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#109588 - 07/08/2002 07:35 An "Empeg Distribution": How far away are we?
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Lately, with all of the cool things people have developed for the empeg, I find myself wondering how large of a leap it would be to start maintaining a full distribution of all things Empeg. Like, I know smu did some work on an upgrade builder/splitter package which, if I remember correctly, allows for creating upgrade files that are compatible with the empeg car upgrade utility. I'm not sure how mature it is yet, but I think it's a great start.

So I think it would be cool for people to start thinking about how we could manage an entire empeg distribution, consisting of the latest releases of:

- the empeg car software
- the hijack kernel
- the various and sundry apps, games, and utilities that we've all developed

Packaging these in an .upgrade file would seem kinda cool, except that we would all lose our config files in /etc.. Unless we had an alternate chrooted environment as has been suggested in the past... Then we'd have to figure out how to allow for upgrades to certain programs without flashing an entire upgrade (I guess debian's dpkg would be a good candidate.)

Of course, there would be some time/effort for whatever person or persons are maintaining the distribution, but I think it would be kinda fun, too. I'd offer whatever services I can... But I guess I'm just fishing for comments on how much work would be needed to create an entire standard Empeg distribution that we could all share. This would make it a lot easier for newbies to get up and running with all of the latest Empeg goodies, and would also make programmers' lives easier due to standard locations for everything.

Anyone have any experience in this arena?
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my empeg stuff

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#109589 - 07/08/2002 07:58 Re: An "Empeg Distribution": How far away are we? [Re: tonyc]
robricc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4911
Loc: Orange County, NY USA
I have been thinking along these lines for the past month or so. It started with the (latest) color screen thread. It seems quite obvious to me that my iPaq would make a killer empeg screen. Not only that, but I'm quite sure it runs the same ARM processor as the HSX-109.

I have little experience with the workings of the empeg's linux install outside of installing Display Server. But I have been thinking of putting a small Debian distro on the iPaq and then trying to get the car software on there. Having an Empeg distro would make this much easier.

I do, however, realize that this would be dangerous to Empeg Ltd. You could basically turn an iPaq with a PCMCIA hard disk into an iPod killer. What I'm trying to say is, I think an empeg disro would be harmful to Empeg Ltd. since there are many devices it could probably run on. I don't think the guys at empeg or SB would be too happy about the distro idea.
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#109590 - 07/08/2002 08:06 Re: An "Empeg Distribution": How far away are we? [Re: tonyc]
anti
member

Registered: 10/07/2000
Posts: 117
Loc: BaWue, Germany, Europe
The first thing I did after getting my empeg was to install debian on it.
Has been running for over two years now.
No problems. And apt-get install works perfectly.

Only annoying thing is to rework the init step everytime I upgrade
the player software,
but that might be solved once the open player is working ... better.

chroot is your friend.

Now if I only could upgrade the RAM
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#109591 - 07/08/2002 08:07 Re: An "Empeg Distribution": How far away are we? [Re: robricc]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Umm... Unless I'm crazy, it seems to me the Empeg car player software has no chance of supporting the iPaq's hardware. I'm pretty sure the empeg display, soundcard, mixer, DSP, etc. are all unique to the Empeg. Since we don't have the source to the player binaries, I don't think there's any way to get them to run on something else, regardless of the fact that they're both ARM platforms.

So I don't see why SonicBlue would have any issue with this...
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my empeg stuff

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#109592 - 07/08/2002 08:11 Re: An "Empeg Distribution": How far away are we? [Re: tonyc]
robricc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4911
Loc: Orange County, NY USA
You don't really need the hardware to be supported directly. Install X windows with a VNC client and XMMS and your interface problems are solved.

If that's out of the question, I'll just shut up now. But, I have been giving this a good amount of though without actually taking action.
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#109593 - 07/08/2002 09:07 Re: An "Empeg Distribution": How far away are we? [Re: tonyc]
rob
carpal tunnel

Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5327
Loc: Cambridge UK
Distributing the player software isn't permitted (this has been discussed before!). I won't rehash the issues now, suffice to say that our proprietry software can only be distributed only by SB.

Of course you can do what you like with the GPL components (within the terms of the license).

Rob

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#109594 - 07/08/2002 09:32 Re: An "Empeg Distribution": How far away are we? [Re: robricc]
tman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
? The player accesses the hardware via the kernel drivers. The player wouldn't initialise properly if the hardware wasn't present. Some of the functionality is built into the hardware so it isn't that easy to rip out. The volume and eq controls for one.

In theory you could make an set of kernel drivers for the iPaq that would emulate the empeg but that would be quite a lot of work...

- Trevor

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#109595 - 07/08/2002 09:50 Re: An "Empeg Distribution": How far away are we? [Re: rob]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Damn.

Okay, then would it be possible for you guys to release a package with just the proprietary stuff (the player software) without the need to flash the kernel, overwrite everyone's root partitions, etc? Something as simple as a tarball of the /empeg directory would probably suffice... This would allow us to keep our environments intact... Of course, it would be understood that this "player only" package is completely unsupported and could be incompatible with our existing setups, but it would allow us a lot of flexibility for laying down a standard empeg distribution/filesystem setup and then putting the player software on as we go.
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my empeg stuff

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#109596 - 07/08/2002 10:48 Re: An "Empeg Distribution": How far away are we? [Re: tonyc]
JBjorgen
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3530
Loc: Columbus, OH
How bout a program that would build a .upgrade file from the official SB .upgrade. It could also allow you to select what apps to install on your empeg. That way, there are no legal issues with distribution. Other successfull programs like 98lite do this to avoid the same issues.

In this application, all that would be required is extracting the player binaries from the official .upgrade file and inserting them into the new distribution. Then compiling a .upgrade file with that distro, all on the end user's computer.

With a .upgrade builder, you can still control the install locations and scripts for all the apps, as well as make it easy for those in linux-newbie-land to upgrade their player.

Do you think the suits at SB would have issues with that Rob?
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#109597 - 07/08/2002 10:53 Re: An "Empeg Distribution": How far away are we? [Re: JBjorgen]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Ahh.. I like the way you're thinking. hm. This would seem to avoid any legal problems, since we wouldn't be "distributing" the player binaries at all. This would be a neat option...
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my empeg stuff

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#109598 - 07/08/2002 10:54 Re: An "Empeg Distribution": How far away are we? [Re: JBjorgen]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Do you think the suits at SB would have issues with that Rob?

OT: Rob, do you wear a suit to work?

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- Tony C
my empeg stuff

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#109599 - 07/08/2002 14:08 Re: An "Empeg Distribution": How far away are we? [Re: JBjorgen]
tman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
Shouldn't be that hard to do... May have a crack at it later (Man, do I have so many on going projects or what? )

- Trevor

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#109600 - 07/08/2002 15:22 Re: An "Empeg Distribution": How far away are we? [Re: tonyc]
msaeger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
you mean he doesn't dress like the avitar picture.
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#109601 - 08/08/2002 03:35 Re: An "Empeg Distribution": How far away are we? [Re: JBjorgen]
rob
carpal tunnel

Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5327
Loc: Cambridge UK
Do you think the suits at SB would have issues with that Rob?

I'm not speaking on behalf of the company here, but I don't see how that could be a problem.

Rob

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#109602 - 08/08/2002 03:37 Re: An "Empeg Distribution": How far away are we? [Re: tonyc]
rob
carpal tunnel

Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5327
Loc: Cambridge UK
Rob, do you wear a suit to work?

Yes, whenever hell freezes over I do.

Rob

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#109603 - 08/08/2002 08:01 Re: An "Empeg Distribution": How far away are we? [Re: rob]
revlmwest
addict

Registered: 05/06/2002
Posts: 497
Loc: Hartsville, South Carolina for...
People who find suits uncomfortable don't own a suit that actually fits. This is only a physical statement however, I'm sure some find suits emotionally uncomfortable.
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#109604 - 08/08/2002 08:28 Offtopic - Suits [Re: revlmwest]
frog51
pooh-bah

Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2089
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
I mostly agree, although when the temperature gets above 18 degrees I am not a fan of clothing in general. Okay, this is pretty rare in Scotland.

Luckily, being a techy type, I'm one of the very few people in my firm who can get away with dressing eccentrically;-)
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MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
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#109605 - 08/08/2002 08:32 Re: Offtopic - Suits [Re: frog51]
revlmwest
addict

Registered: 05/06/2002
Posts: 497
Loc: Hartsville, South Carolina for...
Your post seemed most strange until I realized you were refering to Celsius temperatures.
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#109606 - 08/08/2002 08:37 Re: Offtopic - Suits [Re: revlmwest]
frog51
pooh-bah

Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2089
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
Aye - we'll not be used to that there modern numbers, like degrees Frankenstein.
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MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
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#109607 - 08/08/2002 09:37 Re: Offtopic - Suits [Re: frog51]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
    I mostly agree, although when the temperature gets above 18 degrees I am not a fan of clothing in general. Okay, this is pretty rare in Scotland.
Okay, let's see.

(18 * 9/5) + 32 = 64.4

You get hot at that temperature???? Just for reference, until yesterday, it had been averaging, at a guess, about 92 degrees Fahrenheit outside for at least three weeks, and down to about 72 degrees in the dead of night. Some days more some days less. That works out to ((92 - 32) * 5/9 =) 33.3 Celsius and ((72 - 32) * 5/9 =) 22.2 Celsius.

Sounds like I need to move to Scotland. Of course, it has barely rained here in three weeks, too.


Edited by wfaulk (08/08/2002 09:38)
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#109608 - 08/08/2002 10:02 Re: Offtopic - Suits [Re: wfaulk]
BartDG
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2590
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
Count your blessings.

Over here, we've had a whooping average of about seven (7!) days of sun, with only one day being "scorching hot" this whole summer. Oh, and it rains all the time too. Ugh!

I'm telling you : summers over here are never really all that much, but this really has to be the worst summer I've ever known.
I've never been the travelling type, but now I'm seriously considering a last minute booking. Don't really care where to, it just needs to be sunny over there. (and bearable - so don't try to be smart suggesting the sahara )
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#109609 - 08/08/2002 10:18 Re: Offtopic - Suits [Re: BartDG]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Well, in addition to there not being much to do, it's unbearably hot here, so don't even think about it. I mean, I'd be okay if it were simply 92 degrees all the time if the humidity were reasonable, but the dewpoint is hanging around 72 degrees. I don't know how your weather guys report humidity over there, but that means that dew will start forming (that is, the air becomes completely saturated with water) at 72 degrees. That means that the ``relative humidity'' (the other, semi-bogus term they use here) is about 52%.

Which also means that it's often not sunny. There's so much water in the atmosphere that it's hazy most of the time. Unbearably bright, but hazy.
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#109610 - 08/08/2002 10:39 Re: Offtopic - Suits [Re: wfaulk]
BartDG
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2590
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
Ah, I know what you mean. We have the same weathertype over here.
When (and I do say "when" ) it gets hot, it's usually not "dry heat". No, it's more the "every movement you make will make you sweat like a pig"-kind of heat.
Because of this, temperatures of 30-35 centigrade are already unbearable.

I really hate that kind of warmth. But I've gotten so sick and tired of all the rain I've seen lately, I would do almost anything to see the sun for a change. Even if that means very humid heat.
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#109611 - 08/08/2002 10:43 Re: Offtopic - Suits [Re: BartDG]
pca
old hand

Registered: 20/07/1999
Posts: 1094
Loc: UK
I could highly recomment Tasmania, aside from the fact it's the middle of winter now and I believe the weather isn't much better. That said, when I went in February/April this year (summer for them upside down folk), it was fantastic. The hottest it got was about 35 deg. C, but that coincided with a humidity of about 23% so was quite bearable. It averaged about 27 degrees with 35-40% humidity almost all the time I was there, and the beaches were fantastic. Food's nice, too.

I find that I feel too hot in the UK when it goes above about 18-19 degrees, but I'm told I'm wierd For heaven's sake, just because I consider a shirt-sleeve environment to be 13-15 degrees, and sleep best when it's about 10 or so, people call me strange! They should try coolish weather, like when I was fixing my car in my families garage in ontario last christmas. It was about -8, and after 10 minutes of heaving on the wheelbrace I had to take my coat off because I was sweating to death.

pca
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#109612 - 08/08/2002 17:12 Re: An "Empeg Distribution": How far away are we? [Re: revlmwest]
rob
carpal tunnel

Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5327
Loc: Cambridge UK
Absolutely, I wasn't thinking of physical issues.

Rob

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#109613 - 09/08/2002 01:45 Re: Offtopic - Suits [Re: BartDG]
frog51
pooh-bah

Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2089
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
Just had a chat with may father, who is currently flying oil workers around Algeria and he says it's 50 degrees where he is (that's 50 centigrade) and 62 degrees centigrade about 70 miles south of him.

Now that is scary.
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Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
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#109614 - 09/08/2002 04:00 Re: Offtopic - Suits [Re: frog51]
BartDG
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2590
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
Wow! Now that's just a little bit too much! There's not much use in travelling to see the sun and when you get there having to hide fom it all day.

Actually, Tazzy as PCA describes it sounds quite tempting. (thanks for the hint Patrick!). I really must remember that next winter. It's one of those places people over here normally don't consider for their travels.
Which makes it all the more tempting because I believe that that means it won't be infected with lots of tourists (yet?)
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#109615 - 09/08/2002 06:10 Re: Offtopic - Suits [Re: BartDG]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Damn you people! Get out of my thread!

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- Tony C
my empeg stuff

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#109616 - 09/08/2002 10:07 Re: Offtopic - Suits [Re: BartDG]
pca
old hand

Registered: 20/07/1999
Posts: 1094
Loc: UK
It's one of those places people over here normally don't consider for their travels

I had a long chat with a fellow who was on the local tourist board down south in Tasmania, and he said that for some reason, while lots of americans go to Australia, less than 4% end up in Tas. That compares to more than 40% of both the british and the germans, both of whom go there more than any other nationality. He had no idea why.

pca
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#109617 - 09/08/2002 12:57 Re: Offtopic - Suits [Re: tonyc]
BartDG
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2590
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
Damn you people! Get out of my thread!

But it's so nice and comfy over here!

That's what you get when people start talking about the weather!
Human nature I guess...
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