Because while the money, work, technology, development staff, and location seem ideal, the business is one that makes me super uncomfortable. Their business is to train people to make money at day trading through seminars and software which are purchased for $3K-5K; these purchases are prompted by high pressure sales techniques and infomercials. All of their posters/advertisements imply that they can help you turn your nest egg into a dream life of wealth and nothing is said about any kind of risk. I really do believe they have the best intentions (they are not intentionally scamming people), but nevertheless, people will be spending thousands of dollars with them with unrealistic expectations. Even though the development environment seemed like a decent fit for me, I couldn't sign on with a company that made me so uncomfortable.

So that got me thinking- for those of you who do not work for yourselves, at what point are you a "hired gun" just doing whatever it is you do, and how much do you have to believe in a company to work for it? And how much turning down jobs like the one I described above (for me at least) is a function of the time/places we live in?

Just an idle thought- I've never felt like I'd have to sell my soul to the devil to accept a job offer before, but that's exactly how I felt when I left the interview.

I think that threshhold is different for everybody. The reason I first came to this job (as an intern) was because I believed in the product and what it did for people.

Since then I've been offered a lot of money by headhunters to move to a different company (cost of living increase, then a flat 20% raise and a 20% signing bonus as well as relocation expenses). I declined it without a second thought, because I don't believe in that company's product nearly as much as I believe in mine.

All the money in the world won't help you enjoy your job if you don't believe in what they do. If you aren't happy with your job, other facets of your life will suffer because of it. I think you become a "hired gun" as soon as you forgo what you believe in for the money.

I guess I just think that right now I can afford to be choosy because I am not desperate for work; in another time or place, maybe I'd be forced to take a job for a company I don't believe in rather than see my family starve. Obviously none of us are even close to that situation, but it makes me think that it's a blessing we can afford to be selective.

I once refused a job offer because I disagreed with the company philosophy, yes.

Actually, they turned me down the first time (thus saving me the thrill of turning them down). Then, a year later, they contacted me again to re-apply because they needed more people. I said no and came just short of laughing in their faces.

The story of the interview is interesting... I thought I'd recounted it here on this BBS before but a search isn't coming up with anything, so I'll tell it now:

I was interviewing for a Sysadmin position. I'd been job hunting for quite a while and was used to what all the job listings in the Seattle area looked like. Usually the job listing had a checklist of server products and version numbers that you needed to have experience with in order to be considered.

This job listing was unusual because it only listed a vague description of the sysadmin-specific skills. It concentrated more on describing the desired candidate's personality traits: Intelligence, work ethic, communication skills, etc.

The interview day was extremely strange. They made me sign a bunch of stuff, including filling out a full job application (no one else had made me fill out the app unless they liked me AFTER the interview). The job application needed my signature as well, and required me to agree to an aptitude test and a full background check. This wasn't entirely unexpected since the company made some kind of surveillance and security hardware/software package.

What was strangest about the interview was that it consisted entirely of an IQ test. There was no verbal interview at all. It was also a very odd, very culturally biased IQ test. And the questions on the test were not just IQ related; they seemed to be vaguely interested in my business and personal ethics as well as my intelligence. This, still, didn't bother me because I always do well on IQ tests and I consider myself to be an ethical person.

Administration of the test was weird, though. They told me it would be timed, but didn't say how much time I had. I was only halfway done with the test when the secretary came in and told me I had to stop the test and leave, and that the interview was over. They gave me exactly enough time to get home and go to the bathroom, then called me and said that I did not perform well enough on the aptitude test to be considered.

Of course it was all explained by the fine print on the pamphlet on the company's reception counter.

In and of itself, the pamphlet seemed innocuous. It was a small booklet about business ethics, and how to run a successful business while still being ethical. It was nice enough, but something about its printing style, its layout, and the typefaces used just screamed "Watchtower" to me.

Now, if the company *had* been run by Jehova's Witnesses, that actually would have been *just fine*. I'm perfectly willing to work for a company run by members of a genuine religious organization, as long as they don't mind the fact that I'm not a member of their religion. But I knew that wasn't what was going on here. No, despite the fact that the pamphlet looked like a Watchtower, these weren't JW's.

Curious about who the heck these people were, I flipped quickly to the back of the pamphlet and looked at the fine print in the publishing credits.

You get one guess as to whose name I found there...

Disney?

Hubbard.

Scientologists?

Having only ever turned down two jobs I'm not sure I have much experience in the matter. I've turned them down simply based on the remuneration package they offered. I was also unsuccessful once which at the time pissed me off. Now, with the benefit of hindsight and speaking to the person who was successful, I'm glad I didn't get it. Turns out the station manager is a tit.

Given my field of expertise is fairly narrow, unless I move out of the industry, I'm always going to be working for a broadcaster, or systems integrator. Unlike an IT person who could work for a multitude of different industries. The only example of a broadcaster I can think of that I might consider not wanting to work for would be Fox News in the US, simply because they're so seemingly unhinged. But they aren't conning people out of money or employing children to make t shirts in a sweatshop somewhere, so I don't think I'd have a problem with my conscience.

I'd like to point out that I actually starting writing my post before Tony answered. So I claim the win!

I have to say that this sounds a little bit like the Archdiocese of Boston or Reverend Ike. I think you made a good call.

Chiming in on this thread, generally... I agree that there's no way you can take a long-term job working for a company which you feel is evil, for whatever that term happens to mean to you. Of course, you can pick any given company, and no two people will agree on whether or not they're evil.

Furthermore, there's a world of difference between taking a full-time job and doing a short-term consulting gig, much less the specifics of the job. If you were, say, an air conditioner repairman and the Scientologists had a broken A/C unit, you wouldn't feel quite as bad about going in and fixing their A/C as you might feel about, say, designing their latest marketing campaign.

(At one extreme end, I know a lawyer who defended the Scientologists in several lawsuits. He was emphatically not a Scientologist, but felt that they deserved capable representation as much as anybody else.)

The last time I went to a recruiter, one of the questions they asked was whether I'd have any ethical problems with being put forward to defence industry companies. Nowadays I bet they ask that question about financial companies too

I think you don't necessarily have to positively believe in it, but you shouldn't be positively disbelieving in it. I withdrew a job application only recently to a company whose product (once I signed up for the public beta, which in fairness I should really have done before applying in the first place) fell so ludicrously far short of how the marketing materials described it, as to make accepting a salary from them feel like some kind of personal complicity in fleecing their VCs.

Peter

In my industry headhunters are currently frantic, think I have turned down 40+ direct offers (not even interviews - requiring only quick telephone interview - presumably to check I'm not mental) but none are what I would class as ethical. I know some people would consider my firm bad as it is connected with the financial industry (fairly intimately) but I am happy that I help to find and fix badness (even though this sometimes means protecting the greedy) in a way that meets my morals.

I'd need not only an amazing package to consider moving, but it would have to be one of the right companies - and there aren't a lot on my list.

Yeah, I'm pretty confident I made the right decision. I've never left a job interview feeling like that before.

The more I think about it, the more I realize just what a bad situation this was. I should also mention the owner's claims up front to about 11 interviewees that this was a "Christian based company", yet nothing displayed beyond that statement was remotely Christian (not that I would expect to work in a faith based environment outside of a business with a specific religious mission).

What I did find fascinating was how he handled my personal interview vs. another coworker of mine that was also going for the same position (we compared notes later). For my coworker, he offered the job and told him he needed an immediate answer because he needed "people who can make decisions"; when my coworker refused to answer, he told him to go read some book about how the most successful people in the world know how to make big decisions based on their gut. In my case, I was also offered the position, but he only asked how quickly I could have a decision to him (I told him the next day- I was already pretty sure I was going to decline, but I want to fact check the company and test my reads). He accepted this quite readily and did not push me at all. My coworker is still considering the job. It seems this guy knows who he can push around and who he cannot (if he's pushed me the way he pushed my coworker, I simply would have declined right then and there)
. Not really the kind of situation I want to be in, no matter what the pay.

At this point, the only odd thing to me is how he's managed to retain some pretty capable people (at least one of the interviewers really impressed me).

Incidentally, did you know that the book The No-Asshole Rule has a whole chapter on Steve Jobs? I dunno what suddenly made me think of that...

Peter

Sounds like you should be glad you got out of there so easily. Other people have endured additional freakiness.
Check out this guy's story:

I Needed A Job, And Xenu Was Hiring

(Apologies for the late response, Tony. But I don't think anyone else had posted this yet.)

Heh. His experience was a lot more overt than mine. All I got was the IQ test, and the only place Hubbard's name appeared was in the fine print at the back of the pamphlet about business ethics. I think the IQ test was exactly the same one, though, based on his description.