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#321690 - 24/04/2009 11:25 Re: Thompsom firmware ? [Re: JBjorgen]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5794
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Nope. I bought this router retail.
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#321692 - 24/04/2009 11:43 Re: Thompsom firmware ? [Re: andy]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5794
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
I've managed to find a recent firmware on some dodgy looking site. Still can't find the upgrade tool though (the router didn't come with a CD and the CD image I downloaded from somewhere didn't appear to have an upgrade tool anyway).

Given how dodgy the site looked I'm not entirely sure I want to install it anyway frown
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#321693 - 24/04/2009 12:21 Re: Thompsom firmware ? [Re: andy]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5794
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
I've managed to work out how to get it to turn off NAT. Part way through the setup routine there is a cryptic question, which when you chose one of the other options it allows you to set no-NAT and DHCP.

However that still leaves me with a very limited web interface. It can't even do things like reserve IP addresses for given MAC addresses.

I found the firmware upgrade tool in the end, but my effort to use it have failed so far. I figured out early on that it probably needs a static IP setup on the network interface before you start, but it appears to forget what my username/password is half way through. No matter how many times I enter the correct password (or the serial number just in case) it tells me they are incorrect.

I'm beginning to wish I had stuck with my perfectly good Netgear router and just got a new access point instead frown

Rant over, back to trying to work out why the upgrade tool doesn't work.
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#321694 - 24/04/2009 13:50 Re: Thompsom firmware ? [Re: andy]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5794
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
After a lot more messing about I did manage to get the latest firmware installed, more by trial and error than by any other means, just kept doing seemingly the same thing until it worked.

That did enable a few more bits and pieces in the web UI, but I have to say compared to the other various routers I have used recently the UI is a bit of a disappointment. I have got used to being able to do everything I need via the web UI.

So back to the bad old days of configuring my router via the CLI frown

One example of something it won't let me do via the UI is assign a pre-existing IP address to a given MAC address via DHCP. It will let me fix an IP address once it has handed it out, but I have a set of MAC/IP mappings already that I want to keep. It looks like I can do it via the CLI, with lease times set to 0 seconds, but every other recent router I have used allows this sort of thing via the web UI.
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#321695 - 24/04/2009 14:52 Re: Thompsom firmware ? [Re: andy]
mlord
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Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14060
Loc: Canada
Here's the best source for Speedtouch firmware:

http://www.speedtouchforum.de/viewtopic.php?t=1089

And the upgrade tool:

http://mirror.opensourcehub.com/pub/speedtouch/utilities/UpgradeWiz/v4.4.2.1/

Yeah, their web UI is not the best for advanced use, but has everything that "normal people" need. I don't use it at all here, of course -- just treating the device as a dumb bridge and using PPPoE on my firewall/server box instead.

Cheers

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#321696 - 24/04/2009 15:10 Re: Thompsom firmware ? [Re: mlord]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5794
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Ok, this thing is really starting to annoy me know. Twice I have setup my DHCP range, fixed leases and full set of firewall rules. TWICE they have all vanished into thin air. The first time they just vanished while the router was sat doing nothing, the second time they crashed when I powered it off to move it to its permanent home.

What exactly do I need to do to save changes permanently ??? I would expect changes in the web UI to be saved when I hit "save" and I have been using "saveall" on the CLI changes I have made. What other magic incantation do I need to "really" save ???

It'll be going back in the box soon frown Can't remember the last time a bit of networking kit gave me this much hassle.
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#321703 - 24/04/2009 18:20 Re: Thompsom firmware ? [Re: andy]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5794
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
It has gone from bad to worse. I decided to make changes in small batches, save and reboot.

Made the first change, adding the DHCP pool, saved and rebooted. Now when it comes up I can't contact it, either via its "real" IP address or via its 192.168.1.254 address (with static addresses set on the laptop). I can't reach it via Ethernet or wifi (even though I get a link light for both).

From my experience so far I really couldn't recommend this to anyone who needs to actually make use of even the basic features beyond just a "standard" NAT setup.

I guess I'll have to do some sort of factory reset now to get it back.
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#321710 - 25/04/2009 10:40 Re: Thompsom firmware ? [Re: andy]
mlord
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Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14060
Loc: Canada
Two standard IP addresses from the factory for SpeedTouch:

10.0.0.138 and 192.168.1.254

Your computer will need proper port/routing setup to use either of those.

-ml

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#321711 - 25/04/2009 11:30 Re: Thompsom firmware ? [Re: mlord]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5794
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: mlord
Two standard IP addresses from the factory for SpeedTouch:

10.0.0.138 and 192.168.1.254

Your computer will need proper port/routing setup to use either of those.

My computer was setup correctly to use the 192.168.1.x range and was talking to the router happily right up to the point of rebooting it. I had to factory reset it, several times, until I managed to pin down what was breaking it.

It turns out that firewall rules on the ST must not have spaces in their names. Unfortunately the web UI allows you to add spaces and the underlying code in the backend allows the UI to save the rules with spaces. The CLI shows the rules setup, with their spaces.

As soon as you reboot however, one of two things can happen. Either the router comes back up with your firewall settings (and a whole bunch of others settings) discarded, which isn't too bad. Or even worse it comes back up, but with the firewall in some sort of broken state. When it comes back up broken you can't access the web UI or the CLI. So you have to do a factory reset and start again.

Interestingly when you do a factory reset it comes back up with no wifi security and the firewall turned off. Unfortunately it also remembers your ADSL login details, so faithfully connects you to the Internet with zero security in place. Nice.

I finally worked out what was going wrong with the firewall settings, when I discovered that the CLI correctly disallows you from putting a space in the firewall rule names. Once I worked that out I could at least set the firewall up without destroying my config every time I rebooted.

There were however other nasties in store.

I discovered that the web UI lets you set invalid endpoints in DHCP ranges (I set my DHCP range ending with the broadcast address, doh). That wouldn't be so bad if it just broke DHCP. However when you reboot, like the firewall error, it has collateral damage. When you have an invalid DHCP range it then forget that it knows anything about the subnet that the DHCP range was part of. It also then forgets all the firewall rules connected with it. Basically it throws away all your network config.

Again the CLI knows more than the web UI, if you enter the wrong DHCP range it tells you and disallows it.

Just when I thought I had everything setup I made the mistake of trusting the web UI again. I selected a couple of wifi devices via the web UI and selected "always use this IP for this device". The router instantly disconnected both devices and would then not let them reconnect via wifi.

After a lot of digging through the CLI I discovered that when the web UI set the DHCP leases for the two devices to infinite it also added them to the wifi MAC access control list with the setting set to "deny" !

So after a day and a half of very painful messing about I finally have it up and working. I'd love to make use of the QoS features and other advanced stuff, but at this point I am fearful of touching it.

I didn't think my requirements for a router were that demanding:

- no NAT
- reserved addresses in the single DHCP scope
- a dozen straight forward firewall holes

No other router has ever made it this difficult to get those simple things setup.

I have not mentioned some of the other issues I had along the way, including random rebooting after config changes.

The Thompson Speedtouch TG585n may well be a good ADSL modem, router and access point. I do know for sure though that its web UI is just not up to the task.

If you find yourself working on one of these routers, ignore the web UI for anything but the most basic details.


Edited by andy (25/04/2009 11:33)
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#321714 - 25/04/2009 20:15 Re: Thompsom firmware ? [Re: andy]
wfaulk
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Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Why have you not returned it?
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#321715 - 25/04/2009 20:45 Re: Thompsom firmware ? [Re: mlord]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1896
Loc: Leeds, UK
These modems are the best for line performance, that's fact. I, like Mark, just hand off all the other router type stuff to my clarkconnect box, I never use the router UI becasue it is a little consumer orientated.

It's worth sticking with it, if you don't see the line improvement straight away it may take a little time for your SP to catch up. As for the UI there is a knack to setting the IP range etc... I can't find the link I used last time frown

Cheers

Cris.

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#321716 - 25/04/2009 20:51 Re: Thompsom firmware ? [Re: wfaulk]
tman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
I've found the firmware for Speedtouch modems to be a little strange in operation. Once you've got it working how you want then it is usually fairly stable but getting it initially configured is the hard part.

The CLI is the only way to configure the Speedtouch if you're trying to do something that isn't covered by the basic GUI.

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#321719 - 26/04/2009 03:58 Re: Thompsom firmware ? [Re: Cris]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5616
Loc: London, UK
Originally Posted By: Cris
These modems are the best for line performance, that's fact.


So why doesn't my SpeedTouch 580 work at the ADSL2+ speeds I've got enabled on my line?

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#321720 - 26/04/2009 04:40 Re: Thompsom firmware ? [Re: Roger]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1896
Loc: Leeds, UK
Originally Posted By: Roger


So why doesn't my SpeedTouch 580 work at the ADSL2+ speeds I've got enabled on my line?



I don't know Roger. I have an ADSL2+ line too, and I think you have to be pretty close to the exchange to see any massive increase in speed with 2+.

Line performance isn't all about speed either, stability is a large part of good performance on DSL lines. I once sat with a BT Wholesale guy who used my line at home as an example for a couple of technical points we were discussing, by changing a few settings we were able to get my line to sync at the full 8Mbps. Unfortunately it would hold sync for about 5 minutes and then drop for 5 minutes. He then showed me it took the auto systems about 30 minutes to figure out my line can handle about 6Mbps at 100% uptime, I was quite impressed to be honest. So maybe your line can't handle the ADSL2+ speeds ???

Cheers

Cris.

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#321722 - 26/04/2009 05:56 Re: Thompsom firmware ? [Re: wfaulk]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5794
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: wfaulk
Why have you not returned it?

A very good question...

Because I bought it online, so I wouldn't be able to start the returns process until Monday and because I've now invested a day and a half of my life getting it working how I want it. I normally don't have to change anything on the router for several years at a time, so now I know how to work around its quirks I should be ok.
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#321723 - 26/04/2009 06:00 Re: Thompsom firmware ? [Re: Cris]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5794
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: Cris

It's worth sticking with it, if you don't see the line improvement straight away it may take a little time for your SP to catch up.


It will take much longer than that...

My Netgear router managed to max out the line most of the time anyway. Every now and again it would drop down to 6.5m for a few weeks, but mostly it stayed pegged at the max. So it will take a year or so until I know whether the Thomson is doing any better (and even then I won't really know as the line may have changed in the meantime).

Originally Posted By: Cris

As for the UI there is a knack to setting the IP range etc... I can't find the link I used last time frown


Yeah, the knack is not giving it an invalid range.
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#321724 - 26/04/2009 06:02 Re: Thompsom firmware ? [Re: Cris]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5794
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
One of the bug fixes in one of the Speedtouch firmwares I was looking at was "allow modem to automatically detect ADSL2+ and enable it". So maybe Roger's router doesn't know it should be using ADSL2+ ?
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#321725 - 26/04/2009 09:44 Re: Thompsom firmware ? [Re: Cris]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5616
Loc: London, UK
Originally Posted By: Cris
So maybe your line can't handle the ADSL2+ speeds ???


Are there any diagnostics I can see that'll show this "negotiation" of line speed?
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#321726 - 26/04/2009 09:48 Re: Thompsom firmware ? [Re: Roger]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5616
Loc: London, UK
Originally Posted By: Roger
Originally Posted By: Cris
So maybe your line can't handle the ADSL2+ speeds ???


It doesn't seem to handle ADSL 1 speeds; I get ~6.5Mbps out of 8Mbps. This after BT's 21CN upgrade. Are there any diagnostics I can see that'll show this "negotiation" of line speed?
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#321728 - 26/04/2009 11:42 Re: Thompsom firmware ? [Re: Roger]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14060
Loc: Canada
Look at the line up/down attenuation and noise margin figures. There are a number of references online that will translate those raw measures into typically attainable line speeds. Assuming, of course, that your ISP has set a compatible line profile to permit them.

Cheers

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#321746 - 27/04/2009 04:45 Re: Thompsom firmware ? [Re: Roger]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1896
Loc: Leeds, UK
Originally Posted By: Roger

It doesn't seem to handle ADSL 1 speeds; I get ~6.5Mbps out of 8Mbps. This after BT's 21CN upgrade.


If you are getting 6.5Mbps on ADSL then I would expect to see some kind of improvement on ADSL 2+ but you won't get the full 24Mbps of course, maybe 8-10Mbps. I think Andy made a good suggestion of checking the firmware and options to make sure the modem knows to use it. Also how do you know you are on an ADSL2+ DSLAM ???

For the best results get yourself on of those new fangled front plate filters BT are selling for 10, they cut the ringing circuit out which should give you a boost in speed if you have lots of extensions around your house.

21CN hasn't been rolled out yet, and won't really increase speeds in itself. 21CN is a major change in the back-haul service and most of us won't really notice the difference day to day. To cut it down to it's very basics they are changing to a fully IP based back haul for both voice and data between the exchanges, as this means a change of equipment us as end users can expect to see some new features but not massive increases beyond what is already possible with the range of DSL services on the market. I should also add if your SP has swapped you onto their own network for voice and data then 21CN won't effect you at all, as it's a BT Wholesale product and will only effect customers who's SP use BTW.

Cheers

Cris.

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#321747 - 27/04/2009 05:28 Re: Thompsom firmware ? [Re: Cris]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5794
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
I think by "after BT's 21CN upgrade" Roger probably meant that his exchange had been switched to 21CN. He lives fairly centrally in London, so it seems likely.

While 21CN doesn't automatically mean higher speeds, when it is announced that your exchange had been upgraded to 21CN then that also means ADSL2+ DSLAMs for your exchange. Or at least that is my understanding after following what Adrian for AAISP has been saying for the last year or so and he normally knows more about what BT are doing with ADSL than they do...

I've still got another year to wait for my exchange to switch.
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#321748 - 27/04/2009 06:23 Re: Thompsom firmware ? [Re: andy]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1896
Loc: Leeds, UK
Yea, like I said it doesn't really delivery anything really exciting in itself, the best you get is a new DSLAM but there is nothing new there as lots of the other operators already have them sat there waiting to go.

Before I left Openreach I was privy to some of the internal discussions within the group about the impact of 21CN. I think there is something to get excited about if you are an SP but as an end user it really isn't that exciting, at best it promises ADSL 2+ (there were discussions about VDSL which would be something different!) and less congestion in the back haul section.

Cheers

Cris.

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#321749 - 27/04/2009 06:27 Re: Thompsom firmware ? [Re: andy]
Roger
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Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5616
Loc: London, UK
Originally Posted By: andy
I think by "after BT's 21CN upgrade" Roger probably meant that his exchange had been switched to 21CN. He lives fairly centrally in London, so it seems likely.


Yep. I had confirmation from AAISP that my exchange has been switched to 21CN.
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#321750 - 27/04/2009 06:32 Re: Thompsom firmware ? [Re: Cris]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5616
Loc: London, UK
Originally Posted By: Cris
Also how do you know you are on an ADSL2+ DSLAM ???


As far as I can tell, confirmed by AAISP, and enabled on their web management console.

Quote:
For the best results get yourself on of those new fangled front plate filters BT are selling for 10, they cut the ringing circuit out which should give you a boost in speed if you have lots of extensions around your house.


We don't. Well, we've got various phone wires running around the house, but I don't know where some of them go. As far as what's actually in use, we have a socket by the front door with the ADSL modem and a DECT base unit (two handsets) plugged into it (obviously with a microfilter). Still worth getting one?

I'd rip out the rest of the cabling if I could work out what it's for. Alternatively, I'd move the modem to the attic (for improved WiFi coverage of the house, and so that Charlie can't play with it). The wiring appears to be the same gauge as the alarm system, unfortunately, so I'd have to trace it properly.
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#321751 - 27/04/2009 06:46 Re: Thompsom firmware ? [Re: mlord]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5616
Loc: London, UK
Originally Posted By: mlord
Look at the line up/down attenuation and noise margin figures.


For reference, while I go digging for those online references:

Code:
Output Power (dBm) up/down = 12.5 / 19.5
Attenuation (dB) up/down   = 16.5 / 34.0
Noise Margin (dB) up/down  = 7.0 / 7.0

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#321752 - 27/04/2009 07:36 Re: Thompsom firmware ? [Re: Roger]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1896
Loc: Leeds, UK
Originally Posted By: Roger
Still worth getting one?


If you have a BT Master NTE5 then you should be able to undo the 2 screws on the front and plug your router direct into the test socket, if you see an increase in speed then it will be worth getting the new face plate filter. Even wiring that is not being used can have a massive impact on broadband performance, esp if it's run in alarm cable!

Cheers

Cris.

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#321753 - 27/04/2009 07:45 Re: Thompsom firmware ? [Re: Cris]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1896
Loc: Leeds, UK
There are 2 thing out there at the moment, the BT I-Plate and the old faithful NTE 2000, both will help any ADSL line which has extension wiring beyond the NTE, if there is no extension wiring beyond the NTE then a good quality filter is just as good. It is also worth noting that the NTE 2000 was always an engineered fitted product and was never for general sale, it's my personal preference but does limit the use of the router at the NTE location.

You can also boost the speed without spending any money at all and disconnect the ringing circuit, labelled as 3 on the face plate, most plugin filters don't need that to be connected to ring anyway. If you have an I-Plate or NTE-2000 then there is no advantage in most cases of doing this.

Edit - In over 50% of cases I would say that broadband faults are within the home, and this is after the SP has done all the testing etc...

Cheers

Cris.


Edited by Cris (27/04/2009 07:47)

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#321754 - 27/04/2009 07:57 Re: Thompsom firmware ? [Re: Cris]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5794
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: Cris
Yea, like I said it doesn't really delivery anything really exciting in itself, the best you get is a new DSLAM but there is nothing new there as lots of the other operators already have them sat there waiting to go.

Before I left Openreach I was privy to some of the internal discussions within the group about the impact of 21CN. I think there is something to get excited about if you are an SP but as an end user it really isn't that exciting, at best it promises ADSL 2+ (there were discussions about VDSL which would be something different!) and less congestion in the back haul section.

If you are stuck on an non-unbundled exchange then getting 21CN and a new BT DSLAM is potentially exciting, as it gives the possibility of 8MB+ which those of us stuck on such exchanges haven't had access to before.
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#321755 - 27/04/2009 08:01 Re: Thompsom firmware ? [Re: Cris]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5794
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: Cris

Edit - In over 50% of cases I would say that broadband faults are within the home, and this is after the SP has done all the testing etc...

I can believe that. I was absolutely convinced that my Dad's ADSL problem couldn't be his wiring, as he got a sync but no PPP link. When I got there and moved his router to the master socket however it became clear that it was indeed caused by a dodgy extension with a failed microfilter.

I felt slightly embarrased after hassling plusnet repeatedly telling them it couldn't be a wiring problem blush
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