The new Samsung iPad is apparently going to cost AU$999 in Australia. That's $200 more expensive than the original Apple iPad. And you know, the Apple one actually has applications you can run on it and a far bigger screen.
I know who won't be selling more than a dozen iPads this year. Starts with "Sam" and rhymes with "Dung."
Edited by drakino (24/09/201019:07) Edit Reason: splitting off samsung tab stuff
Dignan carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Har har har. You're hilarious.
All these early pricing stories don't really say anything to me. Don't we see early pricing for all kinds of gadgets reaching insane levels?
Besides, didn't someone from Samsung say that they expect it to sell for $200 to $300? Now, I expect that number, if true, would be for a contract, in which case I would never buy one because I don't want 3G. But if that were the actual price, that would be pretty killer.
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
And you know, the Apple one actually has applications you can run on it...
I'm not even sure I know what that means. I have to assume (because you aren't actually saying anything) that you mean there aren't any apps written specifically for the device and its form factor.
Well, that's probably true. I'm sure nobody has written an app specifically for the device because nobody has one yet. However, not only should all apps in the Android Market already work on the device, if the programmers were coding correctly they should already have created their apps to support this screen resolution, and will therefore probably scale a whole lot better than iPhone apps look on the iPad (which is, to put it lightly, like ass). They might not look quite as good as apps written specifically for the iPad, but given time the developers will probably improve on that front too.
Listen, I don't think the Tab is going to be a sensation like the iPad. It's only the first big player in the Android tablet market. I most likely won't be interested in it in the least (I have to see the screen size first and see how easy it is to read comics on it). But there will be more Android tablets, and my bet is that at least one of them will be quite good.
We don't see pricing for all early release gadgets reaching insane levels. When Apple announces a price, it pretty much stays there. And while the price may often be high, with the exception of the iPhone, none have been "insane" - they're at least usually competitive with what else is out there.
I don't think the Samsung iPad is going to make even the slightest splash. Yes, $300 *may* be the price on contract with a cell provider. What kind of tablet computer needs a monthly contract? Is this thing supposed to replace your cell phone? Maybe the Australian price won't be as high as claimed, but so far it's being backed by VP's of the company in that country who go so far as to claim that $799 on contract is "fair." Hmm. That's the price of the more capable Apple version with a larger screen without any kind of contract. See, they can try to copy based on pictures and even using one, but even beyond their design failures, their marketing guys just trip all over themselves when it comes to basic business practices.
No apps = the thing is running a pre-alpha OS that's intended solely for small mobile devices with small mobile screens. Google has stated already that Android in its current form is not suited for tablets. That's what the Chrome OS was for, and as rumor has it, what may come in a future Android release. That's why I call it "pre-alpha."
The simple facts are that, as predicted, the real Apple iPad set the stage for tablet computing and everything that comes after it is, for the time being, going to be a rubbish, but pale, imitation. That's not the way things need to play out, but it's what happens when you have no-talent companies like Samsung behind the design wheel.
I love innovation, but this Samsung iPad is just crap. Like their phones.
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Not that I have actually used one but the Archos is making what appears to be a decent stab at an Android tablet. True you don't have access to the Android market, but there is it's own version and from what I have seen there seems to be quite a few apps available and I think there is an SDk available too. Haven't seen a 3G version so you are limited on the mobility, but there are many capacity choices including 500GB hard drive versions, and the prices seem pretty competative. I was toying with the Archos 5 Internet Tablet with integrated GPS to use as a carputer
Dignan carpal tunnel
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Originally Posted By: hybrid8
We don't see pricing for all early release gadgets reaching insane levels. When Apple announces a price, it pretty much stays there.
And that seems to be the part you're missing. Samsung hasn't announced a price. I don't think the prices you're seeing are ones they're setting.
*edit* Oh, and using Apple as the primary example? That just doesn't work. They're selling their own products in their own stores, so of course they set the prices (yes, I know you can buy Apple products elsewhere, but who is going to buy an iPad at Best Buy if it's $50 more?).
We're talking about a company (Samsung) which, like most companies, puts out the product with an MSRP, and the stores that sell them can decide what price they want to put on it.
(continuing the off thread topic about android tablets in the iPad thread)
So a Samsung VP commenting "we believe this is a fair price." on the Australian one, and many companies around the world (including O2 Germany) setting their end user price isn't official enough? Are you assuming prices are going to be lower or higher then these practically official prices?
And Apple is a perfectly valid comparison. Apple Inc makes products, sets an MSRP, then sells them at their MSRP through official Apple stores. They also have thousands of resellers worldwide (from small privately owned stores to chains like Best Buy) that sell Apple Inc. made products.
Unless of course it's not valid to then also compare to how HP, Dell, Sony and many other vendors sell their products. They make things, set an MSRP, offer them for sale online via their sites, along with sending them out to places like Best Buy. Dell and Sony both also run their own physical stores.
All Bruno is doing is reposting info available out there and he's seeing the same pricing I see. And we aren't alone. This isn't some Apple fanboy thing, even journalists like Peter Rojas are commenting on it, based on official prices he sees on Amazon.co.uk and other locations.
And besides, who cares what the MSRP is? Thats not the amount of money leaving my pocket. It's instead the prices that Amazon and others are using now to sell the device, and so far, they are all more expensive then the iPad. I know, it goes against the widely held myth that Apple has an "Apple Tax" that automatically makes their products more expensive then everyone else, but thats the state of things today.
Splitting this off into it's own thread now, since the Samsung Tab part is being actively discussed.
Samsung posted a 9 minute video showing off the Tab and the software on it.
Looks like they spent more time on the Tab trying to mimic the Apple iOS UI compared to the Captivate phone I had. Still not quite there though, with a few UI transitions missing, and others not quite looking right. Not sure how I'd like swype on such a big screen either, seems like a lot more unnecessary finger motion compared to a phone. The full UI to the TV was slick though, something I wish Apple would do to all of their units and not just Steve's.
I think it is impressive. Meaning that, as expected, it is indeed getting there to compete.
If I get the correct impression from this video, that level of GUI effectiveness, while not yet as optimized or stylish as the iPad, would easily win my preference if coupled with 1 or 2 USB ports, support for external drives, possibly removable battery, a price at least 25% lower than an iPad. And the software hackability coming from Android.
Leaked pricing from T-Mobile is pointing to $449 with a two year contract, and a $50 mail in rebate to bring the cost to $399. Unsubsidized, $649. The comparable iPad (16GB with 3G) is $629. Looks like the Samsung tax is $20, probably to help pay for all the exclamation marks in this comparison page. Sprint leaked pricing was pointing to $399 on contract, or $599 without. In that case it would be coming in slightly cheaper then the iPad. Guess we still have to wait to see what the actual price is, but it's not looking like it's going to be dramatically different then the iPad.
It's got a smaller screen than the iPad. Build quality isn't going to be anywhere near the iPads. At this point, while Apple's offering may seem high priced, I don't think anyone else can build an equivalent product for the same price. No one has been able to match the iPhone quality/feature to price ratio yet either.
At the end of the day it's gong to be joined by a number of similar devices, all running an OS that is not suited whatsoever for tablet use. These products, just like Android phones are going to continue to carry a premium price for a generic beige-box product. It's like paying BMW prices for a random GM vehicle - sometimes sporting a BMW-like body kit. Most of these products are no better than cheap/typical no-name Chinese knock-offs in execution AND in branding/marketing.
I think Apple have even less reason to be worried about competition in the tablet space at this point than they did about phones two years ago. They'll continue to bring home the lion's share of the profits.
These guys have to stop trying to copy individual Apple products and instead start copying Apple and its business/development strategies. Everyone has their heads so far up their asses they can't see the simple writing that's been on the wall for 10 years, having started with the iPod. That means creating a true premium product, differentiate it from everything else out there, limit your sku diversification and concentrate on building the brand one iteration at a time.
What happens when a real tablet OS from Google ships? Will it be Android 3 or Chrome OS or both?
Dignan carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
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Originally Posted By: drakino
Leaked pricing from T-Mobile is pointing to $449 with a two year contract, and a $50 mail in rebate to bring the cost to $399. Unsubsidized, $649. The comparable iPad (16GB with 3G) is $629. Looks like the Samsung tax is $20, probably to help pay for all the exclamation marks in this comparison page. Sprint leaked pricing was pointing to $399 on contract, or $599 without. In that case it would be coming in slightly cheaper then the iPad. Guess we still have to wait to see what the actual price is, but it's not looking like it's going to be dramatically different then the iPad.
There are two bad things about these price rumors:
First, clearly these prices aren't low enough. Any way you cut it, the Tab is more expensive than its iPad counterparts, and that's just not acceptable. Clearly the carriers think that the public will be fooled by sticker price and not think about the contract. Of course, given the evidence, they're probably right. But still, even at $400 it's still too expensive to compete with the iPad. If it's $300 with a contract then we can start talking, but at $400 I think it's a non-starter.
Second, isn't it going to be suspicious when this thing comes out and every single carrier is essentially selling it for $400? What, has it taken so long for the price to be announced because they're all getting together and deciding how much they'll charge? Where's Michael Arrington on this?
I was never hot on the Tab for two reasons: first, the screen size is just too small for what I want to do with it, which is primarily reading comics. And the other reason is that after hearing about what Samsung has done to their Galaxy S phones (thanks to Tom), why would I put any faith in their ability to create software on top of Android for a tablet?
I'm waiting for the tablet that runs plain, straight-up Android, and isn't some crappy knock-off type product. I guess I'm waiting for the Nexus One of tablets, but I fear that that product will never come...
I'll boil down the difference between Apple iOS devices and Android devices.
I'd say that 99.9% of all iPhone customers buy the product because they're looking for that specific product - they want an iPhone/iOS phone.
In contrast, I suspect not more than 1-10% of purchasers of Android handsets make their choice based on the OS or product itself. Most of the volume is made up of people who just want a smart phone, period.
The story for tablets is going to be a bit different, but I think this concept will still play out to some degree.
Well, Steve Jobs has cast his predictions about the Samsung Tab, along with any other 7 inch tablet. (Link is to the MP3 version of Jobs talk during the Apple Q4 2010 earnings announcement.)
I'd like to comment on the avalanche of tablets poised to enter the market in the coming months.
First, it appears to be just a handful of credible entrants, not exactly an avalanche.
Second, almost all of them use 7 inch screens, as compared to iPads almost 10 inch screen. Let's start there. One naturally thinks that a 7 inch screen offers 70% of the benefits of a 10 inch screen. Unfortunately this is far from the truth. The screen measurements are diagonal, so the 7 inch screen is only 45% as large as iPads 10 inch screen. If you take an iPad and hold it upright in portrait view, and draw an imaginary horizontal line halfway down the screen, the screens on the 7 inch tablets are a bit smaller then the bottom half of the iPad display. This size isn't sufficient to create great tablet apps, in our opinion. While one could increase the resolution of the display to make up for some of the difference, it is meaningless unless your tablet also includes sandpaper, so that the user can sand down their fingers to around one quarter of their present size. Apple has done extensive user testing on touch user interfaces over many years, and we really understand this stuff. There are clear limits of how close you can physically place elements on a touch screen before users cannot reliably tap flick or pinch them. This is one of the key reason we think 10 inch screen size is the minimum size required to create great tablet apps.
Third, every tablet user is also a smartphone user. No tablet can compete with the mobility of a smart phone. It's ease of fitting into your pocket or purse, it's unobtrusiveness when used in a crowd. Given that all tablet users will already have a smartphone in their pockets, giving up precious display area to fit a tablet in our pockets is clearly the wrong tradeoff. The 7 inch tablets are tweeners, too big to compete with a smartphone, and too small to compete with an iPad.
Fourth, almost all of these new tablets use Android software, but even Google is telling the tablet manufacturers not to use their current release, Froyo, for tablets and to wait for a special tablet release next year. What does this mean when your software supplier says not to use their software in your tablet, and what does it mean when you ignore them and use it anyway.
Fifth, iPad now has over 35,000 apps on the app store. This new crop of tablets will have near zero.
And sixth and last, our potential competitors are having a tough time coming close to iPads pricing, even with their far smaller, far less expensive screens. The iPad incorporates everything we've learned about building high value products, from iPhones, iPods, and Macs. We create our own A4 chip, our own software, our own battery chemistry, our own enclosure, our own everything. And this results in an incredible product at a great price. The proof of this will be in the pricing of our competitors products, which will likely offer less for more.
These are among the reasons we think the current crop of 7 inch tablets are going to be DOA, dead on arrival. Their manufacturers will learn the painful lesson that their tablets are too small, and increase the size next year, thereby abandoning both customers and developers who jumped on the 7 inch bandwagon with an orphaned product. Sounds like lots of fun ahead.
Only time will tell if these statements are from fear of the upcoming tablets cannibalizing the iPad, or if they are warnings the rest of the industry should heed.
I was curious about the screen size part, and did the math. The iPad screen is 9.7 inches, in a 4:3 form factor. Thus roughly 7.75 x 5.83 inches, or 45.19 square inches of usable touch area, at a 1024x768 resolution. The Samsung Tab has a 7 inch 16:9 form factor screen. Thus roughly 3.43 x 6.1 inches, or 20.92 square inches at 1024x600 resolution. The ~45% figure Jobs mentioned seems to be right, and isn't something I've considered before. I wonder how many of the Android tablet developer will keep this in mind, and adjust their UI appropriately.
Dignan carpal tunnel
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I'm not saying he isn't right about all of that, but how often does Steve write up something like that about competing products? I wouldn't think he'd usually waste his time commenting on something he didn't consider a competitor...
Very good point, and clearly he sees the other tablets as valid competition. The question is in what way? Two important lesson he learned with a previous big battle he was involved in (Windows vs Mac), is that being better and first doesn't guarantee long term success. You also need enough of the market to adopt it and set their expectations high so that they will then disregard competitors. Apple was pretty much first to mass market with a GUI, and maintained a superior GUI to the competition for a number of years. Due to Apple's missteps after Jobs was forced out, along with the efforts of Microsoft and IBM, most people use Windows on PCs today because it became good enough.
His comments about the competing tablets in the 7 inch space may be an attempt to try and push people to the iPad first, to ensure their expectations are set very high when considering competitors. If an end user picks up a 7 inch tablet running a version of Android not optimized for tablets, they still may see it as good enough, and not investigate the iPad deeply to understand the differences.
The tablet clearly has a lot of potential, and will probably continue to shape personal computing well into the next decade. Due to it's potential to cannibalize the notebook market, an area Apple has a decent presence in, the tablet market is something they wants to hang onto for long term success.
The earnings call is directed at media an analysts, so it's important to take that into consideration. Steve was definitely heading off a lot of questions he knew would be coming Apple's way from these folks.
I suspect Steve is more confident in the iPad than I am. And I don't personally think any of the current crop of 7" products stands any chance whatsoever. I suspect most of them will be abandoned within 5 to 6 months.
Second, almost all of them use 7 inch screens, as compared to iPads almost 10 inch screen. Let's start there. One naturally thinks that a 7 inch screen offers 70% of the benefits of a 10 inch screen. Unfortunately this is far from the truth. The screen measurements are diagonal, so the 7 inch screen is only 45% as large as iPads 10 inch screen.
Oh, cool. It sounds like a tablet that's just the right size for me. I don't need a tablet the size of a pad of paper.
Quote:
Third, every tablet user is also a smartphone user.
Well, maybe every current tablet user, but I'm not a smartphone user. In fact, I don't have a cell-phone at all. But I wouldn't mind having one of these small tablets for travel.
Quote:
Fifth, iPad now has over 35,000 apps on the app store. This new crop of tablets will have near zero.
And how many of those iPad apps are just iPhone apps that also work on the tablet, just like the way bunches of Android phone apps will also just work on the tablet? "Near zero?" Umm... okay.
Oh, cool. It sounds like a tablet that's just the right size for me. I don't need a tablet the size of a pad of paper.
I think from Jobs' perspective, he sees the iPad as a separate type of device, and the usable screen size factors into it. iPad apps can be distinctly different then iPhone apps due to the extra space, allowing for things like Keynote, Pages and Numbers (Apple's office products) to feel more like desktop apps, and less like at a glance or minimal editing apps on the iPhone side. When you cut the usable surface area down 45%, that comes with a 45% shrinkage in valid touchable areas, and thus in Jobs' mind, the apps become slightly larger versions of iPhone apps instead of closer to desktop apps.
I don't personally see this as a big deal currently, as most of my iPad usage is in apps that would work pretty much the same way on either device. I however don't use a lot of the apps Jobs probably has in mind.
I do see developers needing to make the mentality switch from the old resolution based UIs, and towards DPI based ones. A mouse cursor isn't affected by resolution changes much in terms of usability, but a human finger is.
canuckInOR
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Originally Posted By: hybrid8
Originally Posted By: canuckInOR
And how many of those iPad apps are just iPhone apps that also work on the tablet,
None. That figure is for iPad-specific apps. iPhone app count is approaching 300k. And pretty much all of those also work on the iPad.
My point being that Steve is trying to make it sound like there won't be any apps available for the tablets when they come out, which is a pretty dubious claim.
Quote:
If you're interested in a 7" tablet, you might be more interested in an iPod touch or a small Android PMP from Archos. Much more portable.
If I wanted something the size of a PDA, I'd already have a smartphone, or an iPod touch. But I don't... I want something in-between. A 7" tablet is, for me, a happy medium -- the ideal size. I had been looking at some of the smaller netbooks (such as the ASUS T91mt), but will wait a bit, now.
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
Originally Posted By: drakino
Originally Posted By: canuckInOR
Oh, cool. It sounds like a tablet that's just the right size for me. I don't need a tablet the size of a pad of paper.
I think from Jobs' perspective, he sees the iPad as a separate type of device, and the usable screen size factors into it.
Usually when Steve Jobs is particularly vitriolic about a certain market segment, all that means is that Apple haven't got a product in that segment for this product cycle and that he's cross about that. His anti-cheapo-flash-player ranting reached its peak one product cycle before the Ipod Shuffle came out.
The thing is, Apple had 7" prototypes. Apple produces at least as many devices/variations they don't release as they do release. At least that was the norm up until 5 years ago when I was last in the direct loop.
Originally Posted By: canuckInOR
My point being that Steve is trying to make it sound like there won't be any apps available for the tablets when they come out, which is a pretty dubious claim.
But he's already right. 7" Android tablets are already available, but there are no Android tablet apps.
Android tablet apps won't come until Google release a tablet version of Android - and that won't be until some time next year.
canuckInOR
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Originally Posted By: hybrid8
Originally Posted By: canuckInOR
My point being that Steve is trying to make it sound like there won't be any apps available for the tablets when they come out, which is a pretty dubious claim.
But he's already right. 7" Android tablets are already available, but there are no Android tablet apps.
There's a difference between "there are no apps written specifically for an Android tablet," and "there are no apps for an Android tablet." The latter is the "oh noes" FUD mindset that Jobs wants to propagate. The former just elicits a big "so?"
To make one thing perfectly clear: This is a compatible device; Android Market is there and you can download apps and they run. [...] Most apps work fine, and pretty well all of them look better on the bigger screen. There are still some here and there that drop into shoeboxed compatibility mode, but fewer every day.
Ok, then the iPad has 300000 apps. But Apple doesn't make that leap, they're comparing Apples to Apples. As much as people think there's a reality distortion field around Jobs, it's nothing compared to the BS around most other executives at other companies.
canuckInOR
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Originally Posted By: hybrid8
Ok, then the iPad has 300000 apps. But Apple doesn't make that leap, they're comparing Apples to Apples.
Because it makes for a statistic that helps them look good, but which is pretty meaningless for... well... anyone else. It's not impressive to say "iPad users can choose from 300000 apps, but Android tablet users can only currently select from 80000 apps." Jobs is specifically trying to create the impression that Android tablet users can't run anything. Lies, damn lies, and statistics.
Quote:
As much as people think there's a reality distortion field around Jobs
I'm not claiming there's a reality distortion field around Jobs, I'm claiming he's spreading FUD through cherry-picked statistics couched in language that lets people like you get hung up on semantics, rather than being honest about what he's trying to do. I'm calling a spade a spade.
Quote:
it's nothing compared to the BS around most other executives at other companies.
But we aren't talking about "most other executives at other companies," so I don't really care what they're saying, nor how much of whatever they're saying is BS, and I'm certainly not giving Jobs a pass because he's not as bad as the other guys. I might as well vote for a lizard.
I suppose in this instance I agree with Jobs. There are no Android tablet apps. That doesn't mean you can't run mobile phone Android apps on a 7" Android device. And he didn't imply that. I think he was very clear in the message he gave and the audience he addressed is well versed in the products being discussed as well as what's currently available for them. This was an analyst/media event.
The pont he made well is that a 7" screen doesn't make for a compelling tablet experience and the producer of the OS itself is advising partners not to use their OS on tablet products. So consumers would be ill-advised to buy in to the current offerings. He did admit that Android is where the tablet competition will come from however.
The comment I objected to myself was the one about the sandpaper because a 7" tablet would be too small to use with normal fingers. That would certainly be the case if trying to use software designed for a 10" screen, but obviously software could be designed for a smaller screen in the same way alternative UI is implemented for the even smaller mobiles.
Dignan carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
Originally Posted By: canuckInOR
And how many of those iPad apps are just iPhone apps that also work on the tablet,
None. That figure is for iPad-specific apps. iPhone app count is approaching 300k. And pretty much all of those also work on the iPad.
If you're interested in a 7" tablet, you might be more interested in an iPod touch or a small Android PMP from Archos. Much more portable.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you here, but I'll point out that the same will apply for Android apps (that they'll all at least work on the tablets), and if they're written properly (to Google's guidelines), they should be relatively resolution independent, so they might look better than iPhone apps do on the iPad (which is to say, like ass). But there will still be issues, as aspect ratios will be different, and the main problem is that none of them are designed with the tablet in mind, so they'll still have a "small screen" mindset.
I think I'll be waiting a while.
Oh, and I have one more comment on Steve's little Android rant. He should at least be accurate when dragging his developers into the F.U.D. with him Maybe he was thinking of the wrong developer...
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
As much as people think there's a reality distortion field around Jobs, it's nothing compared to the BS around most other executives at other companies.
I always thought the "reality distortion field" thing wasn't really about whether Steve Jobs BS'es more than other executives do (Ballmer!), it was about whether his BS was taken more seriously. When Zune was all "welcome to the social", people just rolled their eyes; when Jobs started talking about the Retina Display, it got reported as if "retina" was a competing technology to LCD or OLED.
it got reported as if "retina" was a competing technology to LCD or OLED.
Really? I think I recall only ever reading anyone describe it as a high resolution IPS LCD.
But I wouldn't be surprised to hear that someone(s) out there misreported it. Having worked so many tradeshows, I've heard a lot of different interpretations for things I'd always thought of as simple facts or specs.
The iTab is going to be $600 at Verizon starting November 11th. Good luck with that. $100 more expensive than the base iPad and only $30 cheaper than the iPad+MiFi bundle Verizon is also selling.
Why is every generic and brown-bag manufacturer using a 7" panel to make their generic and yawn-inducing "tablet" products? No one finds it strange that not one of them wants to distinguish themselves from their contemporaries? None of them wants to setup up to the big leagues to compete with a tier 1 company like Apple? Outright copying Apple's industrial design is not competition.
Did Jobs call these products a "bag of hurt" this time around? That's an understatement if so.
The smartest (though also most obvious) thing I've read lately comes from LG:
Quote:
Windows 7 is based on the same paradigm as 1985 -- it's really an interface that's optimized for a mouse and keyboard
And of course that Android isn't currently suited for functioning tablets.
Third, every tablet user is also a smartphone user.
Well, maybe every current tablet user, but I'm not a smartphone user. In fact, I don't have a cell-phone at all. But I wouldn't mind having one of these small tablets for travel.
I'm not a smartphone user either. My current cellphone is like a Sony Ericsson W518a (and I had to look that up in our system) that work gave me, or I wouldn't have a cellphone.
canuckInOR
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Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
I suppose in this instance I agree with Jobs. There are no Android tablet apps. That doesn't mean you can't run mobile phone Android apps on a 7" Android device. And he didn't imply that.
I think we'll have to disagree on this. I think he chose his words in such a way to allow the analyst/media people to misunderstand, but that would allow him to say "no, no... I meant..."
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
The point he made well is that a 7" screen doesn't make for a compelling tablet experience
Which is certainly a valid opinion, even if not universally shared. I might, for example, want a 10" iPad for business use, but a 7" tablet for personal use while traveling abroad.
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
and the producer of the OS itself is advising partners not to use their OS on tablet products.
When Apple (and NeXT) was an underdog, his evangelism ("Insanely Great", etc.) was the mark of a spunky company trying to produce something different. Disparaging the competition is just grandstanding.
Now that Apple is a market leader (in many markets, to boot) his evangelism sounds like whiny bitching. It sounds like he's far more concerned with disparaging others' products than in promoting his own, and it comes across as tone-deaf whining. I feel like he might take his ball and go home at any minute now.
I guess that this is the best example: when you're an underdog, saying that your competitors' products are crap is promoting your quality; when you become a market leader, the same claim is just mudslinging. Is this a problem of perception? Of course; nothing has really changed about Jobs' attitude. But we're talking about perception.
That said, I do think that Apple continues to make higher quality products than their competitors (though their customer service is faltering, IMO), and I'm glad that quality can still sometimes win out over economics.
But why can't Jobs accept competition? He used to produce something that he believed filled a niche. Why are other companies not allowed (by him) to do the same? No company can produce a product that fills every possible role. I think Apple has made a good choice in producing fewer higher-quality products, at the expense of limiting choice somewhat. (For example, compare the PC configurator at Apple versus the ones at Lenovo and Dell.) But that doesn't mean that the products they make are going to suit everyone. Other manufacturers recognize this and try to distinguish their products. Jobs comes across as telling customers that other products are crap because if you don't like what Apple has to offer, then you're doing it wrong; Steve knows best.
Once I had some time to think a bit about some other elements of Jobs rant, I also have issue with his assertion that iOS is an integrated solution. You might say it's integrated because you get pretty much the same iOS experience across multiple devices, but iOS itself, especially the core pieces of software Apple ships with it, are anything but integrated.
Do you want to wake up to one of the songs stored on your iPhone or iPod? Sorry the built-in clock/alarm program doesn't do music of any kind and can't access your music library.
Maybe you'd like to set a particular song to act as your ring tone? Sorry, the phone application doesn't access your music library either.
Maybe you'd like to move some piece of data from one application to another... Oops, can't do that either unless it's something that can easily be Cut and Pasted.
iOS' built-in software all feels unfinished to me. There are some polished bits, but it's like a really shiny car missing door openings in some respects.
Still, it's the best of the worst - something I always say to describe Apple.
Too bad RIM's 7" is gong to fail miserably even in comparison to other similar products out there.
People primarily have Blackberries because they're mandated, not because they want them. I think the RIM CEO is putting a little too much stake in his brand power.
In the US/Canada maybe. For some reason in the UK Blackberries have become very popular with teenagers, don't really know why.
Very popular with teenagers in Italy as well. I can't explain why either.
I'm among those who would use it only if that's the only option provided by my employer. I've actually used an 8900 for a while, and did not mind it. Loved by many, here, but not my favorite.
andym carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
Originally Posted By: andy
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
People primarily have Blackberries because they're mandated, not because they want them.
In the US/Canada maybe. For some reason in the UK Blackberries have become very popular with teenagers, don't really know why.
Perhaps because they offer a similar range of features to the iPhone without costing as much? Plus they get name checked by knob-end rappers all the time.
I doubt there's much kudos in owning an Android handset in the 15 to 20 age demographic. Personally I'd rather go back to my Startac than own a Blackberry.
Dignan carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: andym
I doubt there's much kudos in owning an Android handset in the 15 to 20 age demographic.
Agreed, there's not much caché in Android. Definitely not as hip as the iPhone. I'm not certain what that age range uses in my region...
Quote:
Personally I'd rather go back to my Startac than own a Blackberry.
Ugh, agreed again. The day I traded in my Blackberry for my G1 was a good day. The G1 may have been slow as molasses, but at least I had a decent smartphone OS. And I maintain that the Blackberry browser is the worst I've ever used. I had a Sony featurephone with a better browser.
Here is the first Samsung Tab review I've seen, over at TechRadar (horrible multipage review, but the content was decent).
Their main complaints seem to be the user interface speed at times wen web browsing, the device gets noticeably warm, and battery life was poor. They were mixed on the size, putting it as good in the summary due to the mobility, but bad in another part of the article due to the cramped keyboard.
One point they made in this review is the Samsung Tab may damage perceptions for future Android tablets due to shipping with 2.2 today, an Android release Google continues to indicate wasn't built for tablets. I wonder how quickly Samsung will get it updated to 3.0.
Hmm, starting to see a ton of reviews, I'm guessing an embargo recently ended.
The Engadget review seemed a bit more positive. They didn't see the slowdowns TechRadar talked about, though they too noted the browsing experience wasn't quite as smooth as the iPad. Battery life also seemed better for them, hitting into the 6 hour range, instead of the 4 something TechRadar reported.
andy carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
They do say in the review that they see no slow downs. But then when you look at the review you can clearly see that scrolling when browsing is pretty crappy.
Looking at their video the scrolling has none of the immediacy of iPhone/iPad scrolling, it doesn't start scrolling until you've moved your finger a fair bit. Is this a general Android issue or is the Tab just struggling with throwing around those extra pixels ? Or is it due to Flash being enabled ?
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Yeah, that was pretty bad. No, the Android browser is not typically like that. Maybe when the device is already heavily loaded, which is uncommon (generally speaking, there's not that much running in the background) or while it's still loading a complex page, but that seemed to last longer than that. Having Flash turned on might explain it.
That said, there's an option to have Flash installed, but not run anything in the browser until you click on it, like Flashblock. Except that once you start Flash on that page, all Flash applets on that page start.
Dignan carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
It's entirely possible that, as before, Samsung has ruined their own product by messing with it down to the browser level. I'd love to see someone put Cyanogen on there or something and see if they have the same browser problems. Or even one of the alternative browsers like Dolphin.
Honestly, 7" is too big to make the product easily portable - just use an iPhone or similar device. And it's too small for a tablet experience, just use an iPad or some future Android 3.x product.
Even if the user experience was top notch, it'd still be something akin to the Newton MP2000-series. Awkward.
News from RIM about their tablet today as well - $500. I'm sure the two people that buy it are going to love it. It can handily beat Samsung in the number of devices that will need to be pulled from shelves and put into landfill if RIM produce enough stock.
Everyone has embraced the iPad, and while I don't think it's too late for someone to come out with, and make money with, other tablet devices, I'm quite confident they will be to the iPad as the generic MP3 player is to the iPod.
How long do you think we'll have to wait to see this on an Android tablet?
andy carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
I went to Bluewater (one of the UK's biggest shopping malls) the other night so I also decided to take a look at the Galaxy Tab. A few of the phone shops had adverts in the windows at £499 and at least one of them had one set up for demo.
The insides of phone shops fill me with nearly as much dread as trendy clothes shops, so I went to Currys (think Best Buy on a smaller scale) to see if they had one.
They did, one single unit on display. I had quick play with it.
It seems a nice enough device, the UI is responsive enough. However that is about all I can say, because it didn't have a wifi connection setup and didn't have a SIM card in it.
Which of course makes testing it out in any meaningful way completely impossible.
It mostly looks/feels like a big phone, in a way that the iPad doesn't. The lightness of it was welcome though, the iPad could do with losing a little weight.
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Dignan carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: andy
...it didn't have a wifi connection setup and didn't have a SIM card in it.
Which of course makes testing it out in any meaningful way completely impossible.
Ugh, I hate when they do that! These devices are all about connectivity, so why do these stores block the most important aspect of the device? I'll give it to my local Best Buy, when I tried the iPad out there, I believe that all 6 display models were active 3G units, and I was able to surf the web. That was very important to my trial experience.
The Best Buy here in town has free WiFi so you can test any capable device in store and use your own devices as well. It was nice not having to use 3G airtime on the iPhone the other day when checking something out online.
There's "news" (rumor) that Samsing has shipped 1 million Tabs to date. Smasing hasn't made an official announcement yet and I suspect I know why. Because it's bullshit. I don't care how many carriers are selling that turd, there's no way in hell Samsung has pushed 1 million units into the hands of consumers. I doubt very (VERY!) much they'd have even shipped 1 million units into the channel. If they had, that would probably leave some 900,000 still sitting on shelves.
If the new leaked? Android images are any indication of what the next OS version have in store, I wont' hold my breath for any serious competition for the one true tablet. Google's going to be splintering mind share a bit more in a few days with the announcement of Chrome OS as well. Who knows how that's going to turn out, but it looks like a dog right now. I suppose manufacturers can put out and sell millions of $200 netbooks that will eventually completely devastate their bottom lines. You have to have rocks in your head to keep pushing the floor on these products. Here's a clue. When you're not making money, volume doesn't help, it just makes things worse.
Dignan carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Dude, why are you so vitriolic about this stuff? Just relax for a second, ok?
You do understand that "shipped" is completely different from "sold," right? You seem to be saying they're the same thing. I can easily see Samsung shipping 1 million units to stores, and that doesn't mean they've sold anywhere close to that many. Remember that while Apple was initially selling them in their small number of stores and online, Samsung is starting off selling in the stores of three major wireless carriers as well as Best Buy.
That said, I wouldn't be surprised if they're able to sell that many in the next few months. The features it'll have in the future is irrelevant, by the way. I've heard plenty of good things about the Tab, and that review you linked really wasn't very good. A lot of people had a lot of gut reactions to the device, and I think many of them didn't just chill for a second and review it for what it was, and not compare it to the iPad.
From what I'm hearing, there is one definite advantage that the Tab has over the iPad: Android apps simply scale better. That's not to say that there shouldn't be tablet apps. There definitely should, and the Tab (and all Android tablets) will be behind the iPad in that regard for years, frankly. But they're at least starting out half-way because the phone apps don't like like total crap on the tablets. (sorry, but iPhone apps look like garbage on the iPad ).
Anyway, I don't really care for the Tab. I tried it out in the store and it's nice and all, but it's ridiculously priced (at a level so clearly created by the wireless carriers), and I simply won't be locked into a contract.
Instead, I'm looking at getting an Archos tablet. No, they won't be in the same league as the iPad (or even the Tab), but they also top out at $350. They don't ship with support for the Market app, but it's a trivial fix to put it on there. For a device that I'm only using for reading comics and Google Reader (which just had an official app released! yay!), it'll be great.
Archos products have a place and they have been there for a long time and practically pioneered that space while everyone else ignored it. I'm happy to see them still around.
The rumor about Samsung is "sold" - what I'm saying is that I doubt very much that it's even "shipped" - the product at $200 less than what it is nor still wouldn't make for a decent poor man's iPad, but it's the same price. If an official statement came out tomorrow saying they'd sold 10 units since launch, frankly I'd be less surprised than if they said they'd sold half a million.
I need something to rag on. I'm having an otherwise great time with so many other things that I need to have at least one punching bag going at all times. I was kind of tired of slamming Apple and Boxee. Apple will always be Apple, always coming out with a lot of good stuff with these inexplicable flaws. And at least Boxee is being honest about where they are and how people have reacted to their product.
Samsung on the other hand... I'm really sick of their sub-par Galaxy product line. Look Samsung, any two-bit OEM could put that product together. They've been making the industry's worst mobile products for some 10 years or longer, they've finally gotten into the makeup game - but no matter how much makeup you put on that pig, it's still a pig.
BTW, think the best Android product out right now is the Barnes and Noble Nook Color. Android doesn't have to be crap.
As far as tablets go, I think the iPad is going to continue to define that category for at least another few years. It doesn't have to, but the writing is on the wall by just sampling the portable computer and mobile phone market over the past 3 to 5 years. I'm actually very curious what they're going to change/add - it should be a greater evolutionary jump than the bump from the original iPhone to iPhone 3G, IMO.
Keep it to yourself or take it somewhere else. You've lost all semblance of anyone giving a shit about anything you have to say about any product where Apple has a presence.
Are any of my points not valid? Any of them not grounded? Any of them unfounded? Sure, I may spice up the analysis a little and sometimes add a little hyperbole, but I'm still batting much better than most analysts in this respect, so while I respect you may not agree in many cases, I do have a point and the content is relevant. You could just not read the posts in threads that are likely to bother you. Those where Apple may have a market presence as you say. I'd never ask you to go (read) elsewhere though. This place wouldn't be the same without you.
I was "joking" about the rag part. Humor doesn't seem to go as far in here as it used to though. Too many people seem to be on pins and needles lately. Must be the terror alert status.
NP. BTW, I utilize very little filter when I write here - the same as if I would be talking or emailing with any other close friends. So you're getting the raw feed, so to speak, which is unlike what you might see in other forums (from me) or anyone else.
To me, this is like an online version of the local barber shop for gossip and trash talking tech.
Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
fwiw, I can believe they've shipped that many without much convincing - demo models appear to be *everywhere* in the US, plus there are plenty of whole countries that don't officially have the iPad yet.
Registered: 17/03/2010
Posts: 32
Loc: Portsmouth, UK
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
sub-par Galaxy product line.
I have had a Samsung Galaxy Portal i5700 phone running Android 1.5 for 9 months now and I am very happy with it. I am no expert but it does everything it was advertised to do, quick enough and with (to date) no bugs. Great value too at £50 for the phone + £15 a month contract including 300 mins, and unlimited data and texts.
You do understand that "shipped" is completely different from "sold," right? You seem to be saying they're the same thing. I can easily see Samsung shipping 1 million units to stores, and that doesn't mean they've sold anywhere close to that many.
Looks like a Samsung exec came clean and did confirm the now 2 million number was purely shipped to vendors, while end user sales are "quite small".
This may lead to some pretty good discounts soon for a Galaxy Tab, especially with news coming out about Honeycomb now. I'm surprised Samsung doesn't maintain a smaller channel inventory with their general consumer electronics experience.
The Wall Street Journal reports, those two million Galaxy Tabs that Samsung reported it had "sold" in the fourth quarter of last year were apparently not actual sales to consumers, but simply sales to distributors ... Samsung's Lee Young-hee further explained on an earnings call on Friday that so-called "sell-out" sales to customers were actually "quite small," but she wouldn't provide a specific number.
I'd be surprised if it's even close to 1 million sold to consumers yet. They're going to get stuck with a lot of these in the channel once models from other manufacturers start to ship in volume. CES was a tablet blowout with at least 100 models announced, shown or otherwise demonstrated. But, right now everyone is waiting on the iPad 2 announcement from Apple - the only tablet anyone really cares about and unsurprisingly, the only one that's going to do any lucrative business this year.
That said, you'd think that with the much lower software development costs for other manufacturers, they'd be able to turn out at least a decent profit while beating the iPad's price. So far the only way they've shown lower prices has been through carrier subsidies. Things don't look good for Samsung's current generation of Tab. Have they announced an Android 3 plan for it?
andy carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
The Tab is also under threat by the next version of the Tab, which Samsung have already started muttering about appearing very soon. That isn't likely to help sales.
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The most amusing thing to me is, that despite the iPad's dominance, all these companies will make more money with that competition rather than without it. The current tablet category simply wouldn't exist without Apple. The iPad has created the mindshare which has lead to opening the market for alternatives and it's created the business case for others to develop their own OSes (Google, HP, RIM).
It's a chance for a lot of manufacturers to move on form the crappy netbook mire they've been stuck in for the past two or three years.
EDIT. Except RIM. I expect that their tablet is going to carve some deep loses into their balance sheet. IMO, they should really cut their loses right now and abandon the proprietary tablet and instead focus on how to better leverage iOS and Android devices to their advantage. HP's chances with WebOS on a tablet are marginal, RIM's with the Playbook? Non-existant. If they sell ten thousand units by the end of 2011 I'll be flabbergasted.
Apparently Samsung has back-tracked and says the VP actually said "quite smooth" and not "quite small." Seems to be semantics to me, as the important part is that the 2 million unit count is only a production count and not a sell-through count. And by not releasing a real number during an earnings call, they're speaking volumes about the lack of volume.
Here's some fun with numbers... You read it here first.
Samsung just announced that the return rate on the tab is actually "under 2%" and not 16% as has been widely reported.
Here's an interesting thought however.... What if BOTH Samsung and the research firms are correct?
What if Samsung's number is based on their distribution shipments of "2 million" units and the report numbers are based actual sales (what stores would report).
Let's assume the "under 2%" is 1.8% to give them some wiggle room.
That means 36000 returns on 2 million units. For which 36000 is 16% of 225000 units. (100/16= 6.25 x 36k = 225k)
That may mean that only 225k units have actually been sold to customers. Of which 36k have been returned.
250k if you use exactly 2% in above calculation. In either case, it sounds like a runaway success to me.
Dignan carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
I'm not saying that they sold a ton of these things, or anywhere close to 2m, but doesn't it seem odd that they would keep manufacturing so many of them if they were only selling one out of every eight they made? I don't doubt your math, Bruno, but it seems strange to me...
Also, I do see a distinction between "quite slow" and "quite smooth." The latter sounds like a positive statement to me, although it's a weird phrase that I've never heard before in this context, but there might be a language barrier there. What I find strange is that apparently people have listened again to the statement and said that it's pretty clear he said "smooth." Why, in that case, did the press jump on this statement and run with "slow?" That seems like pretty irresponsible reporting to me.
The person doing the transcription of the earnings call made the mistake of typing out "small" instead of "smooth". A Wall Street Journal blogger read the transcript (instead of listening to the live call), then published a story. From there, it just snowballed in the echo chamber of the internet. Even though the WSJ made a correction hours later, there were probably hundreds of other places that still had the "small" part.
I'm not saying that my mathematical hypothesis is true, I just thought, void of any concrete numbers either way, it would be interesting.
Samsung may have had 2 or 3 million forecast based on input from distributors and carriers, who took those units but have so far been unable to move them as planned. It wouldn't be the first time where the vast majority of a certain product has been left sitting on shelves and warehouses.
Can anyone remember the E.T. game for the ATARI 2600?
andy carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
I still have't managed to walk into a consumer electronics store and find a Tab that is actually connected to a network of any sort.
I suspect if I went into a mobile network operator's shop I'd find the Tab display model connected to a network, but I have no desire to venture into one of those hell holes
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Motorola's Xoom supposedly comes out February 24 for $799 for a 32GB model. That's about $70 more than an equivalent iPad. For $30 more you can buy a 64GB iPad with 3G. Or drop the cell connection and get it for $100 less ($200 less for 32GB).
Not to mention a new iPad will probably be announced in the next 30-60 days.
Not content with copying Apple's product, they've also copied their iconic 1984 commercial - but with literally no impact. Never mind that the Mac, at the time, was unique and revolutionary, not simply one of 101 nearly identical devices, all of which are mere imitators. I also think a lot of people will see the commercial and simply think the device is an iPad.
I also think a lot of people will see the commercial and simply think the device is an iPad.
I am most definitely not an Apple fanboy, and when it comes to Apple products, Bruno and I rarely see eye to eye. But this time Bruno is right. I watched the commercial and as far as I can tell it will sell more iPads than Xooms.
tanstaafl.
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Dignan carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Yeah, they definitely failed to get the message across. I don't share Bruno's vitriol against anything not-Apple, but it's clear that the Xoom is going to have problems.
That's a shame, too, because it looks like really great hardware and just the product for me. Unfortunately it's just way overpriced
I assume you're looking at the Best Buy ad story, Bruno? Did you also notice this? "To activate wifi on this device, a minimum of 1 month data subscription is required." Seriously? You'll allow me to use WiFi only if I buy a month of your wireless data plan?
Also, they're charging $20 for 1GB of data per month. I wonder how much you'll have to pay for 4G when that comes out (they're going to upgrade Xoom owners to 4G at some point, at least that was what they were saying at one point).
Dignan carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
By the way, have you guys seen the pricing for Motorola's other hot new product, the Atrix 4G? I think it's a cool device with an intriguing idea, but the latest word is that the phone will be $200 (no surprise there, all phones start there), and that the laptop dock can be purchased in a bundle with the phone for $500 total. If you buy the dock later it's $500 on its own.
If you're unfamiliar with this phone, the cool idea is that you slip it into this laptop dock and get a web browser-like OS. The phone provides all the guts and the dock is essentially a keyboard, screen, and battery.
Yes, a keyboard, screen, and battery that costs $500 (or, yes, $300). At that point, why not just buy a netbook?
Want to know the kicker? If you buy the laptop dock, you're required to sign up for a hotspot plan. Insanity! You're popping a cell phone that already has a data plan into a completely dumb dock. First, this means that while the phone is docked you're just using the regular old cellular data connection directly. Second, the only reason to buy the dock in the first place (and spend an absurd amount of money) is to eliminate the need to carry around a laptop and connect it to your phone with a hotspot.
I find it amazing that even though we have far more competition in the cellular arena than local broadband, the companies seem worse!
Motorola had a good run there. Android saved them from the brink and yet they're still determined to jump off the cliff.
Matt, it's not anything non-Apple, it's anything that takes a shot at Apple yet does absolutely nothing new, instead trying only to ride Apple's coat tails on every level.
Motorla are going to get their asses handed to them this year. I believe that $500 dock is more than just a battery, keyboard and screen. I was under the impression it contained an additional processor, though I may have skimmed an article too quickly and be completely off base about that.
Most of these manufacturers are content to continue with business practices that have simply not been showing them record growth over the past few years. WHile they copy Apple on many levels they simply fail to see the most important lesson, which is that they need to change the way they do business. If they copied Apple on this front, they could probably be successful with any number of products instead of Apple iOS clones.
Dignan carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
Motorla are going to get their asses handed to them this year. I believe that $500 dock is more than just a battery, keyboard and screen. I was under the impression it contained an additional processor, though I may have skimmed an article too quickly and be completely off base about that.
I'm pretty certain it isn't, but I'll have to do a little research.
Even if it did have additional processing power in there, it would still be a horribly overpriced item.
For a moment, I was actually considering the Atrix and its accessories, as I love the idea of it. But that was at the point where I thought the dock might be $200 or something. This kind of crap isn't worth going back to AT&T.
I'm hoping that the G-Slate won't be as absurdly overpriced, but now I'm so discouraged that I don't have high hopes for that.
Yes, way over-priced at $500. When I first heard about the Atrix I thought it wouldn't need a sold-separately accessory at all. I thought its regular charging/docking station let you do all that faux computer crap.
Anyway, it's Motorola. They only make crap consumer devices so even if it shot double rainbows out of a special port I'd stay as far away from it as possible.
Hmmm... I just remembered something. Weren't you saying you didn't need/want a tablet at all last year?
Hmmm... I just remembered something. Weren't you saying you didn't need/want a tablet at all last year?
While I wasn't 100% against them this time last year, I was still highly skeptical. It wasn't until I tried owning one (by buying one to give as a gift after using it) that I really realized how useful they would be. In another month or so, I'll probably write a new review of my experience with the iPad, as my usage has shifted a bit over time. I think I'm actually using it more now then even 11 months ago when I was first exploring.
I'll be interested in some coworkers thoughts today, as some of them were really hyped about the Xoom. I don't think they were expecting the cost to be that high, as one in particular always assumes Apple overcharges for their products, including the iPad. Now we also have Samsung and Motorola in the field, and neither have been able to undercut the price by any meaningful amount. There are aspect of the Xoom that interest me, but I have my concerns about what it lacks too. I'll post more later, since it ties into how I've used my iPad over the past 11 months.
No one has the supply chain management prowess of Apple and no one else does the volumes nor has the capital to assure steep discounts on parts like Apple. They knew when the released the iPad that no one else was gong to touch the price and features.
Dignan carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
Hmmm... I just remembered something. Weren't you saying you didn't need/want a tablet at all last year?
I did at first. But I, unlike you, was able to change my mind
My initial reaction to the iPad was based on how over-hyped it was. There was a ton of talk about how great it was as a content creation device, and I really don't think that's panned out. I had no interest in that and couldn't see why I'd want one.
Later, I decided that a tablet would be a great way to read my comics. That's pretty much the entire reason I want one. I don't think it's a device that will change my life or anything, it'll just be a nice way to read with my wife.
I did at first. But I, unlike you, was able to change my mind
I change my mind all the time. I was for example, about to buy a plane ticket and come out to visit you so I could crack you on the head for that comment, but I've since decided against it. I said the iPad wasn't for me and I still don't know how much use I'd get out of it as a general computing device. I did say that I could think of numerous vertical applications, but I didn't have that kind of money to throw at solving any one problem.
But now I'm considering getting an iPad 2 shortly after they come out, primarily so my daughter (who will be 2 this summer) can start using a computer.
Quote:
My initial reaction to the iPad was based on how over-hyped it was. There was a ton of talk about how great it was as a content creation device, and I really don't think that's panned out.
Actually, I think it's been the opposite. It was billed by everyone as being only for content consumption - and continues to get the same comments from many in the press and analysts. However, it turns out that it's being used all the time by a lot of folks for content creation. Interesting stories abound.
There are a lot of great kid-oriented learning apps and games, so I think it's the best way to expose my daughter to computing at an early age. I can't really risk my primary notebook to that end, nor is it as portable (17" model). I have no doubt that I'll use it for some web surfing on the couch as well instead of the notebook, but it's mainly because of the kid.
Dignan carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
Originally Posted By: Dignan
I did at first. But I, unlike you, was able to change my mind
I change my mind all the time. I was for example, about to buy a plane ticket and come out to visit you so I could crack you on the head for that comment, but I've since decided against it.
Yeah, that was snippy, sorry about that
I think you're forgetting much of that initial announcement where Jobs touted all the great ways you could create using the iPad. I think 95% of people today only use it to consume.
I think at least 95% of people use regular computers to just consume.
I'm not sure that comparison is good. In my experience all those who use a PC in its most basic way, will use it to print a word document, for example. Most basic users I know really conceive a PC as an advanced typewriter. I don't think the same happens with a Pad of sorts (which does not mean it is not capable of doing such basic tasks).
I am considering getting some Pad for my parents, both quite computer-phobic :), just to allow them to at least check their email more often than once a month. I am quite confident that the more basic and immediate GUI, and its portability, would make such basic tasks so much easier for them. But, I am personally still not interested in a Pad. I'd be if they costed 1/5th of what they cost now, or if they were 5 times more powerful.
There's probably an age factor, there. I had my parents in mind (and a very large number of similar user type), and they all want to print documents, often to store them in paper rather than electronically.
Again in my experience, no stats or solid data to support anythink here, younger basic users will indeed print less, but still use their laptops to create documents of sorts, collect thousands of pics, di basic editing to them, create presentations, etc. So, even there, compared to PCs (laptops), Pads are still presenting some signficant limits in terms of software available, cpu power, storage space, and users seem to me to behave accordingly.
Yet, I may be biased, as I am mostly (only?) familiar with basic users in academic environment.
Also, I think that as Pads get more powerful and increase their storage capacity, things will change to some degree.
I am considering getting some Pad for my parents, both quite computer-phobic :), just to allow them to at least check their email more often than once a month. I am quite confident that the more basic and immediate GUI, and its portability, would make such basic tasks so much easier for them.
If you do go this route, I have some advice based on trying this with my grandmother:
1. Print out some sort of help. I tried giving her a DVD with all the videos off Apple.com, and I'm pretty certain she has never looked at it.
2. Make sure the help includes information about what icons do. With iOS at least, there are lots of buttons that simply have icons, with no text. Even though my grandmother has been using a Mac for a while, it seems she never made the association with the icons above the text and their actions. Even basic play/pause/fast forward icons were pretty new to her.
3. Try to buy the same device for yourself. Since there are no remote assistance options with tablets running iOS, Android, QNX, or WebOS, remote troubleshooting gets a little harder.
Since they have little computer experience now, the transition might be easier. I found with my grandmother, she was still trying to apply too many Mac usage patterns to the iPad. For example, she gets frustrated when she opens Safari and the same page she was last on comes right back. On her Mac, she has been in the habit of quitting programs when she is done, and expecting a clean slate when she returns. Nearly a year later, my grandmother is still using the laptop far more often then the iPad. Next time I visit in person, I'm going to attempt to help her transition more over, with a printed guide in hand.
Umm, most people do nothing but use Facebook on their personal computers. Seriously.
If the most accessed site stats are anything to go by on the work proxy then last time I generated a report it was Facebook and personal email both top, auction sites like eBay, news and then everything else. I expect the Facebook and email percentages to vary based on the age range of the people however.
They would not have a problem to understand the GUI paradigm of a Pad, I think. It's that they're totally unattracted by a PC and they only use it if the HAVE to get in touch with somebody via email, or check some website.
Probably, a Pad would be more accessible, and add a fun factor due to the simpler and more immediate gui. And probably, it would make them check their email more often, which would be already great.
But, I am still uncertain whether that would instead be wasted money...
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: taym
And probably, it would make them check their email more often
The other day, I saw a news article about a start-up company that's a collecting point for a person/company's snail-mail. They open it, scan it, send it on in e-format, and archive/shred/forward the original as necessary.
This makes me think maybe someone should do the opposite... have a company that takes an email, prints it on a postcard, and sends it via snail mail. Extra fees apply if you'd like it hand-written, or in an envelope for more privacy.
Of course, I can't think there'd be too many clients after the current crop of computer-phobic (or just dis-interested) old folks die off.
Dignan carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: tman
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
Umm, most people do nothing but use Facebook on their personal computers. Seriously.
If the most accessed site stats are anything to go by on the work proxy then last time I generated a report it was Facebook and personal email both top, auction sites like eBay, news and then everything else. I expect the Facebook and email percentages to vary based on the age range of the people however.
Not to nit-pick, but you're talking about the amount of time spent on these sites of all the time spent on the internet, not out of total time spent on the computer. If you could tell that, I'd say you've over-reached your boundaries as a sysadmin
Dignan carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
From the HP thread:
Quote:
Best Buy has pricing for Xoom tablet pre-orders on their site. $1200 for the 32GB model.
That HAS to be a mistake. There's no question it's a mistake at some level, whether it's a typo or just the dumbest pricing I've seen in years.
Look, technically the Xoom is a little better than the iPad, at least on specs. But they can't possibly thing it's $470 better! I have to think that's going to change. They will sell a couple hundred devices at that price.
I still don't think that Motorola realizes that they don't have a choice when it comes to pricing. The iPad is in such a dominant position that they've set the market price and anything higher is going to have to be significantly better to justify it. And the Xoom might have better internals, but it's also coming out almost a year after the iPad so we would expect it to, and the iPad 2 might beat it just a month or two later.
I really hate you right now, Motorola.
I eagerly await the pricing on the G-Slate. T-Mobile is actually pricing their tablets pretty well, even if they're still no match for the iPad and they're only contract prices...
That last post was in response to the Xoom item I mentioned in the HP Web OS Event thread:
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
Best Buy has pricing for Xoom tablet pre-orders on their site. $1200 for the 32GB model.
On the one hand it seems ridiculous and screams of mistake. On the other, it's up publicly and hasn't received a correction. It will probably turn out to be the previously reported $800.
For HP's sake, they'd better have competitive pricing on their goods.
Everyone is also screaming about the apparent WiFi lock-out on the Xoom, but I think that's likely a misrepresented Verizon spec. At first glance it seems that you don't get WiFi ability on the product unless you subscribe to a Verizon 3G contract. What I think they mean is that by subscribing to 3G you get access to Verizon WiFi hot-spots, not that it's required to enable the WiFi hardware.
Originally Posted By: Dignan
and the iPad 2 might beat it just a month or two later
There are already iPad 3 rumors - for September launch.
Who on earth is going to pay that much for a Xoom tablet? Depending on the model, you could get 2 iPads for the price of a single Xoom. Even the $800 price point is kind of high...
Dignan carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
There are already iPad 3 rumors - for September launch.
I heard about that, but what wasn't clear was what would happen in the meantime. It seems odd to me that they'd announce something in March, release it in April or something, then release the next version in September. If they didn't do that and just released it in September, why call it #3?
I understand the move to September, and the iPod event isn't going to be as sexy in the future as it once was, and it makes more sense to position for the holidays, but I just don't know what they'd do in the meantime.
Besides, my point is still the same. Just because the Xoom has better internals than the iPad 1 doesn't mean they can charge almost twice as much (or even the same) as a product that came out a year ago, especially when that product dominates the market at one price.
I was really hoping for the Android tablets to come out and be at least $50 cheaper than the iPad. At the very least I just don't see how they can charge more.
I wonder if Motorola is just so used to the "real price" of cell phones (off contract) that they're pricing it at sort of an off-contract level and not even looking at the competition. If an $800 cell phone sells for $200 on contract, I could see a $1200 tablet sell for something like $500-600 on a contract. Perhaps they might come out with a two-year contract...
*edit* Engadget is reporting that the listing is down and that the price was supposedly a place-holder. That happens often with these unreleased products. For instance, Bruno scoffed at me when I said those early reports of the AU$999 Galaxy Tab were probably off like many devices are before official release. I'm hoping the same applies to all the price rumors on the Xoom.
Regardless, I have low, low expectations for the Xoom. Motorola have not handled this well at all. It baffles me that, regardless of how [in-]effective their Superbowl ad was, they still don't have an official release date or price announced. How could they possibly do that?
This shows how dumb an idea that ad was. Particularly with how poor the message was. Everyone who understood the add already knew about the Xoom. Anyone who didn't know about it already, even if they understood the ad, has already forgotten about the product because Motorola didn't even have their friggin' official Xoom site up at the time the ad ran! How f***ing stupid do you have to be to not put up a website for the product you just spent $3 million advertising!
Sorry, I'm getting on a rant here I'm getting pissed off because we're talking about a product I'm actively looking to purchase, but these companies keep screwing it up in at least one major way...
Motorola might as well pack up and go home. I don't give their mobile division even a 5 year lease on life. They're going to get clobbered and the more money they spend developing tablets, the faster they'll dig their own grave.
Even with a free OS these companies have no room to move on Apple's pricing. And it's not because they're trying to take a huge slice of profit either. They just don't have even close to the supply chain management prowess as Apple. They don't have the buying power and frankly, they just don't have the demand. And there's nothing they can do, no amount of commercials, no amount of features that is going to get them on top.
There's still plenty of market to be had and plenty of money to be made. And while the android OS may be more prevalent than iOS, I don't think any single manufacturer is going to catch Apple for a long long time.
Dignan carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: wfaulk
Can we just change "Off Topic" to "Market Research" and be done with it?
Yeah, it's a little out of control, isn't it? Sometimes it's fun, though. And in this case, I had to jump in and rant about Motorola and how dumb they've been.
To bring the whole thread back around and take a different, surprising spin, it actually looks like Samsung's 10" tablet is promising! It's plastic, but apparently feels good in the hand, and is noticeably lighter (than the Xoom and iPad) because of it (it's 1.23lbs).
But, most importantly, it has something beautiful on the back: "With GOOGLE" Hallelujah!
it actually looks like Samsung's 10" tablet is promising! It's plastic, but apparently feels good in the hand, and is noticeably lighter (than the Xoom and iPad) because of it (it's 1.23lbs).
But, most importantly, it has something beautiful on the back: "With GOOGLE" Hallelujah!
I wonder how long that will last. It seems this is a move about "oh crap, we need a Honeycomb tablet out soon, to compete with Motorola, LG and whoever is also pushing out tablets. We don't have time to muck it up, yet." Some article I read this morning was already talking about Samsung's next modifications to the Android experience, and I'm sure in time it will creep into Honeycomb too. After my Captivate experience, and watching Samsung still want to push forward with their crap, I can't find any ability to trust them. I could easily see them pushing out a post 3.0 update with their stuff, or delaying 3.1 long enough to add their modifications in.
A lot of this reminds me of the Microsoft and OEM market. The best time to buy a crap free PC is right when Microsoft releases an OS, as the OEM has had less time to roll their own stuff in. Some will be there due to the release candidates that OEMs have access to, but it gets worse the older the OS is.
I wonder if Google is going to do a Nexus tablet of some sort, or if the Xoom and others are intended to be it for this first round. The Nexus S came out well after the Galaxy S it was derived from, so it's hard to say.
it actually looks like Samsung's 10" tablet is promising! It's plastic, but apparently feels good in the hand, and is noticeably lighter (than the Xoom and iPad) because of it (it's 1.23lbs).
But, most importantly, it has something beautiful on the back: "With GOOGLE" Hallelujah!
I wonder how long that will last. It seems this is a move about "oh crap, we need a Honeycomb tablet out soon, to compete with Motorola, LG and whoever is also pushing out tablets. We don't have time to muck it up, yet." Some article I read this morning was already talking about Samsung's next modifications to the Android experience, and I'm sure in time it will creep into Honeycomb too. After my Captivate experience, and watching Samsung still want to push forward with their crap, I can't find any ability to trust them. I could easily see them pushing out a post 3.0 update with their stuff, or delaying 3.1 long enough to add their modifications in.
I thought the "with Google" branding meant that it had to be the stock Android experience?
I thought the "with Google" branding meant that it had to be the stock Android experience?
I thought so too, but the HTC Hero had a "with Google" mark on the back, and shipped with HTC Sense. Things may have changed since then though.
Eww. Okay. Dignan had better be careful then! I guess that goes for me as well because I thought the Google branding meant the stock Android experience!
Dignan carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: tman
Originally Posted By: drakino
Originally Posted By: tman
I thought the "with Google" branding meant that it had to be the stock Android experience?
I thought so too, but the HTC Hero had a "with Google" mark on the back, and shipped with HTC Sense. Things may have changed since then though.
Eww. Okay. Dignan had better be careful then! I guess that goes for me as well because I thought the Google branding meant the stock Android experience!
Yikes! It's supposed to mean that, but I don't know how they got away with mucking it up! It's possible that at the time, Sense didn't replace or mess with the proprietary Google apps, so they got away with just putting their own launcher and widgets on there. That was a pretty long time ago, after all. But the whole "with Google" does seem to be a bit murky...
Also, that's the only instance I've heard of it happening. Unfortunately there haven't been many stock Android devices, so we don't have many examples: G1, Droid, Droid 2 (I think), Nexus One, Nexus S. None of these have had the bait and switch.
I suspect that most of these tablet manufacturers are just racing to get their products out the door, so they'll go this round without their "amazing" additions to the OS, which is a big overhaul of Android already, and maybe put their own spin on the next rev.
The irony is that there actually seems to be less variation in the tablets these guys are producing than their phones. I never understood their approach with the phones because they all seemed different enough to me, but they felt the need to differentiate with these horrible interfaces.
Then things start to go wrong. It’s very clear that a $500 tablet is impossible for anyone but Apple to build without cutting corners. The Tab not only has a plastic back, but the metal-looking bezel is in fact silvered plastic, and looks as tacky as the dime-store toy-tablets that will surely flood stores soon. This does make the Tab 10.1 light (600g vs. 730g for the 3G iPad), but it also makes it feel cheap. And while overall the Tab 10.1 is thinner than the iPad (10.9mm vs. 13.4mm), the iPad feels thinner thanks to its tapered edges.
Quote:
the 8MP camera itself is junk, and takes photos almost as bad as those taken by my piece-of-crap Samsung Beyoncé cellphone
Quote:
Honeycomb feels like Linux on the desktop before Ubuntu came along, and the Tab 10.1 itself feels like somebody made a toy plastic iPad.
Dignan carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: Tim
People are really comparing 2.5mm in thickness?
Absolutely! Think about it: if you have a slate form factor, which dimension can you take 2.5mm off and lose the most volume? It's a noticeable difference in thickness.
Bruno, thanks for the link. As usual, I never expect anyone to come out with a device that's the build quality of Apple's equivalent product. That's why I'm hoping that some of these might come out for cheaper:
Quote:
It’s very clear that a $500 tablet is impossible for anyone but Apple to build without cutting corners.
The only problem with that statement is that we don't know what the price will be. For all we know, one of them might be a little cheaper! Just because Motorola is being so freaking stupid, some other companies might actually want to compete.
Given that 10" netbooks retail for under $200, it shouldn't be that unexpected for a 10" netpad to appear on the market for under $500. Sure the touch layer for the screen adds cost, but probably no more than is saved by turfing the keyboard.
These things should really be closer to $200 than $500.
The costs associated with tablets also include the intangibles, like research and development budgets for both the device and many of the new specialized components. Netbooks were just a result of the race to the bottom in the notebook space, so not much R&D had to be spent to figure out how to make the cheapest (both in price and quality) systems. Tablets also are in the new patent minefield, so likely licensing costs are being passed on to the consumer currently.
As far as the horrible working conditions, it's definitely a shame to see, and is a result of the overall race to the bottom in the industry. Computing devices seem to be that rare exception where people expect newer more powerful devices for cheaper over time. Corners have to be cut somewhere if people expect tablets to be $200, a price point that modern smartphones also sit well above when you ignore the subsidy.
Though, given that pretty much every product from every vendor comes from china, what would you prefer? A company that is actively seeking out bad practices and working to remedy them, or ones that don't audit and have no idea what may or may not be going on in their factories?
I've been to many factories in china, and believe me, the ones used by my current employer are a damn sight nicer than the second and third tier ones used by Rio and a lot of other companies (though I've never been to anything that could even slightly be described as a "sweatshop" as it's rather hard to make complex electronic goods in a shed)
Personally, I'd rather see American companies invest in American infrastructure rather than engage companies in other countries with questionable labor practices and with parasitic monetary policies.
But it's hard to blame any company for doing so. Companies are amoral. Our government should be doing something about it.
But it's worth pointing out that if Apple (or any other company; I'm sure Apple's likely at the top of the heap, especially since we don't hear these statistics from anyone else) employed American factory workers, 68% of whom were required to work 61-hour, 7-day workweeks, they would be sued into oblivion. As it is, it's just another statistic.
tonyc carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Obviously, the companies that conduct due diligence to investigate these abuses and right the wrongs that take place deserve some credit. But with labor standards in China being what they are, things like this will continue to happen, and when one country cracks down, the factories will just move somewhere else with laxer labor regulation.
Of course, I would have given Apple a bit more credit if they'd come out with this sort of information before the Foxconn incidents, or if they were more open about what other foreign companies are doing their manufacturing. In the end, I reckon they're no better or worse than other electronics makers, but more transparency would go a long way to improve their image on these matters.
Though, given that pretty much every product from every vendor comes from china, what would you prefer?
I have no suggestion nor do I think there will ever be a solution, patches yes, solution no. As long as there is poverty stricken part of the world the more wealthy populous will take advantage of them by supplying the consumer with cheap products and companies cheap labor.
Very few people care, or want to know, how their $200 notebook got manufactured they are just happy it’s not $400. The companies also don’t give a rat’s ass as long as they are making a profit. Then people in the USA wonder why they got laid off from the local factory while they are browsing the web on their cheap computer. I’m no exception to any of this.
I guess a poison sweat shop is better than being sold as a sex slave.
...the more wealthy populous will take advantage of them...
Did anyone think to ask those workers who were being so badly treated whether they thought they were "taken advantage of"? If the only alternative is to watch his children starve and his wife prostitute herself, perhaps that 61-hour work week and income an order of magnitude greater than his neighbor might be seen in a different light.
I cannot imagine what it would be like to be in those circumstances (well, actually, I can imagine it) and I thank whatever gods may be that in my entire life, from age 20 to age 63, I was never unemployed for even a single day, and for only one six-month period did I have a job that I didn't enjoy. For the final 25 years of my working life I did not even take time off because I enjoyed my work more than I would have enjoyed vacationing.
But do you honestly think that these badly used (by our standards) workers would be better off if they had no work at all?
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
In the end, the company still employ's approximately "x" number of people -- laying off the children and replacing them with older teens gives the same level of employment, more or less.
Some people are then unemployed, and some people gain employment. Neutral outcome there, except fewer children are being exploited by this one company.
Doing nothing (head in the sand) doesn't lead to change, and without change there'll always be this issue.
Yes, they are taking advantage of the fact they can move their facility to a poorer country and hire poor people for less money. They could pay these people better wage, have safer working conditions and benefits. But they are taking advantage of the situation.
Everyone takes advantage of everyone else in a free market system however some take the advantage to an extreme.
Poisoning and child labor are a little too far for me. But we all have different standards.
Carphone Warehouse will be getting the Xoom exclusively in the UK. No indication on pricing yet. I hate Carphone Warehouse shops. The staff at the ones I've been to have always been way more obnoxious and pushy than at other phone shops. They've also annoyingly got the exclusive to the Nexus S here as well...
Registered: 24/07/2002
Posts: 618
Loc: South London
Originally Posted By: tman
Carphone Warehouse will be getting the Xoom exclusively in the UK. No indication on pricing yet. I hate Carphone Warehouse shops. The staff at the ones I've been to have always been way more obnoxious and pushy than at other phone shops. They've also annoyingly got the exclusive to the Nexus S here as well...
Wow, that seems exceedingly dumb given that other tablets are available everywhere and in particular supermarkets, why would you purposefully restrict your chances of sales?
I avoid the carphone whorehouse like the plague, infact I avoid all phone shops because I detest the fact that within 2 seconds of entering the store you get a 16 year old trying to sell you something.
andy carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: sn00p
Wow, that seems exceedingly dumb given that other tablets are available everywhere and in particular supermarkets, why would you purposefully restrict your chances of sales?
Because it is expensive and they want to make it appear cheaper by selling it with a data contract ?
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
Registered: 24/07/2002
Posts: 618
Loc: South London
Originally Posted By: andy
Because it is expensive and they want to make it appear cheaper by selling it with a data contract ?
My god, I've just googled the price, are they insane? You're going to have to sign up for a very long data contract in order to get a "lowish" price on it.
Dignan carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
There's finally an official price from Motorola: $799 for 3G, $600 for WiFi only. Both of those are clearly too high.
The thing I worry about in this space is that all the other Android tablet makers seem to be dragging their heels on releasing a price for their tablet. I worry that they're waiting for the other players to make their move and then try to slightly undercut them. If Samsung releases their tablet for $550 now I wouldn't be surprised and I'd be disappointed that they were still overpriced. These guys aren't going to match the build quality of the iPad, so they have no choice but to compete on price. People will hold both in their hands and recognize that one is more valuable than the other if they're the same price.
If any of these guys can release their tablet for $400, I think they have a shot at competing. Especially if it's a 3G/4G version for that price.
Dignan carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
Originally Posted By: Dignan
There's finally an official price from Motorola: $799 for 3G, $600 for WiFi only. Both of those are clearly too high.
Motorola says they can justify the higher prices because their devices are 4G. Ummmm...
They seriously said that? Do you have a link? I'd love to see it in their words, because that's really dumb.
That idea alone is pretty dumb, since you can be pretty sure that all the 4G phones coming out soon are going to go for the same $200 that all the others do. There's no way these phones will go for more than the starting iPhone price.
That's enough stupidity right there. But then you add on the stupidity that the Xoom won't even be 4G out of the gate. Apparently they're going to do trade-ins a few months later when the 4G models are out.
Yeah, it sounds like they have this all figured out!
If any of these guys can release their tablet for $400, I think they have a shot at competing.
Thats why people are interested in rooting the Nook Color. Reasonable hardware specs and has a capacitive touchscreen unlike the other cheap crap tablets out there.
There's finally an official price from Motorola: $799 for 3G, $600 for WiFi only. Both of those are clearly too high.
Motorola says they can justify the higher prices because their devices are 4G. Ummmm...
4G? That's LTE then? Wow, that'll do you a lot of good with virtually no providers already supporting that standard... And by the time they do, we'll be at least 2-3 generations of mobile phones further.
Take a note Motorola (and Samsung for that matter): if you're copying something from another company, the copy should at least be cheaper than the original, or else everybody will continue to buy the original. (if that's not an eye-opener, I don't know what is! )
Dignan carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: tman
Originally Posted By: Dignan
If any of these guys can release their tablet for $400, I think they have a shot at competing.
Thats why people are interested in rooting the Nook Color. Reasonable hardware specs and has a capacitive touchscreen unlike the other cheap crap tablets out there.
That's true, and it's been mighty tempting. Plus, for what I want I don't need too much speed.
But I've seen video of the Nook in action, and I think I just wouldn't be able to live with how slow it is. It's...fine. But I think the CPU is slower than my phone's.
Also, I think I'm done hacking a tablet to do what I want. The Archos was a terrible experience for me that way
4G? That's LTE then? Wow, that'll do you a lot of good with virtually no providers already supporting that standard... And by the time they do, we'll be at least 2-3 generations of mobile phones further.
Not quite. The Xoom is actually 3G (EVDO Rev A) at the moment but sometime in the future they'll offer a hardware upgrade to 4G LTE. They say its supposed to be free.
But I've seen video of the Nook in action, and I think I just wouldn't be able to live with how slow it is. It's...fine. But I think the CPU is slower than my phone's.
Probably. The CPU in the Nook Color is slower than in my Android handset.
The Nook has:
800MHz Cortex A8. 512MB RAM. 8GB internal storage. MicroSD slot. 7 inch 1024x600 LCD with capacitive touchscreen. 802.11b/g/n WiFi.
Not too bad for $249 but you're relying on hacks to make it into something more than an eReader which may make things a little broken or annoying occasionally.
There is a glut of $100-$200 Android tablets out there from no name or "what? they still exist?" manufacturers but most of them are awful. Slow CPU, limited RAM, limited storage, resistive touchscreens and ancient Android versions. Pick at least 1 out of that list for each of these crap tablets.
We felt that our ability to deliver 50Mb/s would justify the $799 price point. It is 32GB with 3G and a free upgrade to 4G. Being competitive with iPad is important. We feel that from the hardware and capabilities we deliver we are at least competitive and in a number of ways better [than the iPad].”
Sorry, that tablet looks like a heaping pile of crap. What's even worse than theoretical 4G speeds are those that are only vaguely promised. And even then, the metric adds little value to the tablet experience, hardly enough to justify the kind of premium they're talking about. That's just not what makes one tablet reign over another.
What amazes me the most is that these companies don't see what has actually made Apple successful. It's staring them in the face every day and they just don't get it. Apple changed its business completely. They were doing the same old same old as everybody else and it wasn't working. When Jobs came back they put the brakes on and changed the whole business.
Everyone else thinks that they can get out of their holes with simply a bigger shovel. They just want to keep doing the same thing they've been doing.
When Jobs came back they put the brakes on and changed the whole business.
When Elop joined they put the brakes on and screwed the whole business! Somebody tell Nokia that change in direction is good but not if you're aiming further down.
But yes, Apple was stuck in a rut back then and if they didn't do their radical change in products and philosophy they'd be long dead. It saved them and made them into the 300lbs gorilla they are today.
Dignan carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Also, if I were someone working for Verizon, I'd be saying "woah, what's this BS about your ability to deliver these speeds? You don't have to s***"
And I agree, how does that translate to the price of this device? He still doesn't seem to acknowledge that they're pricing the Xoom higher than last year's iPad, not this year's.
Now I really want to see a company like Samsung or LG come out with a $400 tablet and kick their asses. Hell, at this point they could come out with a $600 3G tablet and still kick Motorola's butt.
Thanks for the link, Bruno. That article made me angry
Originally Posted By: tman
There is a glut of $100-$200 Android tablets out there from no name or "what? they still exist?" manufacturers but most of them are awful. Slow CPU, limited RAM, limited storage, resistive touchscreens and ancient Android versions. Pick at least 1 out of that list for each of these crap tablets.
More like "I've never heard of them before" companies Those things were awful. Of course, that didn't stop me from checking my local Walgreens to see if they had one I could buy, play with for a day, then return
The funniest part about the comment you just quoted is that it's a perfect description of... Wait for it... Motorola.
It perfectly describes their handset business.
And those are some fine words from a company that still hasn't shipped anything at all in the tablet space.
I guess someone needs to tell that executive that his tablet only has 32GB of storage, the amount found on iPhones, and half of what's available on the iPad. Hopefully we'll see 128GB this year.
There's finally an official price from Motorola: $799 for 3G, $600 for WiFi only. Both of those are clearly too high.
"around $600", whatever that means. I think they were seeing the response to the $799 price, and are trying to make it look as if one model is going to be priced at the 32gb iPad. Lots of press sites are dropping the around part, so it seems to be working.
Dignan carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: andy
Apple charge $130 for their 3G radio.
Yeah I know, and I thought that seemed slightly high, but it looks pretty good compared to $200.
Originally Posted By: tman
Originally Posted By: Dignan
The problem is then: so it's $200 just for a 3/4G radio?
Its $200 for a 3G radio board, a 4G radio board and the technician time necessary to swap the boards when the 4G radio is actually released.
While that might be understandable, why should the consumer eat the cost of their failure to get 4G radios in there in the first place? And in the future it'll just come with 4G and not need the trade-out.
While that might be understandable, why should the consumer eat the cost of their failure to get 4G radios in there in the first place? And in the future it'll just come with 4G and not need the trade-out.
*shrug* Maybe the 3G radio is free and the 4G radio is just more expensive?
As Andy pointed out, the Apple 3G radio costs you $130 and it also appears that it is the same chip as the iPhone 3 and 3GS. Apple will have significant buying power just based on the number of those chips in the shipped units of iPhone 3, iPhone 3GS and iPad 3Gs.
The GPS is part of the 3G radio. A lot of the high end phone chips include GPS functionality now. Although I don't think the Xoom actually has it or if it does, its not currently enabled.
The GPS is part of the 3G radio. A lot of the high end phone chips include GPS functionality now.
The iPhone 4 CDMA edition was unique in being the first Apple mobile device to use the GPS support of the cellular baseband chip. The iPad and previous phones had a separate AGPS chip tied into the device. Though I doubt the cost reduction of removing a dedicated chip will be passed onto the consumer in Apple's case since they stick to the same price brackets generation after generation.
Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
Maximum workhours tend to be mandated by the chinese government, and obviously they have decided that x hours spread over y days is what they are happy with. From what I've seen there myself, most of the workers are scrambling to do as much work as possible - everything they are legally allowed.
Most do not see factory work as a long-term career - some do, progressing to line managers then project managers or R&D engineers, but that's the exception rather than the rule. Most of them are there for a few years, work really hard, make a (relative) pile, send plenty back to their parents then move on to something else. They're away from their families, their friends also work at the same place, so you can see how this makes sense to a kid fresh out of school.
I mean, the UK opted out of the EU working hours directive because it'd stop people being able to work as long as they wanted and whilst the sub 40 hour workweek sounds like a great idea for work-life balance, there are plenty of people who would hate it (like me).
Don't assume that people are being forced to work. It's a good job, especially compared to the alternatives, which is why they're never short of applicants...
The Motorola Xoom was confirmed at $800 and today VZ has announced a discounted price of $600 with a 2-year contract. Oh, it's not shipping with any Flash support at all. That's supposedly going to come later in the spring. Probably a good thing Motorola didn't wait on Adobe, right?
Great example why not controlling your own software stack sucks.
In the UK you can get an iPad for UKP99 on a two year contract. We must be getting close to an announcement.
Here's a funny one. The Xoom can't even browse its own craptastic web page, because the whole thing is unnecessarily (and horrendously!) done in Flash. If there was even a time to use that popular internet meme it's now. FAIL.
Dignan carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
My question is why the subsidized price is less than normal. It seems like Verizon is taking less of a hit on the Xoom for some reason. Possibly because the contracts aren't as lucrative...
If showing non-working mock-ups was bad enough, Samsung's extremely boring presentation is using paid actors pretending to be people off the street...
Oh, and the non-working mockup was still thicker than the iPad 2, though Samsung claimed otherwise. Must be something getting lost in the translation of bullshit to English.
Samsung "unveiled" at CTIA this week a new thinner Galaxy Tab which it probably put together in the past two weeks based on how well the iPad 2 has been doing. Unveiled is in quotes because they didn't actually show anything real. Employees carried around some plastic mock-ups pretending they were real, but anyone could have knocked those out in a few days, they were nothing but solid blocks as far as I've read. Now they've set themselves up with a due-date of June to actually engineer the product that's supposed to fit into what they showed. Good luck with that.
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