Hey all. I'm having Apple envy. A buddy of mine was visiting this weekend, and he showed me the Home app on his iPhone. I was impressed with the layout and design (naturally, it looked very pretty), and I particularly liked how it handled scene creation. There were some minor UI things that bugged me, and there's some automations that aren't possible (yet) that I can do with my system, but overall it got me VERY tempted to migrate to that system, which would even mean switching to the dark side and getting an iPhone. That's how much I like my home automation!

Does anyone here use Homekit? Tom, I assume you have at least a few devices. What kind of setup do you have? I'm very interested in how you all are using it.

After a bunch of research into the platform, I've noticed several obstacles to implementing it into my own home. The primary one is that there is absolutely no migration path from a 100% ZWave-based system to a Homekit system. Homekit doesn't talk to any of the ZWave controllers because they don't have the authentication chip in them. Hopefully there'll be some sort of change in that today, but for now it means an outlay of several thousand dollars to replace all the devices we currently have.

The other problem is the size of our current network. I've felt for a while now that modern home automation solutions are designed by and for San Francisco apartment dwellers My research seems to support this idea. The two lighting solutions for Homekit are Lutron Caseta (light switches and lamp modules), and Hue bulbs. I can't put Hue everywhere because I'd go over the 50 device limit by, I don't know, about 300 bulbs. Lutron gets me closer, but only for light switches (I have about 35 switches now and want to add more). Or, I can get some of the new iDevices switches and lamp modules which presumably wouldn't have as much of a limit, but cost twice as much.

So yeah I'll be checking on the announcements today. Hopefully there will be some solution for us old ZWave people.

That's absolutely insane. Inside my house, I have a total of 25 light bulbs, controlled by seven switches. Two more switches control seven more bulbs outside on the deck.

tanstaafl.

Haha yes, it probably is insane. And I don't have what's considered a very large house for my area. I have about 36 switches, with about 5 of those being 3-way switches.

I pretty off on the number of bulbs. If I count from memory, it's actually 150 bulbs. But even if there weren't a 50 device limit, I'd still be spending somewhere between $3800 and $4500 just for bulbs.

That's why for most cases, I prefer switches to bulb replacements. If I use switches for anything that controls 4 or more bulbs instead of changing the bulbs themselves, then I only need 13 switches to control 76 bulbs. That's around $2200 vs $520! Still a big investment, but clearly much more affordable. It also reduces the number of devices on the system.

But yes, I realize I have a lot of bulbs and switches already. One of the crazier instances is my basement, which the former owner finished and absolutely filled with recessed lights. Between two rooms there are 20 bulbs on three switches (10 on one).

Are you sure? I have a couple of Z-Wave Modules to switch the lights in my garden via a Raspberry Pi running OpenHAB. There is a HomeKit Addon which I think will expose the system to your iOS devices if you set it up correctly. I haven't personally played with it but it sounds promising.

$100 for a Raspberry Pi sure beats $4000 in light bulbs.

Hmmm...I might have to look into that. I hadn't considered it before because I'm not fond of their app design. But I'm not going to use the app so that might be a good way to go.

Looking at their guides, I see there's a way to put it on Synology, though I have to load Java. What I can't see in their instructions for any platform is what the system uses to actually communicate with the ZWave devices. I have the Aeon Labs stick, which seems to be used by a lot of these kinds of systems...

There's a docker image on the hub, I prefer running stuff like this in docker containers because it's easy to back up, update etc.

I saw that too. Might go that way.

But I also might ditch those plans. OpenHAB looks like a TON of work! Holy cow! The instructions seem very helpful, but the number of steps I need to go through are incredible, and then I have to create a ton of my own code for all my devices and the most basic stuff like merely representing the locations of my devices.

If I didn't have so much other stuff going on I might think about this, but right now there's no chance...

My other option is to pick up a new Vera and install an add-on for Homekit.

[edit]It seems like an especially large amount of work because I have so many devices.[/edit]

Ok, I'm playing with OpenHAB and it's alright so far. The UI definitely has a long way to go, though. Adding the number of devices I have is an extremely tedious process:

- go to things
- scroll down to the next device whose channel I need to add, remembering what the last one I worked on was
- click on device
- enable the channel (usually only one)
- click the x and get taken back to the top of the list, but don't scroll yet because the list will refresh
- scroll to the next one

I had to repeat this over 70 times. And then I had to go and name them all. From what I've read, I'm worried about the next process, where I create rules and scenes.

Ok, maybe it's just because I've been out of habit with any type of coding for years now, or maybe it's just because I don't have the time, but getting OpenHAB to work is insanity.

I have most of my devices set up, but several are not. One isn't in the database, despite being very similar to a very popular light switch. Others are remote controls that are pretty essential to getting my wife to be ok with the system. Those take an extraordinary amount of work to get functioning.

Lastly, I finally got around to looking at what's involved in getting HomeKit functionality, and it's...daunting. Again, a lot of it is because I have a big network of devices, but a lot of it is just that it's a lot of work. Between running my business, getting ready for a gigantic yard sale, taking care of a 3 year old, and preparing for another baby, this just isn't a path I think I can take. Hopefully something else comes along...

Mmmm.. yard sale.. Mmmm... !!!

When, Where!

Haha! Well, if you're swinging by DC we're about 40 minutes northwest It'll be a bunch of old electronics, baby clothes, and other random stuff, but it should be pretty good! Hopefully I'll have everything ready for next Saturday. It's the first time in about 10 years that I've done a big inventory of the stuff I've hauled through the last few moves, and it's time for stuff to GO!

Have you checked out Home Assistant? I've been using a Vera for years and switched to Home Assistant a few months ago. I haven't gotten my minimotes to work yet, but other than that it's been pretty solid and there are tons of built in integrations. Using their newer hass.io installer is easy and clean but it's harder to tinker with than hassbian. Hass.io runs the homebridge addon in a container on the same raspberry pi pretty trivially, which is nice.

When I was getting started with home assistant I just ran it in a VM and used HA's vera integration for all devices. Then I could slowly cut over the Hue controller, the envisalink alarm interface and the zwave devices directly using a zstick. Once it was working I put it all on a raspberry pi and unplugged the vera.

I'll think about it. Frankly, the minimotes are one of the biggest concerns here. My wife really prefers to use those instead of taking out a phone, unlocking it, launching the app, and finding the scene she needs.

Instead, when we walk into our son's room, there's a minimote on the dresser with four scenes programmed into the buttons (though I could have 8).

We have five of these remotes around the house, plus a wired scene controller in the kitchen.

I've been trying to figure out whether there's a ZWave controller that supports minimotes AND makes them visible to HomeKit for initiating scenes like I do now.

So far, the controller that has handled minimotes the best has been Vera, where I could manually assign 8 scenes to a minimote and change them at any time. Everything else seems to treat the minimote as a controller that controls devices directly, which is useless to me.

I do know what you mean, for my 'toy' purposes where I want a couple of lights to turn on and off themselves it is OK, but anything more than that I can see how it is cumbersome.

It is all a bit silly really because I should just use a photocell...

HomeKit helped me start with some basic home automation, and I’ve not pushed it forward too much. Handful of bulbs, and some experiments with the color changing ones for notifications. I am pondering some HomeKit electrical outlet switches in the coming year, but haven’t looked at any yet.

It’s mostly built around Hue for me, and for a while I used the native Hue app for some basic automations including the geofencing. HomeKit was handy for building the connection to Siri and control via the Watch.

I did also get a HomeKit enabled deadbolt, that doesn’t look like a smart lock or change the exterior of the existing lock at all, handy for apartment living.

The Home app has been getting more use indirectly, via the control center button, and for granting access to guests. With both the door lock and light control, I can host a guest and not need to give them a key or leave mine. All without any setup beyond some basic stuff, and having an Apple TV around always acting as a secure way for the other devices to control my front door lock over the internet.

The Hue Tap is pretty handy, a 4 button kinetic switch that recently got full HomeKit support. All 4 buttons can be set to different HomeKit actions and aren’t limited to Hue anymore.

I got a new AC unit in SEP. It includes some geofencing capability where it can go into 'away' mode (raise or lower the set temperature) if all the registered devices are outside the geofence.

The only problem with it is that the minimum size for the geofence is a 2 mile radius. I work 1.5 miles from home, so it never kicks in.

https://9to5mac.com/2017/12/07/homekit-vulnerability/

Oops. Glad it can be mostly fixed server side, and ultimately is being fixed fast without needing to swap any hardware. It helps that they set such a high security bar in the first place compared to most other home automation setups even if it hindered the initial HomeKit adoption.

I forgot to update this thread.

I've gone a little crazy...

I now have 24 Hue bulbs*, 8 Hue dimmer switches, 2 Hue Taps, 2 Hue motion sensors, 17 Lutron Caseta dimmer switches (with 8 pico remotes in 3-way switch locations), and one iHome plugin switch.

And believe it or not, I still have a ways to go. I still have 10 zwave dimmer switches to swap out, and a couple plugin switches. I also want to replace my zwave door lock and my Nest thermostat that will never get Homekit support.

So far my experience has been VERY positive. The reaction time of HomeKit over ZWave - at least in my house - is night and day. I have four scenes that control every light on the main floor of my house (about 18 switches and three lamps), and with ZWave it would take upwards of 30 seconds to finish the scene. HomeKit takes about 1 second.

From the moment I set up my first Hue bulb and saw that I could change course and change its dim state in the middle of running a previous command, I was blown away. It's SO FAST.

As I mentioned in a previous post, one of the biggest concerns was replacing the Aeon Labs Minimotes. My wife really wanted a physical remote to choose scenes, and I really like having them too. I still prefer the size of the minimotes and the fact that they can be programmed for 8 scenes, but I don't miss them. I was fortunate that the week before I planned to start swapping for HomeKit devices, Hue enabled their remotes for HomeKit support, and they work extremely well, allowing a greater customization to the switches than I had before (I can have one button run multiple scenes and device commands).

I initially thought I'd like the Hue Tap remote, but I'm not fond of the feel of it. I get that the feel of the button press comes from the very cool kinetic recharge feature, but I prefer the dimmers. The dimmers also release from their magnetic wall plates much more easily, which is good when I'm grabbing one to change scenes in my son's room at night when I'm putting him to bed. I'll press the reading mode button when I'm ready, and he likes to push the nightlight button when I leave.


Now, here are some of the negative impressions I've had of it so far:

- It's not that smart. There are definitely some more advanced programming options missing, especially conditions. With my zwave controller, for example, I had it set up to turn on the three lamps on my main floor at sunset as a security measure. But I also had it set so that if any of those lights were already turned on (for example, because I already set a scene manually), the scene won't run and change the dim levels on those lights when I don't want them to. Home can't do any of this.

- Home has shockingly bad occupancy controls. I initially placed a Caseta switch and pico remote in my laundry room along with a Hue Motion Sensor. I wanted to be sure we could turn on the light manually in case the sensor didn't fire. Unfortunately, the Home app is only capable of a "when motion is not detected" command. What it SHOULD be is a "when motion is not detected for __ minutes" command. What happened is that we would bend over to take clothes out of the dryer, and because the sensor couldn't see us moving, the lights would turn out. My wife wasn't pleased. So I had to remove the switch and install a Hue bulb. Now occupancy is controlled by the Hue app which DOES have the correct command.

- HomeKit can be flaky sometimes. I've had several times where I'll try to run a scene and it won't go. Then I'll look at the Home app and see the Hue devices are listed as "Updating." But I'll be able to control them from the Hue app. I've also had this very annoying problem where I'll add a Hue dimmer switch, assign scenes to the buttons, and when I press the buttons they register in the Home app...but nothing will happen. It won't be until I restart my Apple TV (HomeKit hub) that the dimmer will start actually running the scenes. This took me a long time to figure out and Apple support wasn't any help.

- Device support is still limited. Apple has a decent list on their site, and my priority is lighting, which is all covered, but the list is still pretty small (though growing).

- It bothers me that HomeKit is only usable on iOS. The devices I'm using have Android apps too, but they can only be tied together in iOS.

- Siri control is fantastic, but the Home app on the Apple Watch takes an eternity to initialize. It's weird. I can use Siri on the watch in seconds to run a scene, but when I load the app I can't press any of the buttons for at least 15-20 seconds. So I don't use it.



Wishlist:

- better occupancy rules
- better guest management with access control and selection of approved devices
- Logitech Harmony support (this one's on Logitech though)
- I REALLY want Hue to make a 2700K version of their light strip. The color one is just too freaking expensive.

I'll add more if I think of anything, but that's my experience so far. I'm thrilled with it, and hope it only improves.

*because of the sheer number of bulbs I needed, I opted for the plain white 2700K bulbs. They can be found for as little as $12.50 a piece.

An update:

Overall, my HomeKit system is functioning really well. It's super fast (especially in comparison to my ZWave network), and everything - for the most part - just works.

There was a couple days there where I gave my Hue hub a static IP address and that completely screwed up the system for some weird reason, but a couple days and many Apple TV restarts later it finally cleared up.

I've now replaced almost every ZWave device I have. I still have six switches, my front door lock, and an outdoor light switch (for landscape lights) left to replace. I then plan on adding the MyQ hub for my garage doors, and I'm thinking of replacing my Nest thermostat for the Ecobee. The Nest can only work with Homebridge, and at this point it doesn't make much sense to set up Homebridge for one device. Besides, I could probably sell my Nest for almost as much as an Ecobee 3 costs. They don't look as nice and they're not as great to control, but they'll work with HomeKit.

Has anyone else here dabbled in HomeKit?

I've got an ecobee and I've been really happy with it. I couldn't care less how it looks as it's installed in the wiring closet and the remote sensors are the only thing we ever see. The remote sensors are also great if you house doesn't heat up evenly. My "morning" mode only take the bedroom sensor into account, while the other times of day average all the sensors that have detected motion recently.

I'm intrigued by the slowness you describe with zwave. Mine always seem quite responsive, though I don't have complicated scenes with lots of devices. I'm wondering if your controller was more of an issue than zwave?

Oh...you must tell me all about this. It's a HUGE issue in our house, where the basement can be 66 when the master bedroom is 78. How much control do you have over what is the primary sensor and when things switch around?

For example, I'd be perfectly happy if the actual thermostat was NEVER used in determining the temperature of the house. It's in the least-used room of our home, there's never anyone in it, and the conditions in that room are unique to the house. It's the reason that the occupancy sensing feature of our Nest has been turned off since day one.


Your guess is as good as mine. My speed issues with ZWave were five years old and persisted through 5 different controllers in two locations of the house, and through the swapping of almost every light switch. Half of the light switches in my house have now been swapped out THREE TIMES since I moved in 5 years ago. From toggle switch to Intermatic ZWave to Linear ZWave to Lutron Caseta.

I've used USB controllers that allowed me to see network maps of my devices, showing no more than two hops between any of them, and most of them were one hop. Heck, I had a dozen devices within 10 feet of my controllers at any time, and yet everything was still excruciatingly slow. I even upgraded from an analog baby monitor to a digital one, to minimize the interference on the ZWave frequency.

The only devices that stayed the same throughout my ZWave time were the lamp dimmer modules. I'm not saying those couldn't be the culprit, but they were well made GE modules and they were the only ones that had worked well for me when I first started using ZWave products around 7 years ago in my old condo.

Who knows, maybe if I'd removed all my ZWave stuff and completely replaced it with new ZWave stuff, it would have performed just as good as my HomeKit network or better. I don't know. But I LOVE the Home app, despite its flaws. I can't express how easy it is to make changes to my system on the fly. I've tried 5 different controllers with at least 7 different interfaces, and the Home app is darn close to exactly what I've always wanted out of a home automation controller UI.

The multiple sensors with an Ecobee will probably be great for you. You set up a schedule and each period is associated with a "comfort setting". That comfort setting sets target temperatures, if you're usually home or usually away, and which sensors you want the thermostat to take into account in that comfort setting. My "wake up" setting only takes into account the bedroom sensor. All other settings take into account the bedroom, kitchen and living room sensors. None of the settings take into account the thermostat's built in sensor.

I'll try and not measure the speed of my zwave network. It's never bothered me before, and I certainly don't want to start noticing and have to swap out all my switches.

Fantastic! That sounds like it's exactly what I want! So do you think it pretty much averages out the temperatures and aims for that?

If I had $5K to fritter away, I might consider one of those networked air register systems that give you faux zones in every room, while balancing the system to not harm your blower. But I don't have that money


Chances are it isn't nearly as bad as mine was. It was terrible. We almost always had moments of "ugh, when are these lights going to turn on?" and then 15 seconds later they mostly would. It was completely unreliable.

That's not to say HomeKit is perfect and never fails, but it's FAR more reliable and about 1000x faster than MY zwave network was.

Yup, it considers the current temperature in the house to be the average of every sensor in that comfort setting that has detected motion, or all of them if none have detected motion.

Oh wow, and it has motion as another factor. This sounds perfect. I might be doing this VERY soon... Thanks so much for the info.

Of course, now I want an Ecobee and about 5 sensors

Which model do you have? I'm interested in any of the ones that DON'T have Alexa built in. I don't want or need that.

Question:

Lets say one room gets unusually hot in our house sometimes. Like 79-80 when our bedroom is 73. If the thermostat is set to 73, does that mean that - if the two rooms theoretically dropped at the same rate with no heat applied - the heater won't kick in until the room is 75 and the bedroom is 69?

Seems like I need to fix the air distribution in our house first

Yup, that's exactly how it works. It can't fix extreme imbalances. I've read about an integration with Keen vents, but never tried it. I'm using an original ecobee3 with a total of three sensors.