#277206 - 10/03/2006 12:06
Virtual PC on iBook?
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/08/2002
Posts: 333
Loc: The Pilbara, Western Australia
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Is anyone running Virtual PC on a recent G4 iBook? Specifically, how is the performance? Is it useable for apps like OziExplorer, or other apps that receive data through the serial port? (I realise the iBooks don't have a serial port - I have purchased a Keyspan serial to USB adaptor.) How about games from around the Win 98 era? Does anyone have any info regarding how long it will be before MS releases VPC for Intel Macs? The reason for the questions is that I would like to buy a laptop (for GPS mapping in a 4WD) and also give OSX a try, so to kill two birds with one stone, I thought I would buy a 12" iBook, and potentially long term gradually retire my Windows desktop PC. I am not in a great hurry to buy so I could wait for the Intel 'books but at present VPC doesn't work under Rosetta, and there are a few Windows apps that I need to run such as a proprietary app for an RFID reader, so rather than have a full tower PC sitting there just for that, I would like to run everything on the laptop. Judging by the rumours, the Intel iBooks (MacBooks?) would be a fair bit faster than the G4s and I guess I could live without VPC until MS get it working. Are the new iBooks/MacBooks likely to stay the same price as the existing line, since the 15" MacBook Pro is quite a lot dearer than the 15" G4 Powerbook it replaced? Thanks. Sorry for the rambling post.
_________________________
Peter.
"I spent 90% of my money on women, drink and fast cars. The rest I wasted." - George Best
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#277207 - 10/03/2006 12:36
Re: Virtual PC on iBook?
[Re: pedrohoon]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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If you're not in a hurry, wait for the new Intel-based iBooks. The idea with those will be to run a native install of Windows, not VPC. I can tell you that it's pretty much impossible to run Windows on a current Intel-based iMac and Macbook Pro. But I also know a bit about some changes coming down the line and can say it's safe to assume that future machines will make the process easier. I can't say for certain the iBooks will install Windows out of the box, but at worst, like the other machines, you'll be waiting for a Universal Binary of VPC or a solution like WINE. Vista apparently will not support EFI (what Intel Macs use instead of BIOS) out of the box, so current owners won't have any additional luck with that over XP.
The machines will be here before the middle of summer, so you don't have very long to wait. Judging by this year's product releases you can expect the systems to be the same price as those they're replacing.
Bruno
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#277208 - 10/03/2006 18:39
Re: Virtual PC on iBook?
[Re: pedrohoon]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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I run VPC with XP on my 14" iBook and it works fine, but it is a little slow, which is to be expected from an emulator. But totally useable.
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Dave
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#277209 - 11/03/2006 10:42
Re: Virtual PC on iBook?
[Re: hybrid8]
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/08/2002
Posts: 333
Loc: The Pilbara, Western Australia
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Quote:
If you're not in a hurry, wait for the new Intel-based iBooks. The idea with those will be to run a native install of Windows, not VPC.
OK, sounds good, does that mean a dual-boot setup, or do you mean virtualisation which as far as I can tell is a technology in CPUs that allows you to run both operating systems concurrently?
Quote:
But I also know a bit about some changes coming down the line and can say it's safe to assume that future machines will make the process easier. I can't say for certain the iBooks will install Windows out of the box, but at worst, like the other machines, you'll be waiting for a Universal Binary of VPC or a solution like WINE.
Now that sounds very promising!
Any ideas on a likely timeframe for a Universal Binary of VPC?
Quote:
The machines will be here before the middle of summer, so you don't have very long to wait.
Are the iBooks likely to be announced at the rumoured April 1st event for Apple's 30th anniversary?
Thanks Bruno!
_________________________
Peter.
"I spent 90% of my money on women, drink and fast cars. The rest I wasted." - George Best
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#277210 - 11/03/2006 10:48
Re: Virtual PC on iBook?
[Re: webroach]
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/08/2002
Posts: 333
Loc: The Pilbara, Western Australia
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Thanks Dave, I would be able to handle it being a bit slow since the sort of apps I would be running would not be very CPU/GPU intensive. (At least, I think a 2D moving map display shouldn't be.)
Is your iBook the 1.33GHz or the 1.42GHz CPU?
_________________________
Peter.
"I spent 90% of my money on women, drink and fast cars. The rest I wasted." - George Best
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#277211 - 11/03/2006 23:11
Re: Virtual PC on iBook?
[Re: pedrohoon]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Mine is the 1.42GHz model.
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Dave
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#277212 - 12/03/2006 01:20
Re: Virtual PC on iBook?
[Re: pedrohoon]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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I suspect everything about the new ibook line will be a lot better than the current models. Likely updated form-factor, better screens without question (resolution and brightness), obviously much faster processors. Wait a few months unless you absolutely need a machine now.
But in the end it doesn't matter if you buy a new or two year old Mac. Every one is better than any (I do mean ANY) Windows system, and that's an absolute certainty. I will NEVER (ever) go back to Windows as a primary OS, regardless of the price difference.
I miss Textpad and one or two other apps. That's about it.
Bruno
Sanity check: Is it it, or is it not, obvious that I've just shared two bottles of wine with my girlfriend? I think not. And my typing just seems sooo fluid. 
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#277213 - 12/03/2006 03:44
Re: Virtual PC on iBook?
[Re: pedrohoon]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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Forget virtual PC, when will VMWare be available? My parents keep ask me to order them a new PC, and I keep stalling in hopes that VMWare for intel macs will be released and I can get them a macmini.
Matthew
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#277214 - 12/03/2006 10:58
Re: Virtual PC on iBook?
[Re: matthew_k]
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/08/2002
Posts: 333
Loc: The Pilbara, Western Australia
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So is VMWare better than Virtual PC? According to this thread, some other options are Qemu and iEmulator, but they seem to be pretty rough still.
_________________________
Peter.
"I spent 90% of my money on women, drink and fast cars. The rest I wasted." - George Best
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#277215 - 12/03/2006 14:48
Re: Virtual PC on iBook?
[Re: pedrohoon]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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VMWare uses virtualization as mentioned before. It doesn't have to emulate the CPU; it can send Intel machine code directly to the CPU. It just has to emulate hardware, and then largely just to provide concurrency between the two operating systems. As such, VMWare is much faster than VirtualPC can be. But that's because VMWare is designed to run x86 code on an x86 processor, while VirtualPC is designed to run x86 code on a PowerPC processor. There's a huge difference there.
One would hope that the x86 version of VirtualPC would take the virtualization route instead of emulation, but that's a huge change to the basic core of the VirtualPC software. The VMWare folks have been doing the virtualization stuff for many years, and do it well. Their changes to move to MacOS X would probably be less significant than those MS would need to move VirtualPC to a virtualization core. I wouldn't be totally surprised if MS decided not to bother.
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Bitt Faulk
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#277216 - 12/03/2006 20:09
Re: Virtual PC on iBook?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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VirtualPC already has a virtualization core for x86, due to the Windows version existing. Connectix had version 5.2 of the Windows version out around the time they had VPC 6 out on the Mac side, and before Microsoft bought the company. Being that Microsoft has the engineers that know the Mac side of things already, they could probably get a VirtualPC release out for the Intel Macs ahead of VMWare if they wanted to.
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#277217 - 13/03/2006 11:32
Re: Virtual PC on iBook?
[Re: wfaulk]
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/08/2002
Posts: 333
Loc: The Pilbara, Western Australia
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Thanks for the clarification of virtualisation Bitt, as I suspected it appears to be a better solution than emulation.
In terms of usability/speed, would a reasonable order of options (from worst to best) be:
Emulation
Virtualisation
Dual boot?
I suppose it boils down to whether Microsoft can be bothered to change VPC as you said.
If it ends up that Windows can be dual booted without hacks, they won't have to bother. (And I suppose, neither will VMWare.)
_________________________
Peter.
"I spent 90% of my money on women, drink and fast cars. The rest I wasted." - George Best
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#277218 - 13/03/2006 11:43
Re: Virtual PC on iBook?
[Re: drakino]
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/08/2002
Posts: 333
Loc: The Pilbara, Western Australia
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Quote:
Being that Microsoft has the engineers that know the Mac side of things already, they could probably get a VirtualPC release out for the Intel Macs ahead of VMWare if they wanted to.
Yes, perhaps they haven't bothered because they know that it will be possible to dual boot Windows as Bruno alluded to earlier?
_________________________
Peter.
"I spent 90% of my money on women, drink and fast cars. The rest I wasted." - George Best
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#277219 - 13/03/2006 12:02
Re: Virtual PC on iBook?
[Re: pedrohoon]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5681
Loc: London, UK
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Quote:
If it ends up that Windows can be dual booted without hacks, they won't have to bother. (And I suppose, neither will VMWare.)
I'd disagree with "won't have to bother". It might be the case that they "won't bother", but virtualisation is way more useful than dual-boot.
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-- roger
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#277220 - 13/03/2006 12:38
Re: Virtual PC on iBook?
[Re: Roger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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That's right, dual boot requires restarts and each environment it separate from the other. With virtualization you effectively run one environment within the other. That gives you the opportunity to do things like cut and paste (if supported in the client software), possibly share disk resources real-time and of course... Having access to the other OS on-demand without having to restart.
Bruno
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#277221 - 13/03/2006 13:15
Re: Virtual PC on iBook?
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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Virtualization is clearly the "right" way to go versus dual booting for most any application where you want the two sides to interact with one another. VMware and friends offer a "virtual" network interface between your host operating system and the guests. This means you can use standard network file sharing (SMB or whatnot) to copy files back and forth. You can install your "guest" operating system with a relatively small system partition and then get to your home directory on the "host" via the network.
One nice benefit of VMware's virtualization is that making a system backup is painless. Just shut down the guest operating system and make a copy of its disk image. VMware even offers the ability to automatically undo any changes. If you're stuck in a world where your Windows security is a disaster but you can't do all the security fixes, this is ideal.
The only place where dual booting would seem preferable over virtualization is if you're a hard core gamer. The guest operating system isn't going to have access to the full power of your actual graphics card, although you could imagine that graphics card vendors might cooperate with the virtualization people to address this concern...
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#277222 - 13/03/2006 15:44
Re: Virtual PC on iBook?
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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Quote:
although you could imagine that graphics card vendors might cooperate with the virtualization people to address this concern...
Don't count on it. In fact I'd put money against it unless a strong request (and maybe some money) came directly from Apple asking for such extra work to be done.
Bruno
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#277223 - 13/03/2006 16:39
Re: Virtual PC on iBook?
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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VMWare used to (and might still, I don't know) have an option where you could use a real system image on a hard drive as a VMWare image, so that you could both run it under VMWare and reboot into it natively. It was a pain in the ass to set up, but was really snazzy for when VMWare was useful, but you wanted to play games, too.
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Bitt Faulk
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#277224 - 14/03/2006 04:33
Re: Virtual PC on iBook?
[Re: Roger]
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/08/2002
Posts: 333
Loc: The Pilbara, Western Australia
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OK, I stand corrected after reading the replies below.  I assumed there would be a considerable performance drop but not as bad as with emulation.
_________________________
Peter.
"I spent 90% of my money on women, drink and fast cars. The rest I wasted." - George Best
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#277225 - 14/03/2006 12:14
Re: Virtual PC on iBook?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Quote:
VMWare used to (and might still, I don't know) have an option where you could use a real system image on a hard drive as a VMWare image, so that you could both run it under VMWare and reboot into it natively. It was a pain in the ass to set up, but was really snazzy for when VMWare was useful, but you wanted to play games, too.
I tried that before and Windows was really unhappy about all the hardware changing from its point of view. From what I remember, booting the real partition under VMWare worked but when I tried to boot it properly, it promptly died. Gave up after that and haven't tried it since.
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#277226 - 14/03/2006 12:55
Re: Virtual PC on iBook?
[Re: tman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Like I said, it was a real pain in the ass to set up. IIRC, once you got past all the conflicting hardware, it then had both sets of drivers and just disabled the ones that weren't there. I could remember wrong, though. Also, that probably works much less well with XP now that it enforces that hardware change restriction.
At the very least you might be able to set up a partition-based data filesystem that could be shared between separate VMWare and real Windows installations.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#277228 - 17/03/2006 08:34
Re: Virtual PC on iBook?
[Re: loren]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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And it's working really well for a rushed hack. I finally got my MacBook today, and spent part of the afternoon getting Windows on it. For anyone that can follow directions, it goes smoothly.
I have three issues with it right now though that I hope get fixed soon. The sound only works out of the headphone port, the bluetooth card isn't seen by drivers I have tried, and the graphics card won't accept drivers either. Beyond the sluggish GUI, XP is flying on the MacBook. Considering the method to get this working hasn't even been public 24 hours yet, I'm betting most of these issues will be sorted out as more people tinker with it. Now that the contest is over, advancement of how this works should also be quicker.
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#277229 - 17/03/2006 11:44
Re: Virtual PC on iBook?
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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The graphics drivers will likely be the most difficult problem to tackle. It also doesn't seem like it was a rushed hack. I only took a brief look at the files and instructions, but it looks like they did it by changing a fundamental part of the new machines. Namely the boot ROM. The new Mac machines use EFI and it appears the "hacker" used some EFI toolkit and mashed together some BIOS support into a new file (the XOM file you had to install and bless). I didn't look at the slipstreamed changes to teh XP disc, but the boot ROM part has always been the biggest stumbling block. Now for the graphics, the firmware on that is also EFI-specific as well as Mac-centric. It's not compatible with older Macs nor is it compatible with regular Windows. I suspect we'll need to see a replacement firmware for the graphics as well. And if I'm not mistaken, this should be able to be done from a disk-based driver (it's just that no existing driver offers the support/features required as-is). Do ethernet and wifi drivers work properly right now? Does the keyboard light up? Firewire? Mac OS is one of the primary reasons for using a Mac in the first place, but I understand some people will have a desire or rather requirement to pop into Windows once in a while. For me virtualization would be the ideal choice as I'd much rather run one or two Windows apps within the greater Mac environment rather than have to reboot. This would be more like running two distinct computers but with approximately half the weight (and much less hard drive space Unfortunately I also find something about this whole process funny, but I can't say what it is in the public message forum. Damn. Because I'd so very much like to say what it is.  (It's a matter of NDA issues, not language/profanity in case anyone was wondering). Bruno
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#277230 - 17/03/2006 17:45
Re: Virtual PC on iBook?
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Well the reason I say it was a rushed hack is because they modified XP's boot loader to get it working specificially for the contest, instead of taking the more general route that BamBIOS is. BamBios is trying to get any legacy OS running without hacks to the OS directly. They have non EFI versions of Linux working now and are adding what is needed for Windows of any version to work as well. In the long run, I think that solution will be much more flexable. I'm still glad to see the XoM solution work so well though. Now that the contest is over, they can throw the project on Sourceforge and have even more people working on it. Firewire works with no additional drivers. XP sees it and works with it just fine, and it was how I got files into the XP side post install. Ethernet and Wireless also work fine as long as you load the drivers from here. The keyboard does not light up, nor does the brightness controls for the display work. It will simply stay at the brightness level OS X last set it to.
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#277231 - 17/03/2006 21:49
Re: Virtual PC on iBook?
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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I suspect the keyboard and LCD brightness issues can also be tackled by software, even if someone has to make some custom drivers. I'd be very surprised if in the future anyone will even need to run this type of hack to get Windows to install on a Mac..........
Anyway...
Does anyone have a Keyspan remote? (with a Mac and Front Row - Intel Mac or hacked) - I'll start a thread for it.
Bruno
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#277232 - 18/03/2006 09:58
Re: Virtual PC on iBook?
[Re: hybrid8]
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/08/2002
Posts: 333
Loc: The Pilbara, Western Australia
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From a previous post in this thread: Quote:
If you're not in a hurry, wait for the new Intel-based iBooks. The idea with those will be to run a native install of Windows, not VPC. I can tell you that it's pretty much impossible to run Windows on a current Intel-based iMac and Macbook Pro. But I also know a bit about some changes coming down the line and can say it's safe to assume that future machines will make the process easier. I can't say for certain the iBooks will install Windows out of the box, but at worst, like the other machines, you'll be waiting for a Universal Binary of VPC or a solution like WINE. Vista apparently will not support EFI (what Intel Macs use instead of BIOS) out of the box, so current owners won't have any additional luck with that over XP.
The machines will be here before the middle of summer, so you don't have very long to wait. Judging by this year's product releases you can expect the systems to be the same price as those they're replacing.
Bruno
And now this:
Quote:
Unfortunately I also find something about this whole process funny, but I can't say what it is in the public message forum. Damn. Because I'd so very much like to say what it is. (It's a matter of NDA issues, not language/profanity in case anyone was wondering).
Bruno
I could put 2 and 2 together and make 5, and suggest that it *would* be a good idea to wait for the new "iBooks" .
_________________________
Peter.
"I spent 90% of my money on women, drink and fast cars. The rest I wasted." - George Best
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