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#315369 - 21/10/2008 17:29 Re: Paging Joe the Plumber [Re: canuckInOR]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31594
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
The anti-choice/pro-life folks seem not to care about all the zygotes, blastocysts, and embryos that are destroyed by in-vitro clinics, or are dumped after patients have decided that to no longer continue cryopreservation.


Is that actually true? I'd think that people who were picketing abortion clinics would also be equally upset about the above. I wonder if it's simply because they don't know about it.
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#315373 - 21/10/2008 18:25 Re: Paging Joe the Plumber [Re: canuckInOR]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Originally Posted By: canuckinOR
or they're really more concerned about controlling women's reproduction rights, than they are about saving life (which I think is closer to the truth, given the number of pro-life folks who are also pro-death penalty).

I'd also include the fact that they're also usually opposed to sex education.
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#315375 - 21/10/2008 20:22 Re: Paging Joe the Plumber [Re: wfaulk]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
I believe that "purist" anti-abortion activists would be perfectly happy with a definition that says any fertilized egg gains legal protections. If that effective bans several forms of birth control like the pill or IUDs, they'd have no problem with that. In terms of broad-based public opinions, a purist stance would never gain traction, even among otherwise anti-abortion activists. Thus, that side of the aisle is all about compromise.

On the flip side of the aisle, the pro-choice "purists" would be perfectly happy with a definition that says that legal protections don't start until the baby is born, and anything before that is between a woman and her doctor. This argument would similarly fail to gain a majority of public opinion, and thus we see concessions with regard to third trimester abortions.

Ultimately, like everything, the abortion issue boils down to politics. "Right" and "wrong" are all relative to what sort of a compromise can achieve sufficient political traction.

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#315409 - 22/10/2008 13:09 Re: Paging Joe the Plumber [Re: DWallach]
Redrum
old hand

Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
Originally Posted By: DWallach
I believe that "purist" anti-abortion activists would be perfectly happy with a definition that says any fertilized egg gains legal protections. If that effective bans several forms of birth control like the pill or IUDs, they'd have no problem with that. In terms of broad-based public opinions, a purist stance would never gain traction, even among otherwise anti-abortion activists. Thus, that side of the aisle is all about compromise.

On the flip side of the aisle, the pro-choice "purists" would be perfectly happy with a definition that says that legal protections don't start until the baby is born, and anything before that is between a woman and her doctor. This argument would similarly fail to gain a majority of public opinion, and thus we see concessions with regard to third trimester abortions.

Ultimately, like everything, the abortion issue boils down to politics. "Right" and "wrong" are all relative to what sort of a compromise can achieve sufficient political traction.


I thought the standard "pill" prevents the egg's release. So then there would be no "egg + sperm" thus no life.

I know the "morning after pill" is a different story.

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#315411 - 22/10/2008 13:39 Re: Paging Joe the Plumber [Re: Redrum]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31594
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
I thought the standard "pill" prevents the egg's release. So then there would be no "egg + sperm" thus no life.


I'm no expert, but I was always told that the egg was still released, could still be fertilized, but just wouldn't take hold on the uterine wall. I'll look it up...
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#315412 - 22/10/2008 13:40 Re: Paging Joe the Plumber [Re: tfabris]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31594
Loc: Seattle, WA
And apparently I was told wrong. That'll teach me for listening to my parents and teachers.

You were correct, the drug prevents ovulation.
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Tony Fabris

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#315461 - 22/10/2008 22:47 Re: Paging Joe the Plumber [Re: canuckInOR]
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: canuckInOR
IMHO, abortion isn't a problem that will ever be "solved".

Agreed, for all of the reasons you point out.

Around 1970, I was harassed on a daily basis by 3 or 4 women at my work who demanded to know why I wasn't fleeing to Canada...and how could I take the chance that I could be compelled to go far away and kill innocent, full-sized people. I made a deal to stop their harassment. I promised never to harass them about certain choices that I, as a guy, would never have to confront, if they, as women, would return the favor.
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'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

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#315525 - 24/10/2008 15:00 Re: Paging Joe the Plumber [Re: tfabris]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: tfabris
Quote:
The anti-choice/pro-life folks seem not to care about all the zygotes, blastocysts, and embryos that are destroyed by in-vitro clinics, or are dumped after patients have decided that to no longer continue cryopreservation.


Is that actually true? I'd think that people who were picketing abortion clinics would also be equally upset about the above. I wonder if it's simply because they don't know about it.

I can't say that they don't care... that's why I used the phrase "seem not to" -- when's the last time you've heard of an in-vitro place being picketed, or heard the "life begins at conception" argument applied outside the immediate scope of abortion (and maybe stem-cell harvesting)?

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#315536 - 24/10/2008 19:44 Re: Paging Joe the Plumber [Re: canuckInOR]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
There are many, many dimensions to the abortion issue, but for me, it reduces to one simple question.

From the pro-life perspective, abortion is a case of a mother paying a doctor to murder her child. However, most state anti-abortion laws, even in relatively conservative states, punish the doctor who performs the abortion, but not the mother who pays for it.

This is the equivalent of prosecuting the hitman but letting the one who plots and pays for the murder go free. The reason why the states are doing this (even conservative states like South Dakota) is a no-brainer: most of the moderate pro-life constituency would melt away if the mother were held criminally liable for the so-called murder.

If you don't believe me, watch this video of pro-life activists when confronted with the question of what to to the mothers.

Either abortion is murder or it isn't. If it's murder, then every anti-abortion voter must reconcile the concept of what to do (legally) to the mothers.


Edited by tonyc (24/10/2008 19:45)
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#315545 - 25/10/2008 05:27 Re: Paging Joe the Plumber [Re: tonyc]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31594
Loc: Seattle, WA
It's an interesting coincidence that Friday's Straight Dope article was about this topic...
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