I purchased some X10 home automation components several years ago, mostly to solve some problems I had in my old apartment related to inconvenient access to light switches. I found the quality of the X10 components to be lacking, and I had some occasions where the switches would turn on themselves due to electrical noise or something. In other words, the stuff more or less worked, but didn't impress me enough to justify a large investment.

Anyway, I recently bought a house, and am thinking about home automation again. Apparently a company called Insteon makes components that are much higher quality than the X10 stuff (hence more expensive) but have the benefit of being able to interoperate somewhat with X10 components, which sounds great.

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone has experience with the Insteon product line and can provide some opinions/advice. I have my eye on this starter kit just to try things out and solve a couple of lighting problems in my new home.

Or, if anyone has any other recommendations of similar products, I'd be interested in hearing about those as well.

I'm currently using 4 insteon icon switches (low-end quality, seem discontinued), a keypad, a PLC and a few icon appliance modules. Currently, the system is rock solid, but I had a few issues with the PLC. A firmware update solved the problem.

From what I understand, the system work best if you have a minimum number of items. At 5-6, I have no issue, but at a friend's house, he only got 2 and sometimes switches don't turn on. Both of us don't have RF-repeaters.

I had to return a defective item and it was assle-free. I paid return shipping, but got the replacement in no time, no question asked. Customer support was really good.

The PLC is OK, but the software isn't great. I currently use a few third party software and it's better. I will probably buy a PLM as it'll be easier to interface with a microcontroller.

Once you start with a product line, you're kind of locked with them. Insteon seems the cheapest way to go. You'll probably read comments that build quality is an issue, but at 45$ a switch, you can buy a few spares for the price of a single UPB switch.

It depends on how much work and money you're willing to invest into this.

If you want something which is reliable and will work well then you're going to have to go for one of the high end dedicated bus systems like Clipsal C-Bus or Lutron. They're unfortunately expensive.

I have 2 RF jumpers, 8 switches, one keypad switch, 2 plug in modules, one low voltage controller, and a usb interface. Its addictive. My insteon project started simply to fix a couple odd light switch placements. Then I figured I could simple wire the garage door to trigger the lights to come on. then consolidate all the outside lights and applied timers. Lastly I wired (3) blind motors to a plug in module and wall switch. It automatically puts the blinds down at night in the winter and in the afternoon in the summer. Im sure it will pay for it self in 50 years (or less if oil keeps going like it has)...Overall I am very happy with the insteon products except for the high price. Sometimes you can catch it 20% off.

Thanks for all the info, guys.

As I was piecing together a list of modules to buy, it occurred to me that the dimmer switches probably won't work well with compact fluorescent bulbs. I am trying to use as many CFLs as possible in my house to save energy, and a quick read of the SmartHome forums suggests dimmable CFLs are hard to find, expensive, and don't actually work all that well. Looks like I'll have to use incandescents on any lights I want to dim.

That automatic blind idea sounds great. What blind motors did you use?

If you already have a (non-automated) dimmer you could test with, GE makes dimmable ones that should be easily available and are only about twice the cost of non-dimmable ones.

The problem with the dimmable lamps I've seen is that you can't use a normal dimmer switch - to dim them you need to fit a normal switch and flick it on an off a number of times to dim it to the required level.

According to GE's product page, it's "Dimmable on standard incandescent dimmer".

I'm used to paying about $2-3 per CFL, so $14 is a little more than double for the dimmable model.

Another source if you can't find dimmable bulbs locally (I can't) is http://1000bulbs.com

My new home will already be outfitted with CFLs in every fixture that is supplied without a dimmer - this means everything except the master bedroom and dining room. I'll replace those bulbs myself and hope to have the home using more energy efficient luminaries in every single socket. Even planning LED for under cabinet lighting in the kitchen.

No plans for automation yet though. I think I'll wait it out until I see some reports in here later in the year.

Yup. The ones I was looking at here recently ($19 at a specialty lighting shop) were dimmable on ordinary incandescent dimmers. But I opted instead for the 8-pack of non-dimmable lamps from Costco for $12.

Cheers

That's more or less what a modern dimmer switch does -- it switches on/off rapidly, though the intent is to chop off the peaks of the AC waveforms each cycle, rather than a full on/off sort of thing.

Really old dimmers (from the 60s) were resistive based, and would likely not work. And are a bit of a fire hazard anyway, so one really should have scrapped them decades ago.

Cheers

Don't you wish you could just burn all the bullshit on the internet as fuel? We'd have an endless supply of energy.

Mark, do you know of any place local to Toronto one might find dimmable CFLs? Hopefully for less than $19.

Not for sure. But my local Canadian Tire store (a largish one) has some of them (an off-brand, price was closer to $14, I think). And I suspect many lighting-only shops would have them.

EDIT: Oh, and a Home Despot guy suggested to me that even Loblaws has had them in from time to time. The cheaper ones are rumoured to be "buzzy", but I have no experience with them. "Phillips" and "GE" are the "respected" makers, FWIW (or not).

cheers

Most dimmable CFLs (incandescent replacement type) are step dimmable. So using a standard dimmer as you turn up and down, the lamp goes from 20% 60% 100% brightness for example. They also tend to also have the feature where you can flick the switch to dim to the next stepped level.

Smooth dimming CFL replacement lamps are pretty new. Megaman do a range called 'Dimmerable'. These are very smooth dimming from 0% to 100%. Their life is rated at 10,000 hours (instead of the standard Megaman lamps life of 15k hrs). Definitely recommend them though, they are available in normal CFL shape, GLS style, 11w GU10's, R63, R80, PAR38's and more.

No real idea whether they are available in North America / Canada, sorry. Link: Megaman Global.

Btw, I'm surprised at the cost of the US dimmable lamps you quote here. They are basically the same price here in the UK (about £7 ish), I guess I just expect everything to be cheaper in the US.

Yes - you need 'relay' non-dimmer insteon switches for CFL. Most of my kitchen lighting is. There are no relay keypad switches.

I used these drapes motors: http://www.smarthome.com/3142.html
they are meant for vertical blinds, but I took them apart and modified them very slightly to work with my closed cell horizontal blinds. The control is a little crude. They change from open->closed or back each time the power is cycled off->on.

If the power is killed halfway, then they will continue in the same direction the next time power is applied until they get to the predetermined fully open or closed stops. My wife understands that if she closes them, she cant let it run all the way closed or the next time the timer goes off it would be opposite of what we want.

Again, these are occasionally available for 20% off otherwise I dont think I would have paid $99 each.

The New York Times did an interview with a scientist from Sylvania / Siemens that's all about CFLs and related light technologies. Interesting reading. He feels that the "dimmable" issue is still unsolved and that they're still not quite there for the color spectrum of CFLs.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/26/business/26interview.html

That article reads like it was written 5 to 10 years ago, with few exceptions.

No mention of reflector technologies to help direct more light to where you want/need it, that dimmable CFLs and non compact fluorescents are available. That anyone serious about colour reproduction and light quality has already been using fluorescents for years (high CRI models that mimic daylight, like Tri-Phosphor tubes).

I think we're starting to see rapid adoption of CFL. Home Depot and other big-box stores are carrying greater variety and quantity every day. Compare this to how long it took them to start carrying T-8 linear bulbs and/or how slow adoption in commercial applications has been (yes, retrofitting hundreds of fixtures for high-efficiency electronic ballasts isn't cheap).

There was also no mention of new recycling technologies to reclaim the mercury from discarded CFLs. This is very important until such a time as a non-mercury product becomes viable. I hate "fluff" reporting.

High CRI isn't always what people want indoors. I love the look of real sunlight coming in through my windows, but when I've used the so-called daylight bulbs (CFL or otherwise) I haven't liked the results. It always makes me feel like I'm in a fish tank or something. My eyes can tell that it resembles daylight (more to the blue end of the spectrum, I guess) but the softer look of traditional indoor lighting just seems to feel better for normal use.

In my garage I do use the daylight lights and I don't mind as much in there. But in the kitchen, living room, etc. I think I'll stay with the color spectrum my brain is used to for indoor lighting.

Since this has become a CFL conversation...has anyone else had problems with Phillips CFL? I had 2 of the 4 recessed light style bulbs die after 3 months (the incandescent would last years). Also the coil style cheap off brand (bright effects) CFL bulbs seems to come up to full brightness about 100 times faster than the Phillips of like style. I wouldn't buy the philips bulbs, but they seem to have the most styles available.

They don't seem to enjoy totally enclosed fixtures. I have several incandescent ceiling fixtures around here that are not CFL-friendly, in that the CFLs just buzz and go out after overheating in them.

Cheers

I just finished replacing the two ceiling lamps in my office here with CFL-friendly fixtures and 3x13W (each) CFLs.

As an experiment, I purchased a box of 8 Phillips CFLs, and 8 "Luminus" (no-name) CFLs from Costco.

Both of these brands were slow to come up to full brightness.

So I returned the more-expensive Phillips ones for a refund.

Update:

I started looking into how much I'd have to spend on this project, and I seem to have hit a snag. All of the Insteon modules I've seen require a neutral wire at the switch boxes, and none of the switches I've looked at have a neutral wire available. In some cases there's a nearby outlet that I could pull neutral from, but that probably means ripping my wall apart (no conduit or anything to help me out.)

Anyone have a ballpark estimate of what an electrician might charge to pull neutral wires to my switch boxes? Would they also have to tear the wall up, or is there some trick to it that I'm not aware of?

You may have a "terminology" problem here.

The white wire, which you *do* have in all of your outlet boxes, *is* the neutral wire. This is the wide spade lug on a Canada/USA power cord plug.

And the black wire is the hot wire. This is the narrower spade lug on a Canada/USA plug.

What may be missing in a home older than about 40 years or so, is a bare, uninsulated copper wire, known as the earth ground wire. This is the third (offset middle) prong on a Canada/USA plug.

EDIT: oh wait, you did say switch boxes.. hang on for my next posting.

-ml

Okay, that's pretty normal for a Canada/USA light switch box. You'll have black/white, both of which are HOT when the switch is "on", and maybe a bare copper wire for earth ground.

Perhaps the Insteon modules are happy with the bare copper? It'll work, but is it safe? Gotta read the Insteon docs to know for sure.

As for running new cable to a switch box.. it depends upon where the outlet (controlled by the switch) is located, and on whether or not there's an unfinished floor above (attic), or ceiling below (basement). If not, then there'll be some (minimal) drywall patching needed after the upgrade.

Cheers

Okay, you're screwed -- it definitely wants a real NEUTRAL, so back to the electrician hunt..

Man.. talk about a fatal design flaw there.. very few switch boxes will ever have a neutral wire present (here in Canada/USA, anyway). This makes Insteon switches kinda useless for refit use.

Cheers

I'm a bit surprised that this would be a requirement. They sell a ton of these switches, and I can't imagine that everyone has that problem. Is that third wire a necessity?

Yeah, the SmartHome site makes it pretty clear that you need a neutral wire. Though, as I was trying to find that link, I stumbled across these "beta" devices:

http://www.smarthome.com/2474s.html
http://www.smarthome.com/2474d.html

I guess these were designed in response to users like me who would have to go through significant hassle to get neutrals to my switch boxes. Maybe I'll try those out. More expensive per switch, and two devices to mess with instead of one, but it sure beats having to rip out and re-patch drywall.

Unfortunately, they don't have a 2-wire version of the KeypadLinc dimmer which is one that I really wanted. If I want that one, I guess I'll have to bring in an electrician to do at least one of the switch boxes.

It depends on how the circuit is wired. In my house (circa 1978, USA) the switch is in the middle of the circuit and the lights are at the end. So the neutral (white) is connected via wire-nut inside the switch box. Like this .

However, if there is no neutral in the switch box it is probably wired with the switch at the end of the circuit. Like this .

Connecting the Insteon devices to the bare (ground) wire would work because the neutral and ground are connected (bonded) together inside your breaker box. It might not work on a circuit using a GFCI breaker, which trip at under 10 mA (I'm not sure how much current the Insteon devices require to operate). It would be reasonably safe, as a minimal amount of current through the ground wire would not cause a significant rise in ground potential anywhere in the circuit. The only problem occurs if the ground wire is severed and the lamp and switch housings become electrically charged. It definitely would not be up to code.

-Jeff
(EE, but not an electrician)

Well, if one is willing to also rewire the device box (aka. "outlet"), then they can do just about anything.

Pity their regular fancy dimmers still need all three wires, though.

I'm guessing an electrician will price it at about $250/dimmer, parts/paint not included.

Cheers

Wow, it's sometimes good to live in a small town after all! I had the basement of my last house rewired after I partitioned it for $200, total!