Hi

I have also sent this to bugs@ etc

Rob, this continues a recent thread on the programming topic called "Speaker Thump"

Equipment:
Rio 10 Gig player

History:
As soon as I got the player, I upgraded it to 1.03 dev. Everything seemed fine.

Problem
After a week of use at 1.03 I upgraded it again 2.0b3 and v73 of the Hijack Kernel. From this point on, whenever I killed the ignition, the player would terminate immediately with a loud thump. The unit would not go into standby (the front LED was not light, and the link indicator on my wireless hub would go out)

I was unsure whether this was an issue with the Hijack kernel as I installed both at the the same time.

Last night I removed the Hijack kernel leaving just 2.0b3. The problem remained.

I have just downgraded to 1.03 and the problem has gone away. There is now no Thump on ignition off and the unit correctly goes into standby.

Its pretty clear from the responses on the BBS that this is not happening to everyone (mother always said I was special) but I'm not sure how to proceed from here.

Any help would be appreciated
Peter Kerr

Two last thoughts:
When the player terminates it is immediate. Thump - screen goes out.

This may be totally unrelated, but its the only "non standard" thing I've done
My player seems to have changed "personality". When I first installed it it would display the RIO logo. I thought the Empeg logo
looked much sexier, so I used the "Logo Editor" by Tony Fabris to install the attached logo. It was set for both home and car.

When I upgraded to 2.0b3 the startup animation was the Empeg logo with the penguin waving its flipper. I thought I read that there were seperate RIO and Empeg logos, and I thought that after the upgrade mine would revert to a RIO.

I'm not at all concerned about this, I'm only mentioning it in case it has some relevance on my earlier problems.

Cheers
Peter Kerr

Just so you know, the Rio vs Empeg logo thing is unrelated to the shutdown problem.

The custom logo and player personality are not overwritten when you upgrade the software. If you want it to go back to the Rio personality, then select the desired personality in the Logo Editor software and either send or delete a logo.

Yeah, I didn't think it was related. I just wanted to spell out everything I'd done to the unit.

I've just found the personality switch on the logo editor (cool app by the way) Does it self learn the personality or does it default to empeg. I can't remember if I changed it or not.

PK
btw the custom logo must get overwritten, or at least disabled, during an upgrade, because the 2.0b3 logo is very different from the earlier ones.

Does it self learn the personality or does it default to empeg.

The personality switch in Logo Editor is not learned from the player. It's simply whatever you select it to be, and it remembers that selection in its INI file.

btw the custom logo must get overwritten, or at least disabled, during an upgrade, because the 2.0b3 logo is very different from the earlier ones.

The custom logo is not overwritten or disabled when the software is upgraded.

You are confusing the custom user-added logo (the one controlled by Logo Editor) with the default boot-up logo which appears before the custom logo (the one built into the kernel).

Your custom user-added logo is not harmed by a software upgrade. Only the default built-in bootup logo is altered with the 2.0b3 upgrade.

Got it. I didn't realize that there ware actually two logos being displayed. Probably because the last frame of the boot animation logo is almost identical to the custom logo.

PK

Probably because the last frame of the boot animation logo is almost identical to the custom logo.

Oh, I just looked at your attachment. Yes, that picture is the same as the last frame of the original logo. The reason I posted that frame to the logo site is so that others could use it as a basis for modifications.

If you completely delete any custom logos from your player, it will still look the same because you don't have anything special in your custom logo. You don't need to have it display the custom logo to see Tux wave. If that's all you want it to show, then just set your personality to "empeg" and delete the logo from the player. If you want it to show the Rio animation at startup, then set the personality to Rio and delete the logo from the player.

What I do is I take that picture of Tux and then I put my name and phone number in place of the word Empeg. So that way, it boots up with tux walking onscreen, sitting down, waving, and then my name and phone number shows up with Tux still sitting there.

PK

I emailed this problem to [email protected] way back on 10/20/01 and never received a reply.

It looks like we have 3 people with this problem now. Me (charcoalgray99), Dearing (MK1), and peterk.

Hopefully we'll get a reported bug # or acknoledgement of the problem from empeg soon. In the mean time, empeg support did offer to send me a diode as a temporary fix. I plan to install it as soon as I get it.

Tom

mk1 players will often thump on powerdown - when they power down, they power down completely; they don't get the chance to power off the amps with the audio outputs stable.

We're still slightly at a loss to explain your problem as others don't appear to suffer... your player definitely thinks it's in car? (check for a fader menu)

Hugo

mk1 players will often thump on powerdown...

Dearing said here that it only happens on his mk1 with 2.0b3, and not 1.3

...your player definitely thinks it's in car? (check for a fader menu)

Yep, I the fader menu is there. I also see my "car" boot logo when in the car.

If there is anything else I can check, I would love to help...

Tom

Well, I'm rather at a loss to explain the mk1 behaviour! I can't see how it'd be any different; when power is lost on a mk1, the player obviously can't do anything as it won't have a CPU to run on shortly. A power loss interrupt in kernel flushes the current empeg_state to flash just before the 3.3v rail goes out of regulation. I'm pretty sure nothing changed in that department 1.03->2.0 (ie, it ain't broken so it isn't going to get fixed)

What happens if you put your player in standby, then turn the ignition off? Does it stay in standby or go completely off?

Hugo

What happens if you put your player in standby, then turn the ignition off? Does it stay in standby or go completely off?

Just tried this... putting the player in standby, then turning the ignition off. The player's flashing led goes out, I guess this is completely off. There was no thump, this is because the amp line is already turned off from the standby, right?

Just some ideas:
Could this be caused by intermittent/bad wires on the sled? I got my empeg around the time other people reported wires coming off.
Could it be related to a certain make? I have a 99 Chevy Tahoe. Dearing & peterk, is your empeg also installed in a GM?
I just remembered I did have a speaker thump maybe once or twice the whole year I was running 1.03, I have no idea if this means anything.
I do have an aftermarket alarm installed.

Tom

I've read posts in this thread on and off since it started.

It sounds to me like there's absolutely no way that your backup (yellow) wire is connected to a constant 12v source. Are you sure your truck's wiring provides constant voltage on the wire you connected to the empeg's backup?

Other than that, I would suspect there has to be something wrong with your unit - more than just bad wiring on the sled.

Bruno

It sounds to me like there's absolutely no way that your backup (yellow) wire is connected to a constant 12v source.

OK, that's something I can check out before I install my diode, which is on it's way from empeg support.

Tom

Definitely check that, and the fuse in the yellow wire too (inside the filter block, there's a pop-off cover).

If you have a rio-car, then that's a slightly different matter; the mk2 would power itself from the accessory line if the fuse blew in the permanent on line (bad!) due to the diode between accessory & main power - which is there for home power situations (long story!).

The mk2a's power PIC is more intelligent though, and doesn't do this.

Hugo

That is the only car stereo i know of that will do this everything else will power it self from almost anywhere

Car audio wiring is very simple really. In fact it is so simple that people often overlook or neglect things - and that can lead to a lot of problems. :)

You just have to take things one step at a time trying to figure out problems. Your constant line should be near 12v with no key inserted into the ignition. Your accessory line should read 0v in the same scenario. Turning your key to the accessory position should now give you about 12v on each. Starting your car should (could) give you nearly 14v on each (YMMV).

You can use a simple test light to check those two lines. If you want to be ultra-safe when probing in your dash, you can use a multimeter (airbags can be deployed when completing a circuit with a test light - obviously when touching the wrong (tm) leads. :)

Bruno

Argh... just spent the last hour inside my dash. Here's what I found:

Yellow wire, constant 12v, fuse is OK.
Orange wire, 0v with ignition off, 12v with ignition on.

Installed my diode on the orange wire, with the bar facing the player.

It still pops!!!!! I can't believe it!

Tom

And you've already confirmed that downgrading to 1.03 makes the problem go away, right?

Certainly sounds like a software issue of some kind to me.

Looks like you will have to either live with the pop, or downgrade to 1.03, until the next software release. There have been a lot of bug fixes since 2.0b3, so it's possible this has been fixed.

Now, if the next software release still has this problem, and if you're sure that downgrading to 1.03 makes the problem go away, definitely let everyone know about it.

Yep. What the heck, let me go back to 1.03 developer again...

Yeah, everything works great with 1.03.

I think I’ll try 2.0b3 consumer, I’ve never done that before.

EDIT: 2.0b3 consumer behaves the same as developer, it still thumps.

Tom

it still thumps.

One more thing you might try... can you find anybody else in your neighborhood with a Mark II empeg/RioCar and see if his unit thumps? (while in your car, of course) That could narrow down the problem quite a bit.

tanstaafl.

...can you find anybody else in your neighborhood...

Good idea. Anyone willing to help? I'm located in north orange county, CA.

Tom

OK This is getting too strange.
I checked my wiring, traced it back to the connector on the cradle. The perm is permanently 12V, the switched does indeed switch.

I live in Irvine, so while I am happy to try my Empeg in your cradle, given that we've both got the same problem, I'm not sure what that would achieve.

I just reInstalled 2.0b3 and the pop has returned. Let me say that again for the nice gentleman who replied to my post in the programming column. I upgraded to 2.0b3 got speaker thump on shutdown. Downgraded to 1.0 Thump goes away. ReInstalled upgrade and thump has returned.

Start running.

I did consider briefly that I might have a cheap amp (or maybe one that required longer to shutdown) but the other symptom is that the empeg powers off completely, it won't go into standby (even with the timer value set at 20000) so there would seem to be something wrong at the Empeg end.

A thought
Has the download remained static? Is it possible that Tom and I have downloaded the same dud version.

I downloaded mine Wednesday, November 28th

Peter

Whoops, Irvine in Orange County, LA
I have a 2001 Dodge Ram. Its a RED one.

I live in Irvine, so while I am happy to try my Empeg in your cradle, given that we've both got the same problem, I'm not sure what that would achieve.

Yeah, I don't think that would prove anything.

I did consider briefly that I might have a cheap amp...

Well, my amps were not cheap, so I think we can rule that out...
PPI PowerClass 4400.4
PPI PowerClass 2400.2

Has the download remained static? Is it possible that Tom and I have downloaded the same dud version.

I believe I downloaded the beta again when I first had this problem, I wanted to make sure it wasn't a corupted download issue before I reported it. I also just tried 2.0b3 consumer yesterday which was a new download.

Guess we just have to wait for next beta! Hope the empeg guys will figure something out. This is probably out of the question, but if they were up to making a debug bulid with some extra serial out info about what's going on, I'd be happy to report...

Tom

I just re-downloaded and re-installed 2.0b3-dev. This time using another PC. No reason to suspect the hardware but still no difference.

My amp wasn't all that cheap $250 US, but I'm fairly new over here (I'm from NZ) so I wasn't too sure what was a "normal" price.

PK

It has nothing to do with amplifiers, the pop is a side effect of the player shutting down improperly, which traditionally is caused by the power control PIC crashing (remedied by the diode cable for early empegs, never an issue with Rio's).

The PIC is programmed during manufacturing and the code is never changed.

It's very odd that 2.x would fail to shut down properly while 1.x works OK. It's also very odd that only two people seem to have reported this, unless I missed something. We've never seen it happen here.

We've fixed many dozens of bugs and reworked some of the code since Beta3 (we're about to release Beta7 to the alpha team) so I suggest you stick with 1.x for now. Try the next public beta and if it still happens we'll look into it.

Rob

Hi.

we're about to release Beta7 to the alpha team

I'm really unsure wether to be happy about that (seeing that the software advances) or unhappy, because we probably won't see a public beta before next year (with only 2-3 working days before that, depending on local holidays).

cu,
sven

It has nothing to do with amplifiers, the pop is a side effect of the player shutting down improperly, which traditionally is caused by the power control PIC crashing (remedied by the diode cable for early empegs, never an issue with Rio's).

Thanks. I did initially consider the amp (ie examine all your own stuff first before blaming the software ) but ruled it because the unit also wasn't going into standby.

Seeing as you are reading this, let me put all the symptoms in one place, in case it leads to an epiphany (?)

All symptoms apply to "in car" running unless otherwise stated.

When the unit is playing and ignition is shut off there is a distinctive (not too loud, but loud enough to be disturbing) pop.

The screen goes dark immediately. There is no standby light.

When restarted, it picks up from about the same place in the current song. I'm not sure whether this means that part of the shutdown is being handled correctly, or its a feature of the "last state" stuff.

If I put the unit into standby manually, (ie hold down the top button, wait till screen goes dark, observe blue light) and then kill ignition, there is no pop - however the unit seems to shutdown completely. Blue light goes out.

When I then re-apply ignition, the unit comes up in standby mode.

When in the car, I always get the Dimmer menu setting (I seem to remember reading that this was only offered if the unit detected that it was in the sled)

I have proven that the yellow wire has permanent volts and the orange wire has volts when the ignition is on and no volts when the ignition is off.

Both tests were done at contacts on the sled.

A thought
I tested using a test light, as opposed to a multimeter. I wonder if there is a variance in the permanent supply or ignition sense levels when the ignition is turned off. I will test later with a multi meter.

The pop does not occur when running in the home using the supplied 12v power pack and line out cables.

The problem occurs on every shutdown. The problem is specific to 2.0b3. I have downgraded twice to 1.0 and upgraded three times to 2.0b3. The problem is consistently present on 2.0b3 and never occurs on 1.0.

1.0 has always gone into standby correctly.

Its particularly annoying, because I just coughed up for wireless lan hardware, so I could rip and sync while the unit was still in the car, and the damm thing won't go into standby.

I am more than happy to try an early copy of the Beta 7. I am a software developer by trade, so I understand the concept of alpha release - but I may also be able to provide some additional, useful feedback.

Any additional thoughts/suggestions would be appreciated.....

Peter

the next public beta and if it still happens we'll look into it.

Sorry, no luck with 2.0b7

Tom

Has anyone else experienced this, other than the two guys in this thread?

If it's just the two of them we need to work out what is different about their setups compared with everyone elses; and which would also be affected by 2.0 and not 1.0.

Rob

Hi Rob
I haven't mentioned this earlier, but I do appreciate the feedback and time you are spending on this. I know what its like to have a product that everyone uses with no problems, except for a couple of "problem children"

One thing I noticed, in relation to a comment you mentioned about ".... the power PIC crashing". When I apply ignition, the unit boots. Pretty obvious. If I turn the ignition off, while the unit is still booting (ie the logo has come up, but before the "loadinng visuals..." etc comments are done, the unit continues to boot. It finishes loading whatever modules it has to and then shuts down. (with the pop).

If I understand how everything fits together correctly, then the power pic you were referring to earlier is keeping this thing up until the boot has completed.

Does the processor signal the PIC not to dump the power until the boot has completed. If so, why does it not keep it up when the ignition is killed.

It sounds as if the PIC is working correctly.....

Peter

If it's just the two of them we need to work out what is different about their setups compared with everyone elses; and which would also be affected by 2.0 and not 1.0.

Well, here's something I haven't mentioned yet. My alarm has an "extended accessory power" module, which basically keeps everything on until a door is opened. So every time I have been referring to turning the ignition off, I really meant turning the ignition off and opening a door. When I tested with a multimeter, I still had 12-14v on the ignition sense wire with the ignition off before the doors were opened. After opening a door it dropped right to 0v. I didn't think this was an issue because many luxury type cars have this feature. This shouldn’t affect anything, right?

Tom

WOOHOO!!!

It's gone. I have no idea what happened, I haven't touched a thing. The power down thump is now gone, and it goes into standby correctly! It's been gone the whole day (tested it many times), if it comes back I'll keep this updated.

Tom

The worst problems to find are the ones that miraculously fix themselves.

Calvin

Well I've found the problem
Turns out that it was the shutdown delay. I had mine set at 20,000 so I could synchronize, via wireless lan, with the unit still in the car. 2.0b3 and higher writes that as 20,000,000 (milliseconds) to the player .ini file. Whats the bet that when the ignition is switched off, the player reads the value from the file, does an atol on it and ......shits itself.

Of course the question remains why did 20,000 seconds work on 1.03. Did you previously store the value as seconds?

I guess the next question is, what is the maximum timeout, and will it be increased to allow for long standby times.

Cheers
Peter

Tony: This might be a good one for the FAQ

Tony: This might be a good one for the FAQ

Or better yet, for the internal bug list. Heading there now.

Wow. Really good find. That would expain why mine started working because my config.ini was corrupt.

Tom

Hi Rob / Support

I hadn't heard anything back on this one.

Can you confirm that this is the cause.........

Cheers
Peter Kerr

Hi Guys
Its been 10 days and I haven't heard a result yet.
I figured that with the new release, and all the new postings, this one keeps getting lost.

Can someone please check the shutdown code and confirm/deny that this is the cause

Cheers
Peter Kerr

Ahem, this is the *unofficial* BBS. We reserve the right to *not* use this as a support forum.

That said, Richard fixed this bug a couple of days ago.

The value in the config.ini file is in milliseconds. The upper and lower limits in emplode are now correct, and the player bounds-checks the value when it's read from the config.ini file.

The bug with the shutdown delay value is on the internal bug list, and the current internal code now properly bounds-checks the shutdown delay. The next release will have it fixed.

With Beta 11, I tried setting my timeout to 3000, and I got the same shutdown pop others had here. Set it back to my default of 1000, and it's fine.

Also, emplode puts in a comma to seperate the numbers, but will not accept it until it's taken out.

(I finally remembered a few days back I now had a MK2a, and for some reason it dosen't intefere with my keyless remote like my MK2 did. Here is the thread on that issue, from a while back.)