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#70288 - 12/02/2002 12:11 Button Freeze in 2.11b
darwin
enthusiast

Registered: 10/01/2002
Posts: 205
Since I've updated the software, I've had my buttons not function or respond on me a few times. The music keeps playing, and the visual keeps moving. This has only happened to me in the car, but I only use it in the car unless I'm updating the software. If it happens, it usually happens within the first two minutes. I end up just pulling out and in the player to recycle power and everything works from there.

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#70289 - 12/02/2002 12:18 Re: Button Freeze in 2.11b [Re: darwin]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Dare I say this is a duplicate of this one. I haven't had it happen to me in 2.0b11 yet, but people say they're still seeing it. From experience, bugs like this can be mighty tough to get to the bottom of. Look at Windows...
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- Tony C
my empeg stuff

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#70290 - 12/02/2002 12:19 Re: Button Freeze in 2.11b [Re: darwin]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31438
Loc: Seattle, WA
Please note that it's 2.0, not 2.11.

It happens to be the 11th beta release of the upcoming 2.0, but it's not 2.11. This is notated as 2.0b11, not 2.11b. I know this is getting picky with semantics, but it's important for posterity here on the BBS. (For people looking up old posts next year sometime. )

This is a known bug in 2.0b11. It's been there since 2.0b3, and we're a little worried about it because they haven't found its cause yet.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#70291 - 12/02/2002 13:13 Re: Button Freeze in 2.11b [Re: tfabris]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Yeah 2.11 evokes memories of DOS 2.11 and, well, that's no good.
_________________________
- Tony C
my empeg stuff

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#70292 - 13/02/2002 06:51 Re: Button Freeze in 2.11b [Re: tfabris]
adavidw
addict

Registered: 10/11/2000
Posts: 497
Loc: Tucson, AZ USA
Last night, while driving home, I was able to cycle through a series of events that would duplicate this 100% of the time. I'm kicking myself now, though, because I'm trying it now and I can't remember what I did!

I do remember that involved doing a certain sequence of actions and presses right after reboot. I know one of the actions was the hold on the bottom button to try to switch from info to visual.

I'm certain that wouldn't have been the only way to trigger this bug, as people sometimes get bit after the player's been going for days. I did think it might be helpful, though.
_________________________
-Aaron

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#70293 - 13/02/2002 09:34 Re: Button Freeze in 2.11b [Re: adavidw]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31438
Loc: Seattle, WA
Reminds me of the bit in HHGTTG where the lady sitting in a small cafe in Rickmansworth suddenly realizes how it could all work, and no one would have to get nailed to anything. But before she can tell anyone, the Earth gets destroyed.

Any more hints on the sequence of events?
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#70294 - 25/02/2002 07:11 Re: Button Freeze in 2.11b [Re: adavidw]
ccrobin
stranger

Registered: 26/05/2000
Posts: 49
Loc: Minnesota, USA
I have found that pretty much any time I am running the player with visuals my buttons react very slowly. It is occasionally a little slow without visuals, but with visuals it is for all intensive purposes locked up (though music continues to play). If I have the track timer running, the timer clock only updates every 15 seconds or so. I am running 2.0b11 on a MK1. I am about ready to return to 2.0b7 as that seemed to work much better for me.

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#70295 - 25/02/2002 08:14 Re: Button Freeze in 2.11b [Re: adavidw]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Man, if you could shed some light on this you'd be a legend, because this bug is Public Enemy #1 as far as I'm concerned.
_________________________
- Tony C
my empeg stuff

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#70296 - 25/02/2002 22:10 Re: Button Freeze in 2.11b [Re: ccrobin]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
    for all intensive purposes
[grammar nazi]
This should be ``for all intents and purposes''. Don't know if this was intentional or not, but in case it wasn't, you can get laughed out of a room for using a malapropism of this caliber, so take care.
[/grammar nazi]
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#70297 - 25/02/2002 22:37 Re: Button Freeze in 2.11b [Re: wfaulk]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
If you say it fast enough, most people won't notice. It helps to slur it a little.

Or perhaps he did mean that it was for only intensive purposes. Or maybe only for the intensive care of porpoises?

Personally, I think someone sounds like a moron when they don't pronounce the first "r" in "February." Or leave out the "b" in "obvious." Or say "chewsday" instead of "Tuesday" (incidentally, "Twosday" doesn't bother me so much)

Bruno
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Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#70298 - 25/02/2002 22:55 Re: Button Freeze in 2.11b [Re: hybrid8]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31438
Loc: Seattle, WA
...Or when someone says "aboot" instead of "about".

Sorry, couldn't resist.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#70299 - 25/02/2002 23:04 Re: Button Freeze in 2.11b [Re: tfabris]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Eh I dunno, "aboot" is really more Scottish if you think about it (think Groundskeeper Willie)... Canadian would be more "aboat" (think Bob and Doug McKenzie.)

Exhibit A

Hey, if we're gonna have a grammar nazi roaming the premises, I might as well be the "humorous takes on other peoples' accents" nazi.
_________________________
- Tony C
my empeg stuff

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#70300 - 25/02/2002 23:12 Re: Button Freeze in 2.11b [Re: hybrid8]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
The things that bother me more are when people second-guess themselves and incorrectly correct, like pronouncing ``often'' with a `t' sound, or use the pronoun ``I'' when they should use ``me'' because it sounds less correct.

And don't get me started on the NBC announcers referring to the figure skater Butyrskaya as ``Byoo-tra-sky-a''. Is it so hard to say ``Byoo-tur-sky-a'' (to move the vowel to an English one)? Does it even look like it it has a vowel directly after the `r'? No! (It's like freakin' ``nook-ya-ler''. )

BTW, couldn't the emoticon names in this software be a little more consistent? You've got emotions (mad, shocked, crazy), expressions (frown, smile, wink, blush, laugh), and some miscellaneous (cool, tongue), with no synonyms to be found. I always have to look at the reference (which is only linked from the first page, not after you start previewing ?!?) to figure out whether it's sad or frown.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#70301 - 25/02/2002 23:27 Re: Button Freeze in 2.11b [Re: wfaulk]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Umm, it's perfectly acceptable (and correct) to pronounce the "t" in "often." Maybe you're thinking of "listen."

Damn, I completely forgot about "Nuculer"

Imagine how I felt when I found out my dad was watching the hockey game on Sunday on NBC! Ugh. As if anyone from NBC knows how to announce a hockey game. Or do it with anything but extreme prejudice.

Bruno

Oh, my unit still freezes its controls at least multiple times per week. But playing and updating of the screen always continues without a problem. (on-topic portion of post)
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Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#70302 - 26/02/2002 00:31 ``often'' : wildly off topic (and long) [Re: hybrid8]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
I thought someone might try to call me on this one. Actually, it's not. Let me quote extensively from The Big Book of Beastly Mispronunciations (whose qualifications I'll simply state by the fact that William Safire blurbed it ``ek-STROR-di-ner-ee''):
    often AWF-in or AHF-in. Do not pronounce the t.

    Before I give you my two cents on the t in often, let's take a look at what various authorities have said about it since the late 18th century.

    John Walker (1791), whose Critical Pronouncing Dictionary was one of the most well respected and popular references both in England and America well into the 19th century, declared that ``in often and soften the t is silent.''

    ``The sounding of the t,'' proclaims the legendary H. W. Fowler in Modern English Usage (1926), ``which as the OED says is `not recognized by the dictionaries,' is practised by two oddly contorted classes -- the academic speakers who affect a more precise enunciation then their neighbours ... & the uneasy half-literates who like to prove that they can spell ....''

    ``The t in glisten is silent, even as it is in castle and often,'' says Frank H. Vizetelly (1929), editor of Funk & Wagnalls New Standard (1913), ``yet one occasionally hears pedants and provincials pronounce them [GLIS-ten] and [AWF-ten]. No pronouncing dictionary with a reputation to lose ever sounds the t in these words.''

    ``You don't want a t in here any more than in soften,'' advises Alfred H. Holt (1937).

    Webster 2 (1934), which sanctions only AWF-in, notes that ``the pronunciation [AWF-tin], until recently generally considered as more or less illiterate, is not uncommon among the educated in some sections, and is often used in singing.''

    According to Random House II (1987), ``Often was pronounced with a t- sound until the 17th century, when a pronunciation without the (t) came to predominate in the speech of the educated, in both North America and Great Britain, and the earlier pronunciation fell into disfavor. Common use of a spelling pronunciation has since restored the (t) for many speakers, and today [AWF-in] and [AWF-tin] ... exist side by side. Although it is still sometimes criticized, often with a (t) is now so widely heard from educated speakers that it has become fully standard once again.''

    ``Nowadays,'' says R. W. Burchfield (1996), editor of OED 2 (1989), ``many standard speakers use both [AWF-in] and [AWF-tin], but the former pronunciation is the more common of the two.''

    What is going on here? After two hundred years of censure, has the t in often scratched and clawed its way back into acceptability? I would caution those who might be consoled by the comments of Random House II and Burchfield to heed the admonitions of the past and avoid pronouncing the t. Current dictionaries, incuding Random House II, do not give priority to AWF-tin, and it is much less common in educated speech and far more often disapproved of by cultivated speakers -- particularly teachers of English, drama, and speech -- than Random House II makes it appear. In 1932 the lexicographer Henry Cecil Wyld called AWF-tin ``vulgar'' and ``sham-refined,'' and today the bad odor of class-conscious affectation still clings to it as persistently as ever. As if that were not enough, analogy is entirely unsupportive: no one pronounces the t in soften, listen, fasten, moisten, hasten, chasten, christen, and Christmas -- so, once and for all, let's do away with the eccentric AWF-tin.
By the way, if you had to click on the ``William Safire'' link above, you automatically lose the right to debate anything about the English language.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#70303 - 26/02/2002 06:49 Re: ``often'' : wildly off topic (and long) [Re: wfaulk]
ccrobin
stranger

Registered: 26/05/2000
Posts: 49
Loc: Minnesota, USA
Uff-Da! I never thought my slight fau-paux would create such a string of responses. I guess I need to start typing these posts with my dictionary, thesaurus, and 3rd grade grammer teacher by my side.

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#70304 - 26/02/2002 11:05 Re: ``often'' : wildly off topic (and long) [Re: ccrobin]
SE_Sport_Driver
carpal tunnel

Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
If I'm ever short on time, I have pasted my posts into Word to at least check for spelling if I knew Bitt was online. I'd rather be corrected than continue in ignorance. Is he a grammar nazi? Yes. But he's helping raise the bar a bit.

Quite an interesting bunch we've got here!
_________________________
Brad B.

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#70305 - 26/02/2002 12:01 Re: ``often'' : wildly off topic (and long) [Re: ccrobin]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
I personally think you should get style points for your ironic misspelling of grammar.

I briefly considered intentionally misspelling "misspelling" for another heaping plate of irony, but that's about enough of that.
_________________________
- Tony C
my empeg stuff

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#70306 - 26/02/2002 20:28 Re: ``often'' : wildly off topic (and long) [Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Regardless of all of this, this is, by far, the most well-spoken group of people I've ever encountered on an Internet bulletin board. A friend of mine was/is trying to get a DirecTV emulator job working and is posting on a bulletin board about that. And since DirecTV is only available in North America, all of these people are bound to be native English speakers (except, I suppose, for the odd French Canadian or Mexican), and they are totally unable to express thoughs in any sort of coherent manner. All of the non-native English speakers here speak much more properly and with greater aplomb than any of those other people do.

Also, I try to only correct people that I think need help. I don't correct the non-native English speakers because they don't expect me to speak perfect Swedish or Italian or whatever. In this case, I corrected because I don't want anyone to look bad at a job interview or in front of a professor or whatever.

Oh, and, by the way, it's ``faux pas''.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#70307 - 26/02/2002 21:12 Re: ``often'' : wildly off topic (and long) [Re: wfaulk]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Sorry, Random House is correct. When I hear people leave off any hint of the "t" I immediately think of the same people who say "OVIOUS" instead of "Obvious"

I use the "t" but it's barely audible. I'll make sure I get as many people to use it as possible. Call it the grass-roots approach.

Half the people writing those guides are nothing but pretentious twits anyway.

Bruno

Note, don't pronounce the "l" in "Half"
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Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#70308 - 26/02/2002 22:58 Re: ``often'' : wildly off topic (and long) [Re: hybrid8]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Do what you want. You're still wrong. I'd argue that the pretentious ones are the ones who pronounce the `t' in ``often'', trying to prove to us that they can spell, to paraphrase the article quoted above. (``Sham-refined'' is a wonderful term that I keep trying to work into everyday conversation. Hasn't happened yet, though.) Interestingly, Random House's ``Word Maven'' currently seems to take almost no position on the pronunciation of ``often'' these days, other than to say it's less bad than my reference claims, but he does at least imply that it's an error. (``Nor is this an error as egregious as the infamous mispronunciation of nuclear,'' from the link above.) Also, the fact that no dictionary suggested AWF-tin as an acceptable pronunciation until the 1970s doesn't bode well for your claim, but, rather, to dictionaries' increasing appeasement of the pseudo-literate.
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Bitt Faulk

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#70309 - 26/02/2002 23:10 Re: ``often'' : wildly off topic (and long) [Re: wfaulk]
genixia
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
Also, I try to only correct people that I think need help. I don't correct the non-native English speakers because they don't expect me to speak perfect Swedish or Italian or whatever. In this case, I corrected because I don't want anyone to look bad at a job interview or in front of a professor or whatever.

IIRC, "Also" should not be used as the first word in a sentence and in addition, "or whatever" is a grammatical faux pas.

" In addition, I try to only correct people that I think need help. I don't correct the non-native English speakers because they don't expect me to speak perfect Swedish or Italian or other foreign language. In this case, I corrected the poster because I don't want anyone to look bad at a job interview or in front of a professor or teacher."
It is difficult to tell which context to place this in. You may have been trying to articulate '...(at a job interview) or (in front of a professor) or (other circumstance)', in which case additional punctuation may have helped. I hope that your future homework assignments do not suffer from the same errors. Otherwise excellent. A-



Sorry Bitt. I really tried, but I just couldn't resist.
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Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962 sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.

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#70310 - 26/02/2002 23:15 Re: ``often'' : wildly off topic (and long) [Re: genixia]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Pffft!

_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#70311 - 26/02/2002 23:19 Re: ``often'' : wildly off topic (and long) [Re: wfaulk]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Hey, the "t" only started being dropped in the late 18th century. Why is bringing it back any less correct? In a few years when everyone uses the "t" (very softly of course), won't you feel silly.

I don't need to prove I can spell. I have more spell checkers than I can use. I just think it sounds better. In the exact same way that Nu-clear and Feb-RU-ary sound (and are) correct.

Besides, you'll never know one way or the other while reading...

Bruno
_________________________
Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#70312 - 26/02/2002 23:29 Re: ``often'' : wildly off topic (and long) [Re: hybrid8]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
The problem with your argument of it being dropped in the 18th century is that in the 18th century, the group being polled were the well educated, whereas the group currently being polled are the simpletons that assume that every letter must be pronounced, despite stark evidence to the contrary (the aforementioned hasten, listen, soften, etc.).
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#70313 - 27/02/2002 01:01 Re: ``often'' : wildly off topic (and long) [Re: wfaulk]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31438
Loc: Seattle, WA
I love it. The BBS is back to its old self: The most heated discussion currently is about the pronunciation of a letter in a word.

I'm not sure where to fall on this discussion. On the one hand, copious amounts of evidence has been presented against the pronunciation of the T.

But Bruno's point that it was only dropped in the 18th century makes me wonder: What's the T doing there in the first place? If it was pronounced when the word was first transcribed in that form, who's to say it's wrong?
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Tony Fabris

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#70314 - 27/02/2002 02:04 Re: ``often'' : wildly off topic (and long) [Re: tfabris]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Here's my personal theory on changing language. I have come up with this theory/axiom on my own, and it holds no authority whatsoever. Just one guy talking out of his ass.

In days of yore (for lack of a more precise term), English changed on the whim of its speakers, creating large obstacles between speakers of what was ostensibly the same language. Over time, words changed due to the way they were pronounced. Over more time, the new pronunciations and, sometimes, spellings became the standard throughout the language based on where those words were used the most. For example, if ``boatswain'' referred to something that occurred on the polo field, as opposed to on the docks and in boats, it would likely still be pronounced ``boat-swane'' and not ``bow-sun''. This is all valid change in the realm of language evolution. However, we now have what should be a fairly static language, with the exceptions of new words. There aren't separate communities that have wildly different pronunications of the same words (except for some that have large variations in vowel pronunciation -- think Boston or Canada -- but these are largely consistent within themselves). All of the pronunciation changes that happen these days are because of people that simply don't know how the word should be pronounced, and make up pronunciations on their own, largely based on their spellings. This is in contrast to older changes where people were largely illiterate, and were simply imitating what they thought they heard other people say, like the childhood game where a group passes a phrase through a gauntlet of repeating children to see what comes out of the other end.

Now, I can't honestly say that the more recent version of change is more wrong than the older version. In reality, in my opinion, both are wrong. The language shouldn't change, because it creates a division between the old language and the new language, and between their speakers. But there's no way to do anything about the old changes. They've come and gone. But we can prevent new, arbitrary, changes from occurring.

As reference, I'd like to point out one of the oft () overlooked contributions of Martin Luther. He is usually remembered as the progenitor of the Protestant Revolution, as he was. But one of his earlier transgressions was to print a version of the Bible in German. Until he did so, it was only available in Latin, out of reach of the common German Christian, who had to rely on translations from the clergy, who he considered, rightly, in many cases, to be corrupt. (Think about the current theory that many radical Muslims might be that way because their interpretations of the Qu'ran are spoon-fed to them by radical clergymen, possibly incorrectly.) When he had it translated into German, anyone could read it. I realize that many (a majority?) of 16th century Germans were probably illiterate, but surely many more could read German than could read Latin. And those that could read could tell others outside the realm of the Catholic Church's authority. (I'm getting to a point -- honest.) While this early step in the Protestant Reformation was huge in that context alone, it was huge in another way, as well. In one fell swoop, he unified the German language. Almost everyone started to read that Bible, or listen to it being read. What had been a wild amalgam of starkly contrasting language suddenly became one again. And that force of a unified public was likely one of the forces that made the German Protestant Reformation a success.

So my point is that unifying a language serves to strengthen it, and its speakers. On a related note, I have no problem with local vernaculars, from Cajun pidgins to computer geek cants to even Ebonics, in their local contexts. But when those speakers lose recognition of the real language, and try to communicate with others outside their local group using that language, we've lost the fight. And, while this argument about pronouncing the `t' in ``often'' is hardly reason to lose sleep (despite the fact that I'm writing this diatribe at 4 in the morning), being less that vigilant is the first step in the wrong direction.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#70315 - 27/02/2002 03:37 Re: ``often'' : wildly off topic (and long) [Re: wfaulk]
justinlarsen
old hand

Registered: 31/12/2001
Posts: 1109
Loc: Petaluma, CA
off-topic as ussuall.. i love it.. keep up the good work.
_________________________
---- Justin Larsen

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#70316 - 27/02/2002 08:05 Re: ``often'' : wildly off topic (and long) [Re: justinlarsen]
SE_Sport_Driver
carpal tunnel

Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
off-topic as ussuall.. i love it.. keep up the good work.

Oh yeah.. .what is this thread supposed to be about? hehe I love it too! Bitt, with you premission, I'd like to print that out! That is one of the most insightful posts I have read in ages.

Get a job as a professor and sign me up. I'd most likely fail, but enjoy it none the less.
_________________________
Brad B.

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#70317 - 27/02/2002 14:18 Re: ``often'' : wildly off topic (and long) [Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Uhhh. I suppose you can print that out. It's not like it carries any authority, as I already pointed out. If you want to publicize it in any way, I guess I'd like it if you could put my name on it.

It's kind of hard to get a job as a professor without at least a bachelor's degree. Maybe I should apply anyway, just to see what they'd say.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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