Sorry for the OT, but I got my first speeding ticket in 6 years yesterday, and it's time to get a radar detector (cause i don't plan on going 55 to work through some of the most fun curves in Marin County!!)

I know i've seen people on this board mention the Valentine One as being the be all end all, but i wanted a few more opinions. Is it unrealistic to hope to get a good one for under $200US?? So what are your experiences with detectors.... shoot!


|| loren.cox ||

I don't have a specific detector to recommend besides the Valentine One, but I will mention the following:

A radar detector is only a tool.

If you want to drive fast and still avoid speeding tickets, there are a whole lot of other things you need to do and learn. The radar detector can handle one small aspect of the ticket avoidance puzzle, but it's not the whole picture.

I'm not going to post my exact driving habits on a public forum, but let's just say that my travel times between points A and B are significantly lower than most folks would consider reasonable. And in my entire life, I have only been written up for one speeding ticket: going 65 in a 55 zone. And that one only happened because I wasn't in "ticket avoidance" mode and wasn't paying attention to what I was doing.

Oh, and by the way, I do not own a radar detector. It is possible to avoid tickets without one. In fact, in the one situation where I was actually ticketed, the detector wouldn't have helped anyway because the cop wasn't using radar. There are techniques you can use, things you can do, and stuff you can learn about the way Highway Patrol does its job. It's not too difficult, but it all comes down to being careful and attentive whenever you're exceeding the speed limit.

Loren, if you ever want me to "talk your ear off" on the subject, we can get together the next time I'm in the Bay area (or the next time you come up to Tahoe).

___________
Tony Fabris

Okay let me take this opportunity to get a little carried away...

I often toy around with having a radar detector installed into my car in such away that it's not a seperate device to get in my way. Is there anything on the market that is installed, maybe in the front of the car or something like that?

Ideally, this would be out of site, out of mind kind of a thing until I need it, and then it when it detects something it would "dim" the volume on the empeg (does this for car phones now, no?) to alert me.

I have a Belkin radar detector now...cordless, so I don't have a wire hanging down in my way. I do have to feed it batteries though. Most of the time..I don't even hear it because I like to listen to my music LOUD!

Anybody know anything about this stuff?

--Chris Willenbrock
MK2 | 12GB | Queue Registration # 2 (really!)

There are plenty of radar detectors with remote-mounting kits. Usually these are an extra-cost add-on. These put an unobtrusive little display on your dash panel, with the actual detector mounted out of sight. I'd always figured it would be best to open the instrument cluster and actually integrate the LEDs with the dash lights, dunno if that's do-able.

I think it would be cool if a radar detector could be wired to the Empeg's cell-phone-mute line. I don't know if that's an option on any detectors, though.

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Tony Fabris

You know Tony, that's EXACTLY what happened. I am ALWAYS in ticket avoidence mode driving to work, i know where the HWP hide and where to look out, and i'm always scanning ahead, but i just wasn't paying attention for that 30 seconds when i should have yesterday, i was off in lala land for some reason, i think i was looking at a Porsche next to me when i should have seen the cop in plain view. It would be nice to have a detector just to know if they are there or not, it would make driving to work that little bit more relaxing if i didn't have to be so "awake" to speed traps all the time, so i figured i'd check out people's experiences with 'em. But, i hear ya, you are definitely right on that topic, which is why i've only gotten one ticket in my 8 years of driving.


|| loren.cox ||

If you were on the freeway, the radar detector wouldn't have helped you. HP doesn't use radar on the freeway. No point, with so many cars.

They usually just pace you. A good pacing is the most ironclad kind of ticket when challenged in court. And since there are so many drivers out there who don't pay attention, the HP doesn't usually have a problem dropping in behind them and pacing them.

The most dangerous one is when you unwittingly approach an HP from behind (say, at night, or if it's an unmarked car)...

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Tony Fabris

I think it would be cool if a radar detector could be wired to the Empeg's cell-phone-mute line. I don't know if that's an option on any detectors, though.



Valentine 1.

Anything else is a toy, and WILL cost you more over the long run.

Obviously it's a biased opinion, but it's alot like the Empeg... once you have it, you aren't going back.

I've got mine setup remote. The detector itself is mounted directly under the passenger visor, with the power and information cable (it's a phone cord, mega nice) running inside the support down to the console.

At that point I have a split. Power comes in here, switched from the key. One phone cord goes to the dash area, where I have a remote display mounted. It is doable to integrate with the dashboard, but since my car only recently pasted it's warranty, I didn't want to screw with the dash THAT much. It is placed directly between the Tach and Speedo, works pretty nice. I suppose I'll have to pull the Digital camera out and start taking pictures of my install(s). The second out is for audio, which I've rigged with a little homemade electronics work to trigger the mute on the empeg whenever the audio threshold is met. I've got additional speakers triggering out of this module as well.

The Detector itself IS visible from outside the car in daylight, but you have to look for it, as it's mounted VERY high, and is recessed a bit. There also isn't a visible wire, so I don't get any second glances. At night, it's invisible, with the display indicators visible only to me.

The Valentine 1 is simply the best radar/laser (bastards just got a few of those guns around here) detector out there. Anything of lesser quality will only result in you paying more... to the insurance.

Obviously, it also does not replace a human with a brain paying attention to what he/she is doing... If you are at high speed rates, you should be paying enough attention to the road to spot the cop before you are in range anyways... The Valentine just helps you out.

If you are at high speed rates, you should be paying enough attention to the road to spot the cop before you are in range anyways

My philosophy exactly. If you're going to speed, you need to be in a heightened state of situational awareness in order to be a safe driver. If you can't maintain this state of awareness, you should slow down.

My 65-in-a-55 ticket is an example of a time when I shouldn't have been speeding. I was having a conversation with my wife and wasn't checking onramps in my side mirror. He dropped onto the freeway exactly in my right rear blind spot (this guy was good).

I probably would have gotten off with a warning if I hadn't made one critical mistake: Instead of slowing to 55, I thought that slamming on the brakes would have been too guilty-looking. Truth is, if I'd slammed on the brakes when I first saw him behind me, he wouldn't have been able to pace me in time and wouldn't have had a good clocking. Depending on the cop, they usually won't write you up unless they're sure the clocking is ironclad.

___________
Tony Fabris

If you're going to speed, you need to be in a heightened state of situational awareness in order to be a safe driver.


Yup yup yup.

Best I remember, California was certainly different in style from the South, but paying attention will save you more times than a detector (of ANY quality) will... That said... The Valentine has STILL saved my ass many more times than I can count. And unlike just about any other detector, when it goes off:
A: I hear it.... it's speaker is LOUD.
B: I pay attention to it. Falses in Advanced Logic mode simply DO NOT happen. If you get a beep from it, There is a radar source there. If you drive in the same area, you learn to ignore the same ones. With the Valentine, you can tell how MANY sources are there... It works GREAT.

A favorite trick here is for the cops to run radar in the same areas that they know are radar falses (door openers, security systems, etc.. ). With the Valentine, you simply notice there are more radar sets than there used to be, and know there is a cop there. With other detectors, you don't. I've seen SOOO many people get pulled by this trick. It works Very well, and is easy for the cops to do, so they use it alot here. They tend to be lazy, and leave the gun on, so with the V1, I know they are there a mile or two before I ever enter their range.

Unfortunately, It appears that I'm going to be in California in a week or two on business (L.A.), so it looks like I get to refresh my memory of Chips.. :)

It appears that I'm going to be in California in a week or two on business (L.A.), so it looks like I get to refresh my memory of Chips

If you haven't driven in California for a while, then there's something you should know: CHP is adding more unmarked cars to its lineup lately.

I have seen some pretty stealthy ones recently. The most frightening one was when I saw a late-model gray Dodge Intrepid blow by me in the left lane and nail someone right in front of me. I thought it was just another passenger car. I'd never seen Intrepids as unmarked cars before, and this one didn't have any external indications that it was a CHP. For instance, instead of an array of lights on the parcel shelf, it simply had its tail light, turn signals, and marker lights blinking in an alternating pattern. The "pull over" light was mounted on the back side of the rearview mirror. It wasn't bristling with the obvious collection of radio antennas.

Once upon a time, you could spot the unmarked units by seeing the circled "E" (for Exempt) on the license plate. Now they don't even do that. The only way to tell if it's a government car is to see if the plate has its year and month tags on it (exempt cars don't have tags). I check for this constantly now whenever I approach a suspicious vehicle from behind.

I long for the old days when you could spot a CHP from two miles away...

___________
Tony Fabris

Fabris: "A good pacing is the most ironclad kind of ticket when challenged in court."

Tony,

You've obviously never been nailed by an airplane!

(I went back to Yakima and did get my fine reduced, but it was almost amusing to watch a long parade of "I didn't do it! I swear!" airplane -- and pacing -- victims get their heads stepped on by a very bored judge. Thankfully, the trap marks were at the point that I had slowed down to 79!)

There's 1 V1 on eBay, but it's already up to $330.

Jim

You've obviously never been nailed by an airplane!

Good point. Airplanes are also very ironclad. However, I deliberately skipped talking about airplanes because those are so easy to spot from a long way off. The only times I've ever seen an airplane-assembly-line churning out tickets, I could see it from five miles away or more.

You'd have to be driving with blinders on to be nailed by an airplane. Either that, or you didn't know there was a such thing as airplane tickets. "Here I am on the freeway, and up ahead there's this Cessna flying VERY LOW and exactly parallel to the freeway. Oh, gee, isn't that cute, someone is out sightseeing... ... along the freeway..."

___________
Tony Fabris

Here in Mesa, AZ the newest fad in unmarked cars are pickup trucks. No visible signs on the outside as far as I could tell. I think they were Ford F150s, a year or two old. One was brown and the other was white. The headlights and taillights 'waggle' and the red and blue lights are mounted to the sun visor, the officer flips the visors down and then turns the lights on. The officer has a special uniform, just a polo shirt, with no markings on it, except near the waist where he was wearing his badge, gun, cuffs, etc. He was also in blue jeans. Very scary indeed.

Ouch, I still haven't seen pickups in CA. There's a lot of Broncos, but no actual pickups. That'd get me for sure, as I deliberately skip over pickups when scanning.

You know what would really get me? (Hope no HP buyers are reading this...) If it was a Japanese or a German car. Like a VW or a Honda or a Toyota. So far, the one common denominator is that the government vehicles always come from the USA.

Stick a cop in an unmarked black Jetta, for example, and it'll nail me every time.

Another one I always ignore are Minivans, even American ones. Anyone ever see an unmarked HP minivan? That'd nail me for sure.

Another thing I watch out for when scanning is the number of persons in the vehicle. If an unmarked CHP had two people in it, it'd probably nail me, as I pass over multi-passenger cars while scanning.

___________
Tony Fabris

The thing about it, as I've talked to a few HP....

95% of the people they WANT to get are stopped by marked cars. If someone is moderately exceeding the limit, but driving in a safe manner, ala paying attention, then 99% of the time, they aren't going to get stopped.

Of course, this discounts the bat out of hell drivers, and the cop with a stick up his.... but honestly, the careful drivers aren't what they are looking for... Most of the time.

It just seems a waste of money for them to outfit all of these unmarked vehicles when 95% are going to get caught in an ambush or aren't paying enough attention to see a marked vehicle....

But then we ARE talking about government....

Another thing I watch out for when scanning is the number of persons in the vehicle. If an unmarked CHP had two people in it, it'd probably nail me, as I pass over multi-passenger cars while scanning.

Interesting. Here in Germany, you could skip over single-passenger cars. That' because our HP (or our equivalent thereof) needs at least one witness besides the officer who is writing the ticket. Cars with more than two people in them are unlikely to be HP cars though.

cu,
sven

proud MkII owner (12GB blue/green/smoked, #080000113)

I spent a few years on a project in Fresno watching CHP lazily loop over I-5, and I was absolutely chock full of airplane-aware hubris until I got nailed. Those spots on the east slope of the Cascades where I-82 and 90 traverse a ridge and flip their exposure? Well, I've learned to look for those transitions. Oh, and I just had to have an excuse to get that Icom R3 scanner for east-side road trips. Now if I can figure out how to make that trip the cell phone mute.

Jim

And the claims that a Valentine One can detect radar around curves is spot on! Frequently, in my area, they will set up the "courtesy radars" reminding you of your speed. I have run back and forth by these testing my Valentine One and it usually picks up the radar with a higher reading nearly a 1/2 mile before it can be seen, including curves. And it's saved me a few times in the speed trap areas. Basically you get used to the "normal traffic" that the detector picks up, and then be aware of abnormal behavior, that's when the radar is around.

One thing I wonder is will the Valentine One pick upa radar jammer as a radar signal? Sometimes I get full indicator when certain cars pass me and I pass them, etc. I'm 99% sure they'r enot cops..

"Bogey @ 9 oclock, showing 7 on the Ka band"
"Got 'em! Reducing speed to 65..."


Dave Clark
Austin, Texas
12g Blue MK2
S/N was 80000329 -> now 90000970

Those spots on the east slope of the Cascades where I-82 and 90 traverse a ridge and flip their exposure? Well, I've learned to look for those transitions.

Interesting. I've never seen an airplane trap like that before. I'll keep my eyes open in those situations. Thanks for the tip.

___________
Tony Fabris

Anyone ever see an unmarked HP minivan?

Here, they have marked mini-vans. They are unmanned (except for one officer usually sitting in the cab, reading or something). They are bristling with cameras though. The radar they use is very low powered (my Whistler picks them up at a very low level about 1/2 block before I get to them, it has picked up regular radar 2 miles away, on the other side of a hill). If you are speeding, they take a picture of the front of the car (centered on the driver), and the back (so they can get the license plate, which isn't required on the front in AZ). Sometimes they have warning signs up of the 'photo enforcement zone ahead', but not all the time.

They also have hidden camera/radar traps in certain areas, such as the medians disguised as a cactus. They also have cameras at a bunch of intersections that get tripped if somebody runs a red light (AZ has like 2 of the top 3 cities for worst red light running, maybe 3 out of the top 5).

It just seems a waste of money for them to outfit all of these unmarked vehicles

Seems to me that it wouldn't be any more expensive to outfit an unmarked vehicle than a marked one. Which brings me to your other point...

95% of the people they WANT to get are stopped by marked cars. If someone is moderately exceeding the limit, but driving in a safe manner, ala paying attention, then 99% of the time, they aren't going to get stopped.

This sounds logical, until you consider the fact that they do employ unmarked vehicles. In my eye, an unmarked HP has only one purpose: To sneak up on, and nail, otherwise-attentive speeders. (There's a Red October reference in here somewhere, I think...)

Sure, you may have spoken to some enlightened HP officers who espouse that philosophy, and they might even be in the majority. But there is still the one aspect of HP operations that's simply a ticket-making machine. That's the part that I'm concerned about.

The fact is that tickets generate a certain amount of revenue for the local governments and the state. Agreed, your fines don't pay for the highway patrol, but revenues from fines are a factor in budgets. If the highway patrol was only ever interested in safety, then they wouldn't have any need for ticket quotas or unmarked cars.

I'm not saying it's wrong to write tickets to speeders. The HP does a good job of keeping the peace on our freeways, and they perform a necessary function. I wouldn't have things any other way. The fact that they keep me on my toes is a good thing.

If only I could get them to enforce "Slower Traffic Keep Right" as much as they enforce the speed limit, I'd be a happy camper.

___________
Tony Fabris

Don't get me started on Cameras!

I will say that photo-radar is definitely one good reason to own a detector.

As far as the red-light-running cameras are concerned, it makes me angry that they're even necessary. I read (I think it was in Car and Driver) that cities have been deliberately increasing the traffic signal intervals. The theory is that longer signal intervals will improve overall traffic flow.

But if the signals were shorter, then people wouldn't think, "oh my god, if I don't make this yellow then I'll be stuck here for five freaking minutes." If they just sped up the signal intervals again, then people wouldn't want to run the red lights so much and they wouldn't need the cameras in the first place.

Classic example of solving one problem only to create new ones.

___________
Tony Fabris

If an unmarked CHP had two people in it, it'd probably nail me, as I pass over multi-passenger cars while scanning.

That's bizarre, I do exactly the opposite here in the UK. As far as I know traffic cops always travel in pairs in the UK, so I tend to ignore suspcious cars that only have one person in (and daytime on weekdays in the UK that is most cars).


__
Unit serial number 47 (was 330 in the queue)...

What you need are more roundabouts..

__
Unit serial number 47 (was 330 in the queue)...

No kidding. But US drivers aren't accustomed to roundabouts. They just installed one here near the college. I have a friend that works in an office building next to the roundabout, and it surprises and confuses everyone who tries it for the first time. I nearly got slammed on it just the other day.

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Tony Fabris

Seems to me that it wouldn't be any more expensive to outfit an unmarked vehicle than a marked one. Which brings me to your other point...


I did hear that all of that hidden gear is more expensive, but I agree, it's not much more over the cost of the car... The problem is that it is KNOWN, and has been shown in numerous studies that the presence of marked cars is a known deterant. Therefore, for every UNMARKED car, you are reducing your visible presence and therefore deterant capability. Unless you want to everyone thinking that "That next car COULD be a cop"... Which sounds fine in theory.. but blows when compared to reality.


I'm not saying it's wrong to write tickets to speeders. The HP does a good job of keeping the peace on our freeways, and they perform a necessary function.


I don't even have a problem with this. If anything, MY problem is from the insurance-government tie-in that has taken place. I don't mind paying for a ticket (although I haven't to date.. knocking on wood now)... It's the raping of the insurance fee's for the next 5 years that pisses me off......

(RANT)
ESPECIALLY from certain Insurance agencies that make a Great deal of publicity over "Protecting our highways" by giving away Radar and lidar guns to Police departments.... Protecting our highways, my ass... Increasing your revenue stream by using our publicly paid officials as your lackeys. Gieco (or however you spell it) can bite my ass. (/rant)

I think most "REAL" drivers would agree that the police would be better utilized actually enforcing SAFETY issues than Insurance revenue collections. Speed by itself IS NOT Dangerous. Speeding in an unsafe manner IS. Hell, driving 50MPH UNDER the flow of traffic is more dangerous, but I don't see the HP doing any enforcement of that... (Seemingly prevalent in Florida.... home of 90+year old drivers)...

Nor do you see them going after unsafe merges, morons swerving all over the road talking on cell phones....

Gee, I guess I closed that rant too soon...

Unfortunately, It's far easier to ticket people for speeding, less chance of a "judgement" call in court being overturned, easily demonstratable (although I leave my GPS in the car on no matter WHERE or HOW fast I'm going... It's nice to have a millisecond record of exactly how fast you were going when they say you were doing X... Plus, it's more accurate that my speedometer, and I'd dare say... Most Radar guns.)... and when it comes down to it, as a generallization, the speed cops are lazy.

(I can say that with a fair amount of reference.. My father was a MP for 26 years, and some of our best friends have been either Military police or local law enforcement.) It is unfortunate, as there are good cops out there.... It just seems that (in their opinion, and mine) they are definitely the minority.

As an aside to this, which I find hillarious as HELL, the town my parents live in has had a most unusual policy for the last 4 years... NO ONE with a county plate is stopped within the city limits for traffic violations or littering. The moment you step out of the city limits, you're fair game, and they patrol hard. But it seems that the Mayor made a decree in order to get the votes for re-election (only the city residents can vote for him... )

Because that increases safety...

You should see some of the odd ones we have in the UK. They have a large roundabout in the centre (with about a 40 metre diameter) with 6 smaller roundabouts spaced around the outside.

You have to treat each small roundabout as an individual one, meaning that you can progress around the central roundabout either clockwise or anti-clockwise.

I have never worked out the benefit of them, and I only know of two in the whole of the UK.

__
Unit serial number 47 (was 330 in the queue)...

ESPECIALLY from certain Insurance agencies that make a Great deal of publicity over "Protecting our highways" by giving away Radar and lidar guns to Police departments....

I hadn't heard about that one. Now that's pretty slimy.

From the Hitchhiker's Guide, by way of the Trillian web site:

Trillian spoke up: "You know they've reintroduced the death penalty for insurance company directors?"
"Really?" said Arthur. "No I didn't. For what offence?"
Trillian frowned. "What do you mean, offence?"

___________
Tony Fabris

That is such a classic line.

What are we going to do without Mr Adams ?

__
Unit serial number 47 (was 330 in the queue)...

And I would hate to see an eight lane freeway populated by British drivers...

...the two outside lanes would be occupied by people aggressively tailgating, with brake lights cascading down the line of trafffic every two seconds...

...in the mean time I would be siting in the inside lane doing exactly the same speed as the other crazies anyway...

The other five lanes would be completely empty!

__
Unit serial number 47 (was 330 in the queue)...

GEICO (think it used to, or still may, stand for Government Employees Insurance Co.) has also spent a fair amount of time lobbying for radar detector prohibition, now the law in 4-5 states, I think. That's one reason I've never requested a quote from them.

Jim

You know what would really get me? (Hope no HP buyers are reading this...) If it was a Japanese or a German car. Like a VW or a Honda or a Toyota. So far, the one common denominator is that the government vehicles always come from the USA.

This will most likely never happen. The government almost always buys products made in the USA. I found about this from someone who works for Agilent. The government is switching to their main competitor because Agilent is moving production outside the US.

I may be giving the Washington State Patrol more credit than they deserve, but I've since been told that this particular, humbling spot north of the army firing range is Yakima County's #2 or #3 revenue source (WA counties get a cut of the take of WSP tickets inside their county), and part of me had to admire just how totally I'd been had. You drive uphill with the ridge blocking the view to the southwest, across a couple of ravines that give you some brief views (rather that give the spotter a view), then pass under a county bridge (the starting mark for the trap) right out into a full exposure to the southwest (now heading downhill, dang). At 80, you're over the 1/4-mile trap in 8-10 seconds even if you wise up and start slowing.

Pity the gent who had been slipstreaming us (in an Aerostar van of all things), didn't slow, and got clocked at ~100.

Parts of the Grapevine in southern CA seem like a good setup for this kind of thing.

Jim

Ouch, I still haven't seen pickups in CA. There's a lot of Broncos, but no actual pickups. That'd get me for sure, as I deliberately skip over pickups when scanning.

Haven't you been around 580 near Vasco Rd. I've often seen one parked in the center lane of the overpass, just watching the traffic go by. I see it there in the mornings because that's my exit. I seem to remember it being tan w/white marked doors.

--Glenn

Truth is, if I'd slammed on the brakes when I first saw him behind me, he wouldn't have been able to pace me in time and wouldn't have had a good clocking. Depending on the cop, they usually won't write you up unless they're sure the clocking is ironclad.

Sounds like what happened to me once. I was going 65 in 45 mph zone (it'd have been safe at 80 - three lanes, perfectly straight, middle of the night so no other cars around) when I saw somebody catching up with me from behind. Couldn't tell if it is a cop but slowed down anyway, without touching the breaks. By the time he caught up I was only 5 mph over the limit. He pulled me over but I got away with a warning. He must have seen me fly past him earlier but I guess he didn't get an accurate clocking.

Borislav

I'm not saying it's wrong to write tickets to speeders. The HP does a good job of keeping the peace on our freeways, and they perform a necessary function. I wouldn't have things any other way. The fact that they keep me on my toes is a good thing.

I don't know, Tony. The amount of mental processing you devote to identifying HP cars could be better spend on looking out for traffic dangers... It obviously does help a bit by forcing you to look around you at all, but I doubt that taking it to extremes is a good thing.

Borislav

The amount of mental processing you devote to identifying HP cars could be better spend on looking out for traffic dangers... It obviously does help a bit by forcing you to look around you at all, but I doubt that taking it to extremes is a good thing.

It's not like that at all. The fact that I'm keeping my eyes open and looking all around at all traffic means that I'm paying MORE attention to what's going on around me.

Somebody back me up on this one.

___________
Tony Fabris

: Instead of slowing to 55, I thought that slamming on the brakes would have been too guilty-looking

My trick: Use the e-brake to slow down at that point. It isn't great for the brake. but you can gradually slow down without turning on your brake lights thus alerting the officer that you are, in fact, trying to slow down to avoid a ticket. Of course, this only works effeciently with those who have the pull-up emergency brake, rather than the kind under the dash that you apply with your foot, or pull out a handle to engage.

(O|||||O)

Returning somewhat to the original question... I used to have a Valentine-1, and while using it I never got a ticket. However, the damn thing would be going off all the time, even in the "advanced logic" mode. Then, when I once valet parked my car, the valet stole the V-1. Grrr... Since then, I haven't replaced it. I've found, instead, that my car is a more quiet, calm place without the damn V-1 going off all the time.

Instead, my current strategy is that on local roads that I know well, I know all the places that I tend to see cops and just drive slower there. And, when I'm somewhere I don't know, I try to keep my speed close to the "average" speed of drivers around me. Consider I-45 from Houston to Dallas. The speed limit is 70mph. The average speed is probably 85mph, and if you only go 85, you'll have 18-wheelers blasting past you. I've done this drive both with and without the V-1. In practice, with enough road traffic, somebody way up front tends to see the cop and will slow down and you'll be thinking "why is the traffic slowing down here?" until a mile later you see the speed trap. The V-1 had much less value than I would have thought.

Admittedly, I had a lot more fun driving on the autobahn when I was in Germany where I could focus my attention purely on safety issues rather than scanning for police. When I'm back home, I've just forced myself to generally drive slower as I get no joy in fighting speeding tickets.

My trick: Use the e-brake to slow down at that point.

Oh yeah, I'm very familiar with that trick, and in fact, that's what I did. My mistake was that I e-braked gently to 65 instead of slamming full on the brakes and slowing to 55. I allowed him to clock me at 65, thinking, "He won't write me for 65". Well, he did. He knew I'd slowed to 65 from something higher than 65, and attempted to get me to admit to what speed I was going. I admitted nothing, and simply said, "I didn't think I was going that fast." So he wrote me for what he clocked me.

If I'd done the exact same actions except chosen to slow to 55 instead of 65, it would have been different: He would have pulled me over and tried to get me to admit my speed. But without a solid clocking on me, he would have been forced to either let me off with a warning, or take his chances that I'd challenge the ticket. I think this particular guy was smart and wouldn't have written me without an ironclad clocking.

Oh by the way, another advantage of using the e-brake (besides the lack of tail lights) is that your car doesn't "nose dive". Dead giveaway.

Kids don't try this at home: You should never do the e-brake trick in a panic. It should only be done gently. If you lock up the rear wheels, you could spin the car. Not a good thing.

___________
Tony Fabris

Related trick: in a manual transmission, just downshift and let the engine slow down your car. This must be done smoothly to prevent your car's nose from diving, making you look guilty. Of course, an officer can state, clearly, that he saw your brake lights go on. He can't state quite as clearly that he saw your car dip forward...

Blimey, do your cops in USA take speeding more seriously than the UK? I guess so.

Down our motorways at least, ive seen marked police cars a few times, but ive never "seen" or been pulled over buy an unmarked on a motorway. The general consensus with most of them from what i can gather, is they dont care if your speeding down an empty motorway, but they do care if its a dual carriageway with blind corners etc.

I was stuck behind a car doing the limit (30) down some normal roads around Lightwater, got to a dual carriageway, rinsed it up to 100. I noticed the car i had over taken was following me a bit closely.. "i bet its a police car" i think, so i slow down.
It was of course an undercover car. fortunately the officers (2 of them, you need 2 in the uk i think) explained to me they did not have a calibrated speedo, and they didnt have any camera equipment so it wouldnt stand up in court that i was doing "around 90" (which would have been a 3 month ban for me..). However, im begining to doubt they didnt have a calibrated speedometer, as from what i can gather all police cars, especialy traffic cops, do.

It was an undercover blue 2.2 litre vauxhall vectra if your wondering. Nowadays i look for the undercover traffic cop cars by seeing if theyre fastish cars that are relatively cheap, and have lots of aerials on their roof.
Theres also lots of Subaru Imprezzas around as undercover traffic cars now. Scary. You can tell by the aerials.

The worst is driving down the A3 towards london. Its layed out as a motorway (3 lanes, 70 limit), but they treat it like a plain 3 laned road, and 80% of my journeys down it involve a police car.
Then theres all the speed cameras they like to put up. Highly irritating. Initialy all the revenue went to the government, but now they are planning / starting to give the revenue to the police force involved so they are trying to put as many up as possible in hidden places to make money out of it. Before, they couldnt afford to fill them with film, but now they can make a profit, so they do.
Scum.

I think i got done doing about 70 in a 60 on a camera on wednesday.. i hope there was no film in it.

When i can afford myself GT3 / Ferrari, i will afford to have james bond style changing liscence plates at the back. Push a button, have plates saying "HAR HAR" or something, and zoom past the cameras.. trace that. Push button again to return to normal plates when your out of the camera area.

Hmm..

There is some company here that gets a list of everybody that got a ticket from a camera, either intersection or speed. Then they sell the person a plastic polarized cover that goes over the plate. You can't see the plate unless you are directly behind it, and the glare is really bad, so the flash can't see it.

You wouldn't believe how many of those things are around...

Of course, an officer can state, clearly, that he saw your brake lights go on. He can't state quite as clearly that he saw your car dip forward...

The braking thing isn't important if he writes you up. If you challenge the ticket in court, the only thing that counts is whether or not he clocked you at the speed he wrote you for.

The only reason I don't want to look like I'm slamming on my brakes is because I don't want to piss the cop off. If he thinks I've been driving in an unsafe manner (as opposed to just speeding), he's more likely to want to throw the book at me. Basically, if he sees me slamming on my brakes, it will reduce my chances of talking my way out of the ticket.

In any case, if you think it will avoid a clocking, never hesitate to apply maximum braking. That's the lesson I learned.

___________
Tony Fabris

Then theres all the speed cameras . . .


Yeah, you can't talk you way out with a camera, though some have found interesting alternative solutions (don't try this at home . . . .)






Henno
mk2 6 nr 6

In reply to:

---

In any case, if you think it will avoid a clocking, never hesitate to apply maximum braking. That's the lesson I learned.

---

This is third hand and probably unreliable, but I'm told that radar guns do a "plausibility check" by comparing multiple fixes.

I'm told that if the target is changing speed too quickly, the gun assumes it's a bogus reading and won't report a speed. 0.5G was mentioned as a threshold.

I know I can exceed 0.5G braking quite safely in my cars...so braking hard might even save you from radar.

-Zandr

-Zandr
Mk.I #0150 10GB
RioCar #010101243 10GB (96GB here I come...)

Airplanes are also very ironclad.

Not in CA, they're not. California has some very interesting laws on the books:

40801.  No peace officer or other person shall use a speed trap in

arresting, or participating or assisting in the arrest of, any person

for any alleged violation of this code nor shall any speed trap be

used in securing evidence as to the speed of any vehicle for the

purpose of an arrest or prosecution under this code.



40802.  (a) A "speed trap" is either of the following:

   (1) A particular section of a highway measured as to distance and

with boundaries marked, designated, or otherwise determined in order

that the speed of a vehicle may be calculated by securing the time it

takes the vehicle to travel the known distance.

   (2) A particular section of a highway with a prima facie speed

limit that is provided by this code or by local ordinance under

subparagraph (A) of paragraph (2) of subdivision (a) of Section

22352, or established under Section 22354, 22357, 22358, or 22358.3,

if that prima facie speed limit is not justified by an engineering

and traffic survey conducted within five years prior to the date of

the alleged violation, and enforcement of the speed limit involves

the use of radar or any other electronic device that measures the

speed of moving objects.  This paragraph does not apply to a local

street, road, or school zone.

There's lots of language following 40802 (a) (2) that defines local roads, training requirements for use of radar, &c. And 40803 and up say that speed trap evidence is inadmissible in court, witnesses testifying on the basis of speed traps are incompetent, &c.

40802 (b) can be useful for beating a radar ticket. But it's 40802 (a) (1) that's interesting here.

Basically, what this means is that in CA, even aircraft have to pace you. That's why you see Cessnas flying low and parallel to the road, rather than orbiting at a higher altitude with a stopwatch like you do in other states.

On twisty roads, they don't have a chance. Otherwise, there's a fair amount of room to argue that the aircraft cut corners, &c. Note that since winds aloft can't be determined with any great precision, they have to time themselves against ground objects. (I suppose they could use GPS) Obviously, aircraft will work pretty well on I-5.

Of course, IANAL, YMMV, and YGMGOE.

-Zandr
Mk.I #0150 10GB
RioCar #010101243 10GB (96GB here I come...)

But US drivers aren't accustomed to roundabouts....I have a friend that works in an office building next to the roundabout, and it surprises and confuses everyone who tries it for the first time.

There's one neighborhood in Santa Cruz where the locals were trying to cut down on thru traffic. When the speed bumps didn't slow people down, they added roundabouts. (a round island in the center of what was a 4-way intersection)

Had the opposite effect on me...I love the slaloms.



-Zandr
Mk.I #0150 10GB
RioCar #010101243 10GB (96GB here I come...)

It's not like that at all. The fact that I'm keeping my eyes open and looking all around at all traffic means that I'm paying MORE attention to what's going on around me.

Somebody back me up on this one.

I'll back you up.

You're right, though I'd argue that you probably spend more time watching your mirrors than would be ideal for safety.

Some interesting statistics here:

Our favorite radar-buying insurance company commisioned a study to prove that radar detectors are evil. They compared the collision rates of drivers who had purchased radar detectors with the general population, obviously hoping to show that anyone who owned a radar detector was a menace to society.

Result? Detector owners had 30-40% lower collision rates than the general population.

Another study looked at relative speeds and discovered that collision rates were lowest for cars that were travelling 2-3mph faster than the average for a given road. I think the conclusion here is driving your mirrors is a bad thing. (It only gets me in trouble at the track, that's for sure. )

Continuing the counterintuitive trend, a friend of mine is tracking the DMV records of students that attend high-performance driving schools (schools at tracks). He's seeing a ~90% reduction in collisions compared to the general population. Maybe we should stop giving out drivers licenses in crackerjack boxes?

Rather than replying again and again to this thread, I think it's just time to plug the National Motorists Association, which I think of as the driver's equivalent of the EFF. (And what AAA used to be, before they sold out and became an insurance company.)

-Zandr
Mk.I #0150 10GB
RioCar #010101243 10GB (96GB here I come...)

Your point is a very good one. There's a price to be paid for having all that sensitivity. I have an older detector that I did not bother rewiring into the new wheels, and, while I've been thinking about a V-1 or other detector, I start asking if I really want to add another $400 temptation for somebody to smash my window and/or do I want yet another piece of hardware to tote to/from the car. I'm thinking no. If I parked in a secured garage my analysis might be different.

About a decade ago I was obliged to make a hasty 3-day trip from Boston to Seattle and that (admittedly older) detector went off about 200 times during the trip. I encountered precisely zero real radar traps, however. I just started leaving it off more and more (as I grew older!!).

Another angle: on the occasion of getting paced and ticketed at night a few years ago, the young WSP trooper leaned in the passenger side window, took a good long look at that detector, and wrote me up for the full boot. Having that baby up there does tend to limit the ability to feign innocence. If I install a detector, it may well be one of the overpriced hardwired units (even with their reduced effectiveness) that I would not have to haul out of the car every night (or when valet parking!) and that would not be so obvious to troopers and/or car prowlers.

I used to be a lot more commited to exceeding the speed limit by significant margins, but much of this was when a 55 MPH limit (on highway sections now posted at at a more appropriate 70) could lead you to lapse into a coma if closely observed. To Tony's point, I do think that speeding, to some extent, helps thoughtful people stay on their toes -- check overpasses, check on-ramps, look for planes, scan big, generic sedans, etc. I still do it now and again, but more and more I find it gets tiring. I've also developed a slightly more relaxed philosophy. If I get a ticket every 1-2 years, I just roll with it; I just try to save those occasions for out of state. As I told the cop in New Jersey "Hey, a ticket every year or two helps confirm that you're still alive". He laughed.

Finally, on the vehicle paranoia front, a good friend who commutes daily in Seattle on I-5 reports several sighting of WSP in a white Volvo wagon in one of their fave spots northbound under the bridge at North 145th. no idea about the "buy 'Merican" issue. Perhaps this was a seized vehicle?

Jim

Boston, where I grew up, has a lot of "rotaries", especially on the old MDC "pleasure" roads that inadverdently became main commuter arteries. Rotary users there are divided into two rough groupings: 1) Unwitting innocents who somehow (correctly) believe that vehicles (theirs) already in the rotary have the right of way but who have too high a degree of social sensitivity to enforce their right of way. and 2) well-honed sociopaths who know that vehicles (theirs) entering the rotary do *not* have the right of way but who consistently manage to obtain it by strictly avoiding any semblance of eye contact with drivers in Group 1.

Jim

To Tony's point, I do think that speeding, to some extent, helps thoughtful people stay on their toes -- check overpasses, check on-ramps, look for planes, scan big, generic sedans, etc.

I still don't understand how checking overpasses and looking for planes helps traffic safety.

Borislav

I still don't understand how checking overpasses and looking for planes helps traffic safety.

It's not that, specifically.

My point is: In order to speed and not get caught, you need to be on your toes at all times. You can't take your eyes off the road, you must constantly scan your surroundings, and you must be sensitive to the movements of all the vehicles around you. You also have to drive with the focus on where you're going to be instead of where you are, i.e., keeping your attention on the area of road up ahead of you.

What's dangerous is someone who speeds and doesn't do those things. Or heck, even someone who drives the speed limit and doesn't do those things. That's why I'm glad there's a Highway Patrol.

And to scan for airplanes, you don't stick your head out the window and stare straight up. Airplanes will generally be seen with your attention focused on the road ahead of you. They fly very low over the highway. You should be able to see them without taking your eyes off the road.

Checking onramps is a good thing for safety, anyway, if you're in the right lane. It allows merges to happen more safely.

___________
Tony Fabris

They must be in Hemel Hempstead and High Wycombe ?

MK2 Red S/n 949

Hemel is one of them, but to be honest I couldn't remember where the other one was...

__
Unit serial number 47 (was 330 in the queue)...

Damn! I just got my first ticket (ever, I'm only 19) three hours ago. I'm a good, safe driver, and I'm usually the carefully alert speeder that Tony just described. Tonight, however, I was thinking about how I had just forgotten something back from where I had left, and it was 2 am and no one was on the road, save one policeman in a dark side street waiting for me. The ticket was for 48 in a 35 (mph), which should be $145 + insurance, but I can probably get out of it by taking 6 hours of defensive driving (plus court costs). I think this might have been a situation when a radar gun would have saved me, unless the policeman was using the instant-on type.

What’s the worst about it is that I'm pretty convinced that this small city routinely sets ups speed traps as a revenue producing stream that preys on motorists passing thorough. That kind of pisses me off. Oh well.

- John

30 GB - Mk2a (Rio Car) - BLUE

You can't take your eyes off the road, you must constantly scan your surroundings, and you must be sensitive to the movements of all the vehicles around you. You also have to drive with the focus on where you're going to be instead of where you are, i.e., keeping your attention on the area of road up ahead of you.

Greetings!

Isn't this one of the reasons that the empeg has the feature of not booting into a visual mode??? So that you don't smash into a tree or another car?

Paul G.
SN# 090000587 (96GB Smoke)

Isn't this one of the reasons that the empeg has the feature of not booting into a visual mode??? So that you don't smash into a tree or another car?

Nice try, but you can't get us back on topic that easily.


___________
Tony Fabris

What’s the worst about it is that I'm pretty convinced that this small city routinely sets ups speed traps as a revenue producing stream that preys on motorists passing thorough. That kind of pisses me off. Oh well.

Road Tax.

I hate the way they set up traps just after the speed changes on the freeway from 100kph to 90 kph. usually the trap is just 200m past the sign so unless you're familiar with the road you'e likely get caught.
I got done easter last year coming into a town on the Pacific Hwy. There are these strage signs with '60 ahead' in the 100 zone and then 200m later they have the 60 sign. I didn't see the 60 and got caught, $180 + six points.
But there is a way to beat the system. I was able to over pay the fine and they send you the refund of the balance. I have the check filed somewhere and havent lost the points as the accounting program doesn't subtract the points until your balance returns to $0.

So far so good

Murray 06000047
I don't think, therefore I am not.

holy crap! that's damn near genius, i'm going to have to give that a shot, overpaying a tad, but given my recent luck it won't work. I got pulled over AGAIN by CHP yesterday, this time for having tinted front windows and no front plate. I got a "fix-it" ticket. I saw him way a head of time and was going 40 in a 45mph, so you can't imagine my preparedness to be very pissed when he pulled me over after i passed him. The front plate thing, well, i was just waiting for that one, no biggy, but now i have to strip my tinting. Does anyone have any tips on how to get around this fix it ticket? It says it can be signed by a cop OR an authorized something something... hrmm. My new method of driving is going to be: if you see a cop, stay 500 feet behind them no matter how slow they are going.


|| loren.cox ||

In reply to:

---

Kids don't try this at home: You should never do the e-brake trick in a panic. It should only be done gently. If you lock up the rear wheels, you could spin the car. Not a good thing.

---

But gosh it's fun in an empty parking lot...

Dave Clark
Austin, Texas
12g Blue MK2
S/N was 80000329 -> now 90000970

Related trick: in a manual transmission, just downshift and let the engine slow down your car. This must be done smoothly to prevent your car's nose from diving, making you look guilty.

That's what double-clutching is for ...

________
Donato
MkII/Blue/40GB/080000565

I wouldn't get your hopes up vis-a-vis overpayment having a protective effect. This topic triggered a mild parietal lobe (or some other lobe, I can't seem to remember) urban legend seizure, and indeed I found:

http://www.snopes2.com/autos/law/ticket.htm

Jim

are you calling Muzza a lier!? heheheh.


|| loren.cox ||

"are you calling Muzza a lier!? heheheh"

Never in life. I just don't want him to have a heart attack when his next insurance bill arrives. (And don't misplace that refund check!!!)

Jim

Gotta love the internet, keeping us up-to-date on Urban Legends.

___________
Tony Fabris

"are you calling Muzza a lier!? heheheh"

Never in life. I just don't want him to have a heart attack when his next insurance bill arrives. (And don't misplace that refund check!!!)



This is not urban legend! It HAPPEND to ME!

15 months and still driving. hopefully by the time that it catches up with me, the other points I aquired will have rolled off my licence.
There has been no adjustment to my insurance amunt either.

What erks me is that they set the traps in these tiny towns which you usually slow down for anyway (OK I didn't that time but we weren't in the town), but on the open stretches of road where you can see for 3 Km of straight and could easily get to 190kph, there is nothing. Ever.
grumph

Murray 06000047
I don't think, therefore I am not.

Muzza,

Trust me, I believe you (and may all of our luck hold -- I've had 4 tickets in 12 years and managed to avoid any negative insurance impact so far...). What the page I referenced asserts is that there have been claims made about overpayment regarding systems in multiple countries and it questions any cause-and-effect relationship. Essentially, if you took a random sample of 10,000 people with tickets, then put them in a 2x2 "overpaid/no overpayment" x "insurance hike/no hike" grid, could overpaying be shown to have a protective effect statistically? Or is the fact that some folks never see the points/hike a fluke?

OOT: Years ago in WA, you could check a 3rd box on the ticket and go before a magistrate to plead stupidity and beg for mercy; if your acting skills were up to snuff, you could get a 6-month probation after which the ticket would disappear *forever* (so have I had 4 tickets, or maybe 5, or...?). Unfortunately, the state supreme court decided that this was an overextension of magisterial authority, so now the best that 3rd box will do is perhaps get your fine reduced. The good old days, sigh...

Jim
(trying to do my part to help set relevant records for OT thread length...)

"and may all of our luck hold -- I've had 4 tickets in 12 years and managed to avoid any negative insurance impact
so far...)"

Insurance comapanies usually only increase your rates after a ticket if you call and ask how much your rate is going to go up. They don't check up on your dmv records because that costs them money. They depend on people to call in and tell them.

Sean

I'm told that if the target is changing speed too quickly, the gun assumes it's a bogus reading

I think that was true of older style guns, but the new ones can lock onto you so quickly that this may be a futile maneuver. Don't know for sure, though...

I got stopped two days ago, 54 in a 40 zone. I would guess I was doing an honest 55 when the V-1 went off. I have faster than average reflexes, and I am quite sure I took 10MPH off that 55 speed in less than one second from the time the V-1 sounded. (The trooper was using instant on radar). Almost certainly I was decelerating hard within 1/2 second of the time it sounded. His total on-time was no more than 1.5 seconds. By the time I went by him (we were headed towards each other) he already had his flashers on and was preparing to U-turn to come after me.

I must say that my feelings of invinciblity with my Valentine One have been considerably shaken! That instant-on radar is deadly quick. FWIW, he was between 1/4 and 1/2 mile away when he triggered it. He must have had an urgent radio call or something because he let me off with a warning. I would have liked to chat with him for a while about the capabilities of his radar system... but somehow it just didn't seem like the right time to do so.

tanstaafl.

"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

Any UK people using one of these :

http://www.morpheous.co.uk

or these :

http://www.gpstrapalert.com

and would care to comment ?

- --
Rod, UK Mk2 64gig Red S/No.341 2xDell RioReceiver

I have seen some pretty stealthy ones recently

Best speeding enforcement work I ever saw was in California in the mid 1970's. That was back in the days when CHP were not allowed (by state statute) to use radar.

I was driving down I-5 in a Porsche 911, 10--15 MPH over the speed limit. Up ahead is an overpass, with a CHP car parked right in the middle, roof flashers silhouetted against the sky, visible literally miles away. Of course, I slow down like a good boy and drive under him, and watch my mirrors to make sure he doesn't come down and follow me. A mile down the road, the highway goes around a turn, the trooper is still up on the overpass as it goes out of sight in my mirror. I'm safe, speed back up to 80 or whatever it was I had been doing.

Five miles later I see a dark colored car coming up on me fast -- he's still a mile or so behind me, no way he could be pacing me, so I slow back down just in case... Imagine my surprise when the flashers light up. It's my buddy from the overpass, telling me I've been running 75 in a 55 zone.

"How do you know?", I ask him. He grins, and tells me how it works...

He saw the Porsche go by under him, and said to himself, "I'll betcha he's gonna be going about 75 mph once he feels safe." He let me go around the corner, then from a mile behind me he starts driving at 75 MPH. Pretty soon on a straight stretch of road, he sees me go under an overpass or over a bridge or some other easily discernible landmark. He takes an odometer reading. "Look, the Porsche is 1.2 miles ahead of me." Three miles later, he gets another odometer reading. "Look, the Porsche is now 1.4 miles ahead of me. I've been running steady at 75, he's gaining ground on me. Time to turn on the flashers."

I don't think he wrote me up, don't remember after all this time. But he was so good, I wouldn't have complained if he had. That was honest work that I could respect!

tanstaafl.

"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

The Detector itself IS visible from outside the car in daylight, but you have to look for it, as it's mounted VERY high

Right. Mine is mounted in the very top leftmost corner of the windshield. From outside the car, you can't see it from the front unless you crouch down becasue the top five inches of the windshield are very heavily tinted (the radar/laser sensors are just barely below the tinting so the sensitivity is not affected) and you can't see it from the side because the view is blocked by the windshield post. Rear sensitivity is unimpeded because it "looks" over my shoulder to the rear. The power lead is fed inside the windshield post, under the headliner, directly into the V-1, with maybe an inch of wire actually exposed.

tanstaafl.

"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

Some interesting statistics here:

Does anybody remember the column in Car and Driver magazine a couple months back... one of their staff did a bit of research about the types of vehicles most likely to be involved in rollover accidents because the NHTSA in its infinite wisdom had determined that if you put vehicles on a tilt-table and tip them, the ones with the higher center of gravity (i.e., SUVs) fell over first. God only knows how many millions of dollars they spent coming up with this incredible scientific breakthrough.

So then C&D magazine went to the "real world" and started examining actual accident statistics. And guess what? SUVs were less likely to be involved in rollover accidents than Corvettes, on an accident/mileage basis.

Then they looked further--- and found that two door vehicles of any kind were more likely to have rollover accidents than four door vehicles -- even when the two-door/four-door vehicles were variants on the same basic model. And station wagon variants of the same car were enormously less likely to have rollovers.

The conclusion reached by the magazine was that the driver was a far more important determining factor than the type of vehicle -- that people who bought two door cars drove more agressively than drivers of 4-door vehicles.

But did that stop the NHTSA from promoting SUVs as dangerous and more likely to be involved in a rollover? Of course not. You can always lie with statistics, and the insurance companies are fully cognizant of this.

tanstaafl.

"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

Sean: "Insurance comapanies usually only increase your rates after a ticket if you call and ask how much your rate is going to go up. They don't check up on your dmv records because that costs them money. They depend on people to call in and tell them."

In the U.S. I think this varies quite a bit from state to state. Where I'm at in Washington, insurance companies rely on self-confession on renewal forms up to a point, and they don't get any reports from out of state so far as I am aware. However, I have friends in Massachusetts who have been hammered by automatic reporting of points from DMV to insurance companies, and New Jersey also sounds this way based on some conversations I had while working on a project there. I think some of the east coast states even share point/violation data with other states in the region. From Muzza's post, it sounds like CA is *supposed* to work this way. I suppose it could also vary by the aggressiveness of the particular insurance company.

Jim

"By the time I went by him (we were headed towards each other) he already had his flashers on and was preparing to U-turn to come after me."

I bet there was a second trooper on the Grassy Knoll.

Seriously, it's my sense that one of the main reasons police issue warnings is that their bust isn't of a quality that they want to spend time defending in court. I don't know enough about any radar to doubt the potential deadliness of new instant-on units, but maybe his display *really* read "55MPH (+/- 65 MPM, 92 percent confidence interval)".

OOOT: I am reminded of an old physics teacher's defense for running a red light: "Well, officer, I was going so fast the yellow light looked green..."

Jim

You are right, im sure it varies from state to state. I'm in texas, and we don't have a points system on our licenses. Maybe the high risk insurers are more aggressive about checking dmv records.

Sean

"Well, officer, I was going so fast the yellow light looked green..."

I actually remember there was a limerick along those lines. Don't remember it exactly, though. Went something like:

The renowned astrophysicist, Gene
had the fastest machine on the scene.
He drove faster than light,
and with no cops in sight,
he'd blueshift the red lights to green.



___________
Tony Fabris

Mmm, in the UK they have to take the lowest speed measured in a period/distance (I think on the road it's 1/4 of a mile), which means braking sharply may well mean that you don't get a fine/points, even though they know you were going faster simply because they can't take the peak speed.

They'll still stop you and use excessive amounts of sarcasm though.

Hugo
(who once got off with 125 in a 50. Whoops... well, I had no idea it was a police car following me - it was very dark - and I'd just had the turbo fitted to the MX5 and, well, he couldn't keep up... (good job, he'd only got up to 100 trying to follow me) after that point I started driving a bit slower)

Greetings!

Is that KPH or MPH?

Paul G.
SN# 090000587 (96GB Smoke)

Is that KPH or MPH?


I'd sure as hell HOPE it was mph... A cop that couldn't exceed 100 kph would be driving what???? A yugo?

And a MX5 with forced air injection should certainly be able to top 125 kph without breaking a sweat.

MPH. You run out of gearing at about 130 on the MX5.

Hugo

In reply to:

---

Seriously, it's my sense that one of the main reasons police issue warnings is that their bust isn't of a quality that they want to spend time defending in court

---

So that got me to thinking... should i challenge this ticket. I'm fairly certain he didn't pace me, 'cause he pulled from the side of the road and had a light on me pretty quick. Has anyone had any experience showing up in court and fighting it? or is it not worth the time and effort, and possibly detrimental?

*the young one seeks advice*


|| loren.cox ||

To challenge the ticket, you need to be sure of what method the cop was using to clock your vehicle, and you need to be pretty sure it wasn't solid. Also, it's important that you didn't admit your speed to the cop after he pulled you over (admission of guilt doesn't look good for you in court).

The only way to get the ticket thrown out is to make the cop look like an ass for ticketing you without proof. If he's got any kind of a solid clocking (pace, radar, time-trap, airplane), then the best you can hope for is a reduced fine from a lenient judge.

Other things to hope for:

- Cop doesn't show up to defend the ticket (happens sometimes, especially if he has to take the day off work to defend the ticket). In this case, you automatically win.

- Cop used an inappropriate clocking method for that stretch of road (for instance, if he used radar, then a traffic survey must have been completed for that road within the last 5 years or the ticket is invalid).

- If he used radar, hope that the gun wasn't calibrated and/or he doesn't have the paperwork to prove it was calibrated. This one's unlikely, but you can hope.

Whenever you get pulled over, you've essentially got two choices:

1) Don't admit anything, expecting to challenge the ticket in court. Do this if you don't think he clocked you solidly. If he tries to get you to admit your speed, simply say, "I don't believe I was going that fast." Don't lie, and don't say you didn't know how fast you were going (that's BS and will piss him off more).

Depending on the cop, you might be able to convince him to drop the ticket and let you off with a warning. If he didn't get a solid clocking on you, he might be talking to you just to "feel you out" and see if you'll admit to a speed. In that case, you can gently and politely (without threatening) imply that you don't think he's got any proof and it won't stand up in court. Some cops will just drop it right there. Others will call your bluff, write you up, and say "see you in court."

2) Fess up, admit your speed, apologize, and hope the cop will be nice. If you think he's got you dead-to-rights, but you were driving politely and you're not acting like a jerk, he might just decide to be nice to you.

This second thing might not work too well, for you, Loren, as your Rice Rocket won't impress an HP officer.

___________
Tony Fabris

Especially when he sees that your passenger is playing Gran Turismo 3 while writing you the ticket!!

This second thing might not work too well, for you, Loren, as your Rice Rocket won't impress an HP officer.

Thats one of the reasons I love my '94 Grand Prix Sedan. Cops tend to look at it and keep looking past it. I've been thinking about getting a WRX, but that stands out quite a bit more than the 'family mobile'. Maybe I'll just wait for the Evo to be released in the states

I have friends in Massachusetts who have been hammered by automatic reporting of points from DMV to insurance companies

How does this work? The department of motor vehicles does not know who is providing the driver's insurance. I mean, it could be Allstate or Geico or Joe's Shoe Repair and Insurance Emporium. So how do they tell my insurance company that I have transgressed?

tanstaafl.

"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

Thats one of the reasons I love my '94 Grand Prix Sedan. Cops tend to look at it and keep looking past it.

And my situation is just the opposite. The cops take one look at my eight-year-old Ford Taurus station wagon and they just know a high performance car like that is likely to be in violation of local ordinances. And then, of course, the organized car theft rings are continuously monitoring the location of my car, hoping to find it unprotected and unsecured so they can make off with it -- why, they'd pass up a Mercedes or a BMW in a heartbeat if they thought they could get their hands on my station wagon! I tell you, it's not always a bed of roses being on the bleeding edge of high performance automotive technology!

tanstaafl.

"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

"How does this work? The department of motor vehicles does not know who is providing the driver's insurance. I mean, it could be Allstate or Geico or Joe's Shoe Repair and Insurance Emporium. So how do they tell my insurance company that I have transgressed?" --- tanstaafl.



Well, I dunno. I think the insurance companies get to dip into DMV records. Luckily for denizens of the Unofficial Empeg BBS (who are no doubt losing buttloads of sleep over this!) yours truly is at this moment in Massachusetts/Taxachusetts and is planning on having dinner tomorrow night with the very same lead-footed victim of the Massachusetts State Police whose insurance premiums were (IF I remember correctly) pumped up by his alacritous transgressions....

Jim

Tim: "Thats one of the reasons I love my '94 Grand Prix Sedan. Cops tend to look at it and keep looking past it. I've been thinking about getting a WRX, but that stands out quite a bit more than the 'family mobile'. Maybe I'll just wait for the Evo to be released in the states"

I know that smiley means you're kidding about a *stealthy* EVO! Those 14-foot high spoilers do make it easy for John Law, Old Bill et al to pick you out of a crowd. So far my choice of an old-fart generic silver WRX wagon seems to be working. Two months almost and not even a written warning!

Jim

Well, I dunno. I think the insurance companies get to dip into DMV records.

I wonder... There might be some privacy issues involved with that.

I'm on pretty good terms with my insurance agent (5 cars insured, no moving violations in 20 years, one claim for a cracked windshield in the last 10 years) and tomorrow I'll give him a call and find out how this works. Since he doesn't make any money from me unless I am insured by him, it is not in his best interests to raise my rates and make me go somewhere else for my insurance. The parent company may feel otherwise.

Hmmm...

tanstaafl.

"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

So how do they tell my insurance company that I have transgressed?

I think it's the other way around. I think the insurance companies query the DMV. Not sure about this, but it seems logical. If so, they probably don't do it at frequent intervals, hence the UL about overpayment.

___________
Tony Fabris

In Australia, (as far as I know, in Victoria, anyway) you increased insurance premiums aren't the big problem when you start clocking up points. You lose your driver's license (one month per 4 points) once you reach 12 points. I think that equates to getting caught

• speeding by more than 15km/h or
  
• running a red light

four times in a three year period.

I believe this was what muzza was concerned about!

Richard.

How does this work? The department of motor vehicles does not know who is providing the driver's insurance. I mean, it could be Allstate or Geico or Joe's Shoe Repair and Insurance Emporium. So how do they tell my insurance company that I have transgressed?

Here in CA the DMV asks for proof of insurance when renewing your car registration. The piece of paper I'm required to give them has all the information - insurance company, agent contact details, policy number, etc.

Borislav

I should point out it wasn't a built up area and it was 2.30am with not a soul about...

Hugo
(feeling guilty)

Dang, I have to remember not to be using "<" in posts unless I want to start adding HTML. My bracketed comment of: [IGNORANCE ALERT: The poster really doesn't know anything about this!] disappeared as did my [NEOLOGISM ALERT!] with respect to "alacritous". I try to remain aware of when I may be making up information and/or words. My doctor says it is a very important step for me to take!

Jim

tomorrow I'll give him a call and find out how this works.

OK, here's the scoop. When the policy comes up for renewal, the insurance company checks with DMV to see if there are any violations for that particular driver. Low risk drivers with a long history of good driving (say old people driving station wagons )may only get checked every couple of years. Others that are considered higher risk (people in their 20's or 30's driving silver WRXs, for example ) may get checked even more often than their policy renewals.

There is a movement afoot for legislation to make DMV records less accessible, but I don't know what will come of that.

tanstaafl.

"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

Yup. (I knew I wasn't that brain-dead! Or at least I thought I wasn't....maybe...I'm not sure...) I had dinner with my rehabilitated automotive crime-spree friend Friday eve (had some great striped bass in Fairhaven, MA) and he gave me his spin on the system in Massachusetts. The complex system is called "merit rating" or SDIP and you can find a bit of infor at: http://www.state.ma.us/eops/ar97/mrb.htm Anyhow, the state does maintain a master database of violations that insurance companies are obliged to tap into so that the increase rates for some and adjust rates downward in the form of adjustment rebates for those calmer, boring, unviolate drivers.

Jim

...for those calmer, boring, unviolate drivers.

ie. volvo drivers with hats, gloves, oversized glases and small dogs in handbags. You know how you are.

Murray 06000047
I don't think, therefore I am not.

Careful, Muzza -- I think tanstaafl has a Volvo and a small dog!

Jim

As long as he doesn't keep the small dog in his handbag while driving with hat and gloves and oversized glasses he doesn't fit in the catagory!

I knew I'd have to be really specific here!

Murray 06000047
ust increasing my post count

As long as he doesn't keep the small dog in his handbag while driving with hat and gloves and oversized glasses...

Oh, I see you've met him, then?

___________
Tony Fabris

Careful, Muzza -- I think tanstaafl has a Volvo and a small dog!

Hey-- watch it! I am highly offended here. I'll have you know that my station wagon is a Taurus, not one of those boxy-looking Volvos!

And my handbag is much too small to put a dog (even a small one) into!



tanstaafl.

"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

And my handbag is much too small to put a dog (even a small one) into!

Yeah, there's barely enough room for the empeg in that carrying case.

___________
Tony Fabris

Hey-- watch it! I am highly offended here. I'll have you know that my station wagon is a Taurus, not one of those boxy-looking Volvos!

Now you watch it - what are you implying about the looks of boxy Volvos?

I don't have a dog or oversized glasses but I do regularly get comments about my "purse" (aka empeg carrying case). I don't care as long as my empeg is protected from the elements.

Borislav

as long as my empeg is protected from the elements

...and people are talking about taking a soldering iron to the display board for a backlighting hardware hack...

Paul G.
SN# 090000587 (96GB Smoke)