SonicBlue's product line-up currently lacks a HD-based portable MP3 player, while many of their competitors already have one. I believe this is the future for portables. Shopping around for this Christmas, I was able to find the Creative and Archos Jukeboxes for $150 and $200 (US), respectively. Not quite low enough for mass popularity, but getting very close.

Since SonicBlue already owns a fully mature software for HD-based players and thru the release of the Rio Home Audio Center they've shown their willingness to re-use this software in new products carring their brandname, is it reasonable to expect there will there be a Rio HD-based portable with empeg software in it? If not, I really think there should be! Such a product would sell much better than an expensive Home Audio Center component that the average user can't figure out what it does.

Anyone from empeg care to comment?

exhibiting at CES :) not developed by empeg:(

The question remains: How will it compete with the king of feature-packed, functional and ultra-cool-stylish MP3 portables, Apple's iPod?

Someone, PLEASE post details and links to any online pictures as soon as this thing is announced at CES. I'll be at Macworld and will make sure to pop it up onto a web browser at my demo station.

Bruno

Who's it developed by then? Has it been developed in house or is it simply a clone of someone else's product (ala RioVolt vs. iRiver).

Also, what would be wrong with using empeg's software in a portable? From a user interface perspective, I think a portable device has very similar needs to that of a car stereo.

What's the point in developing different software for devices that essentially do the exact same thing? SonicBlue has assembled an interesting collection of companies over the years, yet has failed to really show any significant synergies between them. The company looks like it's pulled out it's gun and is shooting in all different directions with the expectation that many products will fail, but hopefully some will succeed.

Hopefully this new Rio unit will be good. Upon finding the Archos and Creative units for so cheap I was tempted to buy one. However, I decided to hold off since the products in this area are improving rapidly and prices are dropping fast. My RioVolt shouldl keep me satisfied until I see the player I really want.

The iPod looks really cool, but it's still too expensive and too proprietary. I refuse to buy a product that only works with a Mac and/or only works with Windows. I like the Archos design where any computer that can mount it's USB hard drive can access the device, which includes Linux. Also, the Archos can be had for significantly cheaper than the iPod. If Apple were to drop their price by $100 and document how their propreitary iTunes databaes works, I'd buy one in a second. Otherwise I think the Archos looks the best for the money.

But I'd really rather have a portable device with empeg's software in it. Having their car stereo has really spoiled me. It is so refreshing to see a group of guys so dedicated to improving their product and open about sharing that with their customers. When was the last time you saw that type of behavior from Sony or other similar big company?

The iPod competes with flash-based players and is priced attractively when compared against the competition. It doesn't use a 2.5" laptop drive. In fact, the 1.8" PC-card drive it uses retails for the same amount Apple sell the iPod.

Someone has already released beta Windows software that allows syncing to the iPod. It is speculated that Apple will announce Windows support at Macworld. The iPod is exactly as proprietary as it needs to be, in the same way the empeg is. It only works with custom software and that software is developed first for the markets the parent company is familiar with and feels would yield the most profit. If after using an empeg, you think you'd still have a nice time using a unit based solely on directory structure, give one a try. I guarantee you that you'll get sick of the Nomad or Archos in no time flat.

Apple's strategy for the iPod was also to push Mac sales, not just to have the coolest and most saught portable player. They must have done something right because people are buying them like mad. Some folks are buying Apple laptops along with them, when they were previously in the market for less costly Dells, etc.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that SB's new device follows the database paradigm and is not reliant on some simple microcode to navigate a native FAT.

Bruno

It has been developed in-house, at Rio HQ in Portland.

It doesn't run "empeg" software because a) we're not in the portables group and b) we haven't done any work to make Linux and our codebase battery efficient.

I haven't seen the software in a while, but it seemed to have some cute features. The battery life is supposed to be quite impressive - I don't know what the official figure is though.

Rob

The problem with the propreitary software is that in the future you may upgrade your computer to a newer version of Windows (or whatever) only to discover your Emplode (or whatever) doesn't work any longer. You then turn to the company that made the software only to discover "we don't support that old stuff any longer".

I think a better solution to this problem is to use open (or well established) protocols to upload songs to the unit. Then playlists can be created directly on the unit itself or using some proprietary Windows program as well. That would be the best of both worlds I'd say.

At least in the case of empeg I can forgive them because they did release source code demonstrating how to commuicate with their unit.

BTW, the notion that iPod will have any major effect on Mac sales is absurd. First off, only complete portable music fanatics/geeks would buy a Mac just to support their iPod-- a very small portion of customers in the portable music marketplace. Second, even if we want to assume people will come in droves to buy Macs just because of iPod, then this reign will be very short lived. Within 6 months there will likely be something else released that largely negates the feeling that iPod is coolest portable player.

As cool as iPod, empeg, and all these other devices look. I can't help but think Apple, Creative, SonicBlue, and others will loose in the end once the major Japanese electronics houses finally catch upto speed. I'm sure that's not a popular opinion with most, and I feel somewhat sad to say it, but I think it's true.

Hey Rob...thanks for the info!

I hadn't thought about battery life issues. Though Sharp and some others are putting Linux in PDA's with good battery life, so it must be possibe. It just seems strange having you guys go to all this work making great HD-based MP3 software only to have the Portables Group in Oregon go off and design their own software that does the same thing. Why not tweak the empeg software to get good battery life instead? From then on SonicBlue would have one main codebase to maintain rather than two. Just because there's two different groups that shouldn't be an issue-- that's for management to take care of. Isn't that the whole point of SonicBlue-- i.e. bringing all these companies together? It seems like that's not happening at all. Based on what I know, I personally wouldn't invest in SonicBlue.

Can you tell us how big the unit is? Is it similar in size to the iPod or is it big like Nomad Jukebox?

Also, who will manufacture the unit? Will it be manufatured by the same company that did the Rio 800? I ask this because I did a lot of research on the net trying to decide if I'd like the Rio 800. I decided based on many, many hours of reading that the Rio 800 was made with poor quality control. Just go on cnet or amazon and take a look at the comments. In some cases over half the people that bought this product give it a thumbs down! I challenge you to find another consumer electronics product with such a bad user rating! This rating appears to have nothing to do with the unit's excellent design and everything to do with poor quality control in manufacture. It would be nice to hear SonicBlue acknowledge the problem they've had and that it's been fixed.

Empeg/RioCar by constrast are quality units. You hear almost no one on the message boards complaining about the quality of these units. It's a pretty stark contrast.

I really hope SonicBlue fixes these quality problems otherwise I don't think I'd be buying one no matter how good the design is. Judging from Apple's past track record, I have little doubt that the iPod is a quality unit.

BTW, the notion that iPod will have any major effect on Mac sales is absurd.

I am not so sure... Of course, buying an Apple laptop just to support iPod is absurd, but the gadget could prompt people to investigate other Apple products. I, for example, went to Apple site another day (prompted by all the iPod buzz here) just to start drooling over specs of a titanium cased, PowerPC G4 based, Mach3/BSD OSS OS running laptop with a monster display. I never before considered buying an Apple (and worked extensively only on an original ][ several geological eras ago), so I didn't follow their products closely. Now I am seriously tempted...

I didn't follow their products closely. Now I am seriously tempted...

Same here. I am a long time critic of the Apple/Mac platform as a serious computing platform for anyone except graphic designers, musicians, etc. I have administered them, used them at places I've worked, etc. But having seen the newest versions of MacOS and their newer product offerings, I am at least keeping an open mind. Surely I would need to see a shift in application development on the platform before I plunked down the cash on an Apple, but it's no longer out of the question. I am amazed they've turned themselves around. They're never going to have 50% or even 25% market share on the desktop, but that's not what they're really after.

No single manufacturer of any PC hardware has 50% nor 25% either. Where everyone else fights over marketshare within the Windows market, Apple has 100% of the MacOS market. And they've been able to get into the top 5 a number of times, even when compared to Windows PCs.

OS X will be a great imrpovement over the legacy MacOS. However, it has a lot of work ahead of it yet. All major software is available for MacOS, however not OSX native yet. I've been working with Macs full-time for over 5 years. I think Windows XP has the edge over the current version of X as far as usability and user experience though. Apple has done a lot of good things to X since the first public release, but they've been a little behind schedule.

And if anyone thinks that any Japanese electronics giant will ever release an MP3 or music product to rival what we have in the empeg and what Apple has in the iPod, they're seriously delerious. This type of device will turn out to be like the cellular phone. Dominated by European and American brands (or at least running their software) - they're the ones with all the best UI talent. Look at Sony's hand-held, a PALM device. Casio's? Windows. Phones? Nokia, Motorola, Ericsson...

Kenwood has made a move to in-car MP3. They're reselling PhatNoise's Phatbox. And these are the types of deals SONICblue should be looking for (and probably are). The HSX could (should) be marketed under some traditional hifi monikers as well (Rotel, Harmon, Denon, Pioneer, etc...)

Bruno

Kenwood has made a move to in-car MP3. They're reselling PhatNoise's Phatbox.

You forgot the silly name, the "Kenwood Music Keg"

Music Keg? And here I thought the name "iPod" was pretty bad. Maybe it's another one of those poor translations from Japanese. :)

Bruno

Bonzi: You make a good point. I myself have visisted the Apple site at least 5 times in the last couple months because of iPod. Prior to that I almost never went there. Yes, the new Macs with OS-X look temping to me as well.

Still I maintain we are the minority. Most PC users I deal with would feel a $400 portable music player is too expensive when you can get a portable CD player for as little as $30. Many of these people use WIndows PC at work at and are very unwilling to use anything else. Mac is almost a dirty word to them-- they don't take Apple seriously. Apple has a serious image problem to overcome here. iPod will not overcome this bias and cause a major increase in Mac sales.

And if anyone thinks that any Japanese electronics giant will ever release an MP3 or music product to rival what we have in the empeg and what Apple has in the iPod, they're seriously delerious.

Bruno: Wow. Now that's a pretty bold statement to make! I wonder how they got to the point where they are today??? It doesn't matter if they're innovative or not, they're damn good at copying and perfecting given enough time. (Kind of reminds me how a certain company with the letters MS operates). These MP3 products are relatively new so I'm not really surprised the Japanese haven't come up with many good products in this area yet.

You give some interesting examples of European and American dominance in certain markets. Let's look at them (I won't even bother to list the countless other areas where American companies have been eliminated from the marketplace)...

Cellular Phones
The West and Japanese cellphone markets have always been very separate. From what I have read, the West largely keeps Japan out its design meetings and vice versa. In Japan, the market place is dominated by Japanese cell phones, not American and European nameplates. And there are many Japanese cellphone models that are smaller with better battery life and features than what you see available in the US. The Japanese are not behind in this area at all, and quite possibly ahead of their western counterparts in terms of technology.

Handhelds and PDAs
This is market has not matured yet. I own several of these devices and in my opinion, they all have a long ways to go. There's also a certain "compatibility factor" with these devices. You basically have to be either Palm or WindowsCE compatible in order to servive. Since Palm already has the user base, why would Sony do anything but license Palm? At least Sony is making a PDA. Where's the Apple Newton today?

That being said, I think the Japanese will have to continue to license Palm and/or WindowsCE from US companies for a long time. They really have no choice because of the software compatibility issues. However, there are no major compatbility issues with an MP3 player. When a consumer goes looking for an MP3 player they won't be asking "Does it run Palm?, Does it run Windows?" No. All they'll care is that it plays their music colleciton-- something that can be easily achived without any need for a software platform provided by western companies.

Phones? Nokia, Motorola, Ericsson...

Japanese cell phone market is quite separate from European and American. In spite of this Sony is a serious player in Europe. Besides, after very slow 3rd generation (UTMS?) start, some operators are beginning to offer Japanese '2.5th' generation service (with Japanese equipment, of course) here, as a way to offer more high-bandwith multimedia content than possible with GSM/GPRS (and without going to UTMS). We will se whether that flies, though.

Hi Bonzi.

I seriously recommend that PowerBook. Actually any PowerBook. I have been working on a few different PowerBook models, and my experiences are only the best, except for a single problem we (at our company) had with them: We had trouble making our Siemens mobile phones work with them (the mobiles have a built-in IR modem that Apple didn't support at that time), but we finally got them to work.

cu,
sven

Hybrid8, I've seen you with your full support of the iPod, and you've stated that we'll all be sorry for buying an Archos player, but you've given no reason.

As far as I've seen the iPod has the benefit of higher quality design and (I admit) a much nicer UI. That's nice, but Mac has also been around for quite a long time. Archos, in only the few short months I've been investigating their players, has improved tremendously in these areas in a very short time. After that, there's the fact that all of Archos' players are less costly, have larger drive sizes, can be upgraded easily, and the AJR can record! Add to that the USB support and you've got a much more usefull file taxi. Almost anyone who's bought a new computer in the last 3 years has USB, but hardly anyone I know has firewire. Granted, that's not a very good excuse, but with USB 2.0 possibly becoming some sort of standard, couldn't there be more longevity for USB devices? (here I may be speaking on a level I don't fully understand, I'm sorry if I am ).

Anyway, all I'm saying is that you could be, just a little, slightly biased, having been, as you say, a Mac user for 5 years. It's more logical that you would buy an iPod. I just don't see anything in your posts that shows me the iPod is the "Current king of portable MP3 devices." Plus, if I want an MP3 player NOW, and don't want to use somebody's unofficial, unsupported third-party software, I can't buy an iPod, can I?

My opinion (as if anyone cared now), the iPod is much more slick, sleak, and speedy. I just can't get into it and soemthing about it turns me off to it. Plus, I'm planning on using the AJR to record A LOT (as much as I listen to it) so I have no use for the iPod.

Oh well, I guess what I'm saying is that you've got yours, I've got mine. To each his own.


ps-I'm getting REALLY sick of that ad with the stupid guy in his apartment who goes dancing out his door. Do they need to play that in every commercial break? (I'm not biased, I also hate the "Ray of Light" XP commercial. I went to see LOTR and it blasted my head off)

Hybrid8, I've seen you with your full support of the iPod, and you've stated that we'll all be sorry for buying an Archos player, but you've given no reason.

I own one of those Archos players, and have to say that the interface totally sucks compared to the empeg. I bought one back when it was $400, and was fighting the interface from the begining...No good random(max 300 songs, and it was random, not a shuffle of the playlist), no random if you're using a playlist(but I think they kinda fixed that one). It did not remeber where you were in a playlist when you powered off(But if you were just playing songs in a directory,it would at least remeber what song in the directory you were in). The only thing that made it *any* better than a CD-MP3 player is the fact you could also use it to transport files around.

--Ben
10GB MkIIa Blue/Green 030102576.
30GB MkIIa - On order :)

Wow. Now that's a pretty bold statement to make! I wonder how they got to the point where they are today???

Japan doesn't dominate the name-brand high-end audio world either... Anyway, reasoning for my bold comment. Content as opposed to hardware platform. The parts in all devices come from around the world and are manufactured in large part in the East (there exist a lot of chip factories all over Europe and NA as well though, belonging to a wide range of parent companies). That said, the compelling content for the European market and North American markets for these types of goods have been dominated by people within these two regions. In some ways because of divergent needs of consumers here and in the East.

I can't think of too many UI-driven devices that I own or use (or have used) that originate in Japan. Again, something like a simple knob-based stereo component doesn't count for this comparison.

The giants' foray into MP3 has been abysmal to date. The great strengths from Japan, IMO, are manufacturing processes. I'm trying to stay on topic and limit the cross-comparisons. The landscape changes from product category to product category. For instance, the day I buy a vehicle from one of the big-3 US automakers is the day I have a frontal labotomy.

Bruno

Hybrid8, I've seen you with your full support of the iPod, and you've stated that we'll all be sorry for buying an Archos player, but you've given no reason.

My reasons are based on all the reading I've done on the biggest Archos message board over at www.funmp3players.com

If you prefer the empeg to something like teh Neo, then in the same way, you'd prefer an iPod to something like an Archos.

USB... Everybody has it. Fine, but why should that influence the choice in an MP3 player that YOU will use? If I like Firewire and I can get a Firewire player, then I'll spend $40 on a firewire card. Some graphics cards now ship with Firewire as well (new ATI All in Wonder Radeon 8500).

USB 2.0? That won't change the slow speeds of USB1 on older products like the Archos.

Now... I've been a full-PC user just as long as I've been a full-time Mac user - in fact one year longer. Before that I was a full-time Amiga user. Now, where the two share time in my life? I work on Mac graphics technology. At home, I exclusively run PCs.

The computer usage has little to do with looking at the state of current portable players and admiring the advances and usability of one over another. I appreciate the iPod on its own, for the same reasons I appreciate the empeg. It was primarily designed just to be the coolest and most usable device.

I fully suspect more devices of this kind will hit the market place. Directory-structure based players aren't the most user-friendly for non-computer types.

Bruno

The problem with the propreitary software is that in the future you may upgrade your computer to a newer version of Windows (or whatever) only to discover your Emplode (or whatever) doesn't work any longer. You then turn to the company that made the software only to discover "we don't support that old stuff any longer".

The iPod is just slightly harder to talk to then a normal firewire hard drive. Aparently it just hides the music away in a hidden folder, while the rest of the drive is seen as normal. The challenge has been the HFS+ format they use to be Mac friendly, but a little bit more work by the linux community should result in a way to just mount the ipod, and copy music and data over. Can't get much more open then that.

While an iPod won't be the only reason someone might buy a Mac, it's definitly a checkmark towards it. I now own a cheap iMac with firewire for a few reasons. I wanted to see OS X even more (after the few hours I played with it at a store, including confirming "rm -rf /" works ), to use it as a development station to get my programming skills up a notch, and now the possibility of working with the iPod. I am definitly planning on grabbing a Powerbook to replace my current Compaq laptop next year, since I have been able to find replacement for everything on the OS X side.

To show everyone one of my reasons for liking the iPod, I'll include this picture:

The size! That device behind it is the Neo Jukebox, a device a bit smaller then the Creative Nomad player. 5 gigs, that size, and speed? No contest. While most here use the empeg to hold their entire collection, some sync just a subset of their collection. I would be doing that with any device below 20 gigs, so the firewire is definitly appreciated.

including confirming "rm -rf /" works

Errr, it worked? I surely hope that 'normal' OSX user does not operate with root priviledges. I mean, too easy to screw up accidentally...

Regarding those 'protected' CDs, what is typical reaction of shop staff when you return them?

Well, I think you all have very good reasons for buying the iPod. It's really rather useless to argue it with me because I need the recording feature of the AJR (although if I didn't, I still wouldn't want it for my own reasons. yes, I'm stubborn).

Just a few last comments. If it's size you're after, yes, the iPod is the king. The Archos players, however, are only a bit larger and are completely upgradeable. (this, hybrid8, is an empeg trait).

USB... Everybody has it. Fine, but why should that influence the choice in an MP3 player that YOU will use?
That's a bit harsh. I only say it because many people won't buy a firewire card because they don't have a use for it. Plus, you're $40 firewire card brings the cost of an iPod up to about $440. No thanks. (although this is similar to the empeg + amp argument).

USB 2.0? That won't change the slow speeds of USB1 on older products like the Archos.
That's not what I was saying at all. Of course it won't improve the speed! I'm not an idiot! What I was saying is that it will still be supported if one chose to upgrade to the new standard. (plus, the new Archos Recorder 20 will have support for USB 2, which will make transfers on it very fast).

If you prefer the empeg to something like teh Neo, then in the same way, you'd prefer an iPod to something like an Archos.
Oh, ouch. Thanks for the jab. I like my empeg, thank you, so you must not be refering to me.


As for directory structured devices, I have to agree with you. I'm not liking that. But I can live with it.

As I said, I'm not going to buy an iPod. Period. But I can appreciate the things it has over the AJR (UI, ease of use, physical size, quality). I just want to make it clear that the iPod isn't the ONLY solution out there. You seemed unbiased in your comparison of car MP3 players. You don't seem to be so here.

The iPod is just slightly harder to talk to then a normal firewire hard drive. Aparently it just hides the music away in a hidden folder, while the rest of the drive is seen as normal. The challenge has been the HFS+ format they use to be Mac friendly, but a little bit more work by the linux community should result in a way to just mount the ipod, and copy music and data over. Can't get much more open then that.

I've been looking into this as well, and while folks have manually placed MP3 files in that hidden directory, it must be included in a playlist in order for the iPod to see it. Their playlists are in a proprietary binary format, which has not yet been reverse engineered completely. In addition, HFS+ has been around for ages (5+ years?) and no one seems to have gotten anywhere with support for it yet. I don't know if that due to lack of trying or lack of success, but it doesn't bode well. Despite all of this, I still plan to buy one, in the hopes that someone will eventually get it working. In the meantime, I can use my iBook to sync it.

I'm sorry you read some of the stuff I wrote as harsh. I didn't mean to be harsh at all. Maybe I should have chosen some of the words with more care.

The empeg to Neo comparison was to say that if one appreciates how much more the empeg offers, it should be easy to appreciate some of the things the iPod offers over other hard drive players as well.

As I said, I'm not going to buy an iPod. Period. But I can appreciate the things it has over the AJR (UI, ease of use, physical size, quality)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to buy an iPod either. :) I do appreciate its cool features, but I don't have a need for a portable player. This would have been an excellent device when I used to do a lot of walking and busing around. Now I do a lot of driving and spend most of my time in other places where I wouldn't or can't use headphones for whatever reason. If I had one, I'd use it so infrequently, that I couldn't justify it. It was already hard to justify a Nintendo Gameboy Advance. :)

But prior to the cool features of the iPod, I did like what the Archos players had to offer (again, appreciating something I wasn't going to buy).

Bruno

Errr, it worked? I surely hope that 'normal' OSX user does not operate with root priviledges. I mean, too easy to screw up accidentally...

If I remeber right, I was actually root at the time. If a normal user did this, it should just delete their home directory, and if an admin does, they could potentially screw up several things, like installed programs.

Regarding those 'protected' CDs, what is typical reaction of shop staff when you return them?

I've only had one incident where they flat out refused to do anything except exchange it in the initial discussion. So I did, and will be back later to get the refund. All the other places refunded it once they saw the sticker.

i don't understand why people are so jazzed about the ipod. for a little more i got my PJBox which is almost as open as the empeg (it has a published API and an SDK), and has a very active community/mailing list. my pjbox has a 60GB drive - when is the iPod going to hold 60 GB? not any time soon, i can promise.

it's kind of annoying the way it gets no press - but that's nothing new for me :( way back to my amiga, my newton, my replaytv, and now my riocar, i have a history of using kick-ass products that no one else has heard of :(

The PJB-100 has always interested me. I believe it was the first HD-based MP3 portable available, much like the empeg was the first HD car stereo.

If absolute smallest size is not an issue, I think it's probably a better choice than the iPod because the hard drive is easily user upgradable and the device has a published software interface. I also like the unit's minimalist design, similar to empeg. Supposedly the user interface is as good or better than the iPod. The unit is a little bigger than the iPod, but smaller than everything else. Considering the PJB-100 came out in 1999, I'd say it's far more innovative/engineering marvel than the iPod.

However, the price is quite high. The cheapest I could find the 6 GB version for is $389. If I could get this for as cheap as the Archos ($199) I think I'd buy one without hesitation.

Since the PJB-100 was designed by Compaq's research laboratory they inherited from their purchase of Digital Equipment Corp, it's no surprise the unit is "kick ass", yet a commercial failure. Digital was always a leader, yet they failed to market well. Did you know that dec.com was first .com address on the Internet?

Did you know that dec.com was first .com address on the Internet?

After all, first dozen or so 'fuzzballs' making up backbone of network connecting NSF Supercomputer Centers (at 9600bps) were LSI (MicroPDP) 11/03s. (No, I don't remember that; I found it in a nice historical overview in, I think, an ancient edition of this Comer's clasic. I do, however, remember working with 11/03s.)

I know the PJB-100 but I don't know any PJBox. And if they're one and the same as I suspect, I don't know how you're stuffing a 60GB 2.5" drive into it - considering people have been saying they're not available retail yet.

The iPod is cool for many reasons. You won't have 60GB in it any time soon, but you won't have any other 60GB player the same size as the iPod any time soon either. It's not just a feature set comparison between two devices with similar hardware form factors. They're using different disk technologies. If you want to go to the extreme, you can say that the PJB won't hold the 120GB+ of the empeg with 2 60GB IBM drives. You just need a good portable power supply and a small carry bag or pack for the empeg. :) Not practical to stick into your shirt (or any) pocket.

BTW, I also had multiple Amigas and a Newton. :)

Bruno