Yes, tragedy has struck my household. After more than eight years of faithful service, my beloved computer died several weeks ago. It was not an unexpected passing, the previous video problem was a harbinger of bad things to come, and they came.

So now I have a new computer. Well, mostly new... the power supply, the CD burner, a couple of hard drives, some cables etc. are carried over from the old machine.

Kingston 120GB SSD for the C:> drive. A pair of 2TB WD hard drives. 4.1GHz 6-core AMD processor, 8GB RAM. On-The-Motherboard video and audio with more capability than my previous standalone cards. Windows 8.1 operating system which I hate of course because it's different from what I'm used to so it can't be any good. 21 seconds from power-on to Excel.

I haven't put the Kill-a-Watt on it yet, but at first glance it seems to be consuming less than half the power of the old computer. However... there appears to be an incompatibility between my APC brand UPS and either the new computer or with Windows 8.1.

My UPS has outlets labelled "Master" and "Controlled by Master". The computer's power supply is plugged into the "Master", and a power strip feeding a bunch of other things is plugged into the "Controlled by Master" outlet. This outlet turns off when the computer is turned off. At least, it is supposed to do so, and for the previous eight years it did just that. The new computer does not turn off that outlet when it is shut down. So now, when I turn off the computer, my scanner, my monitor, my desk lamp, my sound system, and my USB hubs all stay powered up. I have gone so far as to turn off the switch on the power supply and even unplug the computer, but the UPS continues to feed power to the half dozen or so accessories that are connected to the "Controlled by Master" outlet, along with the dozen or so items connected through the USB hubs.

Although the USB hubs are powered by the UPS, I think the hubs may be a similar but separate issue. When the computer was at the computer shop without benefit of the UPS, there was no way to power down the USB ports short of unplugging the computer from the wall.

I don't know by what mechanism the UPS "knows" when the computer shuts down, possibly something that senses current draw. My guess is that the problem is either with the UPS itself (unlikely, it was working properly with the old computer); with the new computer hardware (is it still drawing current even when shut down?); or does the UPS rely not on current draw but from some signal that is missing from the Windows 8.1 operating system?

Any ideas?

tanstaafl.

Make and model of UPS?

My first suspicion is that the electromechanical relay (or the circuit that drives it) within the UPS that switches the power to the 'Controlled by Master' outlet has failed in the 'powered on' position.

Did you previously have a separate communications cable connecting the old computer to the UPS? Serial or USB?

Is there a setting on the UPS to activate the 'controlled by master' feature?

It is possible that the new computer has one of the types of power supplies, where, when the computer is turned off, there is still a little bit of electronics that are "live" that are waiting for your "signal to power on" via the soft power button.

Some history:

Old computers had actual full giant AC switches which fully cut off the mains by actually interrupting the main power wires directly. Throw the switch and there is literally no AC power reaching it. Actual full physical switches where the main AC power goes through the switch.

New computers have power supplies which are driven off of a small temporary-contact soft button which controls a piece of firmware that interprets how long you pressed the switch. A short press will send a software command to the PC that can do things like tell the computer to hibernate or wake up from hibernate on a short press, whereas a long press will tell it to actually shut down the power.

All of the above requires that the power supply still needs to draw a bit of power, even when it's turned off. There's a small bit of circuitry that interprets those button presses.

That's probably why the "controller" AC plug is still staying on. It's sensing that your PC is still "on" to a very small degree.

Question:

When I've seen those "master/slave" AC plugs (I use one in my electric guitar rack in fact), there's usually a sensitivity adjustment somewhere, a small recessed potentiometer that you adjust with a small flathead screwdriver. Does your have that? Maybe you just need to adjust it upwards.

Nope. It's something more esoteric than that... Operator Stupidity.

While brushing the dust off the UPS to find the model number to answer K447's question, I uncovered a label next to an unobtrusive button on the top of the unit. The label said: "Enable Master." When I pressed the button (press and hold, actually) a green LED light lit up, and guess what... the Master/Controlled-by-Master feature immediately began working.

Well, at least I didn't have the paper upside down in the printer!

This does not answer the question of why the USB ports remain "hot" when the computer is shut down. I had this problem back in 2006 or 2007 on the old computer, and Tony solved it for me back then. Unfortunately, I don't remember what the solution was.

Oh, wait. I found it.

Similar problem, but not the same. As long as the power supply on the computer is switched ON, the USB ports are hot. At least, the one USB port on the computer that I am plugged into is hot. That port feeds a 7-port hub, one of whose outputs daisy chains to a second 7-port hub. Both of these hubs light up with pretty LEDs when they are up and running, and they stay lit up unless I move the computer hutch away from the wall and reach around behind it and physically turn off the computer's power supply switch. Then the LEDs go out. This behavior is the same whether the USB hubs' wall wart is plugged into the UPS or not.

It may be that the only thing actually powered up in the USB system is the LEDs on the hubs. My Kindle and my iPod both show no connection (either charging or data) when the computer is shut down. I dunno... it's a mystery to me.

tanstaafl.

Some modern computers when turned 'off' specifically maintain power on some or all USB ports to allow using those ports to charge USB stuff (cell phones, etc). It also enables USB keyboards with a Power button to actually turn on the computer.

In some cases there is a mainboard jumper or BIOS setting to enable/disable this persistent USB power feature.

Many USB hubs will power themselves from the upstream USB port (your new computer) if they are denied direct wall wart power. The amount of power available to devices downstream from the hub is greatly limited, of course. Hence no charging of tablets.

In every motherboard I've seen with always-on USB, there's a utility (in with the other crapware) that allows you to configure this feature. Granted, I've only had 3 new motherboards in the last 10 years...

I just had a look at the BIOS setup... there must be two dozen acronyms and abbreviations I have no idea what they mean, quite possibly one of them had to do with that. There certainly wasn't anything that simply said "Turn off persistent USB Power".

I am not comfortable experimenting with BIOS settings that I don't understand!

FWIW, on startup the screen flashes "AMD Gigabyte Ultra Durable", and the BIOS setup screen is quite pretty and well laid out, even if it is incomprehensible to me.

tanstaafl.

Does the main board have documentation?

For what it's worth, in my new computer rig (MacPro, giant 32" Sharp 4K monitor, LaCie "5big" Thunderbolt disk array, Teac class-D desktop speaker amp), I decided to leave the computer on 24/7. This allows CrashPlan to run my backups, but Apple's specs say that it's using very little power. I'm sure the GPUs are completely off, etc. The hard drives definitely spin down when not in use. The monitor turns itself off. The speaker amp is *supposed* to power itself down, but doesn't seem very smart about it. At least class D amps are very power efficient. My scanner similarly stays on but, I at least hope it draws very little current when idle.

Also for what it's worth, I got rid of the UPS I kept for my computer. The poor reliability of the APC UPS was causing more failures than our mains power. Now I've just got a surge suppressor / power strip from Belkin, and there's also a whole-house surge suppressor I had put in last year as well. I figure if the power goes out, there's always switching to my phone.

[quThe shop that assembled the computer for me didn't give me any, but since the computer was scratch-built, I am sure there must have been something. The advantage of having it built locally is that I can just carry it into their shop, put it down on their counter all hot and greasy, and say "You built it, you sold it to me, now fix it!".

They're actually really good guys, I usually have to twist their arms a little bit to get them to take more than a pittance in payment. Typical service fee for something like this (open up the BIOS, check the documentation, find and change a setting) would run maybe 50 pesos, about $4 USD, except that in this case they probably won't charge anything.

I think they like me there, because even though by the standards of this BBS I am a clueless ignoramus, I am vastly more knowledgeable than most of the people who come through their doors. Makes me easier to work with.

OK, update: I found that changing the ErP setting in the BIOS fixed the problem. [ErP refers to Energy related Products directive]. The default setting is "Disabled". When Enabled, the USB ports do indeed turn off when the computer is shut down.

However... there may be an undesirable side effect. I need to re-test this, but the one shutdown I did with ErP Enabled seemed to turn off the whole computer... permanently. It wouldn't power back up. After ten minutes of fiddling with the power switch, the power supply switch, plugging and unplugging the A/C power cord, suddenly there was a relay click from inside the computer and it came back up.

Since the only way I can get into the BIOS is to turn the computer off again... well, if you don't hear from me for a few days you'll know what happened.

tanstaafl.

Be careful with any settings that mention EFI or BIOS directly. Looks like your new system may support both natively.

BIOS = The old 80s era way to boot a PC, designed for the IBM PC and cloned by everyone.

EFI/UEFI = Newer 2000 era way to boot a PC, designed for a more modern era.

Flipping this to the other mode (not sure which mode the shop set it as) will likely render Windows unbootable. The basic layout of the disk (MBR/GPT), and the way an OS has to boot is entirely different between the two.

Oh, yes. Trust me I don't play with BIOS settings randomly.

The ONLY thing I have done in the BIOS was to Enable the ErP setting, and we saw how well that worked out. It took me another 15 minutes to get the computer to power up (not boot, just start spinning hard drives and fans) and the only way I could make it happen was to (a) unplug the power cord; (b) turn the power supply switch off; (c) plug in the power cord and listen for the relay click; (d) turn the power supply switch back on; (e) press the start button on the front of the case. This procedure worked twice, the second time allowing me into the BIOS to disable the ErP setting (that is the default) and now it is working almost normally. Strangely enough, I now get a "No Video" message during the bootup at just about the time the full-screen "Durable Gigabyte" logo screen used to appear, but no longer does so.

Maybe I should go into Control Panel -> Power Settings and click on the "Default Settings" button, then do the same in the BIOS. I think there is a restore defaults setting there... or is there?

tanstaafl.

"Enable" the ErP thing. That should cause the USB ports to power down completely.

EDIT: Oh, I see you've already discovered that. Good!
Except it shouldn't give the grief that it does (mine doesn't).

Hunt for BIOS updates?

I reversed the last of the changes I made, and that problem has now gone away.

The change? This AMD motherboard keeps the USB3 ports active so that users can charge external devices up to three amps (!) while the computer is shut down. I thought, "Aha! Maybe the USB2 ports don't have this feature," so I moved my cable that feeds my USB hubs to a USB2 port, only to find that the USB2 ports also stay active after shutdown.

This morning I remembered moving that cable, and put it back into the original USB3 port, and the bootup sequence returned to its original display.

So, after hours of testing and fiddling around, I am now back to exactly where I started. Sigh...

Oh, wait -- I just discovered another power-related anomaly. I just assumed that the LEDs on my keyboard (programmable, full of electronics) stayed on because they were like the LEDs on all the rest of the my USB stuff... until I realized that my keyboard is PS2. So apparently my PS2 port stays hot on shutdown as well. I am becoming significantly disenchanted with this motherboard! It will be no contest if I have to make a choice between keeping this motherboard or preserving my virtually irreplaceable AnyKey keyboard!

tanstaafl.

Surely the low hassle solution is just to turn the PC off at the wall when it is "off".

I was thinking something similar. My own method is to have everything plugged into a couple of those Belkin Conserve strips with the remote control. I have one remote tuned to both strips, and once I've shut everything down I just toggle that switch to shut off power to everything but my computer. It's not the one-step process you had before, Doug, but at least it's an easy two.

The real issue is that ErP didn't work when Doug tried it. It solves all of these BIOS-created problems, by making "power off" mean "99.9% powered-off" again.

I use a very recent GigaByte mobo here with that feature, and my power-on button does still work fine.

Try it again?
Look for BIOS updates that might fix the bug?
RMA the defective mobo?

That would be true... except that reaching the power source at the wall is anything but low hassle. It involves serious moving of furniture and a very awkward reach. And then, when it's all shut down, I have no telephone (VOIP or local), no internet for other computers on the network, no WiFi, no cable TV... I suppose I could do some rearranging with multiple power strips and the like, but I'd rather that the damn thing just turn off like it's supposed to when I do the Shutdown routine.

tanstaafl.

Three useful approaches. I'll try them in that order.

Actually, I may just take the computer back to the computer store and make it their problem.

tanstaafl.

A lot (most?) PSU's also have a small switch on the back which completely turns off the power. If that's also present on your PC, and you can reach it, that might also be an option.

There's the problem. Not reachable without significant (and heavy) furniture moving involving power tools. (Really! I have my floor protector mat fastened to the computer hutch to keep it from sliding around when I move my chair.)

The computer is now at the computer shop, and I am typing this on SWMBO's iMac. I'll probably be traumatized for days.

I followed Mark's advice and re-enabled ErP in the BIOS, with the end result that I bricked the computer. My first thought, and the shop concurs, is that I have a wonky power supply. The PS came from my old computer and is eight years old and perhaps isn't compatible with the new always-on motherboards. I noticed that when trying to get it to start with ErP enabled, the LEDs on my USB hubs would flicker and go out, over and over, as though the PS were trying to start the computer but just coudn't make it. Of course since it now won't start, I can't disable the ErP.

I'll know more on Monday, possibly today if they can get the 650-Watt power supply from Guadalajara in time to install/test it.

tanstaafl.

I often chuckle at the huge numbers the PC enthusiast world banters about.

I presume the new power supply will be quite adequate for your computer, but somehow I doubt the entire machine uses even half that much power, even at peak load.

Maybe he has three top of the line GPUs in there

This MacWorld test was interesting:

http://www.macworld.com/article/2146360/lab-tested-the-mac-pro-daisy-chain-challenge.html

1 MacPro, 36 external hard drives, four monitors. Total peak power draw, 865 watts.

Things certainly have got more efficient in recent years.

I'm sure you are right, but I'd rather have more capacity than I need than be right on the edge of having not enough.

And it was the old power supply that failed. Possibly enabling ErP increased the startup load just enough to push it over the edge. A slight, lingering scent of burnt insulation was a clue. Or, maybe after eight years it was just tired and quit. Anyway, the computer now works quite well with the new power supply.

Of course, it wasn't that simple. I got the computer back, it worked fine, I could read email and look at files... but when I tried to type, I found I had no PS2, no keyboard. Interestingly, the keyboard worked just fine during bootup, I could go into the BIOS and change things, but as soon as Windows 8.1 started, no more keyboard.

If you Google for "Windows 8.1 PS2 keyboard not working" you'll get 172,000 hits. It is not an unusual problem, and I think I have an idea about what happened. I believe that the computer shop tested the computer after the power supply transplant using a USB keyboard. This article gives some insight about what that did...

I was mistaken in an earlier post in this thread when I said I had two 2TB drives. I have one 2TB drive and two 1TB drives, plus the SSD. The computer shop brought all of my old hard drives over into the new machine, not just the 2TB drive. So maybe a 600W power supply isn't totally overkill, particularly when I start firing up USB peripherals.

Anyway, the new computer now seems to be working the way I want it to. There are a few things about Windows 8.1 I don't care for, but I'll get used to them and probably grow to love them in the end.

tanstaafl.

Well, USB ports deliver a maximum of 5 watts or less, per port (original style USB ports were only 2.5 watts per port, but the newer stuff has higher max ratings). Most USB devices are spec'ed to only need the smaller 2.5 watts since that was a common upper limit (and if they needed more they used those three headed USB cables).

Big hard drives need maybe 10 watts per drive? Depends on the model, of course. 35 watts for all four drives?

Plus your main board, CPU, video card, etc. If you add it all up I suspect the total for your machine will be one side or the other of 100 actual watts DC power consumption.

All that said, PC power supplies are often sold with power ratings on the box label that exceed the realistic in-service capacities.

Just found this via Google. Plug in your stuff, see what it says