The problem is with the device being nothing but a (very tiny) doorstop when ElectricImp eventually goes bust (1-10 years from now). Imagine a whole home automation system based on it.. now needing replacement.

Or not necessarily "going bust", but simply "losing interest" or "deprecating the product."

Ain't gonna fly, at least not with anyone who thinks ahead.

I have to say I don't really get it. I mean, the geek in me thinks that this is very cool, but I'm struggling to see what the market is.

I'm imagining this is a technology that would be licensed to OEM manufacturers, like the washing machine example, but I'm not exactly sure that embedded connectivity is the long pole in the tent for these things. I certainly don't see a large market of enthusiasts who will connect them to their own franken-devices and program them, etc. I am probably ignorant and missing it, but I don't understand what problem this solves. If I am going to design a machine of some kind that has the socket for an imp, along with the logic and hardware to use it meaningfully, then why don't I just put my own wifi chip and antenna on the device? Sticking one of these into a camera won't connect the camera to the internet unless the camera has software to use it, right? Or am I wrong? Is that the point? I don't understand.

Of course, it could go very well...

I do see what you mean, but on the other hand any local server that a normal person might put in will likely also suffer from bit rot. A subscription service at least has a reason to continue operating as long as it has subscribers - My UK TiVo service ran for many many years after TiVo abandoned the UK market, for example.

If you want to roll your own home monitoring/control solution, there's a wide range of things on the market to do that work.

This pretty much addresses the why: http://www.electricimp.com/manufacturers/

It's a royal pain "just sticking my own wifi chip and antenna on the device". Besides, just doing that gets you... a device on local wifi. You'll need to run a service too, plus write some phone apps, deal with upgrades, sort out your security and configuration, etc.

All this is stuff which is best done once, by people whose business it is to do this stuff well. Would you trust a washing machine vendor to keep your device up to date with security updates, add facilities to talk to whatever new useful internet service comes out, or, god forbid, make their machine work with some other product made by a competitor? It's not their area of expertise - there's not really any money in it for them either.

Besides manufacturers like this, we're opening the market for "boring" devices to become cheaper. Want a plug top power controller? Buying a no-name chinese brand would be awful if you were relying on their software (and for them to fix bugs and provide updates), but buy one with an imp slot and all they have to do is make a power supply and a relay in a plastic box. You get proper networking and integration from a specialist.

Separating the networking/service bit and the device is actually a really good way to go.... at least IMHO

Lots of equipment in a typical home could benefit from decent Internet connectivity.

A furnace and A/C system that could report when the gas burner doesn't light as quickly or conistently as it used to (but the problem would otherwise be hidden behind an automatic retry and restart design until complete failure occurs) or the A/C cooling output is less effective than expected. Equipment that can request the owner call for service before failure or even directly request the service itself.

Equipment that can provide useful and usable ongoing and historical operational data. Equipment that can report and monitor trends and forecast wear, consumption or sub-optimal usage.

Equipment that can be told (via the Internet) when the power rates are lower (or higher) and factor that into its operation. Or be told about outside weather (current or forecasted) and adjust intelligently. Less local sensors and more efficient operation.

An outdoor ice/snow melting system that knows when the snow storm would actually arrive and preheat. Or automatic sunshades and climate control that know when it is cloudy without using local senors.

Equipment that can report operational statistics or other data back to the manufacturer or service organization.

Cars that can report each night their fuel consumption numbers and potential service items. Refrigerator that orders its own replacement water filter and it arrives the same day the 'replace filter' message appears on the front panel.

Devices with no front panel at all that you can easily configure and control from your smartphone or a web page. And provide data about how and how well the device is working.

Commercial equipment of many forms, from vending machines to security devices to specialized and vertical market equipment. Toner for the photocopier arrives just as it is needed.

Smart remote cloud services that add layers of management and integration to make swarms of enabled devices (of many different types) act and react in smart ways.

And many more...

Potential seems tremendous. Excellent!

I'd rather have the subscription "cost" built into the device at point of purchase, at least that way the only things I have to worry about are:

* it breaks (and I have to buy a replacement - and effectively I'll have paid for 2 subscriptions for the "same" device, but that's preferable to a monthly ongoing subscription which I may have to expand depending on how many units I have)

* the servers go off at electric imp.

Without playing with a device and knowing how it works, would there be the possibility of electric imp providing a "hobbyist" server, you know, something that will allow imps to run independently of the cloud but without support for commercial imp connected devices? I wouldn't even care about an overlord license on it "this may only be used for IMP devices that you own" etc.

Cortex M3? Energy micro?

Edit: Seems not, ST....

I can see a massive market myself.

Take my Pioneer AV Receiver for example, that is "internet" enabled. But it is quite difficult to use and need it's own app on the iPhone to work. As I see it if it had an EI slot on the front I could slip in a card fire up my home automation software/service/app and it would be there ready to go!

Apply that to most new electronics in a home and the doors really start opening up.

Cheers

Cris

I like the idea very much, but I imagine the hard part is getting manufacturers to implement a EI slot on their devices. (you'll need one of those on every device using it, if I understand correctly?)

If you could get them to do this, then you're all set.

Will you also look into getting it connected to existing home automation standards? Like EIB/KNX?

The STM32F2 in the Imp is a Cortex M3. I absolutely love these micros, I've used them in dozens of applications over the last couple of years. Of course in this case we're kept out of the firmware (at least directly) but from what I hear the script engine runs very quickly (and so it should).

The power consumption also looks very good. My first project will be adding an Imp to my RFID cat flap which runs on 4 AA cells. If Hugo's figures are accurate, and assuming I can get a wakeup signal from the RFID module, it should run for months/years on a set of batteries.

Rob

We're just in the process of doing a cut down version of one of our products and in addition are looking to cut our power usage. The "systems" our product are used in are generally battery powered, but we're talking big batteries (30+Ah) because of the load that it drives.

However, static current draw is a concern to us (because the load isn't on anywhere near 100% of the time) and we pretty much hit the limit on what was achievable with the old design and micro (SAM7 micro).

We knew we were moving to Cortex from ARM7 and we had a good look around at what was about, including the STM32 and the offerings from NXP, TI etc.

We eventually settled on the EnergyMicro family of Cortex M3 because they were designed from the ground up for low power, there's some pretty neat stuff in there for optimising power usage, oh and they're also pretty darned cheap.

...wants to get hands on an Imp to have a play.

This is where the greatest potential lies but also where my greatest fear for the product is. It makes complete sense that these companies should hand over this part of their product to someone who knows what they're doing, but it seems that more and more, these CE companies seem to be under the impression that they're software and service designers too. Convincing them otherwise seems like it will be the toughest row to hoe.

Right up until they did actually turn it off. Luckily TiVo's that old were hackable enough that someone else was able to carry on where TiVo left off and provide a programme guide that still works.

So, I think I'd be happier committing to a system if I knew that there was no DRM or other artificial mechanism that would stop the device (at least theoretically) working with an alternative service.

A proprietary mesh isn't a problem at all if you're using a Z-Wave (or whatever) to WiFi (or ethernet more likely) gateway to interface with your TCP/IP network. I don't think having every light switch on your LAN will be very good in practice. I'd much rather have a single controller able to address all the switches, with only that controller connected directly to the LAN. IMO, that's much more useful and would allow a single server-like app to interface with all the switches. Otherwise for that kind of functionality you'd still have to install such software on a server somewhere, also connected to the LAN.

Or conversely, that the network implementers are CE experts. Who is going to implement the software? How will it work with this type of product? Will it offer all the features a particular company wants exposed for their product? What if they want different product lines to have different features? What if they DON'T want it to work with competitor's products? How will they differentiate?

I see the potential and I see some of the benefits, but I also see a ton of question marks and dotted lines.

I dunno, Hugo. I think the vendor is going to be concerned with how clean his machine gets clothes, and is not going to be interested in re-tooling his factory and increasing his manufacturing cost in order to accommodate the tiny percentage of nerds and geeks who think it is a good idea to connect their washing machines to the internet.

I can imagine a woman asking the salesman "But why would I want to use my washing machine to send emails?"

I think you will have a difficult time convincing manufacturers to abandon the NIH (Not Invented Here) attitude that is deeply ingrained in most businesses.

tanstaafl.

Since this device will integrate into a machine and control it I’m thing finger pointing might be an issue for the washing machine owner. When the washing machine breaks the repair person might say “That’s your problem right there, you got that there imp thing installed.” Then when you call the imp tech line you get a tech saying we don’t fix washing machines.

So if the washing machine company does want to provide good customer service they’re going to have to take “ownership” of the imp and warranty the imp. In the end this will cost the company more than just adding an imp slot.

Well, for pretty much everybody selling boxes, the fashionable trend right now is to move back to the old IBM mainframe revenue model. They don't want to sell you a washing machine, they want you to subscribe to a washing machine service, where the customer pays a monthly fee for having their washing machine maintained and updated. Great idea, but why would I want to have my washing machine updated, and does it really benefit from preventive maintenance?

How about a life-long subscription option, similar Garmin's life map-update subscription? That would possibly make those who don't like subscriptions happy. I am one of them.

Also, how about some ready-to-end-user device that may help the product start pernetrate the market? I, for one, would love a plug adapter to place between plug and socket that tells me about consumption, produces stats, allows me to turn on and off devices? I know a socket bult-in solution would be more elegant, but many of us, I think, would still love something like that to begin with. As a matter of fact, I personally would like it so much I'd buy a bunch of them from day one (of EU shipping)

Just thinking out loud.

Congratulation on the new product. I wish you succeed in establishing a sort of de-facto standard, or at least to get as popular as the product deserves.

... oh, and My wishlist also would include:

1. Windows Phone App

2. Runnign my own server app. I am a bit confused here. If the Imp exposes some standard interface on the user-end, why can't that info be collected/controlled by a local server just as it is from the cloud? I am sure I am missing some parts, here.

Where there is and ongoing service I am far happier to be paying a subscription rather than a one off cost. Quite apart from anything else, it increases the chances that the service will be around for a long time...

True. It is just me, I am one of those who hates installments/periodic fees/sybscriptions and other forms of payments that extend in time. Still, I use them all the time, it goes w/o saying. But, was I offered a $2 monthly fee or a $100 upfront lifetime, provided it is for a product I like and cherish, I'd probably go with the $100. What can I tell you.

I find my Garmin nav a nice (useful) device. Garmin asks for € 20 circa each full map update. But they also offered a life-long update plan, at € 100, which can be migrated from one device to another (but one device at the time). I particularly liked that. Only last week I updated my Garmin for the sixth time, so I am only now economically benefiting from the life-time subscription, after more that two years. If it wasn't that it is a water-proof model for motorbikes which they did not care to update so far, it would probably be outdated hardware, and after two year who knows what I would be considering now. Trying TomTom, getting a new model wich comes with at least one mat upgrade, etc. So, I am not sure the life-long subscription it is a valid economic choice. Pychologically, I like it. I just know that I can always plug my Garmin to my PC and update it, and forget all worries.

I've been pondering the business model behind the Imp and I think it makes more sense for "cheap" devices (light switches) than "expensive" ones (home appliances).

For the light switches, a builder can roll cheap switches that happen to be Imp-ready into any new-construction house. Most home buyers won't do anything, while some will buy a 20-pack of Imps and have a rocking home automation system. That makes lots of sense.

Conversely, for the fridge, the dish washer, or even the thermostat, there's a lot more going on. Sure, you could stick an Imp slot in a "dumb" thermostat, but that doesn't yield something half as smart as a Nest, with all its extra sensors and more sophisticated control systems. (Not that they exactly *work*, but that's getting off-topic.)

The other trick with major appliances is who gets to "own the experience" of the homeowner. If I'm GE or Bosch or Miele, I want the user to log into ge.com, not electricimp.com. Among other things, they want to connect sales and service. "Ahh, I see your fridge's water filter is expired. Can we bill your card and send you a fresh one?"

And then, there's the whole open question of who gets to be at the center of the "connected home." When you talk about coordinating things like your fridge and your A/C and your electric car, where you want to stay below some maximum current draw, you need central coordination to make decisions. Who gets to own that? Apple? Honeywell? Electric Imp? Heaven forbid we might have a *standard* for how all of this stuff will interoperate.

I'm going to try to knock up an Imp connected RFID cat flap to see how well it works in practice (keeping in mind this stuff is pre-alpha right now).

Blogging it here:

http://fenconsultants.com/blog/

Rob

Excellent point. Sadly the products I've seen that do this are obscenely expensive and look like they have terrible interfaces. I've been waiting for someone to come around to this market segment for years and shake it up, because it would be SO easy to do. I was hoping that Google was going to do it, but ever since that Google IO announcement about automation stuff, I haven't heard word one about it

I really need to reiterate how awesome the Z-Wave mesh network is. I have NEVER had signal issues with it, it works every single time, and every single device gets the signal every time. It's pretty amazing stuff. Now I just wish it were easier to set up, and had more control options...

How about: "of course I'd love to receive a text message/email/big red flashing light that tells me when the washing has finished or reminds me when the washing has been sat in the machine for half an hour and I haven't emptied it. Will this let me do that?"

It's a great reminder to get in the car and then drive, from work, an hour back home to deal with the wash.

A washing machine needs an wifi/lan/internet connection as much as an ottoman needs an oil pump. A wifi connection on that type of machine doesn't do anything remotely interesting (no pun intended) to automate its functionality. Nothing that isn't already accomplished with timers and sensors already built into machines for over a decade. The benefit of automation comes in removing/lessening the manual portion of the activity. A wifi connection can't do this.

Why would anybody start their wash before work when it takes an hour to get to work (my typical load takes 51minutes)? I see it more as a use for somebody outside doing lawn work, or playing in the pool where you can't hear the washing machine beeping.

While it's true to say the WiFi connection itself doesn't make this happen, it does open the door to a whole new world of automation and control. How about keeping logs of water consumption and energy usage? The weight of the load and suggestions of how you can do your washing more efficiently?

It's going to be very interesting to see how this plays out, and I look forward to having a play with it when it hits the UK.

Cheers

Cris

And just how is a washing machine going to do that without $100 worth of extra sensors and firmware? It would cost the manufacturer tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars to re-tool his factory, purchase the additional pieces and install them, pay someone to write and support the firmware for the additional electronics, all so someone can pay $200 more for a washing machine that gets his clothes exactly as clean as the low-end model without all the bells and whistles.

Oh, boy -- more efficient. I can't imagine how saving two pints of water and 1/10 of a kWh per load is going to save me $200 over the life of the machine. At 10 cents/kWh, two loads per week, it would take nearly 200 years for the payback.

If my clothes sit in the washing machine for an extra hour (or even an extra day) before I put them in the dryer... Well, dilligaf?

tanstaafl.

Yeah. Right.

tanstaafl.