(Refer to press release in the Announcements forum)

I'll answer a few questions that were asked before..

The software for this product was developed by the team in Cambridge.

The first version of the software does not synchronise with the car player - it does support the Rio 600, Rio 800, Nike 60/120, Rio Receiver and (via CDR burn) Rio Volt. We hope to add car player support to a later version (but it requires a lot more thought, as two-way synchronisation would probably be called for).

The product runs Linux. You can plug in a USB keyboard and get a shell up on the screen (I'll leave it for someone to work out how, though!).

The product has two USB master sockets as well as a slave socket. If you want Ethernet, you can plug in one of the supported USB to Ethernet adapters. HPNA is built in as standard.

The fan is very quiet, and variable speed depending upon the temperature inside the box. Most of the time it doesn't spin.

Rob

Yes i can see synching with the car player would need alot of head scratching but i have a more important qustion can you get a waving Tux at start up.

Surprised not too see ethernet but if you can get it via ehernet no probs

So when are we going to see any demos in europe offical or otherwise

Congratulations guys! If the excellence of the Riocar platform is anything to go by, It's already an outstanding unit!

first questions off the rank:
is the OS upgradeable and how?
is it hackable or are you having to be a bit more tight lipped with the code?
are the hard disks upgradeable?
What are the other I/Os?
Will it have Prolux Visuals?!!!

This is one sweet unit. Too bad it probably costs several million in AU$

Wow what a product! A few questions/comments.

Is there a pc emplode type remote management software for it? I know that for my setup leaving a usb keyboard hanging around my already crowded audio center would not be appreciated. I hope that the USB connector is on the front!!

The price is a bit high. I had figured that this was the kind of product you were working on, but I thought with the larger form factor the price would be lower, like sub $1K.

Otherwise I want one!!

John

The new product will only be available in the USA for now. International release is more of an issue than for the Receiver because there are network infrastructure matters to be considered.

Rob, I fail to spot anything in the press release that would be the base for the above statement (from the Rio Receiver bbs)....

Care to elaborate?

/Michael

... And is the protocol the same as the Empeg? i.e. Will third party apps work w/o modification?

Mike

Is there a pc emplode type remote management software for it?.

emplode v2.0b3 works completely as you'd expect with it. It will ship with emplode
v1.50, however.

I hope that the USB connector is on the front!!

One host connector is on the front, the other host connector (and the slave connector) is on the back.

The 56K modem needs an ISP. Sonicblue don't have one lined up in Europe. Plus other issues like that.

But if you use the Ethernet to connect your ADSL connection that will work right ? Or are SonicBlue going to in some way prevent those of us outside the US doing that as well ?

No, that'll work just fine. Rather preferred too, for large online software updates.

Hugo

no way of getting cddb over ethernet simply as most folk with one of these is going to have an ISP or enter your logo on details via emplode or front panal

CDDB is on disk, up to a point (about 450,000 titles). If it's newer than that, it needs a net connection to tag correcty - but it will back-annotate any CDs that need tagging at that point.

Hugo

> is the OS upgradeable and how?

It runs Linux in the same way as the car player (double boot from flash and so forth). The kernel could be patched in just the same way.

> is it hackable or are you having to be a bit more tight lipped with the code?

I'm not sure what you mean by hackable. You can get a Linux console right up on the screen with a USB keyboard. The database, software and so forth will look quite familiar to someone who has experience with the car player.

> are the hard disks upgradeable?

There won't be an official upgrade path as far as I know. Unofficially, the product ships with a CD which will build a new disk.

> What are the other I/Os?

2 x USB Master (1 on the front, 1 at the back)
1 x USB Slave
Analogue out on RCA's
Digital out on TOS Link
Home PNA
Telephone
Consumer IR (for supplied remote control)

The USB provides for USB-Ethernet, keyboard and joy pad (you can play SDL games).

> Will it have Prolux Visuals?!!!

Yes!

Rob

Yes, you can connect to the net (for tags or software updates etc) via Ethernet or PNA instead of the modem, if you have a suitable LAN.

Rob

CDDB on the disk now that is incredable anything else like this that might make it over to the empeg.

How would that be useful on the empeg? It's only of use to products which can rip/encode by themselves.

Rob

Give us some tech specs...

How fast StrongARM it has?

What is the screen resolution, bitdepth and refresh rate?

How the screen is illuminated? Backlit? Separate contrast/brightness control?

Kim

206Mhz StrongARM
16Mb RAM
1Mb Flash
320x240x4bpp greyscale (OK, bluescale) screen

CPU utilisation is far nearer the max than with the car player, as this product background rips and encodes.

Rob

What speed is the CD drive in the machine for burning?

I still have mixed feelings about if I would really use one, but it does seem to be a very nice product. From the blurrs on the pictures on RioCar.org, it looks like the screen is bright enough to elliminate the need of either standing next to the unit or using a TV as a monitor for the device.

More importantly than the speed (for me anyway) is what encoding software is being used and what kinds of options can be configured for it? Does it support VBR? Does it support the finesse of the latest LAME encoders? The encoder is what can make/break this type of product for the discriminating crowd. Other than that, everything else sounds very sweet.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this product goes far for Sonicblue.

Bruno

Well, I guess there's only one major outstanding question - how do we convince PaulH to start an HSX-109 forum?

What has the reception been like from press & public at the CES, Rob?

Also, how do you think it compares to the HP MusicCentre? Have you had anyone comment or make comparisons?

CDDB is on disk, up to a point (about 450,000 titles). If it's newer than that, it needs a net connection to tag correcty

Yeah, but that assumes that CDDB information is correct, which it usually (okay, often) isn't. What are our options for fixing it? Can we update the track information ourselves? Can we update the built-in CDDB? Can we submit updates to the official CDDB? Can we use a different CDDB server? Can we update the on-disk database manually?

Also, can the device be used as a CD transport? That is, can it read the cdda data off the CD (or however you want to put/do it) and immedately send it over the TOSlink without reencoding it? Or even just as a normal CD player, sending the audio over the RCA cables?

CES is January 8th - 11th 2002 - but they choose their award winners ahead of time so they can showcase them throughout the show.

I've never used an HP MusicCentre so I can't comment on how we compare.

Rob

It'll burn at 8x after imaging the disk (which can take longer than 8x, though).

Hugo

It uses ARM's MP3 encoder and our own ripper. The ripper is about as good as it gets - it can rip damaged CD's that most programs throw up at. The encoder is ARM's optimised Fraunhoffer engine, which a certain empeg developer worked on while he was at ARM. To get a nice unbiased opinion I asked him if it's any good: "Yes it's very good. And it was very expensive."

So there you have it

We don't currently offer VBR encode (playback is no problem), but you can select your CBR bitrate. If you want you can have the player automatically encode a second file at a different bitrate for downloading to portables.

Rob

This is CDDB2; the info is better than the "free" CDDB database (eg, few truncated titles, genre & year info, etc). It's the same stuff that you get with (eg) a registered version of musicmatch.

You can update the track info yourselves, by hitting the edit button, by plugging in a USB keyboard, or via emplode.

You can't change CDDB server (there is only one; the gracenote one), and can't upgrade the database yourself (there may be updates available, however, but they are ~400MB. Incremental updates may come later).

It can be used as a CD transport to just play a CD, yes.

Hugo

And yes, it has separate contrast/brightness controls. it's a CCFL backlight.

The screen is actually 480x320, not 320x240 rob!

Hugo

The screen is nice - quite bright, decent resolution, nice shade. Colour TFT would be nicer but probably not necessary for this application. As with the car player, there's a choice of display modes, some of which give lots of detail in small type, and others (such as Transient) which give just the essentials in large type. The HSX transient mode is rather cute - it looks just like Top of The Pops.

The text display modes can be overlayed on top of the visuals, which is quite sweet.

Rob

Wow, Hugo, the product is even better than I realised! I'm gonna order mine NOW!



Rob

But how do you order one in the UK

I work for the company. I can order what I want

(They still make me fax a copy of my credit card though!)

Rob

Ok, I've got one:
Does it have similar functionality to the Rio Receiver? That is, if I already have 60+ gigabytes of mp3s shared out on my home network, can it play from there? Or can it only play what it has stored. This would potentially make its storage unlimited.

"I'm sorry Mr. Starr, but if you want to write a check, I still need to see some ID."

OK, so how do we order one in the UK?

And there are 200 posts saying they could build one for cheaper...Ok, so I'm overstating the number of posts at this moment, but give it a few minutes, and there will be that many

I put my $0.02 in already...I told them I tried building something like that, but couldn't touch the audio quality of the empeg.

There are a number of posts saying "I wish it used Linux" as well...

ROFLMAO I missed those...I'm starting to read /. only for the trolls...

Does it have similar functionality to the Rio Receiver? That is, if I already have 60+ gigabytes of mp3s shared out on my home network, can it play from there?

Well, it comes with a Rio Receiver, so I guess the answer would be "Yes. Just plug the Rio Receiver into your home network."

I don't think the HSX-109 can stream files off of another server, though. It's meant to be the centerpiece of your home audio network, the main server. It's not meant to be a client.

You can squirt tunes into it with emplode, so there's no problem copying the stuff from your home network onto it. And if you want more than 60gb of space, then just put a bigger hard disk into it (similar to, and probably easier than, putting a disk in the empeg car).

If you are happy using a PC to serve up all your music on your home LAN, then this product probably isn't for you.

The HSX-109 is for you if:

- You have never had a big music server on your home LAN before.

- You have a PC-based music server on your home LAN but you don't like to leave it on all the time (the HSX-109 is meant to be left on all the time).

- You don't like the complicated process of ripping, tagging, and encoding. The HSX-109 makes it literally as simple as inserting the CD. Everything about the ripping, encoding, and tagging is completely automatic. You can even listen to a new CD as it's being ripped.

- You want a single central unit to store and manage all of your music, including downloads to portables.

Really, it's meant to put MP3s into the living room instead of the computer room. It's for people who don't already have MP3 server solutions worked out, or for people who aren't completely satisifed with their existing MP3 server solutions. Think of it like an expandable 700-disk CD changer that only takes up a single-unit space in your audio cabinet.

They rejected my story that I submitted several hours ago. I made sure to highlight the fact that it is running Linux, and is by the same people who made the empeg, so the hackability should be high. But they chose that story instead, and Now I'm not even going to bother with trying to convey that information in the comments.

The slashdot croud is going to bash the hell out of the thing. Unlike the empeg, it is very easy to build something close enough at a much cheeper price, complete with software. But the main market as Tony said below is those people not wanting to use their PC for all of the managment of music. Sell this to the same people who buy the Sony 100 disk changers, and they can use it, and will be willing to buy it.

As far as $1500, I'm not sure how well it will fare though. The HP one is $1000, and on store shelves now. Can SonicBlue market it well enough to justify the lag time in getting it out, and the $500 price increase.

What a good day to get mod points on Slashdot... =) Shame they don't give you enough points to shoot down all the rubbish people keep spouting...

Knocked a couple of Rob's posts up though... =)

Yeah, the $1500 price point is a real tough obstacle. The Empeg had NO competition to speak of, so the price was worth it (says the owner of two Empegs.) This thing has some features that make it nicer than the competition, but those features come at an unbelievable cost.

Didn't we just go through this with the Empeg? I thought the idea was to make more consumer-friendly products and stay away from the fringe features which jack up the price but only appeal to the high-end crowd... This thing will NOT sell in large quantities at $1500, of that I am certain.

Is there any way we can get images of the back of the unit?

I take it, since it wasn't mentioned, there is no TV out?

How about more images of the display while playing? Are there any options for font sizes?

I ask becasue on my friends Dell Reciever, you have to be standing directly in front of the LCD to actually get anything done. Selecting music from across the room is impossible... (without intimate knowledge of the PINS.)

Thanks :-)

The Slashdot reaction is no surprise. For one thing, NOTHING is ever cool to those guys, or if it is then it's not as cool as it SHOULD be. The main problem, though, is summed up by Roger "They can build anything using a PC motherboard and a small aubergine".

Rob

The press release said $1500.00 as an MSRP. I wonder if it will be sold at a lower price through other channels?

The HP unit with the $1000.00 price tag mentioned elsewhere.. It that its MSRP or its street price?

I'll save everyone else the trouble..

Main Entry: au·ber·gine
Pronunciation: 'O-b&r-"zhEn
Function: noun
Etymology: French, from Catalan albergínia, from Arabic al-bAdhinjAn the eggplant
Date: 1794
1 chiefly British : EGGPLANT 1
2 : EGGPLANT 2


That is such a perfect description of the Slashdot way of life.

Thanks, I resisted asking.

And I was thinking it was some kind of a knock-off of the Fraunhoffer encoder...

Mmmm aubergine parmesean...

As a small aside:

Yes an aubergine is a description of the slashdot way of life.

I also think Robs comment is also making a reference to a UK TV Show [whose name escapes me for now] which features a Indian [from India, not a Native American...] Mother-in-law whose standard recipe for ANYTHING [whether food related or not] involves a list of improbable ingredients ending with '... and a small aubergine' [or starts with 'take one small aubergine...'].

Which also, I think, sums up the slashdot crowd quite nicely too.

It's interesting that CmdrTaco posted about the car player a number of times in a very positive way, when it was also a very high price premium product that many people did not "get".

The way in which he posted about the HSX109 was very different. I won't suggest it's because we gave him a free empeg, but rather because the Slashdot crowd are champions of the small guy (empeg) and haters of the corporation (SB) - and unfortunately any given topic is too short lived to receive more than a superficial glance from posters.

Rob

champions of the small guy (empeg) and haters of the corporation (SB)

That characterization would probably describe many of the readers of this BBS... Maybe even some of the more frequent posters..

That characterization would probably describe many of the readers of this BBS...

I fit into this characterization. I would have been much less likely to give Rio $1299 for my Empeg. Now... $699... That's another story.

This one was worth the +5 Funny:

Having already infuriated the entire television industry, SonicBlue was unsatisfied with it's level of legal disasters, so they have now gone and scared the bejeezus out of the RIAA.

Well done. I won't be surprised if the RIAA & MPAA just drop the pretext and break out the laser-guided bombs. Where's SonicBlue's headquarters?

What a good day to get mod points on Slashdot... =) Shame they don't give you enough points to shoot down all the rubbish people keep spouting...

Knocked a couple of Rob's posts up though... =)



Yup... me too... And I had quit reading slashdot because of the noise level.... Go to look at this story, and I have 5 mod points..

Well.. I HAD five points...

It doesn't have TV out. It does have a very bright bold display which is incomparable with that of the Receiver. There are several display modes, and the main functions are all designed to be usable via the remote from some distance.

I'll post some images when I get a moment (probably tomorrow).

Rob

How about "small friendly development team within large corporation"? It that OK?

Anyway, SB are a mid-sized corporation.

Rob

TV program is "goodness gracious me"

Okay more questions on your HSX

Will it stream to a PC like a car player with displayserver

What remote are you going to use will it be the same as the car

Out of intrest does it use the same caching as the car player not that it would be needed.

I hope you will bring one (one each would be nicer) to the owners meet in july

We're priced midway between the PC manufacturers (e.g. HP Audio Center at $999) and the consumer audio guys (e.g. Kenwood Entree at $1799). Our price includes a retailer margin, unlike some of the competitors who sell direct only.

Clearly this isn't a mass market product and nobody expects incredible volume. We do expect to establish a market segment for technology that right now few people realise they need, but in time everyone will want. The big advantage of our version (apart from being much better than everyone elses of course) is that SB have a wider range of products and we're going to make sure they all talk to each other.

Rob

Will it stream to a PC like a car player with displayserver

I'm sure it could if someone wrote the software for it. The Rio Receiver protocols are well documented. And I get the feeling that Displayserver could be run on it with very little change, as it uses an almost identical architecture.

What remote are you going to use will it be the same as the car

It has its own VCR-style remote with a unique codeset.

Out of intrest does it use the same caching as the car player not that it would be needed.

It has much of the same code. However, when it it streaming and playing audio, its disk stays spun up.

As you may have worked out, Tony is one of our Beta testers - as is Rob Schofield. They are both quite at liberty to be critical or complimentary about the product as they see fit.

Rob

Well Rob, although we all realize that Empeg had to be acquired by SOMEBODY to avoid becoming a casualty of the high production costs, SonicBlue has done little to endear itself to your average Empeg user. While you couldn't possibly comment directly on such an accusation, I think the facts speak for themselves.

We all know the realities of the situation... That it really *is* a small friendly development team, and I'm sure there are a lot of people elsewhere within the SonicBlue corporation who do focus on the customer. But the amazing promise of the Empeg was wasted away by the mid-sized corporation's big-and-bloated-company-like blunders, from the order fulfillment issues, to the complete lack of any perceivable marketing push, to the decision to give up on the RioCar line entirely when something stil could have been salvaged.

SonicBlue's recent RTV 4000 lawsuits are doing even more to make them look like a big bad corporation with no focus on the customer. That is what Joe Slashdot sees, and we wonder why people wouldn't give a $1500 product offering from SonicBlue a chance. The timing of the two announcements (the legal wranglings and the Digital Audio Center product announcement) could not be worse.

My point is that SonicBlue is investing in a lot of technology assets, but seems to be doing their best to make sure none of them succeed. I would venture to say that SonicBlue could purchase Microsoft and run them into the ground within a few years. Though Microsoft might be doing that themselves, these days...

Sorry I'm so critical of the company that signs your paycheck... I just believe all the facts should be out on the table here as we discuss the new product and its future.

Did anybody notice the Slashdot posts grumbling about wanting a general-purpose digital media storage center? Then, did this cause anybody to have flashbacks to our Cambridge friends dorking with the ReplayTV 4000 units?

(It seems like quite a nice box, overall, except I think I would have preferred a case that looked somewhat more like a normal stereo component, or maybe that looked more like the ReplayTV 4000...)

But the amazing promise of the Empeg was wasted away by the mid-sized corporation's big-and-bloated-company-like blunders

For what it's worth, SONICblue has reinvented itself in the last few months. The structure has changed beyond recognition - for the better, I believe. Some of the old problems are not yet solved (customer support for example, but I think you'll agree that Jim Hafner-Eaton has the right approach), but I'm impressed by the group of people I work for and with now.

The automotive situation is going to be a source of anger for many people here, and that's mainly because the new strategy is completely invisible to you. It was time to develop new products (the old car player was ready for EOL even if people were queuing a mile for them) and we're now actively marketing two advanced automotive products to OEM customers - but sadly it's all behind closed doors. Nonetheless I think OEM relationships are the best way for SONICblue to make inroads in the automotive sector, and at some point we should be able to publicise what we have been working on.

I do miss having an own-brand car player, though.

SonicBlue's recent RTV 4000 lawsuits are doing even more to make them look like a big bad corporation with no focus on the customer

I thought the opposite was true.. the features that the networks are suiing over are very customer orientated. The reasoning behind the second lawsuit with Tivo seems clear to anyone who understands how patents are utilised in the USA between corporations, but I certainly can't comment on that. The fact is that the RTV4000 sold it's Q4 allocation in a few days, so it looks like consumers are happy with what they see.

Rob

alright... that's it. Since Tony has one of these (assuming of course that Beta testers get to actually Beta test), I'll definitely be making a stop by on my next trip to Tahoe =].

As you may have worked out, Tony is one of our Beta testers

Yeah, after I made that post, I realized it would be kind of obvious.

What I tested was actually a piece of prototype hardware-- raw electronics in a big square plexiglass case.

I haven't actually tried running DisplayServer on the thing (been afraid to), but EmpegTaxi worked to grab files from it via USB. The only thing is that the USB port timings changed on one of the beta builds and EmpegTaxi quit working (would drop packets). I haven't tried EmpegTaxi against the latest software yet...

Now, your question is why would I WANT to run displayserver and empegtaxi on the thing? Why would I want to grab MP3s off of it?

How about this: it is the single easiest way to rip CDs that I have ever seen. You literally stick a CD into the thing at it does the rest. It is so brain-dead easy it's not even funny.

And the ripper itself is a nice piece of work. It is really good about recovering mangled CDs. I would even be surprised if the new copy-protected CDs were even a slight bit of trouble for it. Although I don't know if anyone's tried a copy-protected CD in it or not.

The ripping is kind of neat... it does a full-bandwidth rip of the raw wave data to the hard disk, then it shelves the encoding as a background task. This allows you to keep feeding it CDs even if the encoding stage isn't complete for a given CD. You can see an icon on the screen which indicates whether it's still encoding or whether it's done with all the background work.

The user interface is very nice. Very simple. Very easy to get stuff done. My only complaint is that it works "sideways" from the empeg-car interface. In the empeg-car, the down button is the confirm/enter button, and on the HSX-109, it's the right button. If you're used to the empeg-car, It takes a little getting used to, you have to remember that you're operating a different device with a different UI and you'll be fine. Once you see the user interface, you'll understand why they did it this way and it all makes sense.

Those who have complained about the CDDB... well, it's no different than if you ripped it yourself. In other words, you will find the occasional typo, the frequent incorrect case on titles, lots of inconsistencies in the artist names, etc. So if you are a stickler for accuracy, then yeah, you still have to go in and fix things. But it's pretty easy to do that from the new Emplode. You can also do it from the front panel with the remote if you like (a bit more cumbersome), or if you happen to have a USB keyboard, you can plug it straight into the thing and do the edits that way. Or you could just shine it on and live with the occasional typo, it's fine if you do that. Most people will just leave the tracks as they are. Only the anal-retentives like me need to worry about fixing CDDB typos.

Broadband connectivity works nicely if you get a $30.00 usb-to-ethernet adapter. Everything is configurable (DHCP, gateway, etc). Or you can just use HPNA connection if you like. My house has really sucky phone wiring so HPNA worked spotty for me. 10BaseT worked great, though. You can get software updates that way. Those are also brain-dead easy. You just pick "Search for new software updates" and it goes and does it. It downloads the entire software update into a temporary file on its hard disk, then applies that as an upgrade file internally. (Note: This is the code that will eventually allow the car player to do software updates with USB or ethernet.)

Sound quality is very good, as you would expect. However, on my prototype box, the outputs were a little "hot" and would occasionally clip. I was told this was a known bug on the prototypes and would be fixed by the time the hardware went into production.

It squirts tunes into portables very easily. I don't know if anyone caught this in its description, but it automatically stores two different bitrates of each rip: One for regular playback and one for the portables. You can choose what those bitrates are. You also have the option (the beta testers bludgeoned the empeg guys into adding this feature) to completely prune all of the extra for-portables rips just in case you want to store only full-bandwidth tunes on its hard disk.

There's no option to squirt tunes into the Empeg Car yet. I sure hope it gets in there soon. My dream is to use this thing to re-rip my entire collection at 256.

If you want to add a bigger hard disk, it should be very easy. Just plug the new disk in, feed it the software installation CD (comes with it), and follow the on-screen prompts to "restore to AS NEW" and it'll wipe the hard disk and repartition it for you.

My overall impression of the thing is as follows: It is SO MUCH BETTER than using your PC as a music server. In the same way that the Empeg Car is better than any other car-based music solution, this is better than any home-based music solution. Combined with one or more Receivers it's awesome.

See, we don't need a marketing department, we have Tony!

Rob

As you may have worked out, Tony is one of our Beta testers - as is Rob Schofield.

So, where do the rest of us sign up to be beta testers?

Who gives a damn about SonicBlue, I'm hoping it goes well for empeg!

Who gives a damn about SonicBlue, I'm hoping it goes well for empeg!

Well, there really isn't an Empeg any more. When I say "Empeg" or "The Empeg Guys", I really mean to say "The team of people in Cambridge formerly known as Empeg".

So yeah we should be rooting for SonicBlue, since the former Empeg team now is SonicBlue.

Damn, we just finished Beta testing!

Rob

Couple of comments on your post Tony:

1. If you can restore to 'as-new' from the CD then this presumably includes the CDDB database [which is presumably on the 'restoration' CD somewhere?].
Which you then need to update to bring it to the latest version via downloaded updates.

2. While it would make a great centre for all your music files, the same problem that the current users of the Empeg face still arises:

Having ripped all your music (at 256 or whatever rate), you then have a large hard disk stuffed full of files (with 100% correct MP3 tags) which need backing up somehow to protect against disk crashes etc.

I guess you could sit there and feed the unit with CDRs [or CDRWs] to back up the database, but with a 40GB disk thats about 50 or so CDs to back it up [and restoration of said backed up files]. Even at 8x write speed, thats still a lot of CDs to burn and a lot of time to sit there feeding it with blanks.

So my suggestion would be to allow the unit to [somehow] archive its ripped files back to a PC for storage/back up only [rather than for playing on the PC] - although there is no reason why you should not be able to do this either as its your CD you've just ripped so you now should be able to treat the mp3s like any other MP3 file.

Or allow multiple HSX's on the LAN to network to each other and allow you to copy your mp3s from 1 unit to the other.

While some might say this only encourages piracy I can assure you that having ripped 200+ CDs to your HSX the last thing you'll want to do is re-rip them due to a hard disk crash.
[same piracy comments may be said about the ReplayTV show 'sharing' features]

BTW: No-one has said what the USB version supported by the HSX is 1.0? or 2.0?

Also, I can't see any mention anywhere what the supported USB to Ethernet adapters are.
I imagine only a few common brands of these devices will be supported but what brands are they?

If you can restore to 'as-new' from the CD then this presumably includes the CDDB database [which is presumably on the 'restoration' CD somewhere?]. Which you then need to update to bring it to the latest version via downloaded updates.

It doesn't work that way.

The CDDB is whatever the latest one was when they burned that CD for production, true. But you don't have to download a whole new CDDB in order to get the player to work.

If you insert a new music CD into the HSX-109, and the CD isn't in its internal CDDB database, it simply connects to the internet to grab the data for that CD only, just like any other CDDB-enabled application. This connection can happen via a dial-up line or via one of its broadband connections (depending on how you configure the player).

The scenario above counts for any unrecognized CD at any time in the player's lifespan, not just for when you format the disk drive. It's not a problem, it simply works.

I can't see any mention anywhere what the supported USB to Ethernet adapters are.

There are a couple of officially supported ones, and some unofficially supported ones which happen to run the same chipset as the official ones. I'm using a Linksys USB10T. In fact, during the beta period, I had to send it in to Hugo so he could crack it open and discover that they changed the chipset without changing its identifier code on the USB port (bad Linksys!).

If I recall correctly, the supported adapters are the ones with the Pegasus chipset. There might be one other supported chipset, I don't remember. Details, Hugo?

My overall impression of the thing is as follows: It is SO MUCH BETTER than using your PC as a music server. In the same way that the Empeg Car is better than any other car-based music solution, this is better than any home-based music solution. Combined with one or more Receivers it's awesome.

This is excatly the point that the /.ers miss. Yes there are things that can do it for less cash, but to have it all work seamlessly in one unit is soooooo much better.

I would really like to see the transfer of songs between the car player and the HSX, much in the same way you can, apparently, do with the other rio devices.

Background ripping is such a useful feature too. When I rip a CD, i generally leave the computer alone so there aren't any glitches.
Regarding upgrades, are there other features still to come out which aren't fully implemented? Much like the EQ in the pre-release days of empeg?

To preempt any nasty bangs, flashes, and curls of smoke in Europe - what is the power spec for the US unit ? Is it 100V - 240V 50/60 Hz auto sensing ? Or is it 120V only.. ?

Regarding upgrades, are there other features still to come out which aren't fully implemented? Much like the EQ in the pre-release days of empeg?

The only ones I can think of are the Car Player support and a newer version of the Rio Receiver firmware whenever that's ready.

Did we mention that the thing plays games? Plug in a USB joystick and play some public-domain Linux arcade game clones.

ok so how come when I asked about the hp device about the only resonse I got was the same thing the slashdotters are saying now everyone is defending about the same item made by empeg hmmm.....

I would like this better if it had ethernet and video out

>Did we mention that the thing plays games?

Cool! block out!

Groovey factor 100, usefull factor 2
without a video out games are going to be pretty ordinary considering that it will probably be positioned in the entertainment cabinet.

I find the decision not to have ethernet on board a bit curious. the Reciever requires streamed files over ethernet doesn't it? Seems odd that you have to buy an extra device to use it.

If I recall correctly, the supported adapters are the ones with the Pegasus chipset.

What about USB -> 802.11? Wires in the living room are soooo 20th century :-)

For that matter I really don't get why this product and the receiver don't come with wireless capability by default.

-Mike

Groovey factor 100, usefull factor 2

There's actually a reason it has the games on it, and it has little to do with "groovy" or "useful". Dunno if the guys are interested in saying why, though...


the Reciever requires streamed files over ethernet doesn't it?

Or HPNA. It comes standard with HPNA, as does the Receiver. You take them home, open the boxes, and plug them into telephone jacks using ordinary telephone wire. They work. Simple.

If you want to get complicated with Ethernet, you can. But that's the next step up.

What about USB -> 802.11?

Interesting idea. I've seen some USB wireless adapters out there. Dunno if this thing has drivers for it.

I mean, USB-> USB/Ethernet -> Ethernet/Wireless would work fine, but going straight into the wireless adapter would also be fun.

SonicBlue website indicates it is 100 to 240 Volt - therefore I expect it has a universal power supply in it like most modern consumer products tend to do these days
[hell I know if I were paying $USD1500 for one of these I'd expect it to work on 240V without me needing tell it the local voltage].

it is very easy to build something close enough at a much cheeper price, complete with software.

Do software engineers make so little out where you are? I don't know anyone that works with me that would ever consider building somethng like this - they'd all simply buy one. And I work with tons of hardware and software engineers.

I love DIY, but something like this is more for the mild-hackability and slight upgrading. There's no way anyone on a budget could build a unit of that class/calibre for even close to that price. Not to that degree of finish certainly.

You see the same argument all the time for in-car MP3 players. And where are all these products right now? Why is it that no one can finish a product? Why is it that anyone who gets closed to finished is left with a very limited single-purpose pile of crap (in comparison)? Slashdot's new headline story should be to mention how out of the loop the are.

Bruno

I mean, USB-> USB/Ethernet -> Ethernet/Wireless would work fine, but going straight into the wireless adapter would also be fun.

Not to mention it would save you about $300. Those ethernet to wireless adapters are pricey.

-Mike

I guess my real thought was to use it in conjunction with my current solution. The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking I want to build something myself. However, it wouldn't suprise me if someone hacks it to use NFS mounted drives, thus expanding its storage capacity without voiding a hardware warranty, enabling robust low cost backup, as well as opening it up for other cool things which my sleep deprived mind can't think of at the moment.
It appears that the guys have continued their trend of making a cool toy which can be easily expanded by those with a bent for that type of thing. I was just wondering how far the "factory" was going to take things. It certianly doesn't seem like it would be difficult to add similar funcionality the the rio receiver.
Hmm, now that I think about it, imagine being able to use it to stream music from such sources as http://paradiseradio.com, or other internet based streaming audio, or play your mp3s, or....

Oh yeah - thanks for the pointer. It (the text on the specs on the SB site) doesn't show up in Netscape, only in IE...

I had to send it in to Hugo so he could crack it open and discover that they changed the chipset without changing its identifier code on the USB port (bad Linksys!).

This is why I refuse to buy Linksys network adaptors. They do this all the time, just change the chipset, making a completly new product, but with the same model number and no easy way to tell. Once, I bought a card specificially for a Linux machine. The box said it supported Linux, so I grabbed it, tried it, and dug deeper into the problem. I had a newer revision card that did not have Linux support yet. After talking it back, I grabbed another brand card. I thought about trying them again until I helped a friend reload his machine. We couldn't get the right NIC drivers, and ended up having to pull the card, look at some obscure chip, then finally get the right drivers.

Glad to see they haven't changed. I'll continue to avoid their NIC products.

Do software engineers make so little out where you are?

It's not that, the point I was thinking of is the fact that there are plenty of finished solutions out there now, with just a few features missing compaired to this. Throw it all on a PC with the extra other programs needed to complete functionality, and you have the same thing, with lots less finish overall. But for $1500, I can't justify that amount of finish compaired to the PC already sitting in my living room. The people this seems best for are non PC people. And I am the exact opposite of that with 9 computers up and running in this house. I was able to justify the expense on the empeg because it's able to act as a music player in and out of the car. While this unit does the home part way better, it is stuck there.

You see the same argument all the time for in-car MP3 players.

With the car player, there are a number of additional factors. Size, visual interface, and control. Those are the tough points to overcome in a car, but they are not a huge issue in a home product.

The player is very nice. I hope it does very well. It's just not for me in my current situation.

That's sort-of the point; it's a box to get non-computer people into the wonders of mp3/digital audio. They get to rip all their CDs, stream them around the house, use natty MP3 portables, burn MP3 CDs or audio CDs, etc.

It's the sort of box that my parents could handle; I've already set musicmatch up on their home PC and showed them how to rip stuff (and play it with their rio receiver) but they've not ripped any new content - it's too intimidating.

OTOH, if you give them a box with a CD tray and a record button, they're just fine with that.

Hugo

1 - Yes, you'll have an old CDDB. Software updates don't *currently* include CDDB updates, so this isn't a huge issue.

2 - Backup is something we're looking at. It is unlikely to be PC-centric though, as the whole product isn't PC-centric. Mirroring is likely to be a side-effect of car player support ;)

USB 1.1, btw. Ethernet adaptors include SMC2202, Linksys 10T/100TX, D-Link DU-E100, D-Link DSB-650TX. Pegasus chipset, basically.

Hugo

Not found any drivers for USB->wireless cards as yet. I do have a lucent one, which inside is a USB->PCMCIA converter and a standard lucent card (as supported by linux) so that probably wouldn't be *too* hard.

When I have some spare time I'll hook it up to the USB analyser and see what it does...

Hugo

Seeing there is probs with ethernet/usb adaptors changing mid life how about cuddling up to someone and having an sonicblue approved ethernet adaptor to save hassel

I saw the competing HP box at the local Best Buy store recently. Like many of the items for sale in Best Buy it was not even hooked up so you could use it and nobody was looking at it (besides me).

Judging from the look and feel of it, the HP is a very cheaply made component. It had the "Hi there! I'm a crappy quality platic made in China piece of junk" written all over it. Even the buttons felt like they were about to fall off just from pressing them. This is not what I would expect from a $1000 piece of equipment! I thought to myself, "what's wrong with HP, aren't they embarassed to have their good name written on this trash?"

I would hope this new SonicBlue version of the same concept has the same high quality standards as our Empegs.

What SonicBlue really needs to do next is marry the audio and video products into a single unit. The same unit that records TV on a hard drive should also store your music. Considering they already have Replay TV and now this, maybe that's not too far away. Rob????

Strikes me that the competition for this comes down to the following:
- Home Brew
The ./ers favourite. I think we all understand that they just don't understand the
target market.
- HP Music Center
I don't know much about this, so can't compare it
- Compaq IPAQ Music Center
Seems to be targeted to much the same market, but it's cheaper. I'd be interested in
an in depth comparison. It includes 10BaseT as standard. Major drawback is that
it is a standalone unit - it can't serve diskless units like the Rio Receiver.
- Motorola/Simple Devices SimpleFi
Functionally this looks like the strongest competitor. It's inherently wireless and also has a
wireless in Car unit that communicates with the home unit as soon as it's in range.
Major drawback is that it's not actually available yet. Estimated pricing looks lower, but
it's not clear whether this includes the cost of wireless networking or not.

The compaq box doesn't include 10-base-T; it has PNA2.0 (10mbit) like the HSX. There is currently no PC transfer software, and support for only one USB->Ethernet adaptor that is now not available.

(info as of about now, from the compaq ipaq users mailing list on egroups)

Hugo

There's nothing "missing" from the product as it will ship, although I'm sure we will add lots of new things in future updates. There's one major ticklist item that the HSX109 doesn't currently have (apart from car player synchronisation) which would seem like an obvious candidate for the first update, but I'll let you work out what that is.

Rob

Dunno if the guys are interested in saying why, though...

No, not really. Talking about the American legal system always makes me depressed.

Rob

I thought the american legal system was easy those with the most expensive lawyers win

well the lawyers win if no one else

In reply to:

---

There's one major ticklist item that the HSX109 doesn't currently have (apart from car player synchronisation) which would seem like an obvious candidate for the first update, but I'll let you work out what that is

---

gnutella support?

Aha. The games put it in a different class than it otherwise would be in, right? Which probably means avoiding getting into legal trouble or having to pay royalties or license costs or something. I agree with you, the American legal system seems to me to be rapidly spinning out of control where these new technologies are concerned...

/Pepijn

Firstly a very nice looking system.

Is the HD 2.5 or 3.5 inch? Is it possible to install say a 120Gb 5400rpm Maxtor?

Can I *REALLY* use this as my MP3 server? i.e. Can I export it's music database to a LAN via NFS, SMB etc?

Thanks, Carl

P.S. Pity about lack of onboard ethernet... USB is *slow* for larger volume transfers.

Is the HD 2.5 or 3.5 inch? Is it possible to install say a 120Gb 5400rpm Maxtor?

It's a 3.5 inch (since this is a home unit).

Exactly which drives you can install, I don't know about. I would guess that just about anything would work (like the car player), but I'm not sure. Empeg guys, any comment on this?

Can I *REALLY* use this as my MP3 server? i.e. Can I export it's music database to a LAN via NFS, SMB etc?

Currently it doesn't have NFS or Samba on it, I don't think. It's designed to serve other Rio products, so its built-in protocols are proprietary.

HOWEVER...

Those proprietary protocols are well-documented (they were reverse-engineered for the Rio Receiver) so you could write your own receiver application,

AND...

Just like the car player, it runs a pretty straightforward Debian subset, so adding Samba shouldn't be too tough.

OR...

You could probably get Displayserver running on the thing with little trouble and it could be an HTTP music server.

Seeing there is probs with ethernet/usb adaptors changing mid life how about cuddling up to someone and having an sonicblue approved ethernet adaptor to save hassel

There are two SonicBlue Approved usb-to-ethernet adapters for the HSX-109 already. One of them is the Linksys USB10T and I forget what the other one is. They are listed in the player's "About" menu.

Exactly which drives you can install, I don't know about. I would guess that just about anything would work (like the car player), but I'm not sure. Empeg guys, any comment on this?

We haven't tried it, and it would void your warranty, but in theory any IDE drive should work. Cooling is the only potential problem. Oh, and I'm not sure when bigger-than-128Gb support went into the Linux kernel; we use 2.4.13-ac8.

Unlike car players, you can't add a second drive (there's only one IDE channel, and its slave position is occupied by the CD).

Those proprietary protocols are well-documented (they were reverse-engineered for the Rio Receiver) so you could write your own receiver application

Someone really needs to write a Receiver client plugin for Winamp. Someone's needed to for a while, in fact -- but someone really needs to now the audio centre is released.

Peter

If you're going really big, you may need to add more memory (it has 16MB, but pads for another 16). It'll work fine as-is, but will probably get slower the bigger the database is.

This isn't auto-detected by the system though, which means some hackery would be required :|

Hugo

Currently it doesn't have NFS or Samba on it ... Those proprietary protocols are well-documented

Just to be pedantic, NFS is hardly a proprietary protocol. It's documented in RFC 3010. And earlier versions in RFCs 1094, 1813, 2054 and 2055.

NFS is hardly a proprietary protocol.

I did not mean that NFS and Samba were proprietary. I meant that the Rio Receiver streaming protocol was proprietary, but documented well enough so that you could write your own software which utilized it.

It'd help if my foot was actually bigger than my mouth. Oh, well.

Someone really needs to write a Receiver client plugin for Winamp.

Er, Winamp will stream the MP3 data directly from the server. It's HTTP. All you need is navigation software, and Winamp doesn't have that anyway.

Wait, so you're saying that I could possibly format a URL string that could stream a song straight off of the Jupe, without a Rio Receiver or Displayserver or some other third party software in the mix?

Heh, sorry, let something slip in that post... "Jupe" is my nickname for the HSX-109, which is a shortened form of its internal code name... Rob, hope you don't mind. I'll edit the post if it's a problem.

The point of a codename is that people can hear it and have no idea what you're talking about. Now the product is announced it's a moot point anyway!

Rob

Ah, good. For the uninitiated, the internal code name of the HSX-109 was "Jupiter". The Rio Receiver was "Mercury". There are other internal codes named after planets in the solar system. Dunno what they'll do when they run out of planets, move on to moons I suppose.

There's a great story related to this, I've been itching to tell:

When Rob adds a new product code to the internal bugbase, if he forgets to set the permissions on the product right away, some of us alpha team people might see its code name in the pull-down list until he catches on.

Recently, Rob added an internal project name (another planet name) to the bugbase, one which I'm not allowed to see. When I saw it in the list, I ICQ'd him and said, "Hey, so how's that <<planet_name>> project coming along?". He comes back surprised and alarmed, "How do you know about that?!", and I replied, "I didn't, I just tried a random planet name and you fell for it."

So,
Maybe what Peter was getting at/suggesting was a plugin to WInamp that allowed you to navigate your HSX 109 based or PC based [with Rio Receiver software] mp3 collection from within Winamp then?

If thats the case, then Winamp v2.X has limitations in this area, so I would suggest that this worthy project could be done within Winamp 3.X [which is still in beta], but which is supposed to have a much more extensible UI - perhaps even allowing you to replicate the Rio Receiver UI to a point if thats desired].

Now, that would be a possible feature that might get some folks interested in *buying* the HSX who might not otherwise want to buy it.

In reply to:

---

There's nothing "missing" from the product as it will ship, although I'm sure we will add lots of new things in future updates. There's one major ticklist item that the HSX109 doesn't currently have (apart from car player synchronisation) which would seem like an obvious candidate for the first update, but I'll let you work out what that is

---

My pick for the missing ticklist item you refer to is the ability for these units to network with each other for backup/synchronisation purposes and also to let you stream mp3 files from another HSX 109 for playback purposes [this in effect allows remote control of 1 HSX 109 by another - and/or (even more useful perhaps)by a PC and/or web browser?].

This is what the ReplayTV units can do right now - move shows between units so it would be logical for the HSX to support this also.

I am sorry but i have to ask is anyone working on Uranus

I had to say this before anyone else rolled out the bad taste joke

Roger just posted this nifty link on the Rio Receiver BBS:

http://www.differentpla.net/~roger/empeg/receiver/

How to use HTTP to query a Rio Receiver server...

Question for the OS gurus: given that the unit has two audio outputs (TOSlink and RCA), would it be possible for the player to send one audio stream to the TOS and a different one to the RCAs ? Either stream could come from the hard disk or the CD.

Unlike car players, you can't add a second drive (there's only one IDE channel, and its slave position is occupied by the CD).

In the case of upgrading drive sizes, is it possible to unhook the CD and put in the lager drive then clone the contents of the original drive to it?
Would it be possible to do this in some manner in a PC?
just looking at it from a service POV.

I'm sure you could, but everything would have to be done at the shell prompt. Similar to the way we copy FIDs when upgrading the car player's hard disk.

I know it's not strictly an 'empeg' product, but will we see any prototype and internal photos and stories on the geek site?

There already are some.

Oh wait, they're blurred...

Any thoughts on the box from Lansonic? Any glaring shortcomings to this box? Since I have a desire to re-rip my CD collection, I must admit I have succombed to the "shiny objects" syndrome in Lansonic's ability to link to a Sony jukebox and rip an entire collection. (Yikes!! total price about $2k for 60gig & multi-ripper option).

A comparison matrix such as the one at http://www.mypocket.com/mobilematrix/index.php
would be helpful right about now to help digest all the features...
--Andrew

Well, get started. :) Don't wait for me to put together a new matrix for these other products.

That is, unless the respective companies want to send me units. Then I'll put together the best matrix yet. :)

Bruno

Can I install the OS on a preformatted (and loaded) HD?

If I preloaded a 100+Gb HD with a "starter" MP3 database could I somehow install the player OS and tools without disturbing an existing (say ext3) filesystem?

Oh no they're not, you're just not looking hard enough

No, but vice-versa should work. Install with the starter CD *then* put disk in a PC, mount reisferfs, copy tunes over, delete the database in /drive0/var and put it back in the HSX; it will rebuild.

However, this seems pointless - it's a lot easier to drag the tunes into emplode. You'd have to fill in all the tag info (duration in milliseconds, etc etc)

Hugo

Where? In the forground of the photo with a blurred one in the background? I'll have to reinspect each of Geek site photos!

In the forground of the photo with a blurred one in the background?

If it's the photo I think you're thinking of, then no, it's a CD-ROM drive sitting on top of a Rio Receiver in the foreground.

I don't know what picture Rob is talking about.

Right, the lower box has speaker outputs...

Vise-versa... hmmm.. OK... but your comment suggests that all the emplode generated data indexes will not be completely rebuilt when the HSX does a database rebuild?

Pointless? I can squeeze about 10Gb per day via USB -> empeg1. Thus I would need about 8-9 days for the initial load. I'm just trying to save this step and use a nice quiet HSX as an MP3 server instead of a noisy overloaded PC! :)

Thanks for your help.

Hmm, 10GB/day seems a little slow; you should be getting at least double that.

The database is build soley from the info in the *1 files. Actually, come to think of it you may just be able to get away with title= artist= genre= length= tags; emplode will then notice (on first connect) that there are missing tags and rebuild them.

The unit is very quiet; the drives are consumer-type (like in Tivos, etc), on isolation mounts. The fan simply doesn't run in normal use; they're there for "worst case" (eg, unit stacked in a cupboard above a hot amp). When it does run, we kick start it with 12v then drop down to about 7, which runs it slower (and silently) until the temperature falls sufficiently.

The HDD will spin down completely when the unit is off, as long as you're not streaming to any receivers or have any pending compression that needs doing.

Hugo

How does it cope with the plug being pulled at inconvient times like writing to the disk

ReiserFS is a journalling FS. We've not had any problems; however it's not designed to be powered down every time you stop listening; you just put it into standby (much like a lot of hi-fi equipment).

Hugo

Thanks for your help. I'll stop whinning about what the HSX doesn't have now... the unit is truely flexible...

Hats off to you guys... it's a hard system to beat.

It's after all the software that makes all this special. My girlfriend loves the waving Tux! It's just SSSOOO cute ... :)

waving tux is very popular with mine as well

I'm glad the waving Tux is so popular. Thanks.

Go and have a look at Toby Duckworth's (Prolux) photo. Given the length of time the web site was up there, I'm really surprised no one noticed what he has sat (quite prominently) on the shelf!

Well, goodness, there it is, in all its prototype-plexiglass-box glory. Never noticed it there before.

I think the Empeg team likes toying with us and subjecting us to "Where's Waldo?" games with the new products.

Ah, on geek site! I forgot about it. Of course, that's the same box blurred on riocar.org photo (sits on the same shelf, anyway).

Oops.

So have you worked out the spec of our forthcoming Rio Punt product? We're going to follow that one with Rio Model Bird.

Rob

Um... I don't get it...

We're going to follow that one with Rio Model Bird.

The one in Hugo's car on the install album? I've got grave concerns about the quality of the plastics on that unit.

Peter

Umm, no, the more natural looking bird at the fireworks party (and I don't mean Mel).

Rob

I think I'd better do some in-depth investigation, anyone know her phone number?

;)

Hugo