US is just now using smaller engines pulling horsepower, cause we are just now making the cars lighter, hp does not move mass, torque does, and where as with turbos you can pull 300hp out of a V6, you cant get the torques, so its has always been more displacement, bigger the engine, more torque.

and just one comment about american cars being scary, it is because of torque that you feel out of control, but torque is power and control is just an illusion. More power, the scarier the ride is goin to get.

Imagine this, I used to race Dirt Track, southern modified, 2000lb cars, 500hp riding on extremely slick dirt that almost mud 25 people on a 1/4mile long oval track where over half the time you are sideways and within 2 ft of each other, the scariest experience of my life every time I was out there, but the most fun I have ever had.

Alright an eclipse GSX is AWD and turbo. Costs about a 3rd of the Viper and with 500 bucks you can upgrade the internals and dial up the boost. I think you are forgetting about the s2000 it is a sports car that thing handles extremely well. And I know most Integras arent sports cars but drive a Type-R and then ask yourself if it isnt at least a tad sporty. I mean hell it beats Mustang GTs at the strip and well thats not even what it was designed for. The new Corvette Z06 is an awesome car and so is the Viper but they just arent my bag baby.

Having gone down both roads I would have to say that this really is a matter of personal preference. Whats better whats worse. Whats the best 'deal'. It's soley up to the individual. I owned a 300hp Miata. It was blown and squeezed.(supercharged and nitrous). It was quick, fast, and handled very well. It was also very high strung and very small. My hobby car is now a Dodge Dart GT. It has a fairly well built 318 (Mean318) that produces about 310 hp. Its not as quick or as fast nor does it handle as well, OK it doesn't handle at all. But I actually like it better than the Miata, I mean, Miatas are common, this is not. It's a piece of American history and that appeals to me. My point is that there will always be one thats faster, cooler, quicker, cheaper, whateverer than what you own. The only thing that matters is what works for you, within your budget. [Stepping off soap box]

Or... you can play the game the way I do, with my SHO-equipped Taurus station wagon. No, it's not the fastest car on the block, but it comes close. For sure it will surprise the hell out of anybody that takes it at face value.

I paid $1495 for the car, and it is (IMHO) the ultimate sleeper.

tanstaafl.

I think he's pushing it a little, but the point is clear. You can bu used an Eclipse GSX for $2500. Then put in $5000 of upgrades. Then you'll have your 12 second dragster. Why buy a GSX used? Because they're only available used. You can lay down some serious hurt for just $7500 out of pocket.

Calvin

They come with a turbo...

eclipse quarter mile records

Calvin

fixed link

Thats eclipse is very impressive, but If you think he only spent 5000 modding it, your crazy.

In the engine bay, the car features a completely "built" race motor, with Crower rods and forged pistons, a custom sheet metal intake and exhaust manifold, and a high-flow turbo. On the dyno, with a 100-shot of nitrous, the car made 667 HP to the wheels.

After all this, its making your point moot. I know there is no way he is getting good gas mileage out of this car, and Im sure its not a daily driver.

As for the time he pulled, yes its is very good but if you put that much work into almost any car, it will pull times close if not better. I have seen mustangs, camaros, even freaking neons that will do that.

My point as I stated earlier I never said there was an inferior or superior car, my point, these days you can mod anything to be that fast, and the car depends on the driver and their driving style, me I like raw horsepower, its very obvious that yall like turbo charged power curves.

nothing wrong with either, it is just tastes.

Hell, If I could have my pick of cars, I would take a Viper and a RX-7. But both are impractical because I cant afford a viper and I cant afford what I would like to do to a RX-7. Actually I would have a less expensive american sports car, if that was practical at all. But being a College Student, I need the truck I have.

Hey if you really wanna go fast without spending too much money, get a motorcycle. That's what I'm doing. Then I'm gonna save up for an old chevelle or an old mustang.

What eclipse are you talking about? Ones that in the 8s, 9s and 10s are beyond modified, cost no object. The ones that are in the low 12s are modified on the cheap and easy. These will beat stock vipers easily. That's the point of the argument that you're missing.

Calvin

If you want to die get a motorcycle.

No, I only said that an eclipse with $500 dollars worth of mods would not beat a viper. I never said it couldnt be done, Hell Im sure that even some of the ones that hit low 10s high nines still had less in them that what I Viper costs and I never argued that...

Vipers are expensive, So are Ferraris, I have seen many cars that have been juiced up for less money that will smoke them. But If I had that much money I would still own the Viper, personally because I love the feel of raw unrelentless horsepower, so much that when you fire it up the whole car rocks with torque, anyone who has been behind the wheel of a V8 with more than 350 hp knows what Im talking about.

any car can go fast if done right, its all preference and how it fits your driving style.

True, it is all personal taste. I don't think either of us are knocking any particular type of "approach" to cars. But we are defending some Japanese or European approaches. Personally, I'm a car guy. I think everything from Mini's to dumptrucks are cool. While raw power is fun (and scarey fast!) a refinded handleing machine with modern features like powered mirrors is nice too. That's why they sell cars like the SVT Contour or the Mustang SVE. They won't knock your socks off at the strip, but they will put a smile on your face on a twisty road course.

The funnest cars that I've driven in were both V8's. A replica AC Cobra and a 328 GTS Ferarri. The Ferarri was actually slow, but damn did that thing turn!

BTW: $500 in mods to an Eclipse will get you far. Since it is turbo, all you really have to do is bump the boost up. Some Eclipses are AWD too, so while the RWD V8 is spinning its tires, the Eclipse actually launches. In the 1/4 mile, an AWD turbo'd 4cyl can win against these V8 monsters because anyone can add power - but adding grip is a whole other story. Yet, once that 1/4 mile is over, the V8 is hot on its tail because the V8 has "longer legs" and the Eclipse will soon be in the dust.

I will completely agree, because as much as I love vipers, if they are boosted up any little bit they are hard to keep traction, if you look up, I know on the last two Hennesey Vipers (the original 650, and the 800). Both whitesmoked the tires in the quarter without ever getting traction. The 800 (which was the twin turbocharged version) ran 0-60 in 2.4 smoking the tires, and they finally got it to pull a 9.99 in the 1/4 smoking the tires alll the way down the track. which I would love to watch, I dont think they would let me drive, I could only Imagine what it would do if it could hold tires.

But Like I said I really dont want to have anything to drive around that would have to have racing slicks just to catch ground. I would really like to see and AWD viper, but that would make some real weight distribution problems...

I guess I will have to design my own when I graduate, anyone know anybody in the Automotive industry thats hiring a design engineer?

$500 bucks of mods won't put you in viper category. I agree with you there. I think between you and SE_Sport_Driver making sweeping comments about imports being able or not able to do whatever, you're both kind of pushing grand statements one way or the other.

Calvin

I never said that $500 would put you in Viper territory... I just wanted to point out that on most cars $500 will only get you a chip or part of an exhaust. But on the DSM's it gets you more because the turbos are de-tuned from the factory so they can afford to warranty them.

Personally, I like burning rubber. Maybe not at the dragstrip, but on the street, yes.

You have to be the epitome of moron. What does burning rubber on the streets do? First off its illegal. Second its a waste of tires. Third it shows your lack of maturity. Forth it just attracts the attention of police from the job they should be doing. Fifth its plain annoying. Sixth Im sure you dont own a car that can do it but rather large clouds of white smoke can be a hazard I have seen accidents occur. Do you even own and car? Sorry but your little comment just pissed me off. Burning rubber on the track is something you cant help and Ill tell you this the people who are doing would give anything to keep those tires from doing it. I guess youll have fun doing your stupid e-brake burnouts but just know you look like a fu[c]king moron when you are doing it.

Damn, you've got one fuck of a complex going on there.

Yeah I hate stupid punks. How old are you, 16 maybe?. Do you even have 4 wheel and a motor to mount your empeg in? No your father's riding lawnmower doesnt count.

Oooooh, Big Man is 17 now. Now you get to pick on all the 16 yr old punks! Too bad you're a little girl and you have to talk shit to people on the internet so your self-esteem doesn't drop into the danger zone.

Thats right Im talking [censored] to you, but Im doing it to boost my self esteem. I havent been 17 in a while now so Im not sure where that came from. Anyway Im not gonna further this argument. And since you failed to address your age or means of transportation I will rest my case and Im sure I have supporters. Peas

Remember, everyone... Don't feed the Trolls!

I think this post summarizes his age (and maturity).

http://empeg.comms.net/php/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=empeg_general&Number=76978&page=&view=&sb=&o=

highway to the
DANGER ZONE

*laugh*

you _must_ find me this link. Sounds amusing as all hell

Kinda off topic but not. I just went to Wendy's for some food and I decided to borrow my roommates 99 Saturn SL1 (base model) its a 5 speed. Anyway on my way to Wendy's I end up at a stop light next to a v6 Mustang. When the light turns green he guns it and I was like what the hell so I dumped the clutch and took off. Too my surprise I gained and finally over took the mustang. Now I can tell when someone is racing and when someone isnt. That v6 was making a hell lot of noise. Im sure it was a auto but still cmon now its a mustang.

It has been my experience that a lot of people who have fast cars these days have absolutely no idea how to drive them. I mean, I don't know how you could fail to drive a Porsche 911 (or 959 or whatever it is these days) fast, but I've easily beat numerous ones from stop lights in my stock '87 BMW 325e. And they were obviously trying to race.

On a legal point, I do this a lot, but when I get to the speed limit (or at least how fast I'd be driving on that road under normal conditions) I stop accelerating. Not quite as illegal as totally racing, plus, I think, it makes the other guy even more pissed off that you've obviously stopped trying and they can no longer beat you.

How can you not drive an automatic? I mean its not like you can bog the engine or just sit there and spin?

Ummmm. What?

I didn't mention whether I drove a manual or automatic. And your second sentence is nearly unparsable.