Link.

Better link in the Telegraph UK.

ROF <20> L

(And "Thanks Gary")

I only played D&D for a short while when I was very young (maybe 1st and/or 2nd grade), but I've certainly enjoyed role playing games (Final Fantasy IV is my favorite game of all time), so thanks, Gary!

From Woot!:

Most of those are hilarious, but can someone explain the Lorraine Williams, Marilyn Monroe, and Marlon Wayans references?

Marlon Wayans was in that awful D&D movie.

Lorraine Williams was effectively the person who gained a controlling interest in TSR, the company that published D&D that Gygax cofounded, and forced Gygax out.

Marilyn Monroe: dunno, beyond the obvious that people would prefer to play D&D with Gygax on a Friday night than go out on a date with Marilyn.

Ah, thanks!

Wow. I played an awful lot of D&D back in junior high. I distinctly remember all the "going to hell" issues raised by the religious fundamentalist types, including our lovely (Dallas, Texas) school administration. We managed to do an excellent job of ignoring them, and I'm reasonably confident none of us went on to be Satan worshipers.

Wow. I remember in 1988 having a group (can't remember the name) that met AT our school after classes with the blessing of the school. Maybe my time was too late for the hysteria to take effect. Or maybe they didn't mind AD&D that much!

What, nobody there voted for Dubya? Twice?

How many have stories to tell of serious internal family strife arising because of this sort of thing? I had a fundie stepmother who capped it all off by "disappearing" my books and a friend's figurines I was painting for him, then denying she'd done it.

I guess she never learned that stealing is bad...

Therein lies the irony.

I got my start in '87, at a junior high school where the D&D club was GM'd by the french teacher. I spent the majority of the first campaign as a stone statue, after attempting to steal a pretty feather for my hat -- from a cockatrice. Oops.

Nice tribute by xkcd today.

Our GM was the "creative thinking and learning" teacher. We played in the school library, but I understand that she spent a non-trivial amount of time running interference on our behalf. I distinctly remember a shot that the yearbook photographer was setting up with a table with all the books on it. We decided to keep the DM Guide under the stack, since it had the big ugly demon on the cover...

It amazes me that Americans have such a problem with this very innocent stuff yet recognize the Scientology and Mormon religions...

I think the last time I played D&D was in grade 5 or 6 (it could have been 7 though). I liked it as did a number of friends, but other pursuits just ended up taking up the free time. I still have the original D&D manuals and dice, but never did get any AD&D materials myself.

It was a far bigger influence on popular culture than a lot of people would ever give it credit for.

Hail Satan!

Well, current Mormonism is kind of like Christianity++. There are, no doubt, some rather odd parts to it, but on the whole it boils down to "God didn't stop talking to us," and "the Book of Mormon isn't a replacement for the Bible -- it's just another historical document of Christ's witness in another land." Or something like that.

Scientology, on the other hand...

A woman started evangelising near me in town the other day. I was just reading a book whilst waiting for Mrs lbt.

I asked her to stop as I wanted to read quietly. Of course that started the chit-chat
Anyhow, when she asked my name so she could pray for me I asked for hers so I could sacrifice a chicken in her name on a flaming altar.

She went away soon after... no hard feelings though

Oh! It has to be flaming?
Dang- and I've been doing it wrong all these years!

I have several Mormon friends. My biggest problem with it is that, effectively, you buy your way into heaven. You can't get into heaven unless you have your secret name, you can't get your secret name unless you receive some particular sacrament, you can't get that sacrament unless you're a good Mormon, and you can't be a good Mormon unless you tithe. (And tithe actually means a full 10% to them.)

There are other problems, too, like baptising non-Christians in absentia and post mortem, even after having been asked to stop. That's just rude.

Random wackiness, like secret underwear, I couldn't care less about. It's mostly the strongarming people into paying money that's my issue with it. And that's my same issue with Scientology. Admittedly, Scientology is a thousand times worse about it, but it's the same scam, ultimately.

I've heard people get annoyed about this before -- though mainly non-Mormon Christians rather than non-Christians -- and I couldn't see why. Either these baptisms are valid or they aren't. If they're valid, presumably it's important and beneficial that they're done; if they aren't, presumably it makes no difference whether they're done or not. So why is there a problem?

Peter

The particular instance I remember was them baptising Jews killed in the Holocaust.

From my entirely vague understanding of what Judaism might have to say about this, there's no religious problem, per se. If you want to baptise me in absentia, go knock yourself out. Just don't expect it to mean a damn thing to me or my family.

On the other hand, the act is still deeply offensive. These people died because of their religion and you've got the nerve to try to retroactively change their religion? When you're stomping like a bull in a china shop through somebody else's sacred history, the results can never be good. You might as well try to retroactively convert past Popes. I'm sure Catholics might take some exception with that.

This is interesting reading as I am a Mormon... I couldn't comment on everything such as the proxy baptisms for Jews killed in the Holocaust, as I don't know. My mom is a professional genealogist so I could probably find out from her. I know there are a lot of rules as to which deceased individuals can have the baptisms performed that an unfortunate number of members don't heed.

For me the religion does make sense, but I was brought up in it. I can definitely see how things would look to others though, especially with the fanatical members of the religion (every religion has them). I generally do try not to comment online about it as I don't want to start debating the points of the religion, but not all of us are crazy fanatics.

OT: Did ya see that Mythbusters?

With you so far...

...no, lost you, sorry. Surely it would be more offensive if they deliberately excluded Jewish people from an act which they believe they're doing for the baptisee's benefit?

Why? Again, if these Catholics believe that the Mormon baptism is metaphysically meaningful, then they must believe it's beneficial. If they don't believe it's metaphysically meaningful, isn't it just empty words, a stage-play signifying nothing?

Caring whether or not adherents of your religion, are posthumously claimed by another religion, surely only makes sense if you believe that the Mormon god, the Catholic god, and the Jewish god all exist as separate, competing entities, and that it's important whose team you're on. Perhaps some people do indeed believe that, but it's hardly mainstream in any major Western religious tradition.

Peter

I would have to agree with DWallach on this. It would be deeply offensive in that it is disrespectful and patronizing. Like "those poor little ignorant jews need our Mormon help" offensive.

Being a former mormon myself, I can say that they believe that they are the only ones with the full "Truth and Authority" from god. And also that it cannot be shared with other churches/religions except to the extent that they convert to mormonism. Just a bit assuming, if you ask me - and that is the part that I would find offensive.

There is not much that can be done about it - and they have the right to do what they want in their temples with the name of any one of us or our ancestors. Whether or not it is appropriate is another matter.

I wonder how some mormons would feel if another church had sacred rights that "undid" any ordinance that the mormons did in their temples. Kind of an interesting exercise to see the response, if any. I'm sure that some mormons would be deeply offended to hear that someone was "undoing" their parents celestial marriage in some other secret religious building.