It sucks to lose your player.. I cannot imagine that happening to me. For starters, its sitting right next to me on my desk here at work. I have always touted that one of the best features of this toy is that fact that its removable.

Once you replace yours, I am sure that you will be using that feature more often.

There has already been a significant amount of discussion on the subject of theft prevention. Any truly secure form of theft prevention would either inconvenience the legitimate user, or place a terrible burden on the company's tech support. There aren't any plans to incorporate additional theft-prevention features into the software.

For every theft protection scheme you can dream up, I can tell you a reason why they can't implement it.

For the one you just suggested: It would require that there actually be a server set up to receive these transmissions. Someone would have to pay for the maintenance on this server. And even then, it would be illegal for the server owner to divulge private information such as the thief's address. Just because the person is a thief and a criminal doesn't mean he loses his right to privacy. He could successfully sue the server operator for releasing his private information.

Just because the person is a thief and a criminal doesn't mean he loses his right to privacy. He could successfully sue the server operator for releasing his private information.

I remember reading Rob's responses on this and I think I understand why Empeg didn't attempt to include anything like this. I also agree that any system you could invent could be defeated.

OTOH, if someone was motivated to roll their own and had some of their own facilities (like a SMTP server with a static IP) I'm not sure what privacy concerns there would be (on the admittedly limited chance that it would work). If a stolen car with Lojack is stashed in a thief's garage, how would that be different?

The concept has always been intriguing to me, but I try to work the problem on the front end - keep it from getting stolen!

Jim

You consider an ip address private information? I guess I don't ... I look at it like a license plate for your car. Wherever you go in your car, people see it. It doesn't even belong to you, it assigned from another entity.

The resources required for this are quite minimal. A server only gets hit when there is a sync. The server only does anything with that hit if it's a new combination of serial/ip. I could whip up the back end for this on linux in less than an hour, and I'm rusty.

It's not really that different than your ip address being logged when you visit a web server.

As for divulging, reveal the info to the owner of that serial number. If they don't have a database of this, again this is something that could be whipped up in no time, and it would be voluntary participation. You don't have to register your serial number and contact information unless you want this feature active.

If my T1 server wasn't disabled as it is, then I could have run the backend server functions from there without issue. As it is, I've now only got a static DSL, which may not be enough for decent bursts of traffic.

This service would provide only minimal information from the "warehouse", an ip address to the owner of that serial number. You could even automate this part really easy.

I don't think this is an invasion of privacy. Your ip address isn't private information, nor is it yours. This would be available to those who wish to participate, those who do not can continue doing what they do now when their empeg gets stolen ...

Greg

i had a dream last night that my car got stolen at the high school i used to go to. I woke up before I got the car back in my dream...then realized my empeg is in the UK being serviced.

Whether or not -YOU- think it's an invasion of privacy is irrelevant.

Whether or not -YOU- think it's an invasion of privacy is irrelevant.

[TANGENT]
There was news story this AM (local, I think) of a woman convicted of vehicular manslaughter after her young child was killed when the woman sped away from a store where she'd been shoplifting and she hit a tree. the woman is, in turn, suing the store for chasing her.
[/TANGENT]

The point of the tangent is that it ain't only the law, but the sometimes capricious implementation of the law that dictates how things turn out. So, I'd agree that it doesn't matter what I (or Greg) think, but how the relevant laws will be applied.

LoJack has been operating for years. It is an embedded process, more or less, that collects location information and sends it to a central station which then forwards that info to the police. OK, so maybe it doesn't send phone number and/or IP address, but I agree with Greg that those are not really private. No car thief has sued LoJack for invasion of privacy that I'm aware of.

Jim

...sends it to a central station which then forwards that info to the police.

Which is the key in this discussion. There's a difference between assisting law enforcement officials when a search warrant is issued by the court, and randomly giving out private information willy-nilly to private individuals who request it.

Which is the key in this discussion. There's a difference between assisting law enforcement officials when a search warrant is issued by the court, and randomly giving out private information willy-nilly to private individuals who request it.

Aaaaaaah, maybe. Again, I'm about the furthest thing from a lawyer you might hope to find, but I think that it would be possible to set up what Greg describes without running legal risk. I never had it in mind that Greg or I were going to drive over to the perp's house and break in.....

OTOH, Imagine the discussion that ensues: "Officer, I've dropped by the station to report my Empeg Car Player stolen. It is sending me secret signals from the thief's living room...."

Can Jim spell Western State Hospital?

Jim

Now Tony, don't get crazy on us here. Stay focused. This isn't willy nilly or random private individuals. This is in cases of theft, to the owners of the stolen property.

How many web access logs and statistics can you find by doing a search on google? Assuming they aren't filtering it, millions upon millions of people regularly put their access logs as publicly available. Now I agree this is a bad idea, but this isn't illegal. What we'd be doing is miniscule compared to this.

In addition, unless you're the guy who stole the empeg, you've got nothing to worry about.

If the thief chooses to steal the empeg, and chooses to sync it, then they choose to get caught.

Tony we're not asking for your home address so that I can post information on what kind of TV you have ... I'm asking for an ip address of a guy who just broke into my house, or my garage, violated MY privacy, violated my safety and the safety of my family, and stole MY property.

I'm asking for his IP address because I can give this to the police to track him down and put this criminal in jail. This information isn't something that is private. Everytime he hits a porn site, this information is available to that porn site. This ip address (that 'belongs' more to a telco than the individual) is just a means of tracking my stolen property.

I don't understand how this could be a problem for you. If it means getting someone's property returned, and putting a criminal in jail, I'll take the damned responsability of potentially getting sued by that jack-ass. Everytime I step out of my house, there's the likelihood that I'm going to get sued for someone. Everytime I shake someone's hand, in civil courts this is battery. I touched that man. If he wants to sue me for that, he's allowed to. If getting my property means I get one more tick on my "potentially sued for..." list, then so be it.

Key Facts:
1. IP address is public information, available whenever you use it.
2. IP address does not belong to an individual. It is a marker provided by the telco.
3. IP address would be that of the last location of a sync on stolen property.
4. IP address and serial number are only information available to theft victim, (maybe timestamp), and therefore police.

Greg

Okay, I'll admit that I'm not a lawyer and that I don't know the actual legality of these things. However, I would like to respond to one statement:

Everytime he hits a porn site, this information is available to that porn site.

Correct, the information is available to that site. However, if that porn site were to turn around and say "On this date/time, the following IP address accessed my site and downloaded illegal photos of minors", and they were to give that information to a private individual without a warrant, that would be (as I understand it) wrong. Even though the act of performing that download is illegal, the individual has a right to his privacy until a court deems the information necesssary in a criminal case.

I could be incorrect about the legality of this situation. Does anyone have any definitive information on this? Not just an opinion?

I disagree with this. My empeg belongs to me, unless I sell it. If someone has it in their posession, it still belongs to me. If someone steals my empeg, wipes the hard drives and sells it on ebay, it still belongs to me. If I sell or give my empeg away, then it doesn't belong to me.

Having something I own report it's location to me is not an invasion of anyones privacy. No theif has the right to hide stolen goods. I really don't see where you're coming from on this one...

I would love to have this work, and I doubt the traffic generated by it would be huge. 1,000 empegs reporting every hour would hardly tax a dsl line. The real problem is that it would be best implemented in emplod so that USB could trigger it.

Matthew

And you know what? This whole discussions is moot anyway. No one would tolerate spyware in Emplode. There's enough backlash against spyware as it is.

I disagree. Pleny of people would. Spyware is by definition spying on you. If people sign up for a service, it isn't spying to do exactly what they ask.

Matthew

And then the folks from kazaalite will release EmplodeLite with the spyware removed! Ironic on so many levels!

My empeg belongs to me, unless I sell it. If someone
has it in their posession, it still belongs to me.

Correct

If someone steals my empeg, wipes the hard drives and sells it on ebay, it still belongs to me

Wrong. If whoever bought that Empeg from the thief in good faith (and I don't see why this wouldn't be so when you buy something via Ebay), then the Empeg IS HIS property and WILL REMAIN his property, EVEN if the thief gets caught afterwards.

Best case, when the thief gets caught, you can demand that he repays you for the damages done (the value of the empeg), but you WON'T get the empeg back because at that point it has become the property of somebody else.

This is the law in Belgium anyway. Strange but true. Believe me, I know. I deal with these matters on a daily basis.

Some shmuck got my credit card information in LA and used it to purchase a cell phone in his name. What an idiot. I was able to get the guy's full information from AT&T and then when I reported it to the credit card company they didn't seem very concerned. I hope they nailed that SOB.

Calvin

Tony, if you had set your laptop's Active Desktop to point to your externally available but non-publicised personal web-server, and then someone stole it, would you consider it an invasion of the thief's privacy when their IP address showed up in your servers log files?

Would you consider someone trying to connect to your un-publicised web-server an invasion of your privacy and an un-authorised access attempt?

Would you consider using your web-server's log files to discern the IP address of somebody trying to illegally access your web-server ethical?

Would you consider giving that IP address to law enforcement officals ethical?

Well whatever we do, the guy that stole it will probably wander to this BBS and do a search on "stolen empeg" finding this thread.

...and there's the rub.

Even though the act of performing that download is illegal, the individual has a right to his privacy until a court deems the information necesssary in a criminal case.

This is not entirely true.
Over here, EVERYONE who gets notice of a crime being comitted has the obligation to report this to the authorities. So if you're an ISP and you notice that one of your subscribers is putting child porn pics on his dedicated web space on your servers, you'll have to notify the authorities about it.
What the authorities do with that information then is up to them. If they decide to press charges, good. If they don't, they have to state a good reason.
If the crime is discovered later on, and they find out that you knew about it for some time but didn't take any action to report it, they can sue YOU. (granted, the chances of this happing are practically zero, but the law does state it)

You're probably giving too much credit to the theif. They'll probably sell it to someone for $50, who will then turn around and sell it for $100 to someone who knows what it is and knows they're getting too good of a deal. But then perhaps I'm just prejudiced against theives in general. I'd actualy doubt the thing is going to hit ethernet untill it is one or two steps removed fom the thief.

Matthew

"Wrong. If whoever bought that Empeg from the thief in good faith (and I don't see why this wouldn't be so when you buy something via Ebay), then the Empeg IS HIS property and WILL REMAIN his property, EVEN if the thief gets caught afterwards.

Best case, when the thief gets caught, you can demand that he repays you for the damages done (the value of the empeg), but you WON'T get the empeg back because at that point it has become the property of somebody else."

This applies for the US as well.

Are you sure about that? I always thought you got your merchandise back and then the thief had to pay the buyer back. Besides, I think it's even illegal to have possession of stolen goods. How do you know the buyer wasn't the thief's partner?

As for violating privacy, I say if somebody stole something from you, you should have the right to bust down his door and take it back, privacy or not. That's what the police are gonna do anyway. Police aren't gods that have special rights (besides being able to speed). And you can always citizen's arrest the thief.

All this reminds me of the married with children episode where a guy breaks into Al's house and the thief sues Al for punching him, and then Al counter-sues the thief for hurting his hand when he hit his face.

At least in the US, your example would be considered possession of stolen property. Even if you are unaware that the property is previously stolen, it's still considered the property of the original owner. Failture to return it after discovery of it being stolen is theft after the fact.

Greg

Don't think so ... I'd sign up for it in a heartbeat. Hell, if there would be support in emplode for it, I'll build the back end myself, and even support it on my dsl line during testing.

Greg

As for violating privacy, I say if somebody stole something from you, you should have the right to bust down his door and take it back, privacy or not.

Be careful if you come in situation like that. After all, you also believe that people have right to shoot someone charging into their house, busting down their door... Right?

I only believe in that if it's me being the one with the gun

g

ROFL! Touché I believe!

If you know you are buying stolen goods, then yes, you are commiting a crime by doing so. However, If you obtain the goods in a good faith transaction (not out of the back of an unmarked white van), then the property becomes yours. All you can do is try to get the money out of the guy that sold it. Sorry, I cant find the relevant quote in my handy 100 dollar copy of west's business law that the bookstore wouldnt buy back.

Sean