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#310930 - 04/06/2008 13:06 Two issues
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
I'd really appreciate help on two things:

1) I have a person asking me for assistance with their Wordpress website. It appears that it's not displaying properly for one or more of the people in her group (a youth baseball league in my hometown). Here's the explanation from the non-techie user: "Thanks. I still have trouble accessing that site in MS Explorer. Everything comes up but the pennants, then it kicks me out. Doesn't happen everytime, but most times including tonight. My internet doesn't have this problem on any other site, might ask our programmer and see what he says."

Could some people test out this site in IE for me? Thanks.

2) I've been having bad luck with a machine I built for my mother-in-law (uh-oh!). For some reason it is constantly bluescreening and restarting, or just plain restarting instantly. At first I suspected bad Vista drivers, but XP is doing the same thing. I've run memtest with no errors found. What else could cause this? It's a Shuttle system with a 8600GT and a Core Duo E4500 CPU. Any ideas?
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Matt

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#310932 - 04/06/2008 13:16 Re: Two issues [Re: Dignan]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
  1. Works for me under IE6.
  2. Power supply issue, maybe?
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Bitt Faulk

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#310933 - 04/06/2008 13:36 Re: Two issues [Re: wfaulk]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Power supply issue, maybe?

Try booting/running from a LiveCD, and see if the problem persists. If so, then bad RAM or PSU. If not, then perhaps bad HD.

Cheers

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#310934 - 04/06/2008 13:40 Re: Two issues [Re: Dignan]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
1. Works fine for me in Firefox 2, IE 7, IE 5, Safari, Opera. Need more details from the user that's having problems. When he says "KICKS ME OUT" we need more precise information on exactly what that means: Error messages if any, what happens to the browser (does it exit, does it go to a different page, does the OS crash, what).

2. For how LONG did you run memtest? I've had situations where bad RAM was the cause of many bluescreens, but didn't get any memtest errors if I only let it loop once. Only on like the 5th-10th loops did it actually show a memory error.

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Tony Fabris

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#310935 - 04/06/2008 13:41 Re: Two issues [Re: mlord]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
I'll try the live CD. Good idea. It's weird, because when I wiped Vista off, I installed XP and ran it for a couple hours while installing apps and updates, then all of a sudden it started freaking out like this. It seemed to come after applying SP3. Could there be a software cause? Or perhaps a heat issue?
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Matt

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#310936 - 04/06/2008 13:43 Re: Two issues [Re: Dignan]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
Yes, it could be a problem with RAM or PSU that only comes up after the system gets good and warm.
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Tony Fabris

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#310937 - 04/06/2008 13:45 Re: Two issues [Re: tfabris]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
Oh, and for (1.), we need to know that the user is sure he doesn't have troubles with other web sites. Maybe the user only ever uses his computer to answer email and to look at his kid's little league web site. Perhaps he's got a more serious problem with his browser or his PC, and he gets troubles on every web site, but is blaming yours because it's the only one he ever looks at.
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Tony Fabris

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#310939 - 04/06/2008 14:13 Re: Two issues [Re: tfabris]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
Originally Posted By: tfabris
For how LONG did you run memtest?


Run Prime95 with large data sets to get everything nice and warm before you run memtest.
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-- roger

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#310945 - 04/06/2008 16:43 Re: Two issues [Re: Roger]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
Well, this is strange. I'm on my mother in law's computer now, and I've at least found something that can replicate the symptoms every single time. When I booted I noticed that AVG was claiming an error, and it looked like the update service had experienced a problem. I tried running the update and the computer crashed. No bluescreen, just an instant reboot. For troubleshooting purposes, when the computer came back up, I tried that again and the exact same thing happened.

However, I don't think the problem is AVG's fault. That isn't the only thing that has caused the problem, just the only one I've found so far that's repeatable. For example, when I started writing this post I went to check the event viewer, but once I clicked on "manage," the computer rebooted. I was eventually able to get in, and there were zero errors or even warnings in the event viewer. Nothing out of the ordinary.

I'm not sure what AVG is doing when its update service is running, but it must be something the computer doesn't like.

*edit*
Well great. After I posted I tried updating again and it worked fine. I don't have a clue what's going on here...


Edited by Dignan (04/06/2008 16:45)
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Matt

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#310946 - 04/06/2008 17:23 Re: Two issues [Re: Roger]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: Roger
Originally Posted By: tfabris
For how LONG did you run memtest?


Run Prime95 with large data sets to get everything nice and warm before you run memtest.

I'm trying to run Prime95, but it keeps dumping the second it starts. It gives me an error (that is really long and for some stupid reason I can't copy/paste from the program), but one line says "Hardware failure detected, consult stress.txt file" which is basically just a readme file with no information on this system.
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Matt

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#310951 - 04/06/2008 18:45 Re: Two issues [Re: Dignan]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
You mean the second the application opens or the second it actually starts processing?
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Bitt Faulk

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#310952 - 04/06/2008 18:48 Re: Two issues [Re: wfaulk]
JBjorgen
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
Could be a heat issue? Check all the fans...

After that, I'd find a friend or something with compatible processor and memory and swap one at a time and see if it makes a difference.
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~ John

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#310953 - 04/06/2008 19:08 Re: Two issues [Re: JBjorgen]
AndrewT
old hand

Registered: 16/02/2002
Posts: 867
Loc: Oxford, UK
If the PC has two or more DIMMs fitted then try running with just one etc.

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#310955 - 04/06/2008 19:39 Re: Two issues [Re: Dignan]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Hm, actually, the idea was to warm up the RAM to see if it was a heat-related issue affecting the RAM. Prime95 detects the problem without heating up the RAM. Memtest86 runs fine also without heating up the RAM.

To me, that's pointing to not-the-RAM.

I'm almost inclined to say it's the CPU.
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Bitt Faulk

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#310956 - 04/06/2008 21:02 Re: Two issues [Re: wfaulk]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: wfaulk
You mean the second the application opens or the second it actually starts processing?

Well, Prime95 appears to start testing when you launch it, and it seems to be stopping about .01 seconds in. I'm not sure if its detecting the problem I'm having, but it's detecting something obvious to it. I wish it would tell ME what that is.

If it were the CPU, what kind of problem? Defective? Maybe I put too much paste on? I installed a program called Speedfan that gave me some temps in the system, and it seemed to indicate that the CPU was idling at around 50C. That seems pretty high, even for a Shuttle, isn't it? I tried stressing it with whatever I had (since Prime95 wasn't doing it) and I didn't notice much change in temperature. And the computer seems to restart after little things are done, like clicking a link, or choosing something from a context menu. Weird little stuff. Anything, really.

It's also delightfully random. Sometimes the computer is running for 30 minutes before a sudden restart. Then, as it did about 15 minutes ago, it'll restart in an endless loop. I had it restart 6 times in a row, each time at either the Windows logo or at the first sign of the desktop.

Argh.

Oh, and I tried replacing the video card. The computer stayed up for about 45 minutes - just long enough for me to get my hopes up - and then crashed just like before. I think this tiny computer has developed a malicious personality...
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Matt

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#310965 - 05/06/2008 09:58 Re: Two issues [Re: Dignan]
Shonky
pooh-bah

Registered: 12/01/2002
Posts: 2009
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
Remove and replace any plug in cards, RAM etc where the connection could be corroded.

Press down firmly on any socketed chips (will usually make a creaking noise). Things like the BIOS chip. Most machines these days are largely devoid of anything socketed though (including the BIOS).

Remove as much hardware as possible to boot a bare minimum. Even as far as the HD and boot from a live CD as suggested.
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Christian
#40104192 120Gb (no longer in my E36 M3, won't fit the E46 M3)

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#310976 - 05/06/2008 13:32 Re: Two issues [Re: AndrewT]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: AndrewT
If the PC has two or more DIMMs fitted then try running with just one etc.

I second this suggestion wholeheartedly.
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Tony Fabris

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#310989 - 05/06/2008 15:55 Re: Two issues [Re: tfabris]
Boelle
addict

Registered: 22/11/2007
Posts: 475
Loc: Denmark, Odense
i also wote for trying to boot on a bare minimum setup, then install xp but don't do any update and then stress the damn thing...

most random failures are due to bad ram or add on cards, that at least is what i have experienced
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the "monkey" who learned to check a harddrive

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#311112 - 08/06/2008 18:13 Re: Two issues [Re: Boelle]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
Thanks guys. Well, first step: with one DIMM filled (and memtest run for 3 passes with no errors), the problem persisted. I'm probably going over there today and I'll try some of the more extreme tests you guys mention.
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Matt

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#311132 - 09/06/2008 07:41 Re: Two issues [Re: Dignan]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
Originally Posted By: Dignan
Well, first step: with one DIMM filled (and memtest run for 3 passes with no errors), the problem persisted.


Try with the other DIMM? Try it in a different slot (if possible)? Try the DIMMs in another PC?

Realise that life's too short and simply buy another PC?
_________________________
-- roger

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#311138 - 09/06/2008 13:41 Re: Two issues [Re: Roger]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: Roger
Try with the other DIMM?


Agreed. That's how I found the problem in one of my Corsair memory modules. Also agreed about trying the other slot. Kill two birds with one stone and try the other DIMM in the other slot. If you still get a failure then we can all agree you've ruled out RAM.

Sorry to keep harping on the RAM despite Memtest telling us you're fine, but everything you're describing matches my experience with an intermittently bad RAM stick.
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Tony Fabris

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#311147 - 09/06/2008 15:30 Re: Two issues [Re: Dignan]
pca
old hand

Registered: 20/07/1999
Posts: 1102
Loc: UK
It would be worth trying removing the processor and carefully blowing out any dust in the LGA775 socket (I assume that's what it is if it's a corer2 duo). I made up a new games box a while ago based on the shuttle SX38P2 unit, with a core2 duo E8400 processor in it, and had remarkably similar symptoms. It would run happily for some time, then just die on me. Other times, it would just reboot over and over. All this was during windows Xp installation and was very frustrating.

Having reseated everything several times, I ended up swapping almost every component from my CAD box into the shuttle, and vice versa. Everything ran perfectly on BOTH systems! I installed windows, then swapped the parts back. It STILL ran perfectly.

Before I put the new processor into the shuttle for the last time, I checked under the microscope and found a couple of fine hairs in the socket, which I removed with tweezers. I'm assuming that this may well have been the problem all along. Possibly one or more of the spring pins in the socket had been making intermittant contact, and the last-but-one processor swap finally dislodged it. I don't know for sure, but the thing has been rock-solidly stable since, even overclocked from 3 to 3.6GHz.

It's also easily the fastest computer I've ever owned. Probably as fast as all my other computers put together wink

So check your CPU.

pca

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Experience is what you get just after it would have helped...

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#311171 - 09/06/2008 17:13 Re: Two issues [Re: pca]
tman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
Just don't smush the contacts in the socket. They're pretty fragile and aren't rated for very many insert/removal operations.

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#311174 - 09/06/2008 17:20 Re: Two issues [Re: tman]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
Update: I did take it apart to get to the CPU yesterday. I'm hoping this was all a heat issue. I put WAY too much thermal paste on the die when I put the machine together, so I scraped a bunch off and put the thing back together. I'd run some program called Speedfan before and after the procedure, and the temps went from 50C to about 34C. Afterwards I wasn't able to get the machine to crash, but that's this computer's MO. It waits until I'm gone and then five days later my wife tells me her mom's computer crashed on her ten times in one night. I'll post again in a week if it's stable.

Is 50C enough to cause this level of problems? I know it's high, but it doesn't seem catastrophically high.
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Matt

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#311176 - 09/06/2008 17:23 Re: Two issues [Re: Dignan]
tman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
Dear god. How much thermal goop did you have in there? It is only supposed to be a very thin layer to even out any imperfections in the heatsink and CPU top.

50C is fine for a processor. They're usually rated to 85C or so.

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#311179 - 09/06/2008 17:58 Re: Two issues [Re: tman]
Phoenix42
veteran

Registered: 21/03/2002
Posts: 1424
Loc: MA but Irish born
73.3°C in this case.

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#311180 - 09/06/2008 17:59 Re: Two issues [Re: tman]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: tman
Dear god. How much thermal goop did you have in there? It is only supposed to be a very thin layer to even out any imperfections in the heatsink and CPU top.


Yeah, too much and it spills over from the heat sink contact pad to the traces on the "chip" (actually a small circuit board these days) and shorts things out.

Cheers

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