Rob, Just thought you might be interested to see how far I've got with designing a new Fascia. It's far from finished but it's a start. You'll notice I've designed a new Knob and the buttons (at the moment) are round. I've designed it with ease & quickness of manufacture in mind as we can't machine from a Solid Model yet at work (we currently just have 2-1/2d CAM software - something I'm trying to get changed!!). I'm happy to collaborate on a design if you want, or you may want to do the whole thing yourself. I'll leave it up to you. Of course, with your CAM software we could do something a bit more adventurous than my current (unfinished) design.

Oops, forgot to attach image file.

It is a Multicam SF. I know it's capabilities are way beyond CruzThs's machine, I saw the samples the guys that installed it brought along with them to show what it can do.

But sadly the boss didn't opt for the software that makes the machine do it since we don't really require it for making signs (He's a cheap bastard).

I'm going to take a look at the software Cruzths uses. Maybe I can make it work with my machine, though I'll have to do it covertly since the boss freaks out when I do anything to the computers. I think it's because since I know 100 times more about computers than he does he doesn't understand what I'm doing.

C'est la vie.

mmm, cute!

bitter? [grin] j/k

In reply to:

---

...we currently just have 2-1/2d CAM software...

---

Do you have to be Stephen Hawking to understand what a 1/2 dimension is?

I hope you dont mind some suggestions. Well, even if you do, you have to expect them if you're going to post. :)

I believe that probably the primary goal in designing a new fascia with mass appeal is to overcome problems with the stock one. I think it's fair to say most people will agree with this? For a start it might be a good idea to actually list the problems people have had with the stock MK2 part.

Next come some goals that should be present whenever designing anything (not just re-designing). Form and function for intended application.

With these things in mind, I see you have already tuned your model to overcome the problem of screen obstruction for left-handed drivers. However, there's a bit of "extreme" applied to the left side of your face that really kills the form. For a design that looks like it is trying a simplified or minimalist approach, the left opening is a little too fancy. It would look and probably function better if it were a rounder edge and not wavy.

For simplicity in pure form, take a look at Darkstorm's pages showing his custom fascia for the MK1.

Next up is that even though you're trying to design something new to overcome problems, you're getting saddled by carrying forward limitation imposed not by the fixed layout of the player, but by external items. Namely the cap bolts that are used with the stock fascia.

If you were to source some screws with the same thread you would have a lot more options for design. You could find various lengths for the thread as well as thin and flat heads (using whatever type of driver, philips probably the easiest to find). You could then make the fascia a lot thinner which would aid tremendously in the amount of screen you could see from an angle. In making the plate thinner, you would also make the inside of the holes for the screws less deep.

This would avoid repeating a design element of the stock fascia that I am assuming was deliberate - the extruded and highlighted bolt patterns. Again, allowing you far more freedom in your own design.

These steps are are able to achieve even more freedom because of your choice to abandon the stock buttons. And this is a catch-22 in your favour. You now also have more freedom with the buttons because of the alterations to the fascia.

At some point I think I'd like to tackle doing a few layouts (I have a few ideas already). Unfortunately I don't have the time to model them in 3D. The best I can do is provide the artwork in postscript for someone else to extrude. I'd also have to take my own measurements by hand, so even though I may take all the care in the world, fine adjustments would always need to be made. Again, my goals would be as above, while also making the look fit very well with other modern (but not gawdy) head units.

Same goes for buttons. I have some interesting ideas for transparent, solid and combination buttons. I need to do more research into the casting requirements though. FOr lighting, my immediate thought would be to use surface-mounted white LEDs and then provide small coloured tabs in the buttons for modifying color. A small pcb ring with 4 LEDs to go around the rotary knob would take care of that side too.

My first project is going to be designing a rubberized exoskeleton though. A shock protector and something that will allow you to put the empeg on a countertop FLAT. Without the handle banging. Right now it always seems like a very delicate proposition to put it down. This would not eliminate the requirement for a carry bag for utmost protection, but it would protect the entire unit against bumps and bruises. Will start looking into casting steps soon (will more than likely be RTV for anything I produce myself).

Bruno

It's an M3 thread, if anyone was wondering...

Hugo

Just make sure you leave plenty of opennings in your rubberised "exoskeleton" for cooling so that your empeg doesn't cook inside it!

That's why I called it a skeleton and not a sleeve. :) The main parts to be protected are the bottom and then all the corners. There will be plenty of metal exposed.

I'll take pictures this week of a similar-concept rubberized guard I borrowed for my Nokia 8290.

Bruno

Hi Bruno,
Thanks for your (lengthy!) suggestions/criticisms. Here's my response:

In reply to:

---

I hope you dont mind some suggestions. Well, even if you do, you have to expect them if you're going to post. :)

---

No, of course I don't mind. As you say, I have to expect comment, why else would I post?

In reply to:

---

I believe that probably the primary goal in designing a new fascia with mass appeal is to overcome problems with the stock one. I think it's fair to say most people will agree with this? For a start it might be a good idea to actually list the problems people have had with the stock MK2 part.

---

I first thought about designing a machined Ali Fascia when I got my MkII over a year ago, just because it sounded like a fun thing to do, not necessarily for any mass appeal or to get over any problems with the stock Fascia. I did however think that if people wanted to subsequently use the design it would be nice for the Empeggers that drive on the Right to get a better view of the screen (as you mention).

In reply to:

---

Next come some goals that should be present whenever designing anything (not just re-designing). Form and function for intended application.

With these things in mind, I see you have already tuned your model to overcome the problem of screen obstruction for left-handed drivers. However, there's a bit of "extreme" applied to the left side of your face that really kills the form. For a design that looks like it is trying a simplified or minimalist approach, the left opening is a little too fancy. It would look and probably function better if it were a rounder edge and not wavy.

---

Hey!! there's nothing wrong with my face!!. Oh... that face, sorry . I do agree that the form of the Left side of the display window looks too fussy, I just haven't got round to cleaning it up yet. This is after all in the initial stages of design. I intend to smooth this out once I've got all of the elements present in the assembly. Once I have everything there (eg the Handle) I'll start playing with the aesthetics like the aforementioned Window & Button shapes etc.

In reply to:

---

For simplicity in pure form, take a look at Darkstorm's pages showing his custom fascia for the MK1.

---

I know of them but I don't think I've seen his Fascias for the MkI. Do you have the URL?

On the subject of minimalist design (of which I'm not a great fan); the design as it stands at the moment is not intended to be minimalist because that's how I like things, It's dictated by the limited CAM software available to me at work and even if I had access to a better CAM package I can't afford to have a relatively complex design which requires hours of machining if I'm trying to do it on the sly. The driving force behind the simple design is ease of manufacture with standard tooling, not for the attraction(?) of a minimalist design in itself. Subsequent designs (if anyone is interested enough) however will have a more complex design which would require true 3D machining. This is something that CruzThs might like to bring to the party. He may however prefer to design his own of course. I've also only just started learning Solid Modelling, so complex surfaces/features are a little way down the line.

In reply to:

---

Next up is that even though you're trying to design something new to overcome problems, you're getting saddled by carrying forward limitation imposed not by the fixed layout of the player, but by external items. Namely the cap bolts that are used with the stock fascia.

If you were to source some screws with the same thread you would have a lot more options for design. You could find various lengths for the thread as well as thin and flat heads (using whatever type of driver, philips probably the easiest to find). You could then make the fascia a lot thinner which would aid tremendously in the amount of screen you could see from an angle. In making the plate thinner, you would also make the inside of the holes for the screws less deep.

This would avoid repeating a design element of the stock fascia that I am assuming was deliberate - the extruded and highlighted bolt patterns. Again, allowing you far more freedom in your own design.

---

As I said earlier, my main reason for designing a new Fascia is that it's a bit of fun. For me there's no problem with the stock item. I don't even have the problem with not being able to see the Top Left corner of the Screen as I live in England and we of course drive on the Left. The non-inclusion of the raised areas around the Boltholes was again, to simplify machining.

I've already thought that it might be nice to have polished Stainless/Ali screws or even some kind of hidden snap-on fastening system so that there are no screws showing at all. This latter idea would have the added benefit of speeding up the swapping around of coloured Screens. A thinner fascia is a good idea, this would certainly help to improve the view for all those who drive on the other side of the road. Again, this is something I'll look at once I've got the Handle etc designed.

In reply to:

---

These steps are are able to achieve even more freedom because of your choice to abandon the stock buttons. And this is a catch-22 in your favour. You now also have more freedom with the buttons because of the alterations to the fascia.

---

My reasoning behind the redesigned buttons is (a) I can't measure the existing buttons accurately enough to replicate, (b) To machine the cutouts in the Fascia to accomodate the stock buttons would require a 3D CAM package and/or a specially ground cutter & (c) I'm also not keen on the Grey plastic of the originals so if I'm re-designing the Fascia I might as well design and make new buttons too. Again, the buttons are of a simple round design purely because of the constraints I mentioned earlier. At the moment they're there just to fill in the holes. The design as it is currently looks too much like the MkI for my liking. I would really like to have shaped buttons or even a single Joypad type design.

In reply to:

---

At some point I think I'd like to tackle doing a few layouts (I have a few ideas already). Unfortunately I don't have the time to model them in 3D. The best I can do is provide the artwork in postscript for someone else to extrude. I'd also have to take my own measurements by hand, so even though I may take all the care in the world, fine adjustments would always need to be made. Again, my goals would be as above, while also making the look fit very well with other modern (but not gawdy) head units.

---

I'm OK at functional design but IMO not great on the arty side, so some arty design input would be good. I'd have to do my best at replicating it in the CAD package. I agree, some units available now are just too OTT in the flashy design dept.

In reply to:

---

Same goes for buttons. I have some interesting ideas for transparent, solid and combination buttons. I need to do more research into the casting requirements though. FOr lighting, my immediate thought would be to use surface-mounted white LEDs and then provide small coloured tabs in the buttons for modifying color. A small pcb ring with 4 LEDs to go around the rotary knob would take care of that side too.

---

I too have thought about what materials would be best for the Buttons & Knob. There is of course polished or brushed Ali or, (I've also thought about the illuminated Button & Knob possibility) cast or machined Acrylic. Fine shot blasted Acrylic or that spray on frosting for Glass might give a nice diffused look to the light. TriColour LEDs might be fun too if someone could design some driving circuitry. Your idea of coloured inserts between the buttons & the LEDs is a good one.

In reply to:

---

My first project is going to be designing a rubberized exoskeleton though. A shock protector and something that will allow you to put the empeg on a countertop FLAT. Without the handle banging. Right now it always seems like a very delicate proposition to put it down. This would not eliminate the requirement for a carry bag for utmost protection, but it would protect the entire unit against bumps and bruises. Will start looking into casting steps soon (will more than likely be RTV for anything I produce myself).

---

Yeah I read your post about that. I know exactly the kind of thing you're talking about. Sounds like a good idea. At home I place mine on my (now otherwise unused ) CD cartridge from the car. At work I use an old Tungsten Carbide insert box to prop up the front of the player. How do you propose to make the mould? I'm sure you've thought of this but just in case you haven't; If you're going to cast using RTV Silicone you may have a problem with thick sections not curing. Unless of course you can use a two-part (if it exists) Silicone which doesn't rely on atmospheric moisture for the curing process.


So to summarise: Basically my initial design is for a one off of something that's easy for me to get made at work with the minimum of disruption to the machine shop and is within the limited capabilities of the CAM package I have available to me. This also ensures that my hole positionings etc are correct for further, more complex designs. Unfortunately I wasn't given access to the original CAD model so I need to make one to make sure it fits. Me, bitter... no never... grrrr.

Thanks again for your input. It is appreciated.

The business with the round buttons draws my attention.

On of the things I like about my Mk2a is the fact that it's very easy to find the right button in the dark because Up is a distinctive shape (convex, unlike the other buttons). I'd hate for you (or anyone) to lose that kind of help on a custom facia.

It doesn't have to be the shape of the button itself, of course. Some kind of guide on the actual face could be equally good.

Either that, or he could make it so that his design works for the off-the-shelf round translucent button caps. Then no molding would be necessary to have lighted buttons...

I share your liking of the fact that the MkII buttons are easy to identify in the dark and that is one of my concerns for the round ones I have in the design at the moment. As I said in my post, this is a work in progress and it would be very desirable to have shaped/contoured buttons. If someone else is able to do the machining or casting (we'd still need to have a mould made) maybe I could design some which are better looking and easier to identify in the dark. Of course Illuminated buttons would be great.

Hmmm... that's an idea. Maybe I'll look into that. We'd still be stuck with round buttons though. I'd really like to have some other shape. Round does look a bit home-made.

Wow this thread has changed topics.. My decision to go with the original design was for 2 reasons:

a: I have the CAD files for the original.
b: I new to 3D cad. It would take me way too long to design something else.

As I get into the project more, I do realize that the original is very complex and takes me much longer to produce a single piece than I thought. If people would rather have a custom designed facia, I'm all for that, I just don't have the time or talent to design it.

At this time I will continue with creating the aluminum version of the original facia. Cross you fingers and by the end of this weekend I will have photos of one on my empeg. Anyday now I should be receiving a shipment of various exotic woods to produce wood facias.

Rob

Matt,
Sorry I haven't replied to your post earlier. Undoubtedly, the main reason for the lack of modern machinery in Schools is that of cost. CNC machines are v. expensive and the Schools just can't afford the amount of money these things cost. OK, you can get these hobby type machines (like Rob (CruzThs) has got) which are great but I don't think really bring the excitement that a modern CNC machine ripping off loads of material or contouring at high speed can do. And you need to get the kids excited about a subject for them to become interested in it and eventually make a career out of it. Maybe the M/C tool manufacturers should donate some CNC machinery to Schools. I believe that Unigraphics & SolidWorks almost give away licences for their software to educational establishments. Now I know that's not quite the same thing but I'm sure something could be done along similar lines. After all, everything needs to be engineered & manufactured and if we aren't making it then someone else is.

Rob, I like the original design. No point in re-inventing the wheel unless it will save you time on the machine in the long run. So, I am patiently awaiting the aluminum arrival!

Hey Rob ... the wood that your getting for these fascias, would any of it happen to look similar to the feaux wood at the top of this picture?



g

Undoubtedly, the main reason for the lack of modern machinery in Schools is that of cost. CNC machines are v. expensive and the Schools just can't afford the amount of money these things cost. OK, you can get these hobby type machines (like Rob (CruzThs) has got) which are great but I don't think really bring the excitement that a modern CNC machine ripping off loads of material or contouring at high speed can do. And you need to get the kids excited about a subject for them to become interested in it and eventually make a career out of it. Maybe the M/C tool manufacturers should donate some CNC machinery to Schools

I actually had hands on experience with CNC equipment in high school (just a few years back for me), and it was all possible due to one teacher. He taught a "technology" class, and it had different modules to complete based on what you wanted to try. Each one was geared towards a different field. CNC was one, and others were things like fibre optic technology, circuit design, publishing, analog and digital video editing/producing, and several other topics. It was a great way of giving us hands on experience with the tasks we might see in jobs down the road. And to fund all of this, he allied with local places here in Colorado to get grants and such. The nice effect of this is that we got to go on field trips to places like HP, Atmel, and even NORAD to see what it was like working there and the technology involved. His constant flow of funding has kept the lab current as well. When I was there, we had a few 8088-486 machines for miscelenous tasks, and as I was in my last year, some fast Pentium machines as the main systems. Now the lab has mostly 1.5Ghz machines, new equipment for most of the modules, and some updated modules to represent the current state of things. And all of this was possible to one teacher, at a public school. I was very glad I had the opportunity to take his class, and later end up becoming the sysadmin of the lab as well. (I still maintain it today, about 8-20 hours a year and it's fine).

Wasn't one of the main reasons that the RioCar ceased production is becuase the cost of tooling up for new facias?

I wish we'd had stuff like this at our School but desktop PCs weren't around then. Some students would go to the local Polytechnic and get some time on their Mainframe. I don't know what they did 'cos I didn't know anything about it at the time. All we had in the Metalwork dept were some Lathes, a Vertical Milling Machine and other minor stuff. I wouldn't mind betting that we were rather well kitted out compared to a lot of Schools in the area though. As a sidenote I hated Games & PE so I used to go and do Metalwork or some extra curricular Chemistry instead. These and Maths were the only subjects I really liked at School.

I'm curious if a non contoured, simple flat piece of wood with cut outs for the buttons, LED, and the knob and a small beveled rectangle for the display would look like. Something incredibly plain yet classy and unstealable. Perhaps with an option to engrave the car model make in it to make it appear stock. Or perhaps, the option to engrave my name and serial number somewhere on the plate would be a nice touch. Easier to recover. Perhaps engraved right on the front... Actually that wouldn't be a bad idea to make a $25 option to engrave some words of the customer's choice on the front of the Rio original design as well for theft protection or vanity.

Calvin "rambling.."

I've been thinking about adding an engraved 'Empeg' or 'Rio' logo to my custom Fascia design.

Good idea about the logo. Have the empeg guys ever let out original illustrator artwork for the logo? I could easily reproduce it 100%, but why reinvent the wheel.

Incidentally, I took a couple of seconds to clean a bit on the stock MK2 fascia. See what you think of such a small and hopefully subtle change.

Not to be hypercritical, but the current cutaway actually includes the left side of the handle, so you'd have a weird divot there. Otherwise, it looks like it would work nicely.

I think that plastic arc was necessary to keep the knob ring stable...

re: arch.

I doubt stability would be a problem with aluminum though. :)

And the divet on the handle - notice how in the modified picture it's gone? It can be removed from the physical hande as well. Or a new handle could always be machined if thats what people want to do. Someone just mentioned machining a handle a little while ago.

Anyway, I just wante to see what the fascia would look like with just a minor tweak. I like it a lot better this way, but I would still go in and change the curvature on the left side.

I'll make up some drawings of simple-looking fascias when I have the chance. I doodled two of them earlier today, but didn't look at a real empeg to see where all the hidden goodies were - unfortunately one of them would block one of the IR sensors (too bad, because it was super clean :)

Since people were talking about buttons, I think a good idea might be to mod the current buttons to allow for lighting. Not just a simple pin hole, but a small shaped cut-out which would then be filled with some clear polymer. I'll get around to testing the idea on some scrap pieces of plastic sometime. Casting buttons at home is a PITA for more than a set or two, IMO.

Anyway, I don't even mind the stock fascia, I just thought it would be fun to draw something up.

Bruno

Since people were talking about buttons, I think a good idea might be to mod the current buttons to allow for lighting. Not just a simple pin hole, but a small shaped cut-out which would then be filled with some clear polymer.

I was thinking the same thing. It shouldn't be too hard to do. Cutting nice neat holes would be a bit fiddley, but it still shouldn't be that hard. Got any spare buttons for us to practice on Rob?