut off just as the lap ended -- any idea what the final time was, and where/if they placed it on to the board ??
Yes it was transmitted on Sunday.
I guess I'm not allowed to post a link to the best source for TG episodes.
Unfortunately the didn't give the time of the automatically driven lap, which presumably means it wasn't as fast as it looked.
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#304742 - 06/12/2007 14:58
Re: And another thing, speed sensing cruise control
[Re: FireFox31]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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Adaptive cruise control is fantastic! When I'm in "no hurry" or "really don't want more points on my license" mode I usually set cruise control, but in the UK few people use it. Therefore the speed of other cars tends to drift slightly, and you find yourself adjusting all the time. Adaptive control completely solves this problem.
I don't see any problem with being rear ended - the control is doing exactly what I would have to do manually. It is very smooth.
Rob
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#304743 - 06/12/2007 15:09
Re: And another thing, speed sensing cruise control
[Re: rob]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
but in the UK few people use it
I think it is more a case that few people have it. I only know one member of my extended family who even has an automatic (and they don't have cruise control).
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#304744 - 06/12/2007 15:25
Re: And another thing, speed sensing cruise control
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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As was pointed out, cruise control is not limited to automatics.
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#304745 - 06/12/2007 16:04
Re: And another thing, speed sensing cruise control
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
I never know what to do with my right foot when I'm using cruise control. I end up holding it in an awkward position that ends up making my leg hurt.
I put it in different positions, none of which are generally too far from the brake pedal. However -- the point is that I can move it, so I can shift around, and remain more comfortable for longer periods of time. Like JBJorgen(?), I'm 6'4". My wife's car is a Toyota Echo, which isn't exactly built for folks my height. Not having the cruise control makes it more difficult to move around when my ass hurts. I've taken to using my left foot periodically, just so I can move my right leg around a bit.
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#304746 - 06/12/2007 18:07
Re: And another thing, speed sensing cruise control
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
As was pointed out, cruise control is not limited to automatics.
I am aware of that, but in the UK you would be very hard pressed to find more than a handful of manual cars that have it. It isn't exactly suited to being stuck in one gear on the typical low torque 4 cylinder engines that most cars in the UK have.
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#304747 - 06/12/2007 19:01
Re: And another thing, speed sensing cruise control
[Re: andy]
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old hand
Registered: 07/01/2005
Posts: 893
Loc: Sector ZZ9pZa
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I actually fitted Cruise to my Skoda just for fun. It was a relatively easy install (scary bits removing steering wheel and airbag done by a friend of mine) but after all that effort, I basically never used it. Found it useful just a couple of times a year.
Works really well in my diesel though, bags of torque for it. Really did feel like a little train.
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#304748 - 06/12/2007 19:57
Re: And another thing, speed sensing cruise control
[Re: sein]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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Quote:
I actually fitted Cruise to my Skoda just for fun. It was a relatively easy install (scary bits removing steering wheel and airbag done by a friend of mine) but after all that effort, I basically never used it.
Was it an aftermarket one? Or did you just get raid the Skoda parts bin?
My Dads Vauxhall Vectra is a manual with cruise, although it too is a diesel. I stress tested it on a hill and found that if the going does get too tough, it just drops out of cruise and effectively stalls!
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#304749 - 06/12/2007 20:32
Re: And another thing, speed sensing cruise control
[Re: andym]
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old hand
Registered: 07/01/2005
Posts: 893
Loc: Sector ZZ9pZa
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Its all original parts. Needed a stalk (same as VW, Seat, Audi), loom and connector (about 50 quid in parts iirc). When its all assembled, cruise had to be enabled in the ECU with a laptop and a VAG-COM cable connected to the OBD II port... took under 2 hours to get it all working.
That Vauxhall cruise sounds terrible! Did they not test that? Damn. I don't think my cruise can be enabled under 1300rpm-ish so there is virtually no chance of stalling.
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#304750 - 06/12/2007 20:57
Re: And another thing, speed sensing cruise control
[Re: sein]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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There is a lower rev limit before it can be engaged. However I doesn't stop you from engaging at 30MPH in 4th right before a really steep hill.
Did you do the reprogramming on the ECU?
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#304751 - 06/12/2007 21:06
Re: And another thing, speed sensing cruise control
[Re: andym]
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old hand
Registered: 16/02/2002
Posts: 867
Loc: Oxford, UK
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Quote:
My Dads Vauxhall Vectra is a manual with cruise, although it too is a diesel. I stress tested it on a hill and found that if the going does get too tough, it just drops out of cruise and effectively stalls!
I have the same car and like your dad's, some hills are too much for the CC and it disengages. I actually prefer that the CC doesn't allow itself the equivalent of full accelerator pedal input - I want to be the one who makes that decision. I don't recall it ever disengaging on motorways at normal speeds which is where I use it most. On local journeys in 30mph limits I keep it in 4th with CC on and sometimes 'assist' it with my right foot, if I didn't the speed would drop below the 20mph threshold where CC disengages.
As far as the car stalling goes, you'd have had to have fallen asleep at the wheel for that to actually happen! 
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#304752 - 07/12/2007 13:35
Re: And another thing, speed sensing cruise control
[Re: andym]
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old hand
Registered: 07/01/2005
Posts: 893
Loc: Sector ZZ9pZa
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Quote:
Did you do the reprogramming on the ECU?
My friend did it - he had done it before and had the odd-sized tool needed to get the steering wheel bolt off and also VAG-COM cable and software. But it looked pretty straightforward. Just checked and cleared the fault logs, enabled and applied the cruise option and checked the logs again. It took him about 2 minutes on the laptop.
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