Yeah I mean what is up with that stupid Cadillac truck/SUV thing

Oh Bruno... *sigh*.... so how's that Canadian auto industry doing these days...?

At least I'll never accuse you of not speaking your mind.

That doesn't begin to come close to the pure ugliness of the Aztek.

I can't really disagree. At least the Multipla almost had a bit of playful wierdness mixed in with the ugly, but the Aztec is just plain harsh.

And c'mon, all Pontiac is complete and utter crap. Design, performance, design, build-quality, smell, etc...

I've driven about 200 rental cars in the past 5-6 years, most of them GM. That constantly leaves me wondering who willingly buys the Malibus, the GrandAm, the Skylarks, etc...and *why*? I'm actually going to switch from Avis to Hertz for a while to up the Ford quotient.

I'm going to make sure that I specify in my Will that my body not ever be carried in a GM product of any kind.

Y'know, I doubt you'll care if they stuff you into an Aztec when the days comes. Just make sure it doesn't have Georgia plates.

Canadian Auto industry? We just build the crap for whomever owns the factories. Mostly the big-3. Of course, there was the Bricklin way back when (mid-70's). Hey, there doesn't have to be a Canadian-based company for me to evaluate other's products. I'm evaluating compared to everything else out there.

Oh, when it comes to cars (well, friends will say when it comes to anythng and everything), I'll definitely speak my mind. The worst is meeting a pretty woman only to find out she drives some GM product. Uuuuugh. Complete loss of respect. For Pete's sake, GM uses the same crap parts in the Corvette that they use in a Sunfire!

Now, don't pull a yz33d and try and say I'm anti-US. I just think the US-founded Big-3 automakers design and build the biggest pieces of crap in the world, but that's it.

Last time I had to get a rental they gave me a Grand Prix. Drove it around for one day and returned it asking for something, anything, different. They gave me a Corolla. Not even close to my Integra, but at least 10 times more of a car than the crappy Grand Prix.

Ok, time to stop ranting. Team Canada survived another game

Bruno

Bruno-

I have to agree with you about the big three US car makers for the most part. IMO, all of GM is crap. Worse, not only is Ford crap, but they're turning Jaguar into crap (sure the jag's mechanical quality always sucked, but at least they used to have beautiful interiors...sigh). I would seperate Chrysler/Dodge from Ford and GM - I like the Viper, Prowler, PT Cruiser and 300M (though their build quality is also pretty poor)..

I wouldn't buy an American car, except for the sweet, sweet GT40...hmmmm. I bought a used 97' Audi A4 a year and half ago, and it has blown me away. The car runs like new. More amazingly, the interior looks perfect without me having made any special effort to take care of it. That's what I love about German cars - not only do they run beautifully, but the interiors don't fall a part like almost every other make of car seems to.

If it weren't for Ford, Jaguar and Aston Martin would be a page in the history book. Ford still lets those divisions run themselves. I am SO sick of people saying the X-Type is a Mondeo. The X-Type only uses 20% of the parts and none of them can be seen. If the X-Type came out first, everyone would be saying "wow, the Mondeo borrows 20% of the X-type's parts!" And all of the people that say this have not even SEEN a Mondeo. This isn't the same Mondeo that we got here (as the Contour and Mystique). It is an all-new car that is considered by some European publications to be the new segment leader (formerly held by the Passat). I am not sure where the new Passat fits now..

Ford has had absolutley no say in the design of Jag's. The only reason that the X-type looks the way it does is so that Jag could afford to offer a car under $30K. Quality wise, Jag's were a joke right before Ford bought them. Now, because Ford takes care of the "boring" stuff like logistics and resource sharing, Jaguar can spend its money (and that is TONS of money because of Ford) designing and building cars.

The S-type came out before the Lincoln LS so everyone says "wow, the LS is on the same platform as the S-Type!" But if the LS was launched one day earlier (despite the fact that both were developed side by side), everyone would be ripping on the S-Type.

I am no GM lover ( I get an employee discount, and havn't been tempted to use it), but I do think that GM has the most promise right now corporate wise... But to their credit, they built good engines and transmisions (although, they tend to put them in painfully boring cars).

Design wise? Ford is the champ right now. Chrystler doesn't have much in the pipeline other than concepts that wont get built. Most of their designers jumped ship to Ford and GM in the last 24 months once Daimler took over. Ford on the other hand, acquired J Mays (US born) from Audi/VW in 99' or so. He had a lot to do with the Thunderbird (he wasn't the main designer though). While at VW, he did the MkIV Jettas and Golfs and worked on the TT's and production version of the New Beetle. At Ford, he has done the Bullet Mustang, the Ford '49 and the GT40.

I'm from Detroit, so I guess I take this a little to personally but I also have a little better idea of what is going on industry wise. I spend more time on the intranets and at auto.com, autonews.com and autoweek.com than here! I was involved in Ford's media dept. and was able to see a lot there too... I left just in time before this whole Firestone thing hit.

In general, all recent studies have shown that the quality gap is narrowing. The reason I bought a Japanese car (and it was a great internal debate in my mind!) is only because there are no US built, AWD sedans. And I had trouble justifying a Jetta for nearly the same money that has suspension technology dating from the early 80's.

It is all personal opinion as far as design goes. GM sells more cars than anyone in the world. But more people watch Nascar racing the US than any other racing so popularity shouldn't be a measure of merit. I do know some people that consider the Audi A4 to have a boring interior... Me? I love 'em!

the *front* windows did not lower all the way into the door! I would expect that in rear windows, perhaps, but I would have a hard time living with that.

You'll want to avoid Ferraris too... I think Fiat has been raiding their parts bin. A buddy in Germany once gave me a lift in a loaner POS Fiat hatchback... the thing's interior door release was exactly the same as the F355 (funky pull-up lever on the top of the door's grab bar that you'd never figure out on your own). Spooky. I do believe that the windows went all the way down in this particular Fiat...

I got a ride in a Multipla taxi once outside of Milan. It may be ugly as sin, but as an "urban six-person transport" it rocks. I liked how the middle seats fold down to become massive arm rests with cup holders.

Side note: I suspect that Daimler Benz purchased Chrysler to obtain their advanced cup holder technology. I'm hoping that BMW will wise up and license it...

-Bryce

My 1958 Volvo has red rear indicator lights and white front indicator lights (and none on the sides)

Marius (Escort Cab + Mark II) (as my main car)

Just for reference - I wasn't talking about the X-type, or even the S-type. I was talking about Jaguar's top of the line sports car, the XK8/XKR. The interiors of these cars are sh*t. They're unattractive, and have poor build quality. I know, I've spent a fair amount of time in them.

Is it probable that Jaguar and Aston Martin would have gone under without Ford? Yep. Is it mere coincidence that Jaguar's interiors took a serious nosedive as soon as Ford aquired them? I really, really doubt it. I don't doubt that Jaguar has a fair amount of design independence. However, to say that Ford does not effect the design of Jags is asinine, because they have huge say in their budget and the parts they have access to.

It may be that all these changes are necessary if Jaguar is going to be a profitable company instead of a sinkhole, but that doesn't mean I'm going to be bow down and praise Ford for making them. The end result is still a bunch of Jag's that I like less than I used to.

I don't have any particular prejudice against American cars. In fact, I'd rather buy American. If Ford ever builds a car that is comparable to my Audi A4 (or a BMW, or Lexus) in design, build quality, price, and handling, I'll buy it. However, no such car exists, from any US car company.

-Adam

I heard that owning a Japanese car in Detroit could be detrimental to your health!

Rob

Adam,

I agree with you that there is no US built car that competes in the "near luxury" range. Cadillac is trying with the CTS, but it comes no where close to the A4's and 6's, the 3-series BMW's or the Lexus 300's. The Lincoln LS is really nice, but tips the scale out of that price range. A "baby-LS" may be on the way (rumors are abound that it may get axed) that is supposed to be well under $30K. US companies compete well in the under $20K range and above $35, but don't offer much excitement between.

Jag and Aston (and Volvo) are the only divisions within Ford that still maintain their own design heads. Personally, I wasn't blown away by an XJ8 I drove lately. It was an 88 I think which should put it before Ford's purchase? But one thing that I have seen that would certainly support your opinion is that Ford wants Aston to be leaps and bounds beyond anything else. Ford may have asked Jag to tone it down? So, despite the similar styling on the exterior, the Jags will never be allowed to upstage the Astons. But, at $100,000 cheaper - that shouldn't be a problem!

I only mentioned the above because Ford will not let the SVT Focus be faster than the Mustang. It would hurt the image of the Mustang more than it would help the Focus.

This last year was, I believe, the first year that Jag turned a profit for Ford. Love em or hate em, but you gotta admit, Ford has some decent taste in the companies it buys! (Jag, Aston Martin, Land Rover, Volvo and they want Audi or BMW BAAAAAD.)

EDIT: This thread has gotten a bit off topic eh? Sorry! So.... about those Mini's...

Rob, back in the early 80's this was true for people that worked at auto factories or lived in areas heavily populated by auto factory workers. Most Detroit area auto workers are corporate types and usually don't know much about or care about cars (ever wonder how someone could go from being a CEO of a clothing company to a CEO of retail outlet then get a job as a CEO of a Tech company? ) Now-a-days, most people realize that we are living in more of a world economy.

All the Ford execs drive Jags. All of the engineers drive Audis or Volvos (Ford owns Jag and Volvo and wished it owned Audi). All of the GM engineers drive Saabs (owned by GM) and the execs ... I don't know! (by saying ALL, I am WAY exaggerating btw!)

I guess you meant 98 rather than 88 for that XJ8. Back in 88 it would have been an XJ6, Sovereign or XJS - and it would have been those horrendous square-headlight series 4's which almost put Jaguar out of business.

As far as I'm concerned the last proper Jaguar was the series 3, and I still have the badges from mine (I don't want to think about what the insurers did with the rest of it). I think the recent XJ's are a reasonable tribute to that car and the S type does the series 2 some justice. I'm not too sure what to make of the X's, though, and the XK sure ain't no E type.

Rob

Oops. It was certainly an 88 and was a 6 cylinder, so it must have been the XJ6. I've never owned one, but I have drooled over them my whole life! :P

I believe 88 was the first year of the series 4 - the square looking model, which became dated within a few years. The series 3 had a lot fewer gadgets, but it more than made up for that with style (and the 4.2 straight six was nice too).

Rob

Back in 1979, my father bought a beautiful red Jaguar, I believe it was an XJ12 (it was a sedan, and had a V12). It was a gorgeous car, though mechanically it left something to be desired. Recently he purchased a 1967 Series I E-type coupe (primose yellow). Again, a beautiful old Jag.

The fact that I grew up around these wonderful old cars probably explain's my hostility around the whole Jaguar/Ford thing, even if Ford doesn't deserve all the blame. I hope Jaguar get's back on track designing their exteriors and especially their interiors, because they were great cars back in the day.

-Adam

I have a hard time seeing the word "quality" and "Ford" on the same page. Uuugh.

The big three are very lucky in NA. Very lucky the typical consumer here easy to brainwash and generally doesn't give a rat's ass about what they drive. As long as it's from GM, Ford or Chrysler. You'd be surprised how many people don't know which parent owns which brand either. So with so many brands, they manage to compete well against the makers of quality products (ie. every other maker)

Let me entice more heat. I think the Mustang, and every version of it in the past 20+ years is complete garbage. Engineering capable of a freshman. Cheaply built large engines in poor chassis with even lower quality design elements. Love the fake vents all over the place. Wonder how many owners think they're helping to cool their brakes.

Ok... I've probably ruined all chances of Tony cranking on that alarm clock at my request now...

BTW, anyone see the new Camry? What on earth was Toyota thinking? Uuuuugh! The new Hyundai Tiburon ("Coupe" in Europe) looks pretty nice on the outside and inside. But under the hood it sounds terrible. A 6cyl 2.7L engine producing piss for power on their "GS-R" model (how dare they use that badge). The thing's been redesigned 3 times in the past 5 years - I think that may be an indication of how well they're doing. I did look under the hood of one of the originals in 96 and it looked the like engine had been cast in a cheap wooden mold in someone's back yard. Made me think I was looking at an American car.

Bruno

(...thinks this was offtopic enough to keep up with the average direction of bbs posts)

Heh heh!

Just spent most of this afternoon cruisin' round in a silver-grey fastback V12 E.

Didn't pull any birds, seems as if the only people who look here are middle aged blokes

Just spent most of this afternoon cruisin' round in a silver-grey fastback V12 E.

*Major* jealousy attack...

Didn't pull any birds, seems as if the only people who look here are middle aged blokes

You need to park it in front of Borders Books!!

(The Borders in Portland, OR used to run "Un-Superbowl" events -- chamber music, poetry readings -- where those of us who couldn't give a flying ___ about football could go to Borders on that Sunday and demonstrate to the fairer sex by our very presence that we were kind, thoughtful, sensitive, etc cetera, et cetera....)