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These people, the ones that make sure you know that they're Christian, their faith is, at best, secondary to feeling superior. While I'm sure that they're in the minority, it's a very common attitude and it sure doesn't feel like a minority. (BTW, no one I can think of on this board seems to have this attitude.)

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I mean, there's one school of thought which says all politicians are corrupt (or at least the successful ones must be in order to be successful), and that kind of corruption is not truly Christian.

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There's also the school of thought that says people can do bad things, or be deluded or power-mad, all in the name of God, because they either don't understand the scripture or they twist its meaning to serve their ends.

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I think that's a very extraordinary claim, so I'd be very interested in any details you could provide regarding that.

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It sounds to me as if you're choosing him simply because he claims to have the same religion you do.

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What are the things you see Bush as having done that are not Christian?

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I still don't see how you can possibly support the man.

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The one whose actions match what you believe in.

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I am worry about a commander in chief who does something because he knows that it is what God wants him to do.

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Let me regroup and respond in a bit... I'm not online during the day anymore, so that makes it hard.

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I do believe we should have gone into Iraq.

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I honestly don't think Bush is evil, either. I think he's naive, petulant, has a competitive streak a mile long, and as a result, is easily manipulated by his staff as a result. I think he's in waaaay over his head.

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I'm sure he's a very personable fellow, and that I'd like him if we had met before he got into politics.

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I am positive that Bush's faith is a fraud.

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Christian-owned plumbing.

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That comment, and other about Americans who support Bush as being "brainwashed" implying that they are of weak mind is why most conservatives view many liberals as elitists.

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It's possible to be Christian and liberal.

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Hearken back to the Crusades for an example of where that mindset can lead one...

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"I believe God want's me to be president..."

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"I believe God want's me to be president..."

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This is the only part of your post that doesn't make sense to me: how can anyone agree with Bush's motives and ideology, when Bush hasn't made it clear what those motives and ideology are?

I think it's pretty clear that Bush comes from a position of conservative faith. I see in many cases how his faith drives his decisions, so I can say with some amount of confidence that our sense of morality comes from the same source.

I was surprised to read Bitt's answer to this, because it's pretty much what I think of Bush. I have a fairly conservative upbringing -- I was raised Christian, in a family where abstinence was the rule of the day when it came to sex, drugs, and rock-n-roll. Though I have a liberal political viewpoint, my personal choices are still extremely conservative. Much of my morality is grounded on teachings from the Bible, though I have found alternate justifications for that morality that don't require the Biblical teachings. That's part of what suggests, to me, that they are a reasonably valid set of morals. That said, like Bitt, I think that Bush isn't being completely forthright about his religion, though, unlike Bitt, I'm a bit more conflicted. In some ways, I think he's faking it -- his actions don't say "I believe in Christ's teachings" to me. In other ways, I agree with Tony (I think it was who mentioned it), in that he may be doing what he thinks is the most Christian, but then with quotes like "God wants me to be president", I think he's somewhat delusional. So I'm stuck between "faker" and "nutcase" when it comes to Bush's religion.

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Politically I find myself somewhat to the left of Bush and most Republicans (I don't support the gay marriage ammendment, I don't think their should be public prayer in school, etc.), but because we share similar belief systems Bush's views are closer to mine than Kerry or just about any other Democrat.

It sounds like we probably share a great deal in common, barring the fact that you think Bush shares a similar belief system with you.

I apologize for not being able to find the original website for this, but I think this is very truthful, even though it's a parody.

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Not that a person with similar faith can't be a Democrat, but usually they choose not to be because many of the party's ideals are just not consistent with our belief system.

I dunno. I feel the exact opposite -- that Christian ideals are *more* consistent with the Dem platform, than the Republican platform. Christ was about charity, forgiveness, good stewardship, uplifting the poor and middle class, etc, and I just don't see that reflected in the Republican platform to the same extent.

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I've said before that I don't feel well represented by these candidates, and that's why I'm so frustrated by the system at the moment.

Heh. I think this statement would resonate with the majority of the country. I don't think Kerry is really representative of my ideals, either.

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I should note that one allegation that is made over and over again that really bugs me is how Republicans say they want to spend less but then end up spending more. This bugs me because it's true and that is truly frustrating. I do think we ought to spend less in taxes and on government programs like the Republicans say, but they don't seem to know how to follow through on that. At least Democratic leaders have some integrity on this point by not claming the can do more with less.

Agreed. Though I have no degree in economics, I think fiscal conservativeness is the only way one can create a healthy economy. You can't spend your way out of debt -- that's been proven time and time again on a personal level, and I don't follow the logic that suggests otherwise. Where I don't agree with the Republicans on this point is that they seem to think that privatization is the key to spending less. I think when one goes down that road, the end result is a pure focus on the profit side, and none on the service, so if the service isn't profitable (such as, say, a hospital), then it goes away, leaving nothing. What's really needed is more efficiency, and less pork (and pretty much every polititian is complicit in this).

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So this is all what I meant by being a weak supporter of Bush.

I can agree with the logic, though I don't agree with your initial premises.

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I do believe we should have gone into Iraq.

Why? And do you acknowledge any downside?

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Christ was about charity, forgiveness, good stewardship, uplifting the poor and middle class, etc,

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I included one snippet from Bitt because it "said it all" to me: Christian-owned plumbing. I have encountered several merchants (somebody who I was going to have do some canvas for my boat...a moving company...a painting outfit) who gave me an estimate for work and their business card. I looked at the business card and there was that Christian fish (somewhat disguised in one case). I did not do business with them and I let them know why. What does the fish say? It says "You can trust me, I'm a Christian!" I can not help but infer what else it says -- it says "you just can't trust those other folks (like Jim the atheist!) as much". That pisses me off. And yes, when I see those cheap plastic fish on the backs of cars, I can't help but think the fish is singing "I'm going to Heaven! I'm going to Heaven!" And completely remarkable, the counterstrike Jesus fish eating the Darwin fish. What's up with that? Not very Christian if you ask me!

OK, so I'm an elitist.

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It says "You can trust me, I'm a Christian!"

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t's amazing how politically correct it is now to attack Christians.

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I don't think Kerry is really representative of my ideals, either.

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I think fiscal conservativeness is the only way one can create a healthy economy. You can't spend your way out of debt -- that's been proven time and time again on a personal level, and I don't follow the logic that suggests otherwise. Where I don't agree with the Republicans on this point is that they seem to think that privatization is the key to spending less.

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Substitute the Christian symbols for anything else and I hope you'll see how prejudice you are being.

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At the same time, what if someone pointed out that their business was "white owned"?

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....I have never had a car salesman tell me that "You can trust this dealership because they are good Italians!"

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I have the same attitude on this that Jim does, and you raise a good point. (Other than using the wrong word; it should be "prejudiced".)

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But being Christian and promoting that fact are choices they made, and I can just as easily choose not to use them.

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At the same time, what if someone pointed out that their business was "white owned"?

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No one with a Christian symbol on their car is saying "trust me or whatever because I'm Christian"

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Well, his initial complaint was about the symbols on the business cards, and only peripherally related to bumper stickers. But I think that "trust me because I'm Christian" might be precisely what they're trying to say with the business cards. Why else would you put a symbol of your faith on your business card, unless you were specifically trying to increase responses from others of the same faith?

You claim that expressing disdain for this practice makes him prejudiced. But think about it... The prejudice is actually there on the business card itself. It's the guy who chose to put the fish on the card that's prejudiced. He's saying, "I specifically want to do business with, and increase customer response from, others of my faith."

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But you are making judgements on someone's intentions and views based solely on their faith. Text book example of prejudice.

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Again, if someone claims their business was black owned and operated are we all to assume that they "specifically want to do business with, and increase customer response from, others of their ethnicity?"

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Yes, that's exactly what I expect we are all to assume. What else should we infer from that?